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[_ Old Earth _] The Development Stage Is Fatal

Bronzesnake said:
If you have any proof for that assertion, I'd like to see it.
In any case, If we believe there was life and death prior to Adam and Eve, then God lied to us about sin being the reason for death and that the first sin was perpetrated by Adam and Eve.
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Did Adam physically die on the very day that he ate from that fruit even in a literal interpretation? No, he didn't. So even in a literal interpretation the death that it is about is not physical, but spiritual.

Or do you also propose that carnivorous animals did not use their fangs, that venomous snakes did not use their poison before the fall? There are many animals that couldn't survive on a vegetarian diet, as their teeth and digestive tract is unsuitable for it.

But hey, go ahead and take a huge bite of the tree of knowledge of good and evil my friends, it didn’t work out too good for Adam and Eve and it won’t work out too good for us either.
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Do you notice how you used "eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil" as a metaphor here? Exactly that's how it's supposed to be understood in Genesis as well.
 
Barbarian observes:
Man came later. Again, if you'd spend some time with the Bible, it might help.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your argument, but come on, Barb: We can be more civilized than this.
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It's there in Genesis for anyone to see. Don't we have some responsibility to at least try? BTW, do you think I did better than this:

Barbarian, you might impress your little buddies with this foolishness but you simply don't have the skull capacity to get your clap trap by me my friend. :lol
Actually it really goes to show your complete ignorance of scripture Barbarian.
I’ll give you a free lesson, pay attention and you might learn something.

I certainly hope so.
 
by jwu on Fri May 21, 2010 7:02 am

Bronzesnake wrote:
If you have any proof for that assertion, I'd like to see it.
In any case, If we believe there was life and death prior to Adam and Eve, then God lied to us about sin being the reason for death and that the first sin was perpetrated by Adam and Eve.Did Adam physically die on the very day that he ate from that fruit even in a literal interpretation? No, he didn't. So even in a literal interpretation the death that it is about is not physical, but spiritual.

ah if we are to assume that his death is only spiritual then what of the promises given in the bible


the meek shall inherit the earth, not heaven. we dont stay in heaven forever

two would you call the death of you son who knew no sin, and died in agony (while in paradise) a blessing?

three why does the bible say that there is no sickness, death, or sorrow in the new heaven and earth.

for if the Lord wanted men to die without respect to their sin, why would it matter in revalation and thats when he comes to dwell with man on the new earth.


we are going to live on the earth forever not in heaven.

why is death allowed? as a conseqence of sin.

for its appointed to unto all men death then the judgment.

if adam and eve didnt sin what is the purpose of death. and sickness

after the fall its to show men that God is needed and to be sought after as he uses it glorify himself and draw us to him. but before the fall theres no need for that as adam and eve were closer to God then any of us can be this side of heavan
 
The Barbarian said:
Barbarian observes:
Man came later. Again, if you'd spend some time with the Bible, it might help.

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with your argument, but come on, Barb: We can be more civilized than this.
Click to expand...

It's there in Genesis for anyone to see. Don't we have some responsibility to at least try? BTW, do you think I did better than this:

Barbarian, you might impress your little buddies with this foolishness but you simply don't have the skull capacity to get your clap trap by me my friend. :lol
Actually it really goes to show your complete ignorance of scripture Barbarian.
I’ll give you a free lesson, pay attention and you might learn something.

I certainly hope so.
Click to expand...

Fair enough.
 
we have been harsh to your on our questioning. i try not attack you personally. you have far more patience then i would. that i admire
 
Scientists, when they disagree, are at least as harsh with each other as you have been with me. I don't see that you've been anything but direct and blunt with me.

And I admire that.
 
The Barbarian said:
Scientists, when they disagree, are at least as harsh with each other as you have been with me. I don't see that you've been anything but direct and blunt with me.

And I admire that.
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Yeah, but Jason and Barb, we're not just scientists (professionally or avocationally), but also Christian brothers. I'd like to think we're Christians first. What are Christ's teachings concerning how we should treat one another?
 
of course, i do see that. as hard as thiestic evolution is for me to grasp.
in debate it tends to get adversarial. that is bad.

to be honest when i first came to this site i wasnt sure what barb believed in, and that he was christian.
i had to observe him. and while i dont agree with him i cant say that he isnt a follower of christ.

just a christian who has a far different views on things that arent salvinic in nature. i can now understand those other thiestic evolutionists on this site and on fb that i have debated. i am grateful for.

we are to uplift each other in his name.
 
Yeah, but Jason and Barb, we're not just scientists (professionally or avocationally), but also Christian brothers. I'd like to think we're Christians first. What are Christ's teachings concerning how we should treat one another?
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As I said, I admire direct talk. I am not offended by it, and I respect those who are blunt and can handle direct talk from others.
 
you have certainly challenged me in my views and i have had to look at creationism a lot closer then before. you have forced me to understand the arguments of evolution vs creationism better and regain a like for science that i once had.
 
Well, then, it's been profitable for both of us. I've had to look closely at how I understand the origin of Man as a creation of God. Let steel sharpen steel.
 
the meek shall inherit the earth, not heaven. we dont stay in heaven forever

two would you call the death of you son who knew no sin, and died in agony (while in paradise) a blessing?
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I don't understand...please elaborate.

three why does the bible say that there is no sickness, death, or sorrow in the new heaven and earth.

for if the Lord wanted men to die without respect to their sin, why would it matter in revalation and thats when he comes to dwell with man on the new earth.

we are going to live on the earth forever not in heaven.
Click to expand...
That new earth could very well be a spiritual place though, couldn't it?
(I do tend to reject the book of revelation though)

why is death allowed? as a conseqence of sin.
Click to expand...
Spiritual death makes more sense as a consequence of sin than physical death though, doesn't it? Sin taints the soul - who cares about the body?
I believe that "eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil" refers to the intellectual maturing of mankind to the point that they gained a concept of good and evil. From that point on man became accountable for any sin, thus sin could mean spiritual death for him. Before knowing good from evil man was innocent even in case of misdeeds, as he didn't know any better. Hence no spiritual death - his soul was clean, no "trouble ahead" after physical death.

if adam and eve didnt sin what is the purpose of death. and sickness
Click to expand...
What is the point of it if they did sin? It makes no sense to me either way, if interpreted that way. I think it makes more sense to view it as a tale about the origin of sin in the sense as that tells us about how simple misdeeds became sins through knowledge of good and evil. Without that knowledge, they're just misdeeds that one isn't held accountable for by God (think of the age of accountability concept for children). With knowledge of good and evil one becomes accountable for them to God.

The whole idea that eating from that tree was the very first "real, counting" sin makes no sense to me because without knowledge of good and evil, how could Adam and Eve have known that it is evil to disobey God? The event that it metaphorically describes is the origin of sin (as in, it made it possible for man to commit a sin), but i don't think that it was the actual first sin.

Anyway, you obviously disagree with my interpretation. What is your explanation for life's dependency on physical death though? I.e. carnivores need to kill and feed upon prey. They cannot survive on a vegetaran diet - would that not have been so before the fall as well? How about problems with overpopulation if there is no physical death to counterbalance the population size?
 
The Barbarian said:
That's what happens to you, when you let truth become more important than winning... :thumb
Click to expand...

And I truly believe that many of us Christians on this forum feel that their view is correct. But as Jason said, many of the debates we have are non-salvation issues. As long as we believe God is responsible for our creation, that Christ died on the cross to pay for our sins, and the way to salvation is through faith in Jesus' work alone, then we are saved. Yes, simplistic, but you get the idea.

Creed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fx1tXRnN ... re=related

http://www.christianlyricsonline.com/ar ... creed.html
 
jwu said:
the meek shall inherit the earth, not heaven. we dont stay in heaven forever

two would you call the death of you son who knew no sin, and died in agony (while in paradise) a blessing?
Click to expand...
I don't understand...please elaborate.he dies while god does nothing to save that child and you ask him. this is assumed for arguement that you have no need for the blood of christ, you are without sin. where does his soul go? heaven isnt meant for men, nor hell? if no sin has occured from your or your child

[quote:8lgxji6s]three why does the bible say that there is no sickness, death, or sorrow in the new heaven and earth.
promised in the book in revalation
for if the Lord wanted men to die without respect to their sin, why would it matter in revalation and thats when he comes to dwell with man on the new earth.see above

we are going to live on the earth forever not in heaven.
Click to expand...
That new earth could very well be a spiritual place though, couldn't it?
(I do tend to reject the book of revelation though)

why is death allowed? as a conseqence of sin.
Click to expand...
Spiritual death makes more sense as a consequence of sin than physical death though, doesn't it? Sin taints the soul - who cares about the body?
I believe that "eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil" refers to the intellectual maturing of mankind to the point that they gained a concept of good and evil. From that point on man became accountable for any sin, thus sin could mean spiritual death for him. Before knowing good from evil man was innocent even in case of misdeeds, as he didn't know any better. Hence no spiritual death - his soul was clean, no "trouble ahead" after physical death.
because werent angels when we die! we arent mean to be in heavan forever, nor hell.the body if it didnt matter then would you care when you die! I know. even though i know i'm saved. death wont be pleaseant.
it will take th peace of god to calm me. even with that promise of salvation we do miss the the loved ones as we do care for them.
if adam and eve didnt sin what is the purpose of death. and sickness
Click to expand...
What is the point of it if they did sin? It makes no sense to me either way, if interpreted that way. I think it makes more sense to view it as a tale about the origin of sin in the sense as that tells us about how simple misdeeds became sins through knowledge of good and evil. Without that knowledge, they're just misdeeds that one isn't held accountable for by God (think of the age of accountability concept for children). With knowledge of good and evil one becomes accountable for them to God.

The whole idea that eating from that tree was the very first "real, counting" sin makes no sense to me because without knowledge of good and evil, how could Adam and Eve have known that it is evil to disobey God? The event that it metaphorically describes is the origin of sin (as in, it made it possible for man to commit a sin), but i don't think that it was the actual first sin they were told not to eat the tree. they did. that was the sin..

Anyway, you obviously disagree with my interpretation. What is your explanation for life's dependency on physical death though? I.e. carnivores need to kill and feed upon prey. They cannot survive on a vegetaran diet - would that not have been so before the fall as well? How about problems with overpopulation if there is no physical death to counterbalance the population size?[/quote:8lgxji6s]
 
again if we mate evolution the creation story, what of the first adam and eve? they alone only sinned?if they did and others didnt were are the others?

dead? and where? heaven for what? if so they could have died for us as they knew no sin and were perfect and able to fulfill the law.

do you see that conudrum for a lot of questions on why this or that arrises with adam and eve.

the prophetic statement by god when he told eve that a seed of woman shall crush satan and satan shall bruise the hell of the seed.

adam is in the lineage of jesus. if they were only a literally device what then? what of those didnt sin, if only adam and eve did and were cast out from the presence of the lord whom did the men mate with each other( sister).

i dont know all these answers and no man ever will. God wanted us to focus more on the general idea that adam and eve did exist and the men and woman mentioned. and learn from them.

evolution to me cant fit in as its makes a whole lot of hard questions on the end time prophetic vision of john.


i dont call dying on the new earth and coming back again to reapeat a paradise. nor the begining the same.
 
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