The Crucifix Cross

[francisdesales]

Re: The Catholic Cross

The statement on the onset (and example) sounds good. However, Mary is now on the otherside of eternity. If I were to agree with your summation, then would it be fair to say it is alright to ask one's long since deceased, godly, prayer warrior grandmother to pray and intercede for them in times of struggles?

I would say "Yes". I do it myself. I feel closer to my Godly Grandmothers, whom I knew loved me unconditionally. I would have no doubt that they are praying for me, and my thoughts and prayers "to them" help me to follow in their footsteps and to be joined with them in heaven.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Re: The Catholic Cross

On the other hand, there are other things that Catholics do that impress me, like how they get into the fight against abortion so publicly.

There ARE differences between my baptist background and the Catholics ... but there is much more that unites us.

I have also found this to be true - and this sort of forum (while it can bring out the worse in people) helps us to be more ecumenical, realizing that fellow Christians are not the "enemy", despite some differences.

Regards

 

[Pard]

Re: The Catholic Cross

I have also found this to be true - and this sort of forum (while it can bring out the worse in people) helps us to be more ecumenical, realizing that fellow Christians are not the "enemy", despite some differences

Mmmmhmmm. :yes

Especially find the presence of some catholics (well you and Dad, that's about it to my knowledge) neat. All the catholics I know are just "christian". I think that's a theme up here in the northeast. The protestants are for real and the catholics (for the most part) are for the tradition (IE, their family has always gone and so we will continue to go). I attended a catholic service a few times (with a friend) and I just got the vibe it was a total social hour.

So back to the point, it's nice to see that it isn't all RCC, just the ones around me. Very good to know, actually. (Lordy, speaking of grandmothers, mine would have a few words to say if she heard I was sharing good words with a catholic... )

 

[francisdesales]

Re: The Catholic Cross

Mmmmhmmm. :yes

Especially find the presence of some catholics (well you and Dad, that's about it to my knowledge) neat. All the catholics I know are just "christian". I think that's a theme up here in the northeast. The protestants are for real and the catholics (for the most part) are for the tradition (IE, their family has always gone and so we will continue to go). I attended a catholic service a few times (with a friend) and I just got the vibe it was a total social hour.

So back to the point, it's nice to see that it isn't all RCC, just the ones around me. Very good to know, actually. (Lordy, speaking of grandmothers, mine would have a few words to say if she heard I was sharing good words with a catholic... )

I think it is a change for the better, that we put aside polemics and keep our discussions on a higher plane, rather than feeling the need to sick the attack dogs on anyone who doesn't agree with "x".

Regards

 

[AKJVReader]

Re: The Catholic Cross

I have thought that the reason the Catholics put an image of there version of "Jesus" on a cross is because they believe that the wafer and the wine of there communion actually turns into the body and blood of Jesus. The Catholics think that Jesus has to keep sacrificing Himself over and over again, whereas many Christians know that Jesus died once and is risen! He is Alive in Heaven ruling as King of Kings and Lord of Lords forever!
And also the KJV Bible says not to make and not to worship graven images.

Exodus 20:
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Deuteronomy 5:
8 Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

Leviticus 26:
1 Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: The Catholic Cross

I have thought that the reason the Catholics put an image of there version of "Jesus" on a cross is because they believe that the wafer and the wine of there communion actually turns into the body and blood of Jesus.

That is not why we have the corpus of Christ on the cross...

The Catholics think that Jesus has to keep sacrificing Himself over and over again

No, we don't, get your story straight.

whereas many Christians know that Jesus died once and is risen! He is Alive in Heaven ruling as King of Kings and Lord of Lords forever!
And also the KJV Bible says not to make and not to worship graven images.

I worship Jesus Christ, not an image...

Regards

 

[Pizzaguy]

Re: The Catholic Cross

The Catholics think that Jesus has to keep sacrificing Himself over and over again...

Why not look at it THIS way: That they have him up there to REINFORCE every day, in the minds of Catholics (and the rest of us) what He went thru for us?

 

[francisdesales]

Re: The Catholic Cross

Why not look at it THIS way: That they have him up there to REINFORCE every day, in the minds of Catholics (and the rest of us) what He went thru for us?

Exactly correct, thanks.

We preach Christ crucified. Our salvation has been "bought" at a great price...

Regards

 

[Stormcrow]

Re: The Catholic Cross

Mary is among the saints we ask to pray for us.

This is one of those areas of doctrine where I part ways with my Catholic friends.

{5} For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB)

Christ is our only mediator: the High Priest who entered God's presence having offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice to God on our behalf for our redemption (Hebrews 9:11-12).

Therefore, we need no other intercessor before the father, as no other intercessor could or would be worthy.

{26} In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; {27} and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26-27 (NASB)

Our only mediator is also our only intercessor before the Father.

{34} who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Romans 8:34 (NASB)

Asking Mary or any of the departed saints to intercede for us before God is - at best - unnecessary: we already have the best mediator and intercessor before the Father night and day pleading our case and making prayers on our behalf.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: The Catholic Cross

This is one of those areas of doctrine where I part ways with my Catholic friends.

First, I would like to thank you for your defense of Catholicism, indirectly, on other threads. It is a pity that there are so many people out there who have been so misinformed on what the Church teaches and our position in society...

{5} For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5 (NASB)

Indeed, Christ is our only mediator. But please note the context in which Paul makes that statement... He is asking for prayers for others. Clearly, the idea of "mediator" differs from "intercessor", in Paul's mind, for he is not contradicting himself a few verses later.

In addition, as part of the Body of Christ, our prayers will ALWAYS go to the Father through Him, the Head, Jesus Christ.

Therefore, we need no other intercessor before the father, as no other intercessor could or would be worthy.

That is not the reason why God commands us to pray for others. It is not out of necessity, it is out of love. To me, LOVE is the key paradigm for what we do. Not "necessity". We are not a minimalistic church, but one that goes even to death to show our love. As did Christ. Remember, the prayers of a righteous person are truly effective. There must be a reason for that, and why Paul is asking for and praying for others in his letters.

{26} In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; {27} and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:26-27 (NASB)

Our only mediator is also our only intercessor before the Father.

Indeed, this very selection shows that the Spirit ALSO intercedes for us - and does so THROUGH our feeble attempts to pray.

Again, we are not replacing Christ or bypassing Jesus. All of our prayers are offered "to the Father, through the Son and with the Holy Spirit".

{34} who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Romans 8:34 (NASB)

Asking Mary or any of the departed saints to intercede for us before God is - at best - unnecessary: we already have the best mediator and intercessor before the Father night and day pleading our case and making prayers on our behalf.

If by 'unnecessary', you mean, is it required to ask Mary for prayers to enter heaven, I would say no. But I believe our relationship with God is not based on what is necessary, but on Love, which has a different standard.

Regards

 

[Stormcrow]

Re: The Catholic Cross

Regards

While I disagree with the doctrine of praying to saints, I don't believe Roman Catholics are heretics or apostates for doing so. Who am I to judge God's other workmen?

We are each held accountable for the truth we know. I certainly don't know everything, and therefore wouldn't presume to tell my Roman Catholic friends that I am the model of what a Christian should be. To me, that's arrogant presumption. If you believe with your heart that Christ is Lord, and confess with your mouth the same, that's good enough for me. It should be good enough for anyone else.

I - for one - am sick and tired of the 'holier-than-thou" attitude exhibited by some. When they can live the kind of life Mother Theresa, St. Francis of Assissi, or Pope John Paul II lived, then they'll have the right to judge people in the Roman Catholic Church. Until then, they're nothing but "sound and fury signifying nothing."

Thanks for the exchange.

Peace. Out.

 

[francisdesales]

Re: The Catholic Cross

While I disagree with the doctrine of praying to saints, I don't believe Roman Catholics are heretics or apostates for doing so. Who am I to judge God's other workmen?

That's a good attitude to have... The Spirit blows where He wills.

We are each held accountable for the truth we know. I certainly don't know everything, and therefore wouldn't presume to tell my Roman Catholic friends that I am the model of what a Christian should be. To me, that's arrogant presumption. If you believe with your heart that Christ is Lord, and confess with your mouth the same, that's good enough for me. It should be good enough for anyone else.

It should be, at least at the level of considering each other "brothers in Christ". We certainly have differences of opinions, but I have been able to navigate this forum while maintaining good contacts with my brothers and sisters who are not Catholic. I see that God works in all sorts of ways.

I - for one - am sick and tired of the 'holier-than-thou" attitude exhibited by some. When they can live the kind of life Mother Theresa, St. Francis of Assissi, or Pope John Paul II lived, then they'll have the right to judge people in the Roman Catholic Church. Until then, they're nothing but "sound and fury signifying nothing."

Me too. Religious pride is a very dangerous thing, because it is hard to detect it in oneself...

Thanks for the exchange.

Peace. Out.

God bless...;)

 

[AKJVReader]

Re: The Catholic Cross

While I disagree with the doctrine of praying to saints, I don't believe Roman Catholics are heretics or apostates for doing so. Who am I to judge God's other workmen?

Praying to saints is idolatry! Prayers are supposed to go to God not man!

Philippians 1:
9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;
10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

It should be, at least at the level of considering each other "brothers in Christ". We certainly have differences of opinions, but I have been able to navigate this forum while maintaining good contacts with my brothers and sisters who are not Catholic. I see that God works in all sorts of ways.

I do not regard catholics to be my brothers or sisters. I understand that there are different catholic groups but anyone that comes under the Pope as there leader is not my brother and sister, ask others here and see what they think.

We are each held accountable for the truth we know. I certainly don't know everything, and therefore wouldn't presume to tell my Roman Catholic friends that I am the model of what a Christian should be. To me, that's arrogant presumption. If you believe with your heart that Christ is Lord, and confess with your mouth the same, that's good enough for me. It should be good enough for anyone else.

[FONT=arial,helvatica]
That is only if you are sincere and you repent of your sins.
[/FONT]

 

[n2thelight]

Re: The Catholic Cross

OK, so maybe I am totally over-analyzing this but...

Why does the catholic cross depict Jesus on it? (I think other groups have this also, not just the catholics, but they are the ones that come to mind) It seems to me that Jesus isn't on that cross any more! Christianity began AFTER He came down from the cross. The cross ought to be empty.

Is there a symbolic reason that the RCC (and maybe others) have Jesus on the cross still? Or am I just over thinking this?:

I wear a cross with Christ on it and was asked the same question,answer being that He was on it

 

[AKJVReader]

Re: The Catholic Cross

Remember that the cross is a symbol of a curse. And no where in Scripture does it say that one should wear a cross if they are a Christian. Being a Christian is about what you believe in your heart, what you say and what you do in love for God and others.

Please read this concise information about the cross:

http://pdf.cftresources.com/2008_02-17__The Cross of Christ vs the Accursed Tree.pdf

 

[WIP]

Re: The Catholic Cross

While I disagree with the doctrine of praying to saints, I don't believe Roman Catholics are heretics or apostates for doing so. Who am I to judge God's other workmen?

We are each held accountable for the truth we know. I certainly don't know everything, and therefore wouldn't presume to tell my Roman Catholic friends that I am the model of what a Christian should be. To me, that's arrogant presumption. If you believe with your heart that Christ is Lord, and confess with your mouth the same, that's good enough for me. It should be good enough for anyone else.

I - for one - am sick and tired of the 'holier-than-thou" attitude exhibited by some. When they can live the kind of life Mother Theresa, St. Francis of Assissi, or Pope John Paul II lived, then they'll have the right to judge people in the Roman Catholic Church. Until then, they're nothing but "sound and fury signifying nothing."

Thanks for the exchange.

Peace. Out.

 

[WIP]

Re: The Catholic Cross

In our Lutheran church we display an empty cross. That doesn't imply that we don't recognize the crucifixion. The path to that empty cross included Christ crucified. Likewise, I know without doubt that the Catholic church is not stopping short at the crucifixion. They know full well the fulfillment that followed. Does this have to be a stumbling block?

 

[Julia1]

Re: The Catholic Cross

I thought it was just that purpetual catholic guilt thing, but anyway I do like your answer, now why do catholic pray to Mother Mary? whats that all about?

edited to add my prefrance is no body on the Cross.

Guilt is of the Devil.

Christ on the Cross is a display of His raw, naked love for us. It is meant to help Christians internalize what He did for us, and ultimately helps us to LOVE the cross and be willing to take it up ourselves.

 

[JMJ]

Re: The Catholic Cross

It is my understanding that Paul preached Christ crucified to keep this powerful image of Christ's suffering and dying for our sins constantly in our minds so that we will continue to choose to be slaves/sons of righteousness and thereby continue to live in Christ.

To live in Christ means to continue to live in obedience to His commands/gospel.

The saved persons who choose to do evil are no longer living in Christ and they have instead become slaves/sons of disobedience. These persons are now slaves of sin and they will remain so until they repent. If they die unrepentant they will not inherit eternal life. Christ will not grant eternal life to these unrepentant evildoers even though they were once saved.

Romans 6:17-19

Ephesians 5:5-7

Sons of disobedience are slaves of sin. They are no longer sons of God and they are no longer slaves of righteousness.

 

[stormcloud]

Re: The Catholic Cross

Regarding the Crucifix:

When Saul/Paul was knocked to the ground by a great light from Heaven, did the Lord ask him "why are you persecuting me?" instead of "why are you persecuting my Church/people?" Did Christ not suffer on the cross for the sake of sins committed past, present, and future? Does the Trinity not exist outside of time? Do we not crack the whip on his back or cast a blow with a hammer on one of the nails that pierced his hands/wrists and feet with every sin we commit? In light of all this, can it not be said that Christ is still on the cross?

regarding "graven images":

Right after Moses received the commandments, did he not also receive explicit instructions for the carving of cherubs to be put on the top of the ark of the covenant? Is it not possible that the commandment refers to images that lead to pagan worship and does NOT refer to images that point toward God?