The "End Times"

[journeymanisnothing]

I don't believe all prophecy has come to pass. I believe it's on going, or current until our Lord returns. I don't mean to say that all the people or entities described as "yet to come" are here now, but in a sense, what they do is really no different from what has always been done. It's like a story that keeps replaying over and over. Does that make sense to anyone?

 

[Edward]

All prophecy has not come to pass. That much is clear. Want a scriptural reference to prove it?

Damascus gets destroyed.

Isaiah 17
17 The burden[a] against Damascus.

“Behold, Damascus will cease from being a city,
And it will be a ruinous heap.
2 [b]The cities of Aroer are forsaken;
They will be for flocks
Which lie down, and no one will make them afraid.
3 The fortress also will cease from Ephraim,
The kingdom from Damascus,
And the remnant of Syria;
They will be as the glory of the children of Israel,”
Says the Lord of hosts.../nkjv

It is the oldest continuously inhabited citiy in the world, It has a population of a little more than 2.5 million andIt has also never been destroyed.

So...will Damascus be destroyed? It has to be because the word of God says so. With the present political situations going on in the world right now, I'd say that Damascus is prolly due to be hit at any time.

 

[JLB]

I don't believe all prophecy has come to pass. I believe it's on going, or current until our Lord returns.

Amen.


So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Matthew 24:33

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Amen.


So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors! Matthew 24:33

Yes JLB, like that. "When you see all these things." Things they had yet to see. So things that hadn't happened yet.
But our Savior also likended his coming to the days of Noah. Days in which that believer was prepared for what was coming. In that sense, the end was coming.
The thing that started me thinking about "end times" was how bad the persecution of the believers would be. But then I thought, how is this really any different from persecution believers have always faced? Except for maybe the number of believers being killed, there really is no difference. Like the Apostles being martyred. For them, that was the end time.
There are "beasts" or a beast yet to come, but I believe we should focus on how Jesus' words apply to us now.
There are so many things in the Olivet discourse and the Book of Revelation of Jesus that can apply to believers throughout history and into the future that I would like to discuss with others here.

 

[JLB]

The thing that started me thinking about "end times" was how bad the persecution of the believers would be. But then I thought, how is this really any different from persecution believers have always faced?

Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21

• For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Great Tribulation refers to a world wide persecution against Christians.

• Great meaning encompassing a vast area; worldwide
• Tribulation by context refers to the persecution of Christians.

John says it this way —


Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:13-17

• Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

• And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation,’ spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place” (whoever reads, let him understand), “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. Matthew 24:15-21

• For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.

Great Tribulation refers to a world wide persecution against Christians.

• Great meaning encompassing a vast area; worldwide
• Tribulation by context refers to the persecution of Christians.

John says it this way —


Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child. But the woman was given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness to her place, where she is nourished for a time and times and half a time, from the presence of the serpent. So the serpent spewed water out of his mouth like a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away by the flood. But the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon had spewed out of his mouth. And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:13-17

• Now when the dragon saw that he had been cast to the earth, he persecuted the woman who gave birth to the male Child.

• And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

JLB

Yes, like that. The devil goes to make war against the saints "in the future", but he's always been on earth going to war against Gods' people. Jesus said he saw Satan fall from heaven (past tense), but then Satan isn't booted from heaven until later? It seems like a contradiction.
I think the solution is in understanding that we're living in an earthly realm that is an image of a heavenly realm. That things which happened long ago in another sphere, are occuring in this world.

 

[JLB]

Jesus said he saw Satan fall from heaven (past tense), but then Satan isn't booted from heaven until later? It seems like a contradiction.

Satan was removed from the third heaven where God’s throne is.

He still has access to the heavenlies, or what people call the “second heaven”.


For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:12


Soon he will be removed from the heavenly places and cast down to the earth… then there will be great tribulation.



JLB

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Satan was removed from the third heaven where God’s throne is.

He still has access to the heavenlies, or what people call the “second heaven”.


For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Ephesians 6:12


Soon he will be removed from the heavenly places and cast down to the earth… then there will be great tribulation.



JLB

It seems he was "cast to the earth" by Christs' victory over him. I think it's possible that doesn't have to do with changing a physical location, but instead mean that the devil has no preeminence above a mortal,

They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us Isa.14:10

In Eph.6:12, Paul says we're at war with Satan in heavenly places now, so those places are on earth where we are, or accessible to us. Where are these heavenly places the devil is removed from? I think it's from the lives of believers themselves because,

ye are the temple of God 1Cor.3:16

So Satan was cast from the 3rd heaven long ago and is also cast out of the "heavenlies" by Christ in us.

 

[Edward]

It seems he was "cast to the earth" by Christs' victory over him. I think it's possible that doesn't have to do with changing a physical location, but instead mean that the devil has no preeminence above a mortal,

They will all respond, they will say to you, “You also have become weak, as we are; you have become like us Isa.14:10

In Eph.6:12, Paul says we're at war with Satan in heavenly places now, so those places are on earth where we are, or accessible to us. Where are these heavenly places the devil is removed from? I think it's from the lives of believers themselves because,

ye are the temple of God 1Cor.3:16

So Satan was cast from the 3rd heaven long ago and is also cast out of the "heavenlies" by Christ in us.

Does the book of Job teach us that satan and his minions have to stand in line in Heaven, to accuse us and ask to be able to sift us? That's been for a long time now. I think when Satan gets cast down again, that He loses his access to the Heavenlies. (He wont have air superiority anymore!)

That stuff must happen right at the tribulation. Scripture says the anti-Christ will make war with the Saints. That's the Believers. It also says that the gates of Hell shall not prevail, right? But if you think about it, gates are a defensive instrument, so it sounds like we'll have 'em on the run! In Christ of course, I can do nothing of myelf.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I don't believe all prophecy has come to pass. I believe it's on going, or current until our Lord returns. I don't mean to say that all the people or entities described as "yet to come" are here now, but in a sense, what they do is really no different from what has always been done. It's like a story that keeps replaying over and over. Does that make sense to anyone?

Yes. Remember the saying "History repeats itself"? Just replace that with prophecy which for a long time I recognized has multiple fulfillment. However, I do believe in an end times eventually where Jesus Christ will literally return to the earth -- so the repeats will grow more and more intense. Have all the signs been fulfilled? Not yet. I see more and more falling into place. We are simply to watch and pray so that we are considered worthy to escape these things. (Luke 21:36)

 

[for_his_glory]

All we have to do is know all the prophecies that have been given by the Prophets of old and to understand the revelations that are still being revealed to know that all prophecies have not yet been fulfilled, especially when we see we are still here on earth as Jesus does not return until the last day and then all prophecies will be fulfilled and then the New Jerusalem will be ushered down from heaven.

 

[for_his_glory]

The abomination that is mentioned by Christ in Matthew 24 will be that of a New World Order with a singular governmental power that controls all economic, political, military, educational and religious authority that takes its seat in Jerusalem, Isaiah 14:12, 13; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12. This new government is a Global power giving false hope to the entire world as even the very elect of God will be deceived if possible, Matthew 24:24. The four horsemen in Revelation chapter 6 represent the false Christ, global wars, famine, sickness and disease that is brought on by mans sinful nature as they refuse to repent and turn back to God as they are lovers of self and their heart is full of pride and lust.

The scenario of the first six trumpets as Gods wrath is poured out into the world is that now the nations are in total chaos and left with little to no resources for sustaining life. Many are sick and dying from disease as there are no provisions to make medicine. Unemployment is at its all time lowest that causes many to lose everything they own. Governments collapse as civil wars and rioting break out as one covets that of what another has as they give no regard for the law and will take away what others possess just to survive. Marshal Law will come prevalent in all nations to control the people. Here in America do a study on Marshal Law and FEMA camps as it is an eye opener many people are not aware of.

The world cries out for a savior but rejects the one already given to them as they fall prey to that which comes under Satan’s control that is even secretly working in the world today. Jesus warned us to flee into the mountains/wilderness from this abomination and not to enter in and be yoked with the darkness as there is no communion with light and darkness, 2 Corinthians 6:14-18. This will be the greatest time of faith as we rely on God to supply our need and avoid the temptations that are set before us, 1 Peter 5:8.

 

[tim-from-pa]

All we have to do is know all the prophecies that have been given by the Prophets of old and to understand the revelations that are still being revealed to know that all prophecies have not yet been fulfilled, especially when we see we are still here on earth as Jesus does not return until the last day and then all prophecies will be fulfilled and then the New Jerusalem will be ushered down from heaven.

One hindrance to understanding prophecy is that the nations and peoples mentioned in end times prophecy are today not called by the same name as the biblical names. In addition, some of those peoples don't inhabit the same region, for example some of the Europeans are descended from those in the Middle east due to relocation in migrations, captivities, etc. This is how some believe Babylon is the Roman Empire in NT and later times. They actually were from there but were taken captive and/or relocated when subsequent Kingdoms after Babylon arose. So it goes beyond just a spiritual description. It's an actual people, but the point I'm making is folks may be looking one direction or region when it's the opposite way.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Does the book of Job teach us that satan and his minions have to stand in line in Heaven, to accuse us and ask to be able to sift us? That's been for a long time now. I think when Satan gets cast down again, that He loses his access to the Heavenlies. (He wont have air superiority anymore!)

That stuff must happen right at the tribulation. Scripture says the anti-Christ will make war with the Saints. That's the Believers. It also says that the gates of Hell shall not prevail, right? But if you think about it, gates are a defensive instrument, so it sounds like we'll have 'em on the run! In Christ of course, I can do nothing of myelf.

I think Satan got cast down when our Lord defeated death, but not from a place up in the air. To me it's like he lost his status. Why can't he accuse us night and day anymore? Because we confess and forsake our sins. We also cast down the things of the devil (2Cor.10:5) by our faith in Jesus.
I think the gates of hell is the grave, or death, so when Jesus gives us eternal life, we're victorious over those gates.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Yes. Remember the saying "History repeats itself"? Just replace that with prophecy which for a long time I recognized has multiple fulfillment. However, I do believe in an end times eventually where Jesus Christ will literally return to the earth -- so the repeats will grow more and more intense. Have all the signs been fulfilled? Not yet. I see more and more falling into place. We are simply to watch and pray so that we are considered worthy to escape these things. (Luke 21:36)

Escape those things in the sense of being faithful while going through them, because the persecution of the saints is certain.
I agree the intensity will grow before our Savior returns.

 

[for_his_glory]

One hindrance to understanding prophecy is that the nations and peoples mentioned in end times prophecy are today not called by the same name as the biblical names. In addition, some of those peoples don't inhabit the same region, for example some of the Europeans are descended from those in the Middle east due to relocation in migrations, captivities, etc. This is how some believe Babylon is the Roman Empire in NT and later times. They actually were from there but were taken captive and/or relocated when subsequent Kingdoms after Babylon arose. So it goes beyond just a spiritual description. It's an actual people, but the point I'm making is folks may be looking one direction or region when it's the opposite way.

IMO it has always been about worldly domains and wicked governments throughout all the ages beginning with Nimrod and the tower of Babel.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, like that. The devil goes to make war against the saints "in the future", but he's always been on earth going to war against Gods' people. Jesus said he saw Satan fall from heaven (past tense), but then Satan isn't booted from heaven until later? It seems like a contradiction.
I think the solution is in understanding that we're living in an earthly realm that is an image of a heavenly realm. That things which happened long ago in another sphere, are occuring in this world.

Revelation 12:7-12

Satan, being the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience, Ephesians 2:2, has from the time that iniquity was found in him in the garden of Eden, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-15 has always gone to and fro in the earth walking up and down in it, Job 2:2, having access to the throne of God to accuse the brethren while Jesus makes intercession for us before the Father

Satan and his unholy angels are now cast out of heaven forever and cast down to the earth. He is full of wrath as he has no more access to heaven where he stood before the Lord accusing the brethren while Jesus made intercession for them, Romans 8:34. Now is come salvation, strength and the kingdom of our Lord and the power of His Christ as we have overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony as we love not our lives unto death.

Now that Satan has been cast down to earth he is furious as he knows his time is short and he is going to do everything in his own power to silence and destroy the anointed of God as he works through those who have bowed down to him. Salvation brings with its Gods power and authority that gives us the strength to stand against Satan. Strength refreshes us to stand and not be weary, to walk and not give up. We rely on Gods strength to help us through every obstacle that stands in our way. Satan has always tried to fight against us and wear the flesh down, but our strength comes by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit living in us, Isaiah 40:31; Matthew 26:41.
We have been instructed of God to not conform to the world, but to be transformed in the renewing of our mind, Romans 12:2.

Those who have picked up their cross to follow Jesus, Matthew 16:24-28, need not worry that Satan is now out for blood as he will succeed in killing many saints as they die a martyr’s death like those saints before them as they loved not their own life, but have life eternal with the Father. Satan used Emperor Justinian who had around five hundred million Christians killed during his reign and used Paul before his conversion to slaughter the Christians as they both did this in the name of God, 2 Timothy 3:5.

 

[Goldwing]

Yes. Remember the saying "History repeats itself"? Just replace that with prophecy which for a long time I recognized has multiple fulfillment. However, I do believe in an end times eventually where Jesus Christ will literally return to the earth -- so the repeats will grow more and more intense. Have all the signs been fulfilled? Not yet. I see more and more falling into place. We are simply to watch and pray so that we are considered worthy to escape these things. (Luke 21:36)

Tim, True, History repeats itself, However, apocalyptic prophecy (Dan.&Rev.) do not. For instance, how many times will the "Little Horn" of (Dan.7:8) arise, or the first beast of ( Rev.13)? How often will the first trumpet of (Rev.8:7) sound? If you believe this, then who determines the number of multiple fulfillments?

This method of interpretation is invalid, and invalid hermeneutics lead to invalid interpretations. Consider this, every event within any of the prophecies of Dan. and Rev. is time stamped. Meaning they have either been fulfilled or will be fulfilled in the future, in either case each event will be time stamped on the day that it is fulfilled. Since time only moves forward there can only be one fulfillment. By tracking the fulfillments of the prophecies of Dan. & Rev. we can see how close we are in respect to the second coming. However, if one believes in multiple fulfillments that would be impossible since one wouldn't know the number of repeats. Does this make any sense?

 

[tim-from-pa]

Tim, True, History repeats itself, However, apocalyptic prophecy (Dan.&Rev.) do not. For instance, how many times will the "Little Horn" of (Dan.7:8) arise, or the first beast of ( Rev.13)? How often will the first trumpet of (Rev.8:7) sound? If you believe this, then who determines the number of multiple fulfillments?

This method of interpretation is invalid, and invalid hermeneutics lead to invalid interpretations. Consider this, every event within any of the prophecies of Dan. and Rev. is time stamped. Meaning they have either been fulfilled or will be fulfilled in the future, in either case each event will be time stamped on the day that it is fulfilled. Since time only moves forward there can only be one fulfillment. By tracking the fulfillments of the prophecies of Dan. & Rev. we can see how close we are in respect to the second coming. However, if one believes in multiple fulfillments that would be impossible since one wouldn't know the number of repeats. Does this make any sense?

Oh, I agree (thus the intensifying part I mentioned meaning MORE fulfillments). There was no little horn yet, but there was a prototype such as Antiochus Epiphanies. That's what I meant. But this historical character, while a type, did not fulfill all.

 

[journeymanisnothing]

Revelation 12:7-12

Satan, being the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience, Ephesians 2:2, has from the time that iniquity was found in him in the garden of Eden, Isaiah 14:12-15; Ezekiel 28:13-15 has always gone to and fro in the earth walking up and down in it, Job 2:2, having access to the throne of God to accuse the brethren while Jesus makes intercession for us before the Father

Satan and his unholy angels are now cast out of heaven forever and cast down to the earth. He is full of wrath as he has no more access to heaven where he stood before the Lord accusing the brethren while Jesus made intercession for them, Romans 8:34. Now is come salvation, strength and the kingdom of our Lord and the power of His Christ as we have overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb and the word of our testimony as we love not our lives unto death.

Now that Satan has been cast down to earth he is furious as he knows his time is short and he is going to do everything in his own power to silence and destroy the anointed of God as he works through those who have bowed down to him. Salvation brings with its Gods power and authority that gives us the strength to stand against Satan. Strength refreshes us to stand and not be weary, to walk and not give up. We rely on Gods strength to help us through every obstacle that stands in our way. Satan has always tried to fight against us and wear the flesh down, but our strength comes by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit living in us, Isaiah 40:31; Matthew 26:41.
We have been instructed of God to not conform to the world, but to be transformed in the renewing of our mind, Romans 12:2.

Those who have picked up their cross to follow Jesus, Matthew 16:24-28, need not worry that Satan is now out for blood as he will succeed in killing many saints as they die a martyr’s death like those saints before them as they loved not their own life, but have life eternal with the Father. Satan used Emperor Justinian who had around five hundred million Christians killed during his reign and used Paul before his conversion to slaughter the Christians as they both did this in the name of God, 2 Timothy 3:5.

That part you quoted from Rev.12:10 is one of the things that jumps at me. Why does salvation come "now"?... because salvation was before. You see what I mean? They can't mean nobody was saved before this. So it has to do with realization, or "revelation", knowing Jesus. They're not saying, "We now have salvation." They're saying, "We now realize salvation."
It's not that God changed something. It's that our understanding of God changed. Does that make sense?