The Cross Is From Paganism

[JLB]

No, that is fallaciously begging the question, on two counts. You're assuming that the KJV is correct and newer versions in error, and you're also assuming that newer versions are trying to "erase the divinity of Christ." The first is a question of what does the original say, and that is exactly what newer versions are trying to do. The second assumption is patently false, unless you're talking about one of the apostate versions like the NWT.

I guess you have your opinion and I have mine.

 

[Free]

I guess you have your opinion and I have mine.

Yes, and mine is based on reason. All non-apostate versions, like the ESV, NIV, NRSV, etc., have done an exceedingly poor job at (supposedly) trying to erase the divinity of Jesus, as they all have numerous verses which prove it to be the case. This is a question of what the originals state, nothing more.

Even the context of 1 Tim. 3:16 is such that "He was manifested in the flesh" refers in one sense to God, since God is mentioned twice in verse 15, but we know that it was the Son who was "was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory." Hence, again, definitely not an attempt to erase the deity of Jesus.

 

[JLB]

Yes, and mine is based on reason. All non-apostate versions, like the ESV, NIV, NRSV, etc., have done an exceedingly poor job at (supposedly) trying to erase the divinity of Jesus, as they all have numerous verses which prove it to be the case. This is a question of what the originals state, nothing more.

Even the context of 1 Tim. 3:16 is such that "He was manifested in the flesh" refers in one sense to God, since God is mentioned twice in verse 15, but we know that it was the Son who was "was manifested in the flesh, vindicated by the Spirit, seen by angels, proclaimed among the nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory." Hence, again, definitely not an attempt to erase the deity of Jesus.

14 I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. 16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 NASB


14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 KJV


14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 NIV



14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 NKJV


Like I said, the newer versions tend to diminish the divinity of Christ.

I use the KJV to study. I use the NKJV to read.


This is based on my reasoning and study over the years.




JLB

 

[locust]

Okay, and your point is what, exactly?

walk into just about any church and look around . is there a great big T on the wall that the congregation looks to ?
are you then willing to say ''a carved image'' does not apply? .
one could almost conclude if there's is big T on the wall its a church. that's MHO

 

[locust]

14 I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. 16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 NASB


14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 KJV


14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 NIV



14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 NKJV


Like I said, the newer versions tend to diminish the divinity of Christ.

I use the KJV to study. I use the NKJV to read.


This is based on my reasoning and study over the years.




JLB

1 Timothy 3:14-16 is not saying Jesus is God

 

[Free]

walk into just about any church and look around . is there a great big T on the wall that the congregation looks to ?
are you then willing to say ''a carved image'' does not apply? .

Yes, because you are again not looking at the context, which clearly states the reason to not do so:

"You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them"

To bow down and worship such things, as though they are gods, is idolatry. However, it doesn't say that such things cannot be made if their purpose is something else entirely, such as a reminder of God's grace and love shown in Jesus's atonement on the cross.

one could almost conclude if there's is big T on the wall its a church. that's MHO

Well, it's not going to identify the building as a mosque, is it? That is one of the other reasons churches use crosses--to identify it as a place where a Christian church gathers to worship God.

 

[JLB]

1 Timothy 3:14-16 is not saying Jesus is God

The Son of God was manifested in the flesh.

Do you agree or disagree?

 

[Free]

14 I am writing these things to you, hoping to come to you before long; 15 but in case I am delayed, I write so that you will know how one ought to conduct himself in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and support of the truth. 16 By common confession, great is the mystery of godliness:
He who was revealed in the flesh,
Was vindicated in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Proclaimed among the nations,
Believed on in the world,
Taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 NASB


14 These things write I unto thee, hoping to come unto thee shortly: 15 But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 KJV


14 Although I hope to come to you soon, I am writing you these instructions so that, 15 if I am delayed, you will know how people ought to conduct themselves in God’s household, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth. 16 Beyond all question, the mystery from which true godliness springs is great:
He appeared in the flesh,
was vindicated by the Spirit,
was seen by angels,
was preached among the nations,
was believed on in the world,
was taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 NIV



14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 NKJV


Like I said, the newer versions tend to diminish the divinity of Christ.

Except that they don't. In some cases, they're even clearer:

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (KJV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (NKJV)


Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. (NIV84)

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. (NIV)

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (NASB)

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known. (NRSV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known. (LEB)

Each of those newer versions makes much more clear what John is saying--that Jesus is truly God--whereas many people who deny the deity of Jesus appeal to the KJV and NKJV rendering to make it seem that Jesus only a created being. Again, it's simply about manuscript evidence and what most likely gets closest to the autographs.

I use the KJV to study. I use the NKJV to read.


This is based on my reasoning and study over the years.

The KJV (and NKJV) is based on late manuscripts which had accumulated a thousand years worth of copying errors. That is one reason why newer versions are generally better and why a person should use multiple versions, especially for study, which should include ones that use various theories of translating--formal equivalence or functional/dynamic equivalence; free translation not so much for studying.

 

[jasonc]

Yes, because you are again not looking at the context, which clearly states the reason to not do so:

"You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them"

To bow down and worship such things, as though they are gods, is idolatry. However, it doesn't say that such things cannot be made if their purpose is something else entirely, such as a reminder of God's grace and love shown in Jesus's atonement on the cross.


Well, it's not going to identify the building as a mosque, is it? That is one of the other reasons churches use crosses--to identify it as a place where a Christian church gathers to worship God.

We can't have liturgical imagery in the church .the roof can't be shaped like a cross or windows with imagery of visions or stories in the bible .

Noo ,nothing to make us focus on Who we stand before .can't have that .

 

[JLB]

Except that they don't. In some cases, they're even clearer:

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (KJV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (NKJV)


Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. (NIV84)

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. (NIV)

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (NASB)

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known. (NRSV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known. (LEB)

Each of those newer versions makes much more clear what John is saying--that Jesus is truly God--whereas many people who deny the deity of Jesus appeal to the KJV and NKJV rendering to make it seem that Jesus only a created being. Again, it's simply about manuscript evidence and what most likely gets closest to the autographs.


The KJV (and NKJV) is based on late manuscripts which had accumulated a thousand years worth of copying errors. That is one reason why newer versions are generally better and why a person should use multiple versions, especially for study, which should include ones that use various theories of translating--formal equivalence or functional/dynamic equivalence; free translation not so much for studying.

I made my case, and don't intend to argue.


Plainly the newer versions I listed, tend to do away with the divinity of Christ, as I showed from 1 Timothy 3:16.

 

[Free]

I made my case, and don't intend to argue.


Plainly the newer versions I listed, tend to do away with the divinity of Christ, as I showed from 1 Timothy 3:16.

No, they don’t. That is poor reasoning, as I’ve shown.

 

[Consecrated Life]

The religious symbolism of the cross has its roots in ancient paganism. It became a symbol of Christianity only after the time of Constantine. The historical record shows that Christianity adapted the influences of pagan worship, which included the symbol of the cross.

Christ died on a (stake / poll) in fulfillment of Moses prophecy. The cross is the mark of the (Beast / Nation.)

You are confused.
There are no biblical references of any follower of Christ worshiping an inanimate object such a cross as you pagans claim to do.
Christ is the "symbol" Christianity.

 

[locust]

Yes, because you are again not looking at the context, which clearly states the reason to not do so:

"You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them"

To bow down and worship such things, as though they are gods, is idolatry. However, it doesn't say that such things cannot be made if their purpose is something else entirely, such as a reminder of God's grace and love shown in Jesus's atonement on the cross.


Well, it's not going to identify the building as a mosque, is it? That is one of the other reasons churches use crosses--to identify it as a place where a Christian church gathers to worship God.

are you familiar with

Numbers 21:9 ?​

then ask what happens to it ,,,,and then ask why

 

[locust]

Except that they don't. In some cases, they're even clearer:

Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (KJV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (NKJV)


Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. (NIV84)

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. (NIV)

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (ESV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him. (NASB)

Joh 1:18 No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son, who is close to the Father's heart, who has made him known. (NRSV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the one and only, God, the one who is in the bosom of the Father—that one has made him known. (LEB)

Each of those newer versions makes much more clear what John is saying--that Jesus is truly God--whereas many people who deny the deity of Jesus appeal to the KJV and NKJV rendering to make it seem that Jesus only a created being. Again, it's simply about manuscript evidence and what most likely gets closest to the autographs.


The KJV (and NKJV) is based on late manuscripts which had accumulated a thousand years worth of copying errors. That is one reason why newer versions are generally better and why a person should use multiple versions, especially for study, which should include ones that use various theories of translating--formal equivalence or functional/dynamic equivalence; free translation not so much for studying.

They're in lies the problem you never learn to understand what a contradiction is.
had you stayed with
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (KJV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (NKJV)
you would do better .
yet you are willing to promote Jesus as God . he is at best , the son of God . God made him for a purpose that you don't yet understand. for now i'd like to leave it at that.

 

[locust]

I assure you I put deep trust in scripture . what I don't trust is the design religion takes to influence people to believe different things . in time words and meanings change . so when some bibles say cross it may of been changed by a translator or someone with a personal agenda. ya it happens.

as for getting a body down its far easier than you may realize. I know it did to me. poles and cross' have one thing in common. they were stood up they could be laid down. that does not get the nail out ,thats a different problem.

would any like to talk about how the nails were taken out ?

 

[Free]

They're in lies the problem you never learn to understand what a contradiction is.
had you stayed with
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (KJV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (NKJV)
you would do better .
yet you are willing to promote Jesus as God . he is at best , the son of God . God made him for a purpose that you don't yet understand. for now i'd like to leave it at that.

See, JLB , case in point.

 

[JLB]

They're in lies the problem you never learn to understand what a contradiction is.
had you stayed with
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (KJV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (NKJV)
you would do better .
yet you are willing to promote Jesus as God . he is at best , the son of God . God made him for a purpose that you don't yet understand. for now i'd like to leave it at that.

I agree. No one in the Old Testament saw God the Father.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


It was Jesus Christ the Son who appeared to Abraham and made covenant with him.


Words of Christ in red:


“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

 

[locust]

I agree. No one in the Old Testament saw God the Father.


When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to Abram and said to him, “I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless. Genesis 17:1


It was Jesus Christ the Son who appeared to Abraham and made covenant with him.


Words of Christ in red:


“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” Revelation 1:8

you just gave yourself a problem . Jesus is not the almighty. Jesus is the son of the almighty

 

[Free]

They're in lies the problem you never learn to understand what a contradiction is.
had you stayed with
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. (KJV)

Joh 1:18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. (NKJV)
you would do better .
yet you are willing to promote Jesus as God . he is at best , the son of God . God made him for a purpose that you don't yet understand. for now i'd like to leave it at that.

you just gave yourself a problem . Jesus is not the almighty. Jesus is the son of the almighty

There are plenty of threads in the Trinitarianism forum if you want to discuss that significant error.

 

[CherubRam]

You have presented nothing but opinion.


I am producing scripture.


14 These things I write to you, though I hope to come to you shortly; 15 but if I am delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth. 16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifested in the flesh,
Justified in the Spirit,
Seen by angels,
Preached among the Gentiles,
Believed on in the world,
Received up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:14-16 NKJV


These three words that are rendered as God, are all the same Greek word Theos.

Theos is the Greek word for God.

G2316



View attachment 17366

THEO

Theo: Gender neutral, Translation: Divine. Interpretation: God /god/ to God / to god.

Theos: Male gender, Translation: Divine male.

Thea: Female gender, Translation: Divine female. Goddess

Theas: Female gender, Translation Divine females. Goddesses

Theous: Plural for Divines, (Gods or gods.)



Theou: God / of God

Theoi: Gods

Theion: θεῖον: Devine Eternal.

Theios: Translation: Divine nature.

TheiotEs: θειοτης / Divinity / divine nature

Deus is Latin for "deity," and dīvus is Latin for “divine;" and are descended from Proto-Indo-European Deiwos; from the same root as Dyēus, the chief god of the Proto-Indo-European pantheon.

The term "Godhead" is an English variant of the word "godhood" and was first introduced by John Wycliffe (1330-1384 C.E.) in English Bible versions as godhede. The word "Godhead" is a interpretation of three different Greek words. ( Theion, TheiotEs and TheotEtos )

Acts 17:29
Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead ( Theion = Divine Eternal ) is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.

Romans 1:20
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; ( TheiotEs = Divine Nature ) so that they are without excuse:

Colossians 2:9
For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead ( TheotEtos = Divine Nature Dwelling ) bodily.