The Conclusion of Acts 15 !

[Ryan]

Please view this clip from there website that they posted on you tube.

The conclusion of the matter in Acts 15.



[/img] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ih1Hhuc-Ypw# [/img]

Thoughts?


JLB

Thank you. I will watch it when I get home and respond later. As well, here is the link I found on a teaching on circumcision on their website. I am posting it blindly and have not yet read or studied it.

https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/...bb1a9/Did_Paul_Teach_Against_Circumcision.pdf

As I said, there is nothing wrong with this teaching and it highlights who and what the circumcision group were trying to accomplish. It puts the texts back into the context of the issues facing the first century believers. As I said, good, solid teachings grounded in the scriptures. There is nothing there that highlights these false allegations you are asserting. I dont believe you can provide the exact time when they say one must be a Jew or be circumcised as you stated. And the link I provided, again there is nothing that is unscriptural in that article.

I'm glad I was baptized on the weekend because this is directly related to circumcision. Could I have lived the rest of my life and not been baptized, and would my eternal destiny have been altered if I didn't? Likewise with circumcision. Could I go my whole life without being circumcised and would my eternal destiny be altered if I didn't? You know the answer, and the article addresses this very point. And for the record, the answer is no to both questions.

Ryan,

I am glad you were baptized as well. You followed the prompting of The Spirit and obeyed. That is awesome.

It just doesn't get any better that that.

May The Lord bless you and keep you. May The Lord make His Face shine upon you and be gracious to you; The Lord lift up His countenance upon you, And give you peace.


JLB

Thank you for the Aaronic blessing. I love this prayer and it greatly blessed me.

I would rather leave on a high note, then a low note JLB. So I will. This Jerusalem Council organization of Messianic believers is NOT the governing body of Messianics worldwide. They are a very, very small group who I believe have some suspect interpretations of the Good Word. When they say I MUST be circumcised, that raises eyebrows and flags. I have to make that clear.

Messianic Judaism is not the enemy. We are fellow brothers and sisters in Christ. Why can't we all learn from each other instead of our hackles being raised when you or I have a different interpretation of the scriptures? I did not come on to debate scriptures as we have already done that once or twice, but merely to correct some misinformation about Messianic Judaism as a whole. Are there fringe groups? Sure. But as a whole we have the same Messiah, same Rabbi, same Savior, and we are all saved the same way as the next believer.

Blessings and Shalom with you
Ryan

 

[Ryan]

I go my whole life without being circumcised and would my eternal destiny be altered if I didn't? You know the answer, and the article addresses this very point. And for the record, the answer is no to both questions.

Wow? Im I reading this correct? That circumcision is required?

I must not understand what you are saying Ryan?

Required for salvation? No, of course not. Read the link I provided, and it answers this very question.

 

[Ryan]

I go my whole life without being circumcised and would my eternal destiny be altered if I didn't? You know the answer, and the article addresses this very point. And for the record, the answer is no to both questions.

Wow? Im I reading this correct? That circumcision is required?

I must not understand what you are saying Ryan?

Required for salvation? No, of course not. Read the link I provided, and it answers this very question.

Correction, as John 8:32 pointed out, circumcision of the heart is required.

 

[John 8:32]

I go my whole life without being circumcised and would my eternal destiny be altered if I didn't? You know the answer, and the article addresses this very point. And for the record, the answer is no to both questions.

Wow? Im I reading this correct? That circumcision is required?

I must not understand what you are saying Ryan?

Required for salvation? No, of course not. Read the link I provided, and it answers this very question.

Correction, as John 8:32 pointed out, circumcision of the heart is required.

We agree on much, I think we agree that many of the ceremonial practices of the Old Covenant have been superceded by spiritual practices of the New Covenant. Circumcision is just one of many.

 

[JLB]

I go my whole life without being circumcised and would my eternal destiny be altered if I didn't? You know the answer, and the article addresses this very point. And for the record, the answer is no to both questions.

Wow? Im I reading this correct? That circumcision is required?

I must not understand what you are saying Ryan?

Required for salvation? No, of course not. Read the link I provided, and it answers this very question.

Paul's admonition to the Galatians who were Already saved.

Paul does not differentiate the motive in his letter when he assigns a curse to those who are teaching Gentile Christians to be Circumcised.

For whatever reason a person may give whether its because the want to feel more spiritual or they think its putting the finishing touches on there salvation or for whatever reason they may give, Paul makes no such distinction.

He just simply states the following - becoming Circumcised as a part of trying to keep the law is turning away from The Lord.

As he writes -

The Letter to the Galatians: The main point

Chapter 1 -

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. 10 For do I now persuade men, or God? Or do I seek to please men? For if I still pleased men, I would not be a bond-servant of Christ. 11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.

Chapter 2 -

1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

11 Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, "If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you compel Gentiles to live as Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."


The main point of Paul's letter to the Galatians was to correct them from the behavior of false brethren who were trying to bring these Gentile Christians into bondage by getting them to be Circumcised and keep Moses law.

Look at the language that Paul uses -


6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel...


Paul called this "turning away from Him".

Paul called this "a different Gospel".

Paul called this "perverting the Gospel".


But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Paul said those who preach this Gospel are cursed.

Paul said those who do this are trying to bring you into bondage.


Paul's disciple Titus, who was Gentile was not Circumcised.


JLB

 

[smaller]

Some believers eventually figure out that Paul factually 'double dealt' the Law.

In Galatians for example Paul states that believers are not under the Law, but there is always a very large condition to that well worn axiom, 'if you are led of the Spirit.'

In Galatians 5 Paul also utterly condemns works of the flesh, which are in essence, violations of the Law done by Christians.

That's double dealing. I don't say double dealing in a bad sense. I'm entirely OK with the Law being against murder, theft or sin in general. Why would any believer have difficulty with the Law being against sin and evil? It makes no sense to be 'for' those workings as a believer.

ALL the difficulty of this entire topic matter of Law and Grace is when we realize that we all have sin, and that the Law, Gods Words is against that working in us all. There is no way to avoid this conclusion of the Law. And there is no making that working LEGAL or UNDER GRACE.

We are not 'under the law' when engaged in works of the Spirit only because, as Paul iterates also in Galatians, there is no Law against doing good.

The ultimate conclusion in these matters will inevitably land on the fact that we are BOTH under the curse of the Law, yet under Grace.

Trying to land on one side or the other 'in our entirety' and 'current state of being' does not and cannot work nor will it nor was it ever intended to work.

Hence the perpetual tensions between the parties. It's totally unnecessary when just a little honesty is applied.

The Legalist camp wants to make their indwelling sin and evil present legal, which is entirely laughable.

and the Grace camp wants their indwelling sin and evil present entirely under Grace, which is equally laughable.

Both parties actually have a virtually identical problem don't they?

s

 

[Deborah13]

Both parties actually have a virtually identical problem don't they?

Legalism v Grace

Seems to me the missing element is faith.

Faith to believe in God's mercy and grace.
Faith to believe in obedience to do/not do what He calls us to do.

 

[smaller]

Both parties actually have a virtually identical problem don't they?

Legalism v Grace

Seems to me the missing element is faith.

Faith to believe in God's mercy and grace.
Faith to believe in obedience to do/not do what He calls us to do.

I don't have the faith to believe the evil present/indwelling sin I admittedly have is either under Grace or Legally obedient.

What can I say?

my bad?

s

 

[Deborah13]

Both parties actually have a virtually identical problem don't they?

Legalism v Grace

Seems to me the missing element is faith.

Faith to believe in God's mercy and grace.
Faith to believe in obedience to do/not do what He calls us to do.

I don't have the faith to believe the evil present/indwelling sin I admittedly have is either under Grace or Legally obedient.

What can I say?

my bad?

s

I Have to have the faith to believe that my " evil present/indwelling sin " is covered by the blood of Jesus, by God's grace (unearned favor) or I would just give up. I cannot of myself ever "be perfect as the Father is perfect" or in other terms "be righteous as He is righteous".

Evil dwells in my fleshy soul even as the Spirit works to cleanse me from all unrighteousness.

You bad? :o I don't think so.

 

[smaller]

Both parties actually have a virtually identical problem don't they?

Legalism v Grace

Seems to me the missing element is faith.

Faith to believe in God's mercy and grace.
Faith to believe in obedience to do/not do what He calls us to do.

I don't have the faith to believe the evil present/indwelling sin I admittedly have is either under Grace or Legally obedient.

What can I say?

my bad?

s

I Have to have the faith to believe that my " evil present/indwelling sin " is covered by the blood of Jesus, by God's grace (unearned favor) or I would just give up. I cannot of myself ever "be perfect as the Father is perfect" or in other terms "be righteous as He is righteous".

Evil dwells in my fleshy soul even as the Spirit works to cleanse me from all unrighteousness.

You bad? :o I don't think so.

Yes, that would be a typical grace understanding.

When it is said that it is covered I doubt very very much that any grace adherent would equate that to mean sin is OK.

Reason would lead that if sin is not OK under grace, then it is not covered.

Some see numerous dangers in that sight that sin is OK i.e. covered under grace because that can not be the case.

Paul was quite clear that 'God in Christ condemned sin in the flesh.' and 'shall we sin under Grace? God forbid.'

and fwiw, there are scriptural solutions to this issue.

In Paul's depiction of himself we see his factual condition here:

The blue is Paul. The evil present in red is with Paul but is not Paul or he would have simply said "I am evil." He didn't. And I'm quite glad he didn't as who could believe such a person?

Romans 7:21
I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

We can see the same thing with Paul here, identical to the above exercise:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In either example above it is an entirely fair and balanced sight to see that THE RED is not under Grace, but exposed, aroused, provoked and entirely condemned under Law.

And that the BLUE is not under Law, but under Grace.

Problem solved.

But the RED within all of us will not accept that solution.

s

 

[Deborah13]

In either example above it is an entirely fair and balanced sight to see that THE RED is not under Grace, but exposed, aroused, provoked and entirely condemned under Law.

And that the BLUE is not under Law, but under Grace.

Problem solved.

But the RED within all of us will not accept that solution.

I don't have a problem with this solution if I'm understanding you correctly.

20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, 23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Grace never says it's OK to sin. Grace says, IF we do sin, we have a mediator (an attorney).

The Law services a righteous purpose, it condemns the sin but it cannot condemn the Blue man.
The red evil (the law exposes) may come from one's own imperfect fleshy soul or may be from the one who buffets.

 

[George Muller]

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Sin only has power over those who do not understand Gods power.
"for you shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free"

The only reason a Christian sins is because they fail to walk in the power of Gods grace.

 

[Deborah13]

The only reason a Christian sins is because they fail to walk in the power of Gods grace

I can agree with that simple statement as being true.

 

[JLB]

There very way of righteousness, of Justification, of being cleansed of sin and therefore free from the curse of sin is turning to the Lord.

So when someone "turns from the Lord", it is just the opposite.

as it is written -

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:28-31

How do we insult the Spirit of Grace. By adding portions of the law of Moses to our salvation by Grace.

The very definition of an insult to the Spirit of Grace is to add to the Grace of God.

Paul describes it as "turning from the Lord".

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

By Paul's language we see that these Gentile Christians, who were already saved, were being influenced by those "false brethren" from Jerusalem, who wanted to bring these Gentile Brothers into bondage.

And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage. Galatians 2:4

Paul called believing Pharisee's who also kept the law of Moses, false brethren.

Again, these Galatians were already Christians, so there were not doing this to become saved.

By becoming Circumcised and keeping the law of Moses, they were turning away from the Lord.

The excuse as some some try to use - "They were doing this to be saved", is false.

They were already saved. The false brethren were trying to bring them into bondage by mixing the law of Moses with the Christian faith.

Trying to keep feast days and Circumcision, and Sabbaths [as outlined in the law] and adhering to Mosaic food laws... is turning away from the Lord.

This is insulting the Spirit of grace.


JLB

 

[Elijah674]

There very way of righteousness, of Justification, of being cleansed of sin and therefore free from the curse of sin is turning to the Lord.

So when someone "turns from the Lord", it is just the opposite.

as it is written -

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:28-31

How do we insult the Spirit of Grace. By adding portions of the law of Moses to our salvation by Grace.

The very definition of an insult to the Spirit of Grace is to add to the Grace of God.

Paul describes it as "turning from the Lord".

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

By Paul's language we see that these Gentile Christians, who were already saved, were being influenced by those "false brethren" from Jerusalem, who wanted to bring these Gentile Brothers into bondage.

And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage. Galatians 2:4

Paul called believing Pharisee's who also kept the law of Moses, false brethren.

Again, these Galatians were already Christians, so there were not doing this to become saved.

By becoming Circumcised and keeping the law of Moses, they were turning away from the Lord.

The excuse as some some try to use - "They were doing this to be saved", is false.

They were already saved. The false brethren were trying to bring them into bondage by mixing the law of Moses with the Christian faith.

Trying to keep feast days and Circumcision, and Sabbaths [as outlined in the law] and adhering to Mosaic food laws... is turning away from the Lord.

This is insulting the Spirit of grace.


JLB

Done with an excellent understanding! The only thing changing by the death of our Master were the things pointing to His death. Act 15 has not only circumcism but all of the Mosaic laws that Gal. 3:19 had been added on prior to Christ's death. (and stored in the 'side' of His Eternal Covenant)

No way could God change His Royal law! For that is the reason for Christ's death!

--Elijah

 

[Joe Domingo]

Trying to keep feast days and Circumcision, and Sabbaths [as outlined in the
law] and adhering to Mosaic food laws... is turning away from the
Lord.

I'll ride with this if I cannot observe Shabbat in any way, I'll ride with this if all Christians will stop making Sunday some kind of day of worship. If they can do that and every day is truly the same, then I'm down for the cause. Otherwise if Christians cannot let go of Sunday, then I cannot let go of Shabbat.

For in the same way that someone might think that I am trying to subvert them to a Law by observing the Sabbath, so it is for me for someone to try to subvert me to observe Sunday.

Another way to understand my sentiment is like this ...

If I had the pleasure of meeting anyone on this or any other forum or any Christian anywhere and they invite me to their service and local congregation ... then it cannot be on Sunday, as I don't observe it unto the Lord, like Paul says.

 

[George Muller]

There very way of righteousness, of Justification, of being cleansed of sin and therefore free from the curse of sin is turning to the Lord.

So when someone "turns from the Lord", it is just the opposite.

as it is written -

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:28-31

How do we insult the Spirit of Grace. By adding portions of the law of Moses to our salvation by Grace.

The very definition of an insult to the Spirit of Grace is to add to the Grace of God.

Paul describes it as "turning from the Lord".

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

By Paul's language we see that these Gentile Christians, who were already saved, were being influenced by those "false brethren" from Jerusalem, who wanted to bring these Gentile Brothers into bondage.

And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage. Galatians 2:4

Paul called believing Pharisee's who also kept the law of Moses, false brethren.

Again, these Galatians were already Christians, so there were not doing this to become saved.

By becoming Circumcised and keeping the law of Moses, they were turning away from the Lord.

The excuse as some some try to use - "They were doing this to be saved", is false.

They were already saved. The false brethren were trying to bring them into bondage by mixing the law of Moses with the Christian faith.

Trying to keep feast days and Circumcision, and Sabbaths [as outlined in the law] and adhering to Mosaic food laws... is turning away from the Lord.

This is insulting the Spirit of grace.


JLB

So its just part of the law? or all the law?
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

 

[Elijah674]

There very way of righteousness, of Justification, of being cleansed of sin and therefore free from the curse of sin is turning to the Lord.

So when someone "turns from the Lord", it is just the opposite.

as it is written -

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:28-31

How do we insult the Spirit of Grace. By adding portions of the law of Moses to our salvation by Grace.

The very definition of an insult to the Spirit of Grace is to add to the Grace of God.

Paul describes it as "turning from the Lord".

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

By Paul's language we see that these Gentile Christians, who were already saved, were being influenced by those "false brethren" from Jerusalem, who wanted to bring these Gentile Brothers into bondage.

And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage. Galatians 2:4

Paul called believing Pharisee's who also kept the law of Moses, false brethren.

Again, these Galatians were already Christians, so there were not doing this to become saved.

By becoming Circumcised and keeping the law of Moses, they were turning away from the Lord.

The excuse as some some try to use - "They were doing this to be saved", is false.

They were already saved. The false brethren were trying to bring them into bondage by mixing the law of Moses with the Christian faith.

Trying to keep feast days and Circumcision, and Sabbaths [as outlined in the law] and adhering to Mosaic food laws... is turning away from the Lord.

This is insulting the Spirit of grace.


JLB

So its just part of the law? or all the law?
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Hey, does the law save one? Does the 7Th Day Sabbath save [ANYONE????] Come on, get real! It IS CHRIST THE LORD THAT SAVES! All of the prophets 'see it this way'. 1 Cor. 14:32 [[[ALL!]]]

Your friend Elijah

 

[George Muller]

There very way of righteousness, of Justification, of being cleansed of sin and therefore free from the curse of sin is turning to the Lord.

So when someone "turns from the Lord", it is just the opposite.

as it is written -

28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people." 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Hebrews 10:28-31

How do we insult the Spirit of Grace. By adding portions of the law of Moses to our salvation by Grace.

The very definition of an insult to the Spirit of Grace is to add to the Grace of God.

Paul describes it as "turning from the Lord".

6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:6-9

By Paul's language we see that these Gentile Christians, who were already saved, were being influenced by those "false brethren" from Jerusalem, who wanted to bring these Gentile Brothers into bondage.

And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage. Galatians 2:4

Paul called believing Pharisee's who also kept the law of Moses, false brethren.

Again, these Galatians were already Christians, so there were not doing this to become saved.

By becoming Circumcised and keeping the law of Moses, they were turning away from the Lord.

The excuse as some some try to use - "They were doing this to be saved", is false.

They were already saved. The false brethren were trying to bring them into bondage by mixing the law of Moses with the Christian faith.

Trying to keep feast days and Circumcision, and Sabbaths [as outlined in the law] and adhering to Mosaic food laws... is turning away from the Lord.

This is insulting the Spirit of grace.


JLB

So its just part of the law? or all the law?
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.
12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

Hey, does the law save one? Does the 7Th Day Sabbath save [ANYONE????] Come on, get real! It IS CHRIST THE LORD THAT SAVES! All of the prophets 'see it this way'. 1 Cor. 14:32 [[[ALL!]]]

Your friend Elijah

My friend Elijah, I do not understand your point? I agree Christ alone saved us from sin and the strength of sin is the law.

 

[JLB]

Trying to keep feast days and Circumcision, and Sabbaths [as outlined in the
law] and adhering to Mosaic food laws... is turning away from the
Lord.

I'll ride with this if I cannot observe Shabbat in any way, I'll ride with this if all Christians will stop making Sunday some kind of day of worship. If they can do that and every day is truly the same, then I'm down for the cause. Otherwise if Christians cannot let go of Sunday, then I cannot let go of Shabbat.

For in the same way that someone might think that I am trying to subvert them to a Law by observing the Sabbath, so it is for me for someone to try to subvert me to observe Sunday.

Another way to understand my sentiment is like this ...

If I had the pleasure of meeting anyone on this or any other forum or any Christian anywhere and they invite me to their service and local congregation ... then it cannot be on Sunday, as I don't observe it unto the Lord, like Paul says.

Saturday is a good day to rest. The Sabbath was introduced in the garden and will be fulfilled when Jesus returns and we are resurrected with Glorified immortal bodies that will never die.

At that time we will have entered His rest.

Taking a day off is a good way to show this hope that we have of a future rest.


Now if you are trying to observe the Sabbath by not kindling a fire or wearing some Jewish costume or any other requirements that are prescribed in the Law, then you are heading into bondage.

Observe your day of rest as unto the Lord and be at peace.

Don't worry about what everyone else does or says or thinks.

Be at peace.

as it is written -

One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. Romans 14:5

and again

Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. Romans 14:22


JLB