The Destruction Of Jerusalem

[Lehigh3]

I see no evidence for this position anywhere in the scriptures. Can you defend this claim Biblically? I suspect we will end up disagreeing on the meaning of the phrase "spiritual body" as this term is used by Paul. I am prepared to argue that Paul uses this term to denote a physical body, but one that has been resurrected, and thus transformed.

Paul uses the seed analogy to describe the living. The "body" that is raised spiritual is Christ's "body" or "the corporate church" with its members representing individuals being transformed.
But bc of sin of Adam, man could not be with God in heaven, & was sequestered in Hades- until the time of Christ's atonement for mankind's sin. Then, after His ascension, He sat at the right hand of power in heaven while God made all his enemies his footstool. Then we see that Hades is destroyed. Paul said many times in Acts that God would raise the dead. The dead he referred to were the physically dead.
Therefore, those in Hades received their final inheritance in heaven after these sons of God were revealed, at the end of the age, in AD70.

And, Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from then on.

 

[Stormcrow]

This statement we agree on, except that you appear, from the "not of this world" teaching", to believe that Jesus' kingdom does not presently include "this present world" within its embrace. I think the Biblical case is exceedingly strong that it does.

I believe Jesus put all things (as Paul wrote) under subjection to God at the cross and - in turn - God made Him, who is the head of all things, head of the church.

Christ's reign as sovereign God is eternal with one exception: the time He laid aside His heavenly crown and came to earth as a man. He is the Alpha and Omega, and He reigns over everything, then, now and forevermore; king of kings and Lord of lords.

Only He, therefore, had the authority to open the seals of judgment on Jerusalem (Revelation 5).

I apologize if anything I wrote previously led you to conclude that this is not my position.

 

[Stormcrow]

Are you suggesting that there will no "resurrection" of "dead" believers in the sense of such believers, whose bodies are presently decomposing in the ground, being given new physical bodies.

I do not see how such a position - that there will be no future bodily resurrection - can survive Biblical muster. But, if you believe otherwise, we can talk about that.

{1} "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued. {2} "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt. Daniel 12:1-2 (NASB)

{9} He said, "Go your way, Daniel, for these words are concealed and sealed up until the end time. Daniel 12:9 (NASB)

{13} "But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age." Daniel 12:13 (NASB)

{28} "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, {29} and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. John 5:28-29 (NASB)

{52} The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; {53} and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many. Matthew 27:52-53 (NASB)

{16} For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 1 Thessalonians 4:16 (NASB)

{31} "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other. Matthew 24:31 (NASB)

{20} But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep. 1 Corinthians 15:20 (NASB)

{22} For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. {23} But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming, {24} then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 1 Corinthians 15:22-24 (NASB)

{52} in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. 1 Corinthians 15:52 (NASB)


{15} Then the seventh angel sounded; and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever." Revelation 11:15 (NASB)

{18} "And the nations were enraged, and Your wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to reward Your bond-servants the prophets and the saints and those who fear Your name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth [Lit. "the land"]." Revelation 11:18 (NASB)

The point of all these verses, starting with those verses in Daniel 12, is to demonstrate that the resurrection of the dead came at the end of the age. Which age? The end of the age of the Old Covenant, which was completely and irrevocably fulfilled in 70AD with the final destruction of the temple and the sacrifices that were part of it.

It was a resurrection for Daniel and his people.

Again, people need to read these prophecies through the eyes of the Jews, not 21st century American Evangelicals.

As to your assertion I have no Biblical support for this:

I do not see how such a position - that there will be no future bodily resurrection - can survive Biblical muster.

Paul addresses it better than I:

{1} For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. {2} For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, 2 Corinthians 5:1-2 (NASB)

{8} we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8 (NASB)

Those who believe in Christ go straight to the Father to receive their new "building from God...eternal in the heavens." Not my words: Paul's.

 

[n2thelight]

Those who believe in Christ go straight to the Father to receive their new "building from God...eternal in the heavens." Not my words: Paul's.

So when do those who don't sleep(die)get there new building

 

[Stormcrow]

So when do those who don't sleep(die)get there new building

I think Paul makes that perfectly clear in the verses I provided from 2nd Corinthians. If you have a problem with them, why don't you ask him when you see him?

 

[Stormcrow]

{24} For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; {25} nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. {26} Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. {27} And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment, {28} so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him. Hebrews 9:24-28 (NASB)

All the "ages" were consummated in Christ and His sacrifice. So when Daniel is told:

{13} "But as for you, go your way to the end; then you will enter into rest and rise again for your allotted portion at the end of the age." Daniel 12:13 (NASB)

And we have tombs being emptied at the time of Christ's death and resurrection, it's clear to me to whom and for whom the promise of the resurrection was made.

As to those of us who believe, we go from "life to life" therefore obviating the need for any such resurrection.

Yes, there was a bodily resurrection of the dead that happened in keeping with the promises of the Old Covenant. We live in the New.

For what it's worth.

 

[francisdesales]

All the "ages" were consummated in Christ and His sacrifice. So when Daniel is told:



And we have tombs being emptied at the time of Christ's death and resurrection, it's clear to me to whom and for whom the promise of the resurrection was made.

As to those of us who believe, we go from "life to life" therefore obviating the need for any such resurrection.

Yes, there was a bodily resurrection of the dead that happened in keeping with the promises of the Old Covenant. We live in the New.

For what it's worth.

To add to what you and Drew have said....

The prayer of the early Christians - "come Lord" and "He has come", taken from the versatile word "Marantha"... Thus, we will find "it is consummated" and "not yet" when speaking of Christian eschatology.

Let us remember that the Apostles were JOYFUL when Jesus LEFT them after the Ascension. This can only makes sense IF the Apostles understood that, although Jesus had left to the Father, that He would still be present to them in some alternative manner, which brings joy.

He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. Rev 22:20

Regards

 

[Lehigh3]

by Francesdesales,

The prayer of the early Christians - "come Lord" and "He has come", taken from the versatile word "Marantha"... Thus, we will find "it is consummated" and "not yet" when speaking of Christian eschatology.

Tradition makes the word "versatile" when speaking of eschatology. If He didn't return as the early Christians said come, Lord come- as were promised literally- then it is NOT consummated. Salvation & Redemption.

It is clear that Rev.22 was also to happen "soon" in John's day. That's the time of the consummation, which is a fulfillment of both sotieriology & eschatology.

 

[Asyncritus]

Let us remember that the Apostles were JOYFUL when Jesus LEFT them after the Ascension.

That may not be correct.

He has to tell them not to mourn:

Jn 14.18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


The apostles expected Him to return immediately.

Therefore, they stood gazing up into heaven. He didn't return then, but the words of v11 leave no doubt that He will return, and hasn't done so yet:

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Therefore:

1 The same Jesus

2 Will come as visibly as He went into heaven, ie 'with clouds'

Any suggestions that He is already here, or returned in the 1stC are therefore wrong. As Rev 1 says:

7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him: and they also that pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen.

 

[Lehigh3]

Therefore:

1 The same Jesus

2 Will come as visibly as He went into heaven, ie 'with clouds'

Any suggestions that He is already here, or returned in the 1stC are therefore wrong. As Rev 1 says:

7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him: and they also that pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen.

I have the interpretations for both of those questions of yours. I am not suggesting He returned in the 1st century AD, the Bible says it would happen - then.

Every Eye Shall See Him | Planet Preterist


QUESTION 15: Acts 1:11 says that Jesus is going to come back in the SAME manner He left. My Bible says He left visibly and physically. You, on the other hand, say He will not come back in the flesh. How do you defend yourself against Acts 1:11, a verse that is an obvious contradiction of preterism?

ANSWER: The Lord was going to come in the same manner as He entered heaven. How did He enter heaven? Hidden from the eyes in a Cloud. (vs. 9) He was going to "come in like manner."

The apostles wanted Jesus to come out of the Cloud, to be lowered back down and to be with them again in the flesh. But the two men corrected the apostles by telling them that Jesus was going to come, not in the manner He left, but in the manner He entered Heaven. The Coming of the Son with His Father to indwell the Church was not going to be a coming in His flesh, but in His Divinity, in the Glory-Cloud of Yahweh God. (I Tim. 3:16)

The spiritual nature of Christ's Parousia is confirmed by a comparison of Matt. 16:28 and Lk. 17:21: In Matt. 16:28, Jesus taught that His Coming was going to be "in His Kingdom." In Lk. 17:20-21, He taught that His Kingdom was going to come "not with observation." If the Kingdom was going to come "not with observation," then it follows also that the King in that Kingdom (II Cor. 4:18) was also going to come "not with observation."

 

[francisdesales]

That may not be correct.

He has to tell them not to mourn:

Jn 14.18 ¶ I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.


The apostles expected Him to return immediately.

Where do these verses state that Jesus would immediately return???

Do not be troubled, Jesus will be with us always. This is not understood until after the Resurrection. Of course Jesus is trying to comfort them prior to the Resurrection, when they know He must go to the cross, and they have no clue about "rising from the dead" yet.

Therefore, they stood gazing up into heaven. He didn't return then, but the words of v11 leave no doubt that He will return, and hasn't done so yet:

11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

He has "gone to the Father to sit at His right hand", but God is not literally "sitting" anywhere, since He is everywhere. It is a position of power and authority. Jesus "went to the Father" as an indication of His glory and power. He remains to us, present, just as God the Father, as He promised to be with us always

Jesus states this in Matthew just before His Ascension...

I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Mat 28:20

Therefore:

1 The same Jesus

2 Will come as visibly as He went into heaven, ie 'with clouds'

He has not manifest Himself in THAT manner, but it doesn't follow that He is not present even now!!!

He will make Himself manifest. Now, He is invisible. Just as at the Transfiguration, Moses and Elijah were made manifest, made visible. That Jesus left and is "not here" does not explain their joy... The joy is only explained by the fact that He would be with them always, even if not VISIBLY manifest. He is with us through the breaking of the bread, through the Word, through other Christians whom we meet.

Any suggestions that He is already here, or returned in the 1stC are therefore wrong. As Rev 1 says...

7 Behold, he cometh with the clouds, and every eye shall see him: and they also that pierced him. And all the tribes of the earth shall bewail themselves because of him. Even so. Amen.

Of course, visibly seen, see above. Jesus, being True God and True Man, can be present here among us in a form that we do not recognize, just as the Apostles did not recognize the Christ immediately following the Resurrection. Jesus said "where two or more are gathered in together in my name, there I am in the midst of them ". Matthew confirms this in the last sentence of his gospel. He is invisibly present to us, right now. Thus, Jesus can tell Saul "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute ME"...

Jesus is present and abides in those who are "in Christ", buried with Him through Baptism. Thus, the Good News - Jesus REMAINS present to us! At the end, He will manifest Himself for all to visibly see.

Regards

 

[jasoncran]

if one chooses and the lord wills you can feel the presence of God when you pray and in worship. he is in heavean but that doesnt meant he left us without comfort the holy spirit is just as like jesus.