The difference in the rapture and the second coming

[Donovb]

I do not believe the whole church will be murdered when he comes after the Great Tribulation but before his wrath, otherwise he wouldn't of said that those remain will be called up and the dead will rise first. But the pre-trib rapture is impossible, Hes coming back between the 6th snd 7th seal as stated in Revelation clearly, it still blows my mind that people still think that the first 6 seals are Gods Wrath. If that were the case than God is killing the christians in the 5th seal, and we know that's not correct.

 

[n2thelight]

More on the spirit of slumber

'Spirit of Slumber' and 'Strong Delusion;' Grace for the timid:

Here is where the grace of God enters in. As it is written, God has blinded many to the truth. This is written as:"God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear; unto this day" {Rom 11:7-11}, and spoken as those who:"Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not" {Isa 6:9-11}, and again:"For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered" {Isa 29:10}.... God does this not as a punishment, but rather as a gift by His grace. Let me explain.

God knows that many are too weak spiritually to stand against the greatest deception that has ever, or ever will be unleashed upon mankind; which is (satan's) imitating and impersonating the true Messiah Jesus Christ: "For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be" {Mark 13:19}. I mean really, look around you, even among those who profess to be Christians, how many of them really have even a clue of the plan of God as set forth in the Bible, BOTH the Old Testament and New Testaments? The average Christian today cannot even identify the name of many of the Old Testament books, many even have Bibles that have no Old Testament in them (satan must love that one!). Did not Jesus Himself say of the Old Testament Law (Gen- Duet) and the Prophets (Isaiah, Ezekiel, Malachi...):

Matt 5:17-18 (Jesus speaking)17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. (KJV)

For the New Testament is the fulfillment of the prophecies and promises of the Old Testament. How will the Christian ever know what is to befall this world if he doesn't read the prophecies?
But anyway, in the below Scripture we see that the spiritual blindness placed upon the people by God Himself is a protection that they may be spared the judgment due to a 'satan worshiper,' because they have none understanding in what they shall do. Many will be taught in the Millennium {Rev 20:4-5}, and then they will be tested when satan is once again released from the Pit {Rev 20:7-8}. Then it is on to Judgment Day {Rev 20:11-15}.

But do not think that this is a second chance, there are no second chances! It is just that by the grace of God many are blinded in such a fashion that they did not have a real first chance to resist satan. For God knows that they are weak people, but not evil people none the less.

However lest someone think that they can con God: Voluntary ignorance is not a valid excuse on Judgment Day! So if you have an unction to learn the truth and if this plan of God as written to us in His Bible makes sense to you, do not try to play ignorant hoping to fall into the category of the spiritually blinded. God is not one to play with and He cannot be fooled. If this makes any sense to you at all, it could be that God wishes to use you. But you are only of good assistance and obedience to your Heavenly Father if you study and understand His Word and His plan. If all of this sounds like 'science fiction' to the reader, then go back to sleep and hopefully for your sake we shall see you in {Ezek 44:23} which are the events that transpire in the prophesied Millennium teaching period of {Rev 20:4}.

Rom 11:7-117 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. (KJV)

 

[Donovb]

I never said the whole Church will be martyred

Here's the point,at death ALL return to God, v17 simply means that those alive at the 2nd coming will be changed to like those who have already passed...We can't prevent those who are sleep(dead)for the simple fact that they are already with Him....That's how they come back with Him when He returns......

And Im not ranting unless you consider scripture ranting,if so,that I shall keep doing....Again find me one verse in all of scripture which states the Church will be gone before the tribulation......

Bottom line Christ comes here at the last trump,which is the 7th,so simple.....

Ok, did the Scriptures tell us in what manner Jesus Christ shall return to us at the Second Advent. You know it did, as the Scriptures tell us of all things. In the book of Acts, we see Christ leaving the earth and returning to Heaven where He is seated at the right hand of God till this day. Let's join in on the last conversation that Christ had face-to-face with His Disciples:

Acts 1:6-12
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; (KJV)
Oh-oh, there's that word 'clouds' again. The Rapturist is twitching right about now. Let's allow the two Angels of God (the two men stood in white apparel) to clarify what this means for us in the next verse:
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.
12 Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. (KJV)

Does this say that they will someday be raptured up into a cloud to go to Jesus, or, does it say that Jesus shall RETURN to them the SAME way He left them on the earth, from the Mount of Olives at Jerusalem? The term 'clouds' simply refers to innumerable company of Angels in the Heavens that met Christ at the ascension from the Mount of Olives and the same that shall return with Him at the Second Advent to execute wrath upon a disobedient world who is worshiping the false christ, and terminate this earth age. I bet our Sunday-schoolers got it right. But like I said, whenever the rapturist sees the word 'clouds' his mind gets cloudy.

It also speaks of the Second Advent in { Rev 1:7} where it states that Christ will appear with clouds (multitudes) and come down to earth. It says in {Zech 14:4} that His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives. If at Jesus Christ' next (and only) coming, He is standing on the Mount of Olives, where in the heck did the Rapture saints go prior to this, and with whom did they go? Answer: They were taken in deception by the first messiah, the false messiah, the false christ antichrist. They didn't physically go anywhere, they just spiritually whored after the wrong christ, the antichrist, which is to say satan. Is this not crystal clear?!?
In their fear, the rapturist has devised an imaginary escape plan from the end-time prophesies of God. Oh how satan loves to play upon fear. They would be better to have faith that God shall protect them as He has promised them that He would during the Great Tribulation. Stand up and act like a man, woman, or child of God and quit cowering to satan, he cannot hurt those who have the seal of God in their forehead, that is to say, God's truth! Learn the truth and be set free from the bondage of fear.

Are you saying that God comes after The Great Tribulation but Before his wrath or after his wrath after the last vial is poured? There no scripture that says were going through his wrath, but we will go through Great Tribulation.

 

[n2thelight]

That means that you take the Mark or......it ain't pretty.

What's not pretty...What can not taking the mark do to someone that has'nt been done to Christians throughout time.....Getting your head chopped off?Christians have been through much worse.....

The problem I see with rapturist is, they fail to understand what the tribulation is all about....It can't be death,as we are told to fear not those who can kill the body,satan included.....

 

[n2thelight]

Are you saying that God comes after The Great Tribulation but Before his wrath or after his wrath after the last vial is poured? There no scripture that says were going through his wrath, but we will go through Great Tribulation.

satan gets kicked out of Heaven at the ,6th trump,6th seal and the 6th vial....Christ returns at the 7th trump 7th seal and 7th vial....His wrath comes when He does,but it's only directed against those who have not the truth and followed satan as the antichrist,thinking him to be the true Christ......

Those with the truth,ie the seal of God are covered by the blood,sorta like back in the day when the plagues came to Egypt,and they put they put the blood on the door...The death angel could not touch them...

 

[n2thelight]

Bible Question Challenge: How Many Advents Of Christ?His birth and return = two,how you all come up with three is beyond me.........

 

[JLB]

Because you are trying to "figure it out". You have quoted numerous Scriptures, and posted several posts, but none of those Scripture prove that there is no pre-tribulation Rapture.

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 1 Thessalonians 4:17


This verse clearly shows the Resurrected ones and the Raptured ones caught up together, at His Coming.

The Coming is after the Tribulation.

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. Matthew 24:29-31

Jesus was speaking to His disciples privately.

Jesus was teaching those who would go out and make disciples and bring the gentiles into the church.

Jesus was passing on to these future Church leaders, a private lesson about His Coming and the end of the age.

These future Church leaders were to make disciples and teach the Church these very things.

This is the answer to the question that was asked of Him by His disciples -

And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?

His Coming and the end of the age and the Resurrection of the dead in Christ [which comes before the rapture] is after the tribulation.


JLB

 

[n2thelight]

Question,are there two last trumps?

The fundamental error in all the 'Rapture' scenarios is that they all, in one fashion or another, believe that at some point in time only a portion of the people will be removed. First of all, they misunderstand the Bible when it says that "all will be changed" to read "will be Raptured' The change is a change of body, it is us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. and this happens to ALL people on the earth at Christ's coming AT THE SAME TIME! It is the consummation of the age, which is the beginning of the Millennium.

The below Scripture speaks of us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. Those who are asleep (dead) have already changed into their spiritual body at the moment of their individual deaths. Their flesh corpse is the only thing in the grave. But those who shall still be living when Christ returns must also go into their spiritual bodies, but they are changed without actually dying a flesh death, they just discard these flesh 'Tabernacles' and the spiritual man emerges. For the in the Millennium we are no longer in our flesh bodies, but rather, we are in our spiritual bodies.

1 Cor 15:51-55
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? (KJV)

Revelation 11:15 "And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of Our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever."

Same event,why do you all(rapturist seperate them?I know the answer,and the reason is because if you admit it the whole rapture doctrine flies out the window........

There's only one last trump the 7th!!!!!!!!!!

 

[n2thelight]

“‘You will not surely die,’ the serpent said to the woman.” (Gen 3:4)

 

[Malachi]

The change is a change of body, it is us going from our flesh body into our spiritual body. and this happens to ALL people on the earth at Christ's coming AT THE SAME TIME!

If what you say is true, then Christ would not have spoken about "the resurrection of life" and "the resurrection of damnation" (Jn 5:29). The first is for those "that have done good" and is indeed called "the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5,6). The second is for those "that have done evil".

So the question that you must ask yourself is this: "Is God rewarding the damned with incorruptible, immortal, and glorious bodies?" 1 Cor 15: 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Obviously not. Then why are you asserting that this Scripture applies "to ALL people on earth... AT THE SAME TIME"?

So the next question you should be asking yourself is "When is the resurrection of the just, and when is the resurrection of the unjust?" (Lk 14:14), since they simply cannot be at the same time. Hopefully, you will then understand the meaning of the Rapture.

 

[n2thelight]

If what you say is true, then Christ would not have spoken about "the resurrection of life" and "the resurrection of damnation" (Jn 5:29). The first is for those "that have done good" and is indeed called "the first resurrection" (Rev 20:5,6). The second is for those "that have done evil".

So the question that you must ask yourself is this: "Is God rewarding the damned with incorruptible, immortal, and glorious bodies?" 1 Cor 15: 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Obviously not. Then why are you asserting that this Scripture applies "to ALL people on earth... AT THE SAME TIME"?

So the next question you should be asking yourself is "When is the resurrection of the just, and when is the resurrection of the unjust?" (Lk 14:14), since they simply cannot be at the same time. Hopefully, you will then understand the meaning of the Rapture.

I Corinthians 15:51 "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"

This is a mystery that Paul is going to reveal to us that had been hidden until Paul's writing. This mystery concerns what happens at a particular point in time, for at that instant, there will be no more death. "Sleep" as used here, is # 2838 in the Strong's Greek Dictionary; "Koimesis, koy'-may-sis; from 2837, to put to sleep." We read in # 2837; "Koimao, Koy-mah'-o; to put to sleep, to decease, to be dead."
So a time is coming when all the people on the face of the earth will never see death in their flesh bodies again. This is the mystery that Paul is going to tell us; when this event shall take place.

I Corinthians 15:52 "In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."

On the first day of the Millennium age, the "Kingdom of Heaven" will be with us on earth. You cannot enter that kingdom age in a flesh body. Therefore, it is written in verse 52 that all will be changed, in the wink of an eye, and at the last trump (seventh trump). When that seventh trump sounds, everyone on earth will be changed to an incorruptible body.

That doesn't have anything to do with your soul, or its condition. Your physical body and your spiritual body (soul) have nothing to do with the condition of one another. Your soul is your inner man that will exist in your current flesh body, and either at death or at the seventh trump, will be changed and enter into a new body (spirit body) which will not be subject to the decay this flesh body is subject to.

So, to understand what will occur in the Millennium age, you must understand that instantly following the seventh trump, all flesh bodies simply do not have life. Not one person will exist in the flesh. Every person will have the same capabilities and all will have the understanding to be taught without Satan's influence.
However, only those saints of God who have died in the flesh, or who lived and stood against Satan will take part in the first resurrection. By that I mean, will have an active part with Jesus Christ in His kingdom and reign, as he rules and teaches the earth for one thousand years, and live in their immortal soul bodies. (There will be those who stumble for a short time and bow to satan, but they will repent before the seventh trumpet. Daniel 11:34 and still be part of the first resurrection - because they repented prior to the end of this flesh age).

I Corinthians 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality."

The word "mortal" as used here in the Greek manuscripts never applies to a physical body, but it applies to your soul. So we see our physical bodies are gone at the seventh trump, and the mortal (soul) must put on immortality. That soul becomes your existence in the Millennium age. When the time of judgment comes at the end of the Millennium, you will enter eternity with Christ, or you will cease to exist --

 

[n2thelight]

Revelation 20:12"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."

Why are these people called the dead?Because they have yet to put on immortality

Notice there are two sets of books here. The first called "The Books" is to judge the unsaved. The second is the "Book of Life" where only the names of the saved are recorded. The saved have had their sins removed from God's judgment and booted out. Though they were committed, the blood of Christ has covered them from being used against us.

Notice how all souls are judged "according to their works". Does it talk about faith here after the Millennium? No. The "great white throne judgment" will not take faith into consideration. The first resurrection takes faith into consideration. That was back on "the Lord's day". That was Jesus Christ's "great day". On the last day of the Millennium age, souls are judged by works only.
Why are you judged for works only? Faith is something hoped for but unseen. You don't see Jesus Christ on earth today, you will see his wonderful works, and be led by Him and His Spirit in the Millennium age. Today He is in heaven and not walking on this earth. However, in the millennium, He will be on earth, and all will have full intelligence, with full recall and will be taught. The Heavenly Father honors all those with grace, that have accepted His Son by faith through repentance without Christ's physical presence here on earth, if you believed in His Word.

To those who are not under grace in the Millennium, their salvation will be only through and by their works. For faith doesn't exist to them. There will be no ignorance, physical handicap, for you will see, know, and experience Our Lord first hand.

If you follow the Antichrist, the first Christ to appear, you will have forfeited your salvation in this earth age. You will not be under the grace of God, and your works will be the only thing that matters on the last day of the Millennium, the day of judgment. They will be judged by works alone, for they have seen Jesus Christ, and are without excuse. The "rapture theory" leaves believers defenseless against Satan, for they will be taken in by Satan's deceptions.

 

[n2thelight]

Ephesians 6:11 "Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil."

Shortly, Michael will cast Satan out of heaven [Revelation 12:7], and he will be on the earth in person ruling as the Antichrist. When the spirit of Antichrist rules, God will also give His elect the Spirit and power of the Holy Spirit; which will have power to subdue all evil spirits. In Luke 10:18, Jesus said; "We have the power over all our enemies", and Satan is our enemy.

Revelation 12:7 "And there was war in heaven: Mi'-cha-el and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,,"

Revelation 12:8 "And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."

Revelation 12:9 "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Sa'-tan, which deceived the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him."

Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh ad blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

Now do tell why would we need to have the whole armour of God on,if we were not going to be here when satan arrives live and in person???????