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[_ Old Earth _] The creation of light

lordkalvan said:
Indeed, the best evidence available indicates that the annual population growth rate in Dynastic Egypt, one of the most advanced societies of this time, was less than 0.1%.

Year after year -- or decade after decade CENSUS data is needed to show population growth rates.

Is this where you claim to have them for Egypt 2200 B.C??

Dating of ancient cities is not accurate "to the year" or decade in most cases.

The global flood story of Ebla confirms the fact that early people after the flood -- all knew of a global flood. The very thing just-say-nay groups are most anxious to deny as we are told in 2Peter 3. Peter says in fact that they are "willingly ignorant" of the fact of the global flood.

Are you familiar with the RATE project and the fact that dates for igneous rock only decades old was found to test many thousands of years old -- even millions of years old?

Your speculative assumptions seem to occupy all of your time -- while the confirming evidence is all conveniently "ignored".

How "instructive".

Bob
 
From your own site reference -- never quoted in your "just-say-nay" arguments--

Well, the discovery of the Ebla archive in northern Syria in the 1970s has shown the Biblical writings concerning the Patriarchs to be viable. During the excavations of the palace in 1975, the excavators found a large library (royal archive room), filled with tablets dating from 2400 -2300 BC.

Nearly 15,000 tablets and fragments were found, but when joined together they will constitute about 2,500 tablets. These tablets demonstrate that personal and place names in the Patriarchal accounts are genuine. For years, critics said that the name 'Canaan' was used incorrectly in the early chapters of the Bible, that the term was never used at this time in history, proving that it was a late insertion and that the earliest books were not written in the times that are described. But in the Ebla tablets, the word “Canaan†does appear, contrary to the critics claim. The tablets proved that the term was actually used in ancient Syria during the time in which the Old Testament was written.

http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/T ... ologically

Another Bible confirming detail -- taken from your OWN site but never referenced by you in your just-say-nay arguments that followed --

In addition, critics also claimed that the word 'Tehom' ('the deep' in Genesis 1:2) was also a late addition demonstrating the late writing of the creation story. But 'Tehom' was part of the vocabulary at Ebla as well, in use some 800 years before Moses! In fact, there is a creation record in the Ebla Tablets that is remarkably similar to the Genesis account! In addition this, the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah (once thought to be pure fiction) are also identified in the Ebla tablets, as well as the city of Haran. This latter city is described in Genesis as the city of Abram’s father, Terah. Prior to this discovery, ‘scholars’ doubted the presence of the ancient city.

And yes... there is much more!!

Bob
 
And of course the site that YOU referenced here - but never quoted also gives us other finds in antiquity beyond Ebla that confirm the Bible accounts.

But in addition to the Ebla Tablets, other archaeological findings have also confirmed the ancient truths and customs reflected in the stories of the Patriarchs. These cultural customs have also been confirmed in clay tablets found in digs in the cities of Nuzi and Mari. Archaeological digs in the city of Bogazkoy, Turkey have confirmed the existence of the Hittites (who were once thought to be a Biblical legend) until their capital and records were discovered! In a similar way, many thought the Biblical references to Solomon's wealth were greatly exaggerated. But recovered records from the past show that wealth in antiquity was concentrated with the king and Solomon's prosperity was entirely feasible.
http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/T ... ologically

But "of course" we would not expect our atheist friends to notice these inconvenient details -- and it was a fun exercise to see if you too would ignore them.

Thanks for helping demonstrate the point - again.

Bob
 
As for Daniel and the 4 empires predictions and timeline he gives at the time of Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem

Another king who was in doubt was Belshazzar, king of Babylon, named in Daniel 5. According to non-Biblical recorded history, the last king of Babylon was Nabonidus. But Tablets have been found showing that Belshazzar was Nabonidus' son who served as coregent in Babylon. So, Belshazzar could offer to make Daniel 'third highest ruler in the kingdom' (as recorded in Daniel 5:16) for reading the handwriting on the wall, and this would have been the highest available position. Here, once again we see the 'eye-witness' nature of the Biblical record. Once again, archeology has confirmed the Biblical record.

Belshazar Tablet

But it's not just kings and well known figures who have been verified by the archeology over the years! There are thousands of 'lesser known' and relatively unimportant characters in the Bible who could easily be overlooked if not for the fact that archeology continues to verify them. One such person is Nebo-Sarsekim. Nebo-Sarsekim is mentioned in the Bible in chapter 39 of the Book of Jeremiah. According to Jeremiah, this man was Nebuchadnezzar II's "chief officer" and was with him at the siege of Jerusalem in 587 BC, when the Babylonians overran the city. Well many skeptics have doubted this claim, but in July of 2007, Michael Jursa, a visiting professor from Vienna, discovered Nebo-Sarsekim's name (Nabu-sharrussu-ukin) written on an Assyrian cuneiform tablet! This tablet was used as a receipt acknowledging Nabu-sharrussu-ukin's payment of 0.75 kg of gold to a temple in Babylon, and it described Nebo-Sarsekim as "the chief eunuch" of Nebuchadnezzar II, king of Babylon. The tablet is dated to the 10th year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar II, 595BC, 12 years before the siege of Jerusalem, once again verifying the dating and record of the Bible!

http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/T ... ologically

Again - taken from the site YOU first referenced here but never quoted by you at all!!

How "instructive" that you show so little interset in the just-say-nay debunking that happens as we discover more facts in antiquity that confirm THE VERY DETAILS of the OT text!!

Notice also that the captivity of Jerusalem by Babylon predicted by Jeremiah and then the release of the captives (as predicted) after 70 years is the pending promise that Daniel looks toward in Dan 9:1-4.

Your just-say-nay arguments have more failings than many atheists would have guessed.

Bob
 
Jumping the gun there, Bob, though I admit that the fault is partly mine. I meant to make it clear that the post you are replying to so vehemently is intended to be the first of at least two, the first (the one you are replying to) dealing with how the Ebla discovery impacts on creationist timeline claims - which is something that is obvious as soon as you look at the dates and data for Ebla - the second looking at whether discoveries amongst the Ebla Tablets support the Bible at all. You will, of course, be aware that it is possible for one to be the case and not the other.

The argument I have made so far is that the evidence from Ebla does not support the creationist chronology for the history of humanity and indirectly does much to undermine it, as I showed. This is an argument you have not responded to other than with the entirely ludicrous suggestion that the only way in which historic population numbers and growth rates can be projected is through regular censuses. The US Census Bureau reports a study estimating the global population in 2000 BC as 27 million; in 3000 BC the population is estimated at 14 million*. Population numbers and growth rates are estimated using a variety of methods, including settlement studies, palaeopathology, carrying capacity, biological and forensic archaeology, and population modelling. To dismiss estimates derived using these methods because you do not happen to like the implications is the 'deny-all' argument that you frequently accuse anyone who disagrees with you of adopting.

* http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html
 
From page NINE -- before L.K posted his EBLA site links --

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33070&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=120#p396199
--------------------------------------------------------------------

BobRyan said:
lordkalvan said:
by referring to the Ebla tablets as if the phrase 'Ebla tablets' is a powerful mantra that all by itself absolves you of any requirement to answer specific questions with relevant and specific answers.

Your response is a pre-eminent example of your preference for bluff, bluster and rhetoric over reasoned argument.

Nice smoke-mirrors and "harrumph!" once again but as usual you missed the point entirely.

My reference to the Ebla tablets is an example that exposes the lack of genuine due diligence in your argument. You pretend to be interested in the integrity of the Bible -- but you show by your complete dissinterest in those finds that confirm it -- that your real agenda is "doubt-the-bible-first" without any real interest in cases where the just-say-nay arguments were debunked.

Any atheist or agnostic can take your "bible is wrong until proven otherwise" approach to the text.


lordkalvan said:
^ Bob, my interest in seeing you answer simple, straightforward questions simply and straightforwardly.

I quoted you -- and I responded.

L.K . If you want to support your arguments evidentially it is your responsibility to provide that evidence,

Ebla tablets.

DSS

For those with genuine interest in seeing how the Bible is confirmed in Archaeology.

L.K
not mine to hunt down every vague, unspecified reference you make to try and understand what it is you mean and exactly what it is you are referring to.

At last count there were some 15,000 Ebla tablets. Do you have the original texts and the translations you have made that support your assertions about whatever it is that the Ebla documents prove in respect of the Bible?

They have been working on them since the 1970's and many "just-say-nay" claims about the Bible have been and are being debunked in the process.

What is of MORE interest to me is your complete lack of interest in this confirming evidence!

It goes to your "doubt-the-Bible-first" model -- you demonstrate a lot of interest in accusations against the Bible - and no interest in ares that confirm it.

L.K.
Just out of curiosity, is there any evidence you can think of that would falsify Noah's existence and/or his legendary long-livedness?

God and the Angels - falsified (Atheists would love that!)
Christ's resurrection - falsified (atheists would love that!)
Christ's ascension into heaven - falsified (atheists would love that!)
The virgin birth - falsified (atheists would love that!)
Literal 6 day creation of life - falsified (atheists would love that!)

My arguments are not that atheists have no interest in getting to the same points that interest you -- my argument is that given the debunking of the just-say-nay claims against the Bible as seen in archaeology -- and that you seem to have no interest at all in researching - there is an amazing similarity to your approach and the one we see all atheists making on this same topic!

Bob

======================================

End of quoted ref.
 
Yet another reference of the form "OT has been verified" in the minute DETAILS it gives -- that was IN the link L.K gave us -- but like our atheist friends on this board L.K showed NO INTEREST in reporting Bible CONFIRMING data in his OWN linked sites!

And archeology has confirmed more than individuals and people groups found in the Old Testament. Over and over again, archeology has confirmed historical facts that were once doubted by the "experts". As an example, historians once doubted the historicity of Nehemiah's account of the restoration of Jerusalem that is found in the Bible. Nehemiah lived during the period when Judah was a province of the Persian Empire, and he arrived in Jerusalem as governor in 445 BC. With the permission of the Persian king, he decided to rebuild and restore the city after the destruction of the First Temple by the Babylonians (which occurred a century earlier, in 586 BC). The Book of Nehemiah records the completion of this wall in just 52 days, and many historians did not believe this to be true, since the wall itself was never discovered. But in November of 2007, the remnants of the wall were uncovered in an archaeological excavation in Jerusalem's ancient City of David, strengthening recent claims that King David's palace was also found at the site. Experts now agree that the wall has been discovered along with the palace and once again the Old Testament has been verified.

How "surprising" that L.K shows such lack of interest in the bible "confirmed" details. Even though this details comes from this link that L.K gave us on this thread --
http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/T ... ologically

Notice that L.K's doubt-the-bible-first approach has no interest at all in the bible confirming facts found EVEN in the links HE presents to the thread here!
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33070&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=120#p396487

Bob
 
lordkalvan said:
Jumping the gun there, Bob, though I admit that the fault is partly mine. I meant to make it clear that the post you are replying to so vehemently is intended to be the first of at least two,

Thanks L.K

I have been pointing out all along that those who pretend to take an objective approach to the text of scripture while constantly presenting a just-say-nay solution for the Bible -- in fact would pay no attention at ALL to Bible CONFIRMING data coming from Archaeology -- kinda the way you demonstrated with your OWN referenced links here.

My thanks to you again for your cooperation in helping me make that point.

L.K
the second looking at whether discoveries amongst the Ebla Tablets support the Bible at all.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33070&p=396600#p396590

Yes that is the part where we keep noticing detail after detail IN the sites you bring up -- NOT being referenced at all in your discussion when they confirm Bible details.

L.K
The argument I have made so far is that the evidence from Ebla does not support the creationist chronology for the history of humanity and indirectly does much to undermine it, as I showed. This is an argument you have not responded to
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33070&p=396600#p396590

Indeed my comments before you posted even one link on Ebla discussion -- was simply to point out your total lack of interest in discoveries that were shown to CONFIRM Bible details.

L.K
The US Census Bureau reports a study estimating the global population in 2000 BC as 27 million; in 3000 BC the population is estimated at 14 million*.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33070&p=396600#p396590

As I said -- SOMEBODY had to do the census for those years -- just didn't know WHO you were claiming for that! ;-) :lol:


L.K

To dismiss estimates derived using these methods because you do not happen to like the implications is the 'deny-all' argument that you frequently accuse anyone who disagrees with you of adopting.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33070&p=396600#p396590

I am a big fan of "GUESSWORK" L.K except when you propose that "I GUESS" and "I IMAGINE" are the basis for your doubt-the-bible first arguments.

In the meantime -- hope you don't mind if I continue to point out the Bible CONFIRMING details in those links YOU GAVE us - that you then showed NO INTEREST AT ALL in looking at in your continued doubt-the-bible first posts.

From L.K's own LINKed site

But of all the Biblical historical accounts, perhaps the most doubted has been the Biblical account of the Flood (as described in Genesis 6-9). Well, it just so happens that the most doubted event is also the most archaeologically documented. A number of Babylonian documents have been discovered which describe the same flood. The Sumerian King List, for example, lists kings who reigned for long periods of time. Then a great flood came. Following the flood, this Babylonian document records that Sumerian kings ruled for much shorter periods of time. This just so happens to be the same pattern that is found in the Bible. Men had long life spans before the flood and shorter life spans after the flood. In addition, the 11th tablet of the Gilgamesh Epic speaks of an ark, animals taken on the ark, birds sent out during the course of the flood, the ark landing on a mountain, and a sacrifice offered after the ark landed.

And be aware of the fact that flood stories have been discovered among nearly ALL nations and tribes. Though most common on the Asian mainland and the islands immediately south of it and on the North American continent, they have been found on ALL the continents. Totals of the number of stories known run as high as about 270. Although these traditions have been modified through the ages and some have taken on fantastic elements, most of them have certain basic elements in common:


88% of them single out a favored individual or family.
70% point to survival due to a boat.
66% see the Flood coming as a result of human wickedness.
67% speak of animals saved along with human beings.
57 % record that the survivors end up on a mountain.
66% indicate that the hero receives warning of the coming catastrophe.


The common criticism that many of these flood stories came from contacts with missionaries will not stand up because most of them were gathered by anthropologists not interested in confirming the truth of the Bible. In addition to this, these common tales of a worldwide flood are filled with fanciful and pagan elements, evidently the result of the telling and re-telling of the story for extended periods of time in a non-Biblical society. A third factor is that the ancient accounts were written by people very much in opposition to the Hebrew-Christian tradition.

http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/T ... ologically

Bob
 
Bob, your most immediate responses are little more than a series of hysterical rants about those aspects of the Ebla Tablets that I said I would be addressing subsequently and that I have yet to make any comments on at all. You prejudge my conclusions in a near-abusive fashion, and introduce arguments that are entirely irrelevant to my post and fail entirely to address in any reasonable or meaningful way the points I have raised. I am sorry that you feel so threatened by the conclusions I draw from the context in which the Ebla materials were found - a context that suggests serious weaknesses in the creationist timeline for the history of humanity that I have seen you propose - that you are unable to discuss the subject in a rational manner. If you have no reasoned answers to my arguments, then say so - your comment on the US Census Bureau figures is irrelevant, risible and ignorant, for example: did you pay no attention at all to the methods that I briefly referred you to that are used by the relevant experts to estimate population numbers and growth rates in societies and cultures for which centralized census figures are unavailable? What methods do you propose for making such estimates, or perhaps you just prefer to make figures up that support your pre-existing idea of what they should be?

If you can't discuss matters rationally and relevantly, what is the point of having a discussion at all?
 
Bob has reacted stridently to the comments I posted suggesting that the historical context of the Ebla tablets casts doubts on the short creationist timeline for the history of humanity that he espouses, accusing me of wilfully ignoring the evidence from the tablets themselves that directly supports biblical text. I pointed out to Bob that his reaction was somewhat premature, but this did not seem to slow him down. Regardless of my unhappiness with the tone of Bob’s responses, however, others reading this thread may be interested in my research around the Ebla tablets and wish to join the discussion in a more reasoned way than Bob seems able to do.

Bob suggested that I look at the Ebla tablets as providing documentary evidence for certain parts of biblical text that had been questioned in the absence of confirming evidence prior to the discovery of the tablets. Bob seems to think that if it can be shown that a part of biblical text that had previously been questioned is in fact correct this in some way leads to a certainty that any other part of biblical text that may be questioned must inevitably at some date be shown to be correct and therefore any expressed doubt at all as to the inerrancy of information in the Bible is misplaced and ‘atheistic’.

The subject of the Ebla tablets probably deserves a more detailed and scholarly treatment than I can give it in a forum like this, but a tentative understanding of the relevance of the tablets to biblical text can be achieved by considering some of the material available online. I intend to break my discussion of the Ebla tablets and the Bible into at least two parts. This post will be the first of those parts.

In the body of an article that I referenced previously there is a specific claim:

Also, many had said that there was no writing in the days of Moses; the discovery and translation of the Hammurabi Code and the Ebla Tablets show that both writing and extensive law codes existed in Moses’ time.

Christian Evidences 03/04/05, Spotlight # 9 – The Ebla Tablets by Jonas Manske at:

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cach...ebla+tablets&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&client=safari

This claim is repeated almost word-for-word in another article on the Ebla tablets:

Many said there was no writing in the days of Moses. Hammurabi and Ebla show that there was writing and extensive law codes in Moses’ time.

From: OTS: The Ebla Tablets at http://theopenword.org/ots/m_et.htm

A variation of the claim is made on a third site:

Critics had argued that ancient people of this time were NOT capable of intricate and detailed record keeping, but the Ebla Tablets prove otherwise.

http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/The_Old_Testament_Is_Verified_Archeologically


All these claims contain elements of a strawman fallacy: an unspecified ‘many’ persons or 'critics' are said to have used the claim that writing did not exist in Moses’ day to ‘nay-say’ (Bob’s term) the Bible; the Ebla tablets contain writing, they pre-date Moses, therefore the ‘many’ are proved wrong and the Bible is proved correct. It is of interest to note that despite there being ‘many’ who apparently held to this view, in none of the articles is even one of the ‘many’ named and no reference or citation is provided to the ‘many’s’ claim in respect of writing and/or the formulation of law. If, indeed, such a claim was made and if the Ebla tablets are seen as overturning that claim, those who believed the nay-sayers to be wrong have been lax in researching evidence to support their belief. In my own small library, the following works mention the existence of both the written word and codes of law well before Moses’ time:

W.B. Emery’s Archaic Egypt (London 1961) refers to ‘a cursive script ... already in common use’ (p.192) at the beginning of Egypt’s First Dynasty (c.3100-2890 BC), as well as ‘an organized judicial system’ (p.110).

E.A. Gardner, writing on archaeology in An Outline of Modern Knowledge (London 1931) points out that ‘Systems of writing appear to have been in use as early as 3500 BC’ (p.529).

J. Gardner Wilkinson in The Ancient Egyptians (London 1854) remarks that writing was in common use in Egypt 2000 years before Alexander’s conquest in around 330 BC (reprint edition London 1996, Vol. II, p. 98) and attributes Moses’ skill as a legislator to having become ‘versed “in all the wisdom of the Egyptiansâ€Â’ (ibid., p. 202).

In this example, therefore, it is clear that the Ebla tablets constitute no evidence for the claims mentioned above that was not already known to exist. If the ‘many’ truly believed the contrary to be the case, they were mistaken and their critics showed lack of due diligence in waiting to prove them wrong by reference to the Ebla tablets. I conclude therefore that the Ebla tablets provide no new confirming evidence for the Bible in respect of the existence of writing and the codification of laws.

I will continue my analysis in a subsequent post.
 
I'm glad to see that this thread is moving along in a direction heading towards some sort of goal. :-)
 
lordkalvan said:
Bob, your most immediate responses are little more than a series of hysterical rants

What???

1. YOU bring up those links and then proceed to gloss over every bible confirming detail seen in your OWN links.

2. I then start posting the VERY "inconvenient details" you are so anxious to gloss over.

3. Then you respond that to bring up details you seek to avoid should now be ignored as nothing more than "hysterical rant"????

Where is the "reason" in such a response?

Who is the targetted "accepting reader" for that kind of logic?

Hint: The entire reason for my first bringing up the DSS and the Ebla tablet evidence is that they present example after example of just-say-nay arguments falling in the dust of "discovery" -- and that your pretense to "objective" acceptance of facts is debunked by your clear avoidance of bible-confirming data such as we find there.

Then you proceed to bring up those links - and IGNORE every Bible confirming argument they provide???!!

Are you simply trying to make MY argument FOR me?

Bob
 
The devastating fact is that the VERY links YOU brought up show that OT Bible DETAILS are accurate in the very place that just-say-nay groups have challenged the Bible.

(Seen in example-after-example here
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33070&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=135#p396573 )


Your Bible-is-just-Aesop's-fables-writ-large - argument falls on that point alone.

Obviously.

Bob
 
Bob, it appears that you are not paying any attention at all to what I post. Please feel free to argue against the points I make as I make them, but arguing against points that I have not even made yet is - well, I don't know what it is. I have stated several times that I am looking at the Ebla tablets in a series of distinct posts dealing separately with particular aspects of the context of their discovery and the information they contain and yet you choose to interpret my methodology by accusing me of

...proceed[ing] to gloss over every bible confirming detail seen in your OWN links.

and

....IGNOR[ing] every Bible confirming argument they provide

I did not respond directly to your ''posting the VERY "inconvenient details"' that you accuse me of being 'so anxious to gloss over' because (a) I regarded the tone of your posts as near-libellously ill-mannered in the accusations of avoidance and evasion that you launched against me and (b) your posts were almost entirely irrelevant to the points I had made, points that you chose very much to ignore in preference to following your own agenda.

It was your suggestion that I look at the Ebla tablets and assess their Bible-confirming worth. This I am doing. You could at least take the time to read the arguments I make from my assessment of the evidence they provide and then reply reasonably and relevantly to those arguments. For my part, I am continuing with this assessment mostly because I said I would and because other people on this thread may be interested in discussing its implications slightly more level-headedly than you appear able to do.
 
lordkalvan said:
Bob, it appears that you are not paying any attention at all to what I post. Please feel free to argue against the points I make as I make them, but arguing against points that I have not even made yet is - well, I don't know what it is. I have stated several times that I am looking at the Ebla tablets in a series of distinct posts dealing separately with particular aspects of the context of their discovery and the information they contain and yet you choose to interpret my methodology by accusing me of

...proceed[ing] to gloss over every bible confirming detail seen in your OWN links.

and

[quote:v2c0a5ew]....IGNOR[ing] every Bible confirming argument they provide

I did not respond directly to your ''posting the VERY "inconvenient details"' that you accuse me of being 'so anxious to gloss over' because (a) I regarded the tone of your posts as near-libellously ill-mannered in the accusations of avoidance and evasion that you launched against me and (b) your posts were almost entirely irrelevant to the points I had made, points that you chose very much to ignore in preference to following your own agenda.

It was your suggestion that I look at the Ebla tablets and assess their Bible-confirming worth. This I am doing. You could at least take the time to read the arguments I make from my assessment of the evidence they provide and then reply reasonably and relevantly to those arguments. For my part, I am continuing with this assessment mostly because I said I would and because other people on this thread may be interested in discussing its implications slightly more level-headedly than you appear able to do.[/quote:v2c0a5ew]

Though I won't be putting my 2 cents in here because I know very little of the Ebla Tablets, I am following your posts.
 
VaultZero4Me said:
Though I won't be putting my 2 cents in here because I know very little of the Ebla Tablets, I am following your posts.

Thanks for those few words of encouragement! Part 3 follows:

The Ebla Tablets (Continued)

An important point to make is that the source for most of the evidence on the Ebla tablets that the sites that argue the tablets as confirming evidence for the Bible appears to be the same: reports and lectures in 1976 by the University of Rome’s archaeological team’s then epigrapher Professor Giovanni Pettinato on his work on translating the tablets and, to a lesser extent, remarks attributed to the head of the team, Professor Paolo Matthiae.

Professor Pettinato believed that the language of Ebla was Palaeo-Canaanite and related to Phoenician and Hebrew. Professor Pettinato suggested that a number of personal names identfied on the tablets are similar to names in the OT, as are the names of certain cities, the most touted examples being that of the cities of the plain, including Sodom and Gomorrah.

By 1981, however, Time reported that Professor Matthiae clearly differed somewhat from the conclusions of his team’s epigrapher:

On the other hand, the theological significance of Ebla may be nil. Although the city was once a great commercial center, trading with Canaan and regions beyond, Matthiae insists that tablets from the 3rd millennium B.C. are far too old to have any important links with the much later texts of the Old Testament. Moreover, Ebla's language is problematic. "Eblaite" is a Semitic tongue written in cuneiform characters borrowed from Mesopotamia.

Time further reported that other linguistic experts disagreed with Professor Pettinato’s conclusion about the relationship between Eblaite and Phoenician and Hebrew:

The reigning cuneiform expert at the University of Chicago, Ignace J. Gelb, who classifies the Eblaite tongue as most akin to the Mesopotamian languages of Old Akkadian and Amorite, and thus distant from Hebrew, believes that the discoveries at Ebla add "nothing directly to biblical scholarship.â€Â

By the time that the Time article was written, Professor Pettinato had been replaced as the team’s epigrapher by Alfonso Archi, whose conclusions differed markedly from Professor Pettinato’s:

All such theoretical links [to Biblical text] depend upon transliterations and translations from the tablets themselves, and here the disputes give ample reason for caution. In the hybrid Eblaite language, a single sign can have a dozen meanings. Indeed, Alfonso Archi of the University of Rome, now the Ebla epigrapher, accuses ... Pettinato ... of distorting Eblaite religion by mistranslations. Harvard's Frank Cross, an authority on the Old Testament, believes that solid application of the Ebla findings remains a generation or two away. The majority of scholars concur.

Professor Pettinato had himself also significantly modified his initial conclusions about references to the five cities of the plain in the Ebla tablets:

In 1976 Pettinato startled a convention of U.S. professors of religion by reporting that references to all five of those cities crop up at Ebla. More recently, he has modified his claim: three of the five names occur Sodom, Gomorrah and Zoar  and he explains that these might not be the same as the cities mentioned in Genesis.

All Time quotations from: http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,953100,00.html

At the end of 1983 the Center for Online Judaic Studies published an article by James D. Muhly commenting on further work on the Ebla tablets that cast doubt on the original translations by Professor Pettinato:

According to Genesis 11:28–31, Abraham was born in the city of Ur. Contrary to earlier reports, the name Ur does not appear in the mid-third millennium cuneiform tablets uncovered at the ancient city of Ebla, now in Syria. That is the latest word from Ebla’s Italian team of archaeologists and epigraphers, who toured the United States last spring. This revision is the most recent of a long series concerning the contents of the tablets, especially as they relate to the Bible.

The name Jerusalem is another withdrawn claim. There is no reference to Jerusalem in the Ebla tablets, the Italians say, nor is there any mention of Megiddo, Lachish, Shechem or the Biblical Cities of the Plain. The city of Kish does appear in the texts, but not Uruk, Nippur or Assur.

Muhly’s article again points to the difficulties inherent in achieving a correct interpretation of the tablets and the premature nature of many of the original claims:

These texts are, for the most part, written in Sumerian (that is, with Sumerian cuneiform signs) but are obviously meant to be read (pronounced) in Eblaite. The tablets are fairly easy to read but exceedingly difficult to understand. Before the texts were published, many claims were made for their contentsâ€â€for example, that they referred to Sargon of Akkad, that the name of the Egyptian Pharaoh Pepi II appeared and that all the Cities of the Plain were mentioned. Many of these claims are now simply best forgotten, said the members of the lecture tour.

The Italian team studying Ebla now believed any connection between the Ebla tablets and the text of the Bible to be illusory and misleading:

According to the Italian lecturers, the world of the Ebla tablets is the world of the mid-third millennium B.C., while the Old Testament is based in the first millennium B.C. The Italians cite the very influential recent work of such scholars as Thomas L. Thompson and John Van Seters who find nothing earlier than the first millennium B.C. in the composition of the books of the Old Testament, including the book of Genesis.

Muhly concludes with a rather cynical, but perhaps realistic assessment of the initial reactions to dramatic archaeological discoveries:

What has happened with the Ebla tablets is, unfortunately, exactly what happened with several other major textual discoveries of this century, such as the Ugaritic texts, the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Linear B tablets in Mycenaean Greek. In each case there was a period of wild enthusiasm with everyone wanting to get into the act. Claim and counterclaim followed one bizarre reconstruction after another.

All Muhly quotations from: http://cojs.org/cojswiki/Ur_and_Jer...lars,_James_D._Muhly,_BAR_9:06,_Nov/Dec_1983.


The Wiki article on Ebla agrees with the revisionist assessments of the Ebla tablets following the early claims of Professor Pettinato:

However, much of the initial media excitement about supposed Eblaite connections with the Bible, based on preliminary guesses and speculations by Pettinato and others, is now widely deplored as "exceptional and unsubstantiated claims" and "great amounts of disinformation that leaked to the public". Contrary to many earlier claims, the present consensus is that "Ebla has no bearing on the Minor Prophets, the historical accuracy of the biblical Patriarchs, Yahweh worship, or Sodom and Gomorra". In Ebla studies, the focus has shifted away from comparisons with the Bible, and Ebla is now studied above all as an incipient civilization in its own right.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebla

In conclusion, it seems to be the case that virtually all of the sites claiming support for Biblical text in the Ebla tablets base their arguments on the material published and lectured on in 1976. with little reference to later revisions. The belief that the Ebla tablets offered significant support to biblical text appears to be illusory. Further work and perhaps more accurate and definitive translations may shift the balance in the other direction again, of course, but at present there are no articles or works referenced online through Google Scholar, for example, that indicate any appearance of such a shift. In the thirty years that have elapsed since the original claims about the Ebla tablets were made, the overwhelming consensus amongst scholars is that those claims were premature and incorrect.

The conclusion that must be drawn is that the sites continuing to suggest significant support for biblical text in the Ebla tablets are basing their arguments on outdated and erroneous information; as further work has been done by archaeologists, epigraphers and other scholars, it has become clearly understood that there is no meaningful connection between the Ebla tablets and the Old Testament.
 
VaultZero4Me said:
VZ4M to L.K
Though I won't be putting my 2 cents in here because I know very little of the Ebla Tablets, I am following your posts.

As I stated at the outset -- I believe that your views on this should be identical to L.K's. That was my entire point!

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33070&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=105#p396008

BobRyan said:
L.K
Just out of curiosity, is there any evidence you can think of that would falsify Noah's existence and/or his legendary long-livedness?

God and the Angels - falsified (Atheists would love that!)
Christ's resurrection - falsified (atheists would love that!)
Christ's ascension into heaven - falsified (atheists would love that!)
The virgin birth - falsified (atheists would love that!)
Literal 6 day creation of life - falsified (atheists would love that!)

My arguments are not that atheists have no interest in getting to the same points that interest you -- my argument is that given the debunking of the just-say-nay claims against the Bible as seen in archaeology -- and that you seem to have no interest at all in researching - there is an amazing similarity to your approach and the one we see all atheists making on this same topic!

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=33070&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=120#p396199

No doubt a moderator on the "Ethical Atheist" board would find perfect agreement with L.K's bash-the-bible first approach to the CONFIRMING evidence for the bible contained in links first posted by L.K's (with Bible confirming DETAILS devoutedly ignored by L.K.).

http://www.ethicalatheist.com/forum/

Bob
 
More on details being ignored in L.K's OWN links on EBLA because they are "Bible confirming" -- an approach that I am sure VZ4M would agree with -

The Ebla tablets refer to a creation story and a flood story. Also mentioned are names and places, which coincide with biblical ones: Esau, Abraham, Israel, Sinai, even Jerusalem.

But the real bombshell is the mention of the two “sin citiesâ€Â, Sodom and Gomorrah. Before the discovery of these tablets, no historical reference to these cities had been known except in the Bible.

http://www.adventmessage.com/Secrets/ebla.html

Ahh the sad demise of just-say-nay story after story when data comes to light!

Bob
 
As I stated at the outset -- I believe that your views on this should be identical to L.K's. That was my entire point!

And again I remind you that I care not for you vain apeal to emotion, lack of substance, and misquote mines.

I have requested you do not attempt to engage me, and still hold to that request.

I could care less what you believe.

Though do note that you entirely avoided responding to the posts :)
 
lordkalvan said:
In the body of an article that I referenced previously there is a specific claim:

Also, many had said that there was no writing in the days of Moses; the discovery and translation of the Hammurabi Code and the Ebla Tablets show that both writing and extensive law codes existed in Moses’ time.

Christian Evidences 03/04/05, Spotlight # 9 – The Ebla Tablets by Jonas Manske at:

http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cach...ebla+tablets&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=8&client=safari

This claim is repeated almost word-for-word in another article on the Ebla tablets:

[quote:j1irwfpb]Many said there was no writing in the days of Moses. Hammurabi and Ebla show that there was writing and extensive law codes in Moses’ time.

From: OTS: The Ebla Tablets at http://theopenword.org/ots/m_et.htm

A variation of the claim is made on a third site:

Critics had argued that ancient people of this time were NOT capable of intricate and detailed record keeping, but the Ebla Tablets prove otherwise.

http://www.pleaseconvinceme.com/index/The_Old_Testament_Is_Verified_Archeologically

[/quote:j1irwfpb]

Indeed -- so what will the "just-say-nay" arguments of atheists be when confronted with this history of the death of classic just-say-nay arguments against the Bible??

L.K

All these claims contain elements of a strawman fallacy: an unspecified ‘many’ persons or 'critics' are said to have used the claim that writing did not exist in Moses’ day to ‘nay-say’ (Bob’s term) the Bible; the Ebla tablets contain writing, they pre-date Moses, therefore the ‘many’ are proved wrong and the Bible is proved correct. It is of interest to note that despite there being ‘many’ who apparently held to this view, in none of the articles is even one of the ‘many’ named and no reference or citation is provided to the ‘many’s’ claim in respect of writing and/or the formulation of law.

Ahh yes "revisionist history" arguments!! Never put it past a Darwinist to engage in "story telling"!!

Mistakes of modern infidels p124

Colonel Ingersoll says point blank - "The Pentateuch was written hundreds of years after the Jews had settled in the Holy Land and hundreds of years after Moses was dust and ashes" P 228

He does not deny that the Hebrews may have been enslaved and that many plagues afflicted the Egyptians as the locusts and flies the death of many of their cattle the visit of a pestilence to their country etc but he asserts that all this was superstitiously attributed to God that the history of the events and their superstitious belief were handed down from father to son simply by tradition

He adds "By the time a written language had been produced thousands of additions had been made and numberless details invented so that we have not only an account of the suffered the Egyptians, but the whole woven into a connected story containing the threats made by Moses and Aaron the miracles wrought by them the promises of Pharaoh and

Mistakes of modern infidels; p125

finally the release of the Hebrews as a result of the marvellous things performed in their behalf by Jehovah Pp 208 209 Again As a matter of fact it seems to be well settled that Moses had nothing to do with these books and that they were not written until he had been dust and ashes for hundreds of years" P 46

It thus appears that the Colonel asserts First that the Pentateuch was written only several hundred years after the time of Moses Secondly that it is a compilation from the legends that were handed down by tradition among the Jews

MISTAKES OF MODERN INFIDELS 125 <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=GxUHAAAAQAAJ&lpg=PA130&ots=XsikvL-YF1&dq=No%20Writing%20before%20Moses&pg=PA125&ci=67,109,819,588&source=bookclip">Mistakes of modern infidels; or Evidences of Christianity,

comprising a complete refutation of col. Ingersoll's so-called Mistakes of Moses, and of objections of Voltaire, Paine and others against Christianity By George R Northgraves, Robert Green Ingersoll</a>

Sadly our just-say-nay groups today so wed to revisionist histories and pure story telling come up with these "never happened" arguments AS IF we are all still living in the dark ages and could possibly be induced to join them in their uncritical acceptance of atheist arguments against the Bible.

Bob
 
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