The Cross Is From Paganism

[CherubRam]

Yahwah is the only true God.

The Only True God

2 Chronicles 15:3
For a long time Israel was without the true God, without a priest to teach and without the law.

Isaiah 65:16
Whoever invokes a blessing in the land will do so by the one true God; whoever takes an oath in the land will swear by the one true God. For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes.

Jeremiah 10:10
But [the Lord / Yahwah] is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.

Yahshua said this about God.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and [Jesus / Yahshua] Christ, whom you have sent.

1 Thessalonians 1:9
for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,

 

[Free]

Yahwah is the only true God.

The Only True God

2 Chronicles 15:3
For a long time Israel was without the true God, without a priest to teach and without the law.

Isaiah 65:16
Whoever invokes a blessing in the land will do so by the one true God; whoever takes an oath in the land will swear by the one true God. For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes.

Jeremiah 10:10
But [the Lord / Yahwah] is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. When he is angry, the earth trembles; the nations cannot endure his wrath.

Yahshua said this about God.
John 17:3
Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and [Jesus / Yahshua] Christ, whom you have sent.

1 Thessalonians 1:9
for they themselves report what kind of reception you gave us. They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,

Not the thread for this. Back to the topic.

 

[CherubRam]

Not the thread for this. Back to the topic.

In order for Christ to have fulfilled the prophecy, he had to die on a stake, not a cross.

Again: If Christ died on a cross, then he did not fulfill the prophecy.

Deuteronomy 21:23
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.


Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

ξυλου is a wood pole.

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”


Numbers 21:9

So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

A pole and a stake are the same thing, and a cross is not a pole or stake. Just like a saw horse is not a chair.

The word "cross" is a interpretation and not a translation. The cross is a pagan symbol. That is why it should not be used in the bible.


Terminology
Further information: Cross § Name

Ancient Greek has two verbs for crucify: ana-stauro (ἀνασταυρόω), from stauros, "stake", and apo-tumpanizo (ἀποτυμπανίζω) "crucify on a plank",[4] together with anaskolopizo (ἀνασκολοπίζω "impale"). In earlier pre-Roman Greek texts anastauro usually means "impale".[5][6][7]

New Testament Greek uses four verbs, three of them based upon stauros (σταυρός), usually translated "cross". The most common term is stauroo (σταυρόω), "to crucify", occurring 43 times; sustauroo (συσταυρόω), "to crucify with" or "alongside" occurs five times, while anastauroo (ἀνασταυρόω), "to crucify again" occurs only once at the Epistle to the Hebrews 6:6. prospegnumi (προσπήγνυμι), "to fix or fasten to, impale, crucify" occurs only once at the Acts of the Apostles 2:23.

The English term cross derives from the Latin word crux.[8] The Latin term crux classically referred to a tree or any construction of wood used to hang criminals as a form of execution. The term later came to refer specifically to a cross.[9]

The English term crucifix derives from the Latin crucifixus or cruci fixus, past participle passive of crucifigere or cruci figere, meaning "to crucify" or "to fasten to a cross"

The word "cross" was introduced into scriptures; before then the word stauros meant stake or pole only. Dictionaries were redefined to please the Catholics.

The sign of the cross is in the right hand and forehead. The Popes title equals 666.

Revelation 13:16
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,


Revelation 13:18
This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast,(nation) for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

Joining Pagan beliefs to the bible was an attempt to unify Paganism with Christianity.

 

[Free]

In order for Christ to have fulfilled the prophecy, he had to die on a stake, not a cross.

Again: If Christ died on a cross, then he did not fulfill the prophecy.

Deuteronomy 21:23
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.

Except that this could also be referring to a tree. Besides, it could likely have been hanging, as by a noose.

Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

ξυλου is a wood pole.

Like most words, ξύλον (xulon), has multiple meanings, the basis of all of which is wood.

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”


Numbers 21:9

So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

A pole and a stake are the same thing, and a cross is not a pole or stake. Just like a saw horse is not a chair.

And the relevance of this is what?

The word "cross" is a interpretation and not a translation. The cross is a pagan symbol. That is why it should not be used in the bible.

If Jesus was crucified by Romans, which he was, and if they used a Roman cross, which is very possible, then using the word "cross" is being truthful to what took place. It has absolutely nothing to do with being a supposed "pagan symbol."

As I pointed out above, while there is no way to know for sure, the little bits of information the Bible gives leans in the direction of a Roman cross.

Terminology
Further information: Cross § Name

Ancient Greek has two verbs for crucify: ana-stauro (ἀνασταυρόω), from stauros, "stake", and apo-tumpanizo (ἀποτυμπανίζω) "crucify on a plank",[4] together with anaskolopizo (ἀνασκολοπίζω "impale"). In earlier pre-Roman Greek texts anastauro usually means "impale".[5][6][7]

New Testament Greek uses four verbs, three of them based upon stauros (σταυρός), usually translated "cross". The most common term is stauroo (σταυρόω), "to crucify", occurring 43 times; sustauroo (συσταυρόω), "to crucify with" or "alongside" occurs five times, while anastauroo (ἀνασταυρόω), "to crucify again" occurs only once at the Epistle to the Hebrews 6:6. prospegnumi (προσπήγνυμι), "to fix or fasten to, impale, crucify" occurs only once at the Acts of the Apostles 2:23.

The English term cross derives from the Latin word crux.[8] The Latin term crux classically referred to a tree or any construction of wood used to hang criminals as a form of execution. The term later came to refer specifically to a cross.[9]

The English term crucifix derives from the Latin crucifixus or cruci fixus, past participle passive of crucifigere or cruci figere, meaning "to crucify" or "to fasten to a cross"

You must provide references for things that are not yours.

The word "cross" was introduced into scriptures; before then the word stauros meant stake or pole only. Dictionaries were redefined to please the Catholics.

Any evidence for this?

The sign of the cross is in the right hand and forehead. The Popes title equals 666.


Revelation 13:16
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,


Revelation 13:18
This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast,(nation) for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

This is eisegesis.

Joining Pagan beliefs to the bible was an attempt to unify Paganism with Christianity.

Which isn't what happened.

 

[locust]

In order for Christ to have fulfilled the prophecy, he had to die on a stake, not a cross.

Again: If Christ died on a cross, then he did not fulfill the prophecy.

Deuteronomy 21:23
you must not leave the body hanging on the pole overnight. Be sure to bury it that same day, because anyone who is hung on a pole is under God’s curse. You must not desecrate the land the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance.


Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who is hung on a pole.”

ξυλου is a wood pole.

Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

Numbers 21:9

So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.

A pole and a stake are the same thing, and a cross is not a pole or stake. Just like a saw horse is not a chair.

The word "cross" is a interpretation and not a translation. The cross is a pagan symbol. That is why it should not be used in the bible.


Terminology
Further information: Cross § Name

Ancient Greek has two verbs for crucify: ana-stauro (ἀνασταυρόω), from stauros, "stake", and apo-tumpanizo (ἀποτυμπανίζω) "crucify on a plank",[4] together with anaskolopizo (ἀνασκολοπίζω "impale"). In earlier pre-Roman Greek texts anastauro usually means "impale".[5][6][7]

New Testament Greek uses four verbs, three of them based upon stauros (σταυρός), usually translated "cross". The most common term is stauroo (σταυρόω), "to crucify", occurring 43 times; sustauroo (συσταυρόω), "to crucify with" or "alongside" occurs five times, while anastauroo (ἀνασταυρόω), "to crucify again" occurs only once at the Epistle to the Hebrews 6:6. prospegnumi (προσπήγνυμι), "to fix or fasten to, impale, crucify" occurs only once at the Acts of the Apostles 2:23.

The English term cross derives from the Latin word crux.[8] The Latin term crux classically referred to a tree or any construction of wood used to hang criminals as a form of execution. The term later came to refer specifically to a cross.[9]

The English term crucifix derives from the Latin crucifixus or cruci fixus, past participle passive of crucifigere or cruci figere, meaning "to crucify" or "to fasten to a cross"

The word "cross" was introduced into scriptures; before then the word stauros meant stake or pole only. Dictionaries were redefined to please the Catholics.

The sign of the cross is in the right hand and forehead. The Popes title equals 666.

Revelation 13:16
It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads,


Revelation 13:18
This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast,(nation) for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.

Joining Pagan beliefs to the bible was an attempt to unify Paganism with Christianity.

that's some good stuff right there I tell you what . the only correction I would offer ,man's number is 6 .we could talk about

 

[locust]

Except that this could also be referring to a tree. Besides, it could likely have been hanging, as by a noose.


Like most words, ξύλον (xulon), has multiple meanings, the basis of all of which is wood.


And the relevance of this is what?


If Jesus was crucified by Romans, which he was, and if they used a Roman cross, which is very possible, then using the word "cross" is being truthful to what took place. It has absolutely nothing to do with being a supposed "pagan symbol."

As I pointed out above, while there is no way to know for sure, the little bits of information the Bible gives leans in the direction of a Roman cross.


You must provide references for things that are not yours.


Any evidence for this?


This is eisegesis.


Which isn't what happened.

not going to say that no one ever was hung on a cross. there are plenty of reasons to believe such a thing did happen .

how ever ,that does not mean that how it was with Jesus .

hang a person on a cross and they will die in days not hours . the cross bar has the purpose of extending the amount of time it takes for the person to die.

if hung on a pole it's likely the person would be dead in roughly 6 hours . to make sure they would be dead the legs would be broken as the person had to be dead and buried before the sun went down.

 

[Free]

not going to say that no one ever was hung on a cross. there are plenty of reasons to believe such a thing did happen .

how ever ,that does not mean that how it was with Jesus .

hang a person on a cross and they will die in days not hours . the cross bar has the purpose of extending the amount of time it takes for the person to die.

if hung on a pole it's likely the person would be dead in roughly 6 hours . to make sure they would be dead the legs would be broken as the person had to be dead and buried before the sun went down.

Conjecture. Besides, I have already shown that a cross best fits the biblical narrative.

 

[locust]

Conjecture. Besides, I have already shown that a cross best fits the biblical narrative.

all you have really done is to have given your opinion. First study the forensic of the matter .there are clues which indicate that a cross was not used for the execution of Jesus

 

[Free]

all you have really done is to have given your opinion. First study the forensic of the matter .there are clues which indicate that a cross was not used for the execution of Jesus

Yet, I have given passages which supported my opinion, which you didn't address, and you have not.

 

[CherubRam]

Except that this could also be referring to a tree. Besides, it could likely have been hanging, as by a noose.


Like most words, ξύλον (xulon), has multiple meanings, the basis of all of which is wood.


And the relevance of this is what?


If Jesus was crucified by Romans, which he was, and if they used a Roman cross, which is very possible, then using the word "cross" is being truthful to what took place. It has absolutely nothing to do with being a supposed "pagan symbol."

As I pointed out above, while there is no way to know for sure, the little bits of information the Bible gives leans in the direction of a Roman cross.


You must provide references for things that are not yours.


Any evidence for this?


This is eisegesis.


Which isn't what happened.

The Greek word "ξύλον" (xulon) primarily refers to wood or anything made of wood, such as a tree, a piece of timber, or a wooden object.
The Romans also used a wooden pole to execute people.

To fulfill Mosses prophecy the Messiah had to die on a pole or stake. Crosses are from Paganism.

The Tau Cross of life started in Egypt as a pagan symbol and was later adopted by Christians (Copts)

 

[CherubRam]

The Cross as a Talisman

A talisman is an object that someone believes holds magical properties that brings good luck protecting the possessor from evil or harm.



A plenary indulgence removes all punishment due for sins. The Cross on the Catholics death bed is for that purpose.





Yahshua did not die on a "cross", but died upon a torture stake, for that is the meaning of the Greek word stauros, and is used interchangeably by the Bible writers with the Greek word xylon, translated as "tree" or "wood" by the King James Bible.(Acts 5:30)

For Yahshua to become the "accursed" one, to fulfill the Mosaic Law, it was required for him to die upon a "tree" or more literally a "stake", for Deuteronomy 21:22,23 says: " And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree.(Hebrew ‛ets´) His body shall not remain all night upon the tree (Hebrew ‛ets´), but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God."

The apostle Paul quoted from Deuteronomy 21:23, saying that "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree (Greek xylon ):"(Gal 3:13, King James Bible)

Thus, the Hebrew word ‛ets´ corresponds to the Greek word xylon and means a timber, or a "beam". To show that this is the case, at 1 Kings 6:15, in building the temple, it said that Solomon, "from the floor of the house up to the rafters of the ceiling he overlaid (the walls) with timber (Hebrew ‛ets´) inside." Thus, "timber" ("a large piece of wood, usually squared, used in a building, for example, as a beam", Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) of cedar was used to overlay the walls, and was upright "timber" of wood and not "cross" forms.

The online interlinear Scripture4all renders xylon as "wood". Another Greek word used for the instrument Yahshua died upon, stauros, is at Matthew 10:38; 16:24; 27:32, 40, 42 and is rendered as "pale"(online interlinear Scripture4all ), which means "fence stake: a pointed slat of wood for a fence."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005) That he died upon a "pole" or "stake", is that the apostle Peter said of Yahshua, that "we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:"(Acts 10:39, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon)

The apostle Paul told the Jews in Antioch in Pisidia, that "when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him (Yahshua) down from the tree." (Acts 13:29, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon) The apostle Peter wrote: "Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree."(1 Peter 2:24, King James Bible; "tree", Greek xylon) Hence, Yahshua died upon a "tree" or "pale", a "stake", not cross.

The Hebrews had no word for the traditional cross. To designate such an implement, they used “warp and woof,” alluding to yarns running lengthwise in a fabric and others going across it on a loom.(Lev 13:56-59) The French Dictionnaire Encyclopédique Universel (Encyclopedic Universal Dictionary) says: “For a long time we believed that the cross, considered a religious symbol, was specifically for Christians. This is not the case.” The book Dual Heritage—The Bible and the British Museum (1986) states: “It may come as a shock to know that there is no word such as ‘cross’ in the Greek of the New Testament. The word translated ‘cross’ is always the Greek word [stau·ros´] meaning a ‘stake’ or ‘upright pale.’ The cross was not originally a Christian symbol; it is derived from Egypt and Constantine.”

The New Strong's Concise Concordance & Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible states that the meaning of "stauros (4716) denotes, primarily , "an upright pale or stake." On such malefactors were nailed for execution. Both the noun and the verb stauroo, "to fasten to a stake or pale," are originally to be distinguished from the ecclesiastical form of a two beamed "cross." The shape of the latter had its origin in ancient Chaldea, and was used as the symbol of the god Tammuz (being in the shape of the mystic Tau, the initial of his name) in that country and in adjacent lands, including Egypt. By the middle of the 3rd cent. A.D. the churches had either departed from, or had travestied, certain doctrines of the Christian faith. In order to increase the prestige of the apostate ecclesiastical system pagans were received into the churches apart from regeneration by faith, and were permitted largely to retain their pagan signs and symbols. Hence the Tau or T, in its most frequent form, with the cross-piece lowered, was adopted to stand for the "cross" of Christ."(Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible, pg 75, 1999 edition)

Under the Hebrew word ‛ets´ (6086), Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible says "tree; wood; timber; stick; stalk." It goes on to say that "this word may signify a single "tree," as it does in Gen. 2:9; or a genus of tree, Isa. 41:19. ‛ets´ can mean "wood as a material from which things are constructed, as a raw material to be carved, Exod. 31:5. Large unprocessed pieces of "wood or timber" are also signified by ‛ets´, Hag 1:8. The end product of wood already processed and fashioned into something may be indicated by ‛ets´, Lev 11:32. This word means "stick" or "piece of wood" in Ezek. 37:16...‛ets´ one time means "stalk," Josh. 2:6."(pg 387)

And under the Greek word xylon (3586), Vine's Concise Dictionary of the Bible says "wood, a piece of wood, anything made of wood," is used, with the rendering "tree,"....the tree being the stauros, the upright pale or stake to which Romans nailed those who were thus to be executed, Acts 5:30; 10:39; 13:29; 1 Pet 2:24."(pg 387-88)

Thus, whether it be ‛ets´, xylon, or stauros, the meaning was the same, that of a "tree", "timber", "wood", "stick", or "upright pale or stake" and not a cross.

 

[locust]

Yet, I have given passages which supported my opinion, which you didn't address, and you have not.

could I get you to backup to posting #123 & 131

CherubRam has some info you may of missed​

 

[CherubRam]

Conjecture. Besides, I have already shown that a cross best fits the biblical narrative.

Crosses are Pagan symbols having nothing to do with Judaism or Christ.

 

[Free]

The Greek word "ξύλον" (xulon) primarily refers to wood or anything made of wood, such as a tree, a piece of timber, or a wooden object.

Exactly.

The Romans also used a wooden pole to execute people.

Of course.

To fulfill Mosses prophecy the Messiah had to die on a pole or stake.

What prophecy?

Crosses are from Paganism.

Since Romans used poles as well, then poles are from paganism.

The Tau Cross of life started in Egypt as a pagan symbol and was later adopted by Christians (Copts)

Okay.

Crosses are Pagan symbols having nothing to do with Judaism or Christ.

Yet, there is nothing to suggest this. It's only your unsupported opinion.

 

[Free]

could I get you to backup to posting #123 & 131

CherubRam has some info you may of missed​

I don't think I missed anything. I addressed what I deemed relevant.

 

[locust]

I don't think I missed anything. I addressed what I deemed relevant.

Obstinate ? I find i'm dealing with all the time. its said you bring a horse to water but ya cant make it drink.
only trying to give you cool refreshing water

 

[Free]

Obstinate ? I find i'm dealing with all the time. its said you bring a horse to water but ya cant make it drink.
only trying to give you cool refreshing water

I know the feeling. What else do you want? If you think I missed something, tell me what it is; don't just make vague statements.

Besides, it's rather hypocritical when you have yet to address some of what I have posted and instead just continue with the same arguments.

 

[locust]

I know the feeling. What else do you want? If you think I missed something, tell me what it is; don't just make vague statements.

Besides, it's rather hypocritical when you have yet to address some of what I have posted and instead just continue with the same arguments.

I noted you did not like
Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

it was something that was kept .for a time ,but then something happened to it .

ok granted ,likely you don't know what happen to it . yet there is a lessen to be learned . in this case ,throw the cross away '
don't look to the cross ,look to Jesus

 

[Free]

I noted you did not like
Numbers 21:8
The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.”

it was something that was kept .for a time ,but then something happened to it .

ok granted ,likely you don't know what happen to it . yet there is a lessen to be learned . in this case ,throw the cross away '
don't look to the cross ,look to Jesus

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying in any of this.

 

[locust]

Sorry, but I don't understand what you're saying in any of this.

Numbers 21:8 is a scripture you posted ,and you don't know any thing about it ? you don't know what happen to it?