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The difference in the rapture and the second coming

Not the first but the third Heaven (2 Cor 12:2). Yes there are countless saints in Heaven right now. What will happen on the day of the Rapture is that the bodies of these saints will be resurrected and glorified, and their souls and spirits brought from Heaven will be joined to them. These saints will return with Christ along with the ones who are alive at His coming, who are also transformed into perfect glorified saints (John 14:1-3;1 Cor 15:35-57; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Jn 3:1-3).

None of this will be seen by the world, so if you want to call it "secret", or "hidden from sinners", or "exclusively for the Church", you can pick whatever terminology suits you. The fact of the matter is that this event IS NOT FOUND IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION.
John 14:1-3 had nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture, why couldn't he be preparing a place for us when we return at a post-trib rapture? 1Cor 15:35-37 the ones that are asleep are the non believers, what does this have to do with a pre-trib rapture. 1 Thess 4 13:18 is clearly in Revelation 7 its the same thing, It says the exact same thing doesn't it?
 
John 14:1-3 had nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture, why couldn't he be preparing a place for us when we return at a post-trib rapture? 1Cor 15:35-37 the ones that are asleep are the non believers, what does this have to do with a pre-trib rapture. 1 Thess 4 13:18 is clearly in Revelation 7 its the same thing, It says the exact same thing doesn't it?
I think he was referring to these....
1Co 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
1Co 15:43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
 
John 14:1-3 had nothing to do with a pre-trib rapture, why couldn't he be preparing a place for us when we return at a post-trib rapture?
1. Why are you now going around in circles? It was clearly explained that there is absolutely nothing in Revelation -- the primary prophecy concerning the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation -- that speaks of a Rapture. So why don't you drop that idea. Since you could not show from Revelation any indication of a Rapture even though I asked you to show it, let's just drop that concept.

2. Don't let your biases get the better of you. John 14:1-3 is the first indication that Christ will return for His saints to take them to their heavenly home, where He has prepared "mansions". You will notice in this passage that He makes no reference to His coming "with power and great glory" where the whole world sees Him. He says "I will receive you unto myself". This means that He will personally come for His saints.
1Cor 15:35-37 the ones that are asleep are the non believers, what does this have to do with a pre-trib rapture.
Obviously you did not bother to read the passage before responding thus. There is not even a hint that non believers are being discussed. So the best thing to do is really study this Scripture properly.
1 Thess 4 13:18 is clearly in Revelation 7 its the same thing, It says the exact same thing doesn't it?
Revelation 7 simply shows a multitude of saints in Heaven (v. 9). The question for you (which I asked you to consider several times, but you once again failed to do) is HOW AND WHEN DID THOSE SAINTS GET THERE? Search the Scriptures for the answer.
 
So what do You mean by it being secret?
The answer was already given in a previous post:
None of this will be seen by the world, so if you want to call it "secret", or "hidden from sinners", or "exclusively for the Church", you can pick whatever terminology suits you. The fact of the matter is that this event IS NOT FOUND IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION.
So to make it crystal clear, today the world cannot know outwardly as to who is a genuine Christian and who is not. That evidence is within the spirits of believers and only God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) knows who is really a child of God. Therefore to the world (and even to other Christians who do not know you personally) "the Kingdom of God" which is within Christians is HIDDEN, SECRET, NOT KNOWN EXTERNALLY.

Similarly when Christ comes FOR His saints, the world will have no clue, since this will be "in the twinkling of an eye". And "the last trump" ("the trump of God"), "the voice of the archangel", and the "shout" of Christ are all STRICTLY FOR THE CHURCH. Since the Rapture is in a fraction of a second, to all intents and purposes it is "SECRET". Why do so many stumble over something that is so plain and simple? As to all the scenarios that follow, those are none of our business. That is all hidden from us.
 
The answer was already given in a previous post:

So to make it crystal clear, today the world cannot know outwardly as to who is a genuine Christian and who is not. That evidence is within the spirits of believers and only God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) knows who is really a child of God. Therefore to the world (and even to other Christians who do not know you personally) "the Kingdom of God" which is within Christians is HIDDEN, SECRET, NOT KNOWN EXTERNALLY.

Similarly when Christ comes FOR His saints, the world will have no clue, since this will be "in the twinkling of an eye". And "the last trump" ("the trump of God"), "the voice of the archangel", and the "shout" of Christ are all STRICTLY FOR THE CHURCH. Since the Rapture is in a fraction of a second, to all intents and purposes it is "SECRET". Why do so many stumble over something that is so plain and simple? As to all the scenarios that follow, those are none of our business. That is all hidden from us.
I am wondering if people will not look at this as the Rapture because it is possible pastors or people who everyone thought for sure would be raptured and will not go.
 
I am wondering if people will not look at this as the Rapture because it is possible pastors or people who everyone thought for sure would be raptured and will not go.
I think what you are saying is that many professing Christians will be left behind. If that is correct, then yes, some who believed they were saved will be disappointed. That's why Paul says "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?" (2 Cor 13:5).
 
Two very major hurdles to this hypothesis are:

1. 10-15 days before Christ's second coming we see the wrath of God being poured out upon political and religious "Babylon" (the world systems under the control of the Antichrist). "She shall be utterly burned with fire" (Rev 18:8) because of "the wine of the wrath of her fornication" (Rev 18:3). There is not even a hint that anything wonderful and glorious is happening for the Church at this time. In fact the word "church is absent".
Its interesting that you use terms like 'very major.' Embellishing does not add credibility to your argument.

The word 'Church [εκκλησια]' is also absent from 1Pet, 2Pet, 1Jn, and 2Jn, but that does not indicate that the Church is or is not present. The word 'Rapture' is absent in Rev ch's 1-4 [actually all of Scripture], yet it is a real event that occurs at some point. So, the absence of a word is not an indication supporting you point of view.

2. 10-15 days before the second coming of Christ is the period of the seven last plagues -- the vials of the wrath of God (Rev 15-17). Once again there is absolutely no indication of anything happening connected with the Rapture.
That is why the LORD raptures the Church of the 1st day of that month, because His wrath is poured out upon the world between then and His entering Jerusalem some time between the 10th and 15th of that same month.

I maintain that God is able to keep His elect from the effects of His judgments in the Revelation. If a remnant of people enter into the Millennium, then God would have kept them from His judgments. Surely He can keep the Church from the same.

There is in fact many mentions [direct or indirect] of the Rapture in the Revelation. Most of them happen between the 6th and 7th of a series of judgments:
- after the 6th seal/before the 7th: earthquake, stars falling, "the heaven departed like a scroll being rolled up" (Rev 6:14)
- after the 6th trumpet/before the 7th trumpet: "Come up here. And they went up into the heaven in the cloud" (Rev 11:12).
- "So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped" (Rev 14:16 ESV).
- there are other verses that mention the rapture in the Rev., for which I have listsed in another thread.
We can take the Jewish feasts and work out elaborate hypotheses around them, but you will notice there there is no mention in Revelation of Jewish feasts in connection with the events outline in the 6th and 7th seal judgments. Therefore we are back to the pre-tribulation Rapture.
Are you insinuating that the 1st - 5th seal judgments occur when the Church is present on earth? If so, that statement contradicts your belief that only Rev ch's 1-4 regard the Church, the only chapters you say deal with the presence of the Church.

What amazes me is the lengths to which some Christians will go to avoid the fact of a pre-tribulation Rapture.
The same can be said about your position against the Rapture occurring 10-15 days before our LORD sets foot in Jerusalem.
 
I maintain that God is able to keep His elect from the effects of His judgments in the Revelation. If a remnant of people enter into the Millennium, then God would have kept them from His judgments. Surely He can keep the Church from the same.
The only flaw with that argument is that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are God's judgments -- His wrath against the ungodly. The Church does not need to go through that period and unless you can actually show that the Church is present then this is mere conjecture.
There is in fact many mentions [direct or indirect] of the Rapture in the Revelation. Most of them happen between the 6th and 7th of a series of judgments:
- after the 6th seal/before the 7th: earthquake, stars falling, "the heaven departed like a scroll being rolled up" (Rev 6:14)
- after the 6th trumpet/before the 7th trumpet: "Come up here. And they went up into the heaven in the cloud" (Rev 11:12).
- "So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped" (Rev 14:16 ESV).
- there are other verses that mention the rapture in the Rev., for which I have listsed in another thread.​
None of these are even remotely connected with the Rapture of the Church. That interpretation has to be forced into these passages. Study Rev 14 and it speaks of the wrath of God.
Are you insinuating that the 1st - 5th seal judgments occur when the Church is present on earth? If so, that statement contradicts your belief that only Rev ch's 1-4 regard the Church, the only chapters you say deal with the presence of the Church.
These are two separate issues. The churches in the 1st century are shown in Rev 1-3. The judgments of the first five seals went into effect immediately after and are currently being experienced. They are called "the beginning of sorrows".
 
I guess there is some confusion of when I think the rapture there place for me. I believe the rapture is post-trib/pre-wrath takes place at the sixth seal, which is before Gods wrath, shortly after the Abomination of Desolation. My view point is that the Great Tribulation is not the full second part of the seven years, but rather a very short time after the Abomination of Desolation. The seventh seal kicks off Gods Wrath but were out of here at the sixth seal when the moon and sun darken. If we were to all endure here through all 7 years we would all be dead. So to clear this up I believe according to scripture we are here through the first 3.5 years than the Great Tribulation starts at the Abomination of Desolation for a very Short time, probably 60-75 days, This is why Jesus said he cut the days down, we would all be dead of were here allthrough the Great Tribulation. Were out of here at the sixth seal.
 
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I guess there is some confusion of when I think the rapture there place for me. I believe the rapture takes place at the sixth seal, which is before Gods wrath, shortly after the Abomination of Desolation.
Your reasoning is sound and you are pretty much on track. At the same time you must give careful consideration to 2 Thess 2:1-12, particuarly verses 6 and 7: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Notice those words "withholdeth" and "letteth". They speak of restraining or holding down someone. That someone is Satan working through the Antichrist. And the one who is holding him down is none other than God the Holy Spirit. Why is Satan restrained during the Church Age? Because (1) the Holy Spirit has been sent to this earth to convict and convince sinners and to indwell saints while restraining Satan; (2) the Church with the indwelling Holy Spirit also restrains Satan through prayer and witness; (3) the Gospel must be preached throughout the world without undue interference from Satan; and (4) God has a specific time for the Antichrist to take control of this earth for 3 1/2 years (which includes having a temple in Jerusalem where sacrifices have resumed).

When the Lord takes the Church out of this world, that restraint by the Holy Spirit is also removed, and the Antichrist (the Beast) is therefore allowed to (1) deceive the whole world through "strong delusion" and (2) set up the Abomination of Desolation (see Rev 13). Therefore the Rapture must occur before the Abomination of Desolation is set up.
 
Your reasoning is sound and you are pretty much on track. At the same time you must give careful consideration to 2 Thess 2:1-12, particuarly verses 6 and 7: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Notice those words "withholdeth" and "letteth". They speak of restraining or holding down someone. That someone is Satan working through the Antichrist. And the one who is holding him down is none other than God the Holy Spirit. Why is Satan restrained during the Church Age? Because (1) the Holy Spirit has been sent to this earth to convict and convince sinners and to indwell saints while restraining Satan; (2) the Church with the indwelling Holy Spirit also restrains Satan through prayer and witness; (3) the Gospel must be preached throughout the world without undue interference from Satan; and (4) God has a specific time for the Antichrist to take control of this earth for 3 1/2 years (which includes having a temple in Jerusalem where sacrifices have resumed).

When the Lord takes the Church out of this world, that restraint by the Holy Spirit is also removed, and the Antichrist (the Beast) is therefore allowed to (1) deceive the whole world through "strong delusion" and (2) set up the Abomination of Desolation (see Rev 13). Therefore the Rapture must occur before the Abomination of Desolation is set up.
Everyone who God knows will be saved and is in His Lamb's Book of Life will need to come to God before the rapture?
 
Your reasoning is sound and you are pretty much on track. At the same time you must give careful consideration to 2 Thess 2:1-12, particuarly verses 6 and 7: And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

Notice those words "withholdeth" and "letteth". They speak of restraining or holding down someone. That someone is Satan working through the Antichrist. And the one who is holding him down is none other than God the Holy Spirit. Why is Satan restrained during the Church Age? Because (1) the Holy Spirit has been sent to this earth to convict and convince sinners and to indwell saints while restraining Satan; (2) the Church with the indwelling Holy Spirit also restrains Satan through prayer and witness; (3) the Gospel must be preached throughout the world without undue interference from Satan; and (4) God has a specific time for the Antichrist to take control of this earth for 3 1/2 years (which includes having a temple in Jerusalem where sacrifices have resumed).

When the Lord takes the Church out of this world, that restraint by the Holy Spirit is also removed, and the Antichrist (the Beast) is therefore allowed to (1) deceive the whole world through "strong delusion" and (2) set up the Abomination of Desolation (see Rev 13). Therefore the Rapture must occur before the Abomination of Desolation is set up.
But i believe that God is holding back Satan through the tribulation. The tribulation is not Gods wrath, otherwise the spirits under the altar in the fifth seal wouldnt have asked what they did, so clearly the events before the 5th seal are not Gods wrath. To be honest, you could breakdown the 7 years into 3 parts, the tribulation(man made tribulation) Great Tribulation(a short time from the abomination of desolation to the 6th seal, when they Christians are persecuted but God shortens the days so we don't all die, probably 60-75 days in length. And then Gods wrath where the first trumpet is blown signaling the incoming first Vial(first of 7 of Gods wrath)
 
Everyone who God knows will be saved and is in His Lamb's Book of Life will need to come to God before the rapture?
Absolutely. Christians are "elect according to the FOREKNOWLEDGE of God the Father" (1 Pet 1:2) so all who will be saved will be saved. There is also a specific number of Gentiles known only to God who must complete the Church, and when the Church is complete it goes home (Rom 11:25):For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This in no way detracts from the truth that God will have ALL MEN TO BE SAVED AND TO COME UNTO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH (1 Tim 2:4). But all will not come to receive the gift of eternal life.
 
The only flaw with that argument is that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are God's judgments -- His wrath against the ungodly. The Church does not need to go through that period and unless you can actually show that the Church is present then this is mere conjecture.
My statement is that the Church will be on earth until 10-15 days before the LORD's Second Coming. You say there is a flaw to my argument, but offer no Scriptural proof. The Church will be here, but will not experience God's wrath.

Why do you say 'the Church does not need to go through that period'? You are reasoning again, and not backing it up with Scripture.

I did show where the Church is present, but you offer no Scriptural proof against my interpretation.

None of these are even remotely connected with the Rapture of the Church. That interpretation has to be forced into these passages. Study Rev 14 and it speaks of the wrath of God.
I think you need the study of Rev 14 as it begins with Christ and His elect on Mt. Zion, harpist playing and singing, and an angel proclaiming the Gospel. Yes there are element of God's wrath in Rev 14, but there are verses which identify the Church - and the Rapture of the Church, "And the One sitting on the cloud thrust His sickle over [Gk. epi] the earth, and the earth was reaped" (Rev 14:16). That sickle is across or over the earth, where the Church is caught up in the air to meet the LORD. That reaping differs from the LORD's reaping His enemies in Rev 14:19 where his sickle is "into [Gk. eis] the earth" and those are thrown "into the winepress of the great anger of God."

I am offering Scriptural proofs, where you are offering opinion; yet you still say I am the one conjecturing.

These are two separate issues. The churches in the 1st century are shown in Rev 1-3. The judgments of the first five seals went into effect immediately after and are currently being experienced. They are called "the beginning of sorrows".
Rev ch's 1-3 are relevant to Churches in the entire Church age, not just those of the 1st century. That is like saying Christ's words in the four Gospels are only meant for those to whom He spoke.

Please support with Scripture why you say the first 5 seals are "the beginning of sorrows"; as opposed to casually tossing statements into these forums.
 
The only flaw with that argument is that the Tribulation and the Great Tribulation are God's judgments -- His wrath against the ungodly. The Church does not need to go through that period and unless you can actually show that the Church is present then this is mere conjecture.

None of these are even remotely connected with the Rapture of the Church. That interpretation has to be forced into these passages. Study Rev 14 and it speaks of the wrath of God.

These are two separate issues. The churches in the 1st century are shown in Rev 1-3. The judgments of the first five seals went into effect immediately after and are currently being experienced. They are called "the beginning of sorrows".
9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” Here these martyrs are saying their blood had not yet been avenged and God is not yet judging the earth. This shows that the first four events are not Gods wrath. And obviously the 5th seal is not the wrath of God, thats christians being killed, Gods not killing his own people, that is the Devil, the AntiChrist. It sounds like to me their anxious to for God to pour out his wrath on the people that killed them.
 
My statement is that the Church will be on earth until 10-15 days before the LORD's Second Coming. You say there is a flaw to my argument, but offer no Scriptural proof. The Church will be here, but will not experience God's wrath.
The proof is in the text of Revelation -- in the warp and woof of the judgments themselves. You do not catch a glimpse of the Church ON EARTH. Period.
Why do you say 'the Church does not need to go through that period'? You are reasoning again, and not backing it up with Scripture.
9For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. 11Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
(1 Thess 5:9-11).
The whole Tribulation and Great Tribulation period is a time of wrath and judgment. Therefore we see the exhortation to the church of Philadelphia, applicable to the whole true Church per se (Rev 3:10):
Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
I did show where the Church is present, but you offer no Scriptural proof against my interpretation.
Let me then show you Scripture by Scripture, that there is no Church in these passages:
Rev 6:14 -- And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. The plain literal meaning of this is that the atmospheric/stratospheric heaven will be "rolled up" (disappear) and every mountain and island on this earth will be violently shifted from where they stand and "moved out of their places" -- a cataclysmic and catastrophic judgment. No Church.
Rev 11:12 --
And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them. The context makes it clear that this is addressed to the two human witnesses (prophets Moses and Elijah) who are killed by the Beast and resurrected by God. This has to be really twisted or spiritualized to apply it to the Church. And notice that this is specifically from earthly Jerusalem (called Sodom and Egypt).
Rev 14:6 -- And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people. It would take a major leap of imagination (or "faith") to make this angel into the Church.
Rev ch's 1-3 are relevant to Churches in the entire Church age, not just those of the 1st century. That is like saying Christ's words in the four Gospels are only meant for those to whom He spoke.
We were not discussing the "relevance" of these churches or their prophetic application to the Church age. That is not under cosideration.
Please support with Scripture why you say the first 5 seals are "the beginning of sorrows"; as opposed to casually tossing statements into these forums.
If you have paid attention to how I post, I never "toss statements" into the forum. Be that as it may, the first five seals include the following judgments: (1) false messiahs, (2) warfare on earth in general, and no lasting peace, (3) famines and food scarcity, (4) warfare, famine, death by any and all means (with the second death applicable to many -- hence "hell"), death from the animal kingdom (including pestilences), (5) Christian martyred for their faith.
Now lets look at Mt 24:4-12 and see what the "beginning of sorrows" is all about:
4And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
I trust you get the picture.
 
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