journeymanisnothing
Member
Hello Goldwing.
What us the difference between one believer being persecuted because of his faith in Christ, or one million believers being persecuted for their faith in Christ?
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
The "End Times"
- Thread starter journeymanisnothing
- Start date
What us the difference between one believer being persecuted because of his faith in Christ, or one million believers being persecuted for their faith in Christ?
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Let's put it all together as "now comes our salvation" means that when Satan and his unholy angels are finally cast down to the ground he will rage war against the saints during the 3 1/2 years of the greatest tribulation that the saints at that time have ever seen or will ever see again with Satan working through the beast out of the sea who gives power and authority to the beast out of the earth being the son of perdition takes his seat in Jerusalem forcing all to bow down to him and take its mark or die a martyrs death as he will try and wear out the saints of God, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4; Daniel 7:25.
In Rev 12:10 it speaks about strength as this strength is what we have to draw on in our faith in Christ to endure until the end when Christ returns on the last day and we are caught up to Him. Many who fear for their own lives will take the mark of the beast damning themselves to the lake of fire in Gods judgement against them.
Please consider the following
Please consider the following insights:
Rev. 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
The Sequence Begins
7} There was a war in Heaven. Michael and His angels fought against the great red dragon and his angels. A few hours before His death, Jesus made the following statement: “ ‘Father, glorify your name!’ Then a voice came from Heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.’ The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, ‘This voice was for your bene t, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.’ ”
Jesus knew that Lucifer would be permanently cast out of Heaven if the Father approved His sacri fice. When Jesus said, “Now is the time for judgment on this world. . . ,” He meant that the time had come for the Father to determine who should be the rightful prince of this world. When Jesus said, “now the prince of this world will be driven out,” Jesus predicted the war described in verse 7. This war occurred on Resurrection Sunday.
Rev. 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev. 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
{8} But the devil and his demons were thrown out of Heaven, never to enter again.
God did not destroy the devil and his angels on Resurrection Sunday because His purpose for them was not finished. God permitted open warfare in Heaven between Lucifer and his angels and Jesus and his angels for a significant reason. The Father wanted to make sure that among the holy angels, no sympathy for the once adored and highly exalted Lucifer remained. This war was not a test of faith as the first war had been.( Ezekiel 28:12-17). 1 This war produced a revelation. The Father allowed the battle to last long enough to see where each angel firmly stood. After 4,000 years, there was no change. Those loyal to Lucifer defended their evil leader and remained unchanged. Those loyal to Michael also remained unchanged.
{9} Once the loyalty of the angels was con firmed, the devil and his angels were once again thrown out of Heaven, at the speed of lightning.(Luke10:18) The Father threw the devil and his angels into an earthly abyss and confined them there. Ever since Resurrection Sunday, the devil and his angels have been bound to this planet, limited to the dimensions of the spirit realm (represented to John as the abyss). Originally, the great red dragon and his angels were hurled out of Heaven because
of defiance. Four thousand years later, their defiance remains unchanged. The great red dragon is that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled into the Earth, and his angels with him.*
Rev.12:10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ’Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
{10} After the war in Heaven ended, I heard a loud voice in Heaven say: “Now that salvation has been paid in full and the devil has been defeated, the gospel of Jesus Christ and His coming kingdom will advance with clarity and power throughout the Earth. Lucifer’s position as “the prince of Earth” has been honorably over- thrown by the perfect life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The accuser of our human brothers, who accuses them before God day and night, has been hurled down and his endless arguments and accusations in Heaven against repentant sinners have been silenced.”
{11} The voice continued: “Even though our brothers on Earth are sinners, they are not hopeless or defeated. Lucifer’s claim that God cannot legally justify sinners has been silenced because Jesus paid the price for every sinner who surrenders to the directives of the Holy Spirit and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Through faith in Christ, repentant sinners are covered with Christ’s righteousness (justified as though they never sinned) in God’s sight.”
(Above taken from: Jesus Final Victory, by L.Wilson, pgs. 300-301)
999,999. If that's not the answer you were expecting, I'm not sure of your point. Please inform. Thanks
journeymanisnothing
Member
In vss. 10-11 the devil accused "our brethren" but they overcame him by the blood of Christ, by their testimony of Christ and loved not their lives unto death,,,,,but then he's cast to the earth to make war against the saints?
I think "our brethren" are the faithful OT Jews who did what "the remnant of her seed" (meaning us) are doing now.
I think the 3 1/2 years is referring to Christs earthly ministry, the gospel. That's the "place" where we're protected and fed.
journeymanisnothing
Member
I think we're fighting a war in a heavenly realm concealed or hidden under a blanket of earthly creation.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Yes, that was my point. Except for the numbers, there is no difference.
For the body is not one member, but many. ....And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it.
1Cor.12:14, 26
John also tells us whoever denies that Jesus is Christ who came in flesh is antichrist. So what if all who reject our Lord are simply one body? They all share the same end, so what's the difference?
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
Job 1:7 And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.
Jesus intercedes for us as Satan stands before Him accusing us, pointing out our sins and weaknesses just as he did Job. Other verses, Zechariah 3:1; Romans 8:34; Rev 12:10-11 all speak about Satan accusing the brethren of their faults, but we have overcome Satan by the blood of Christ who has given us power and authority over Satan by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. For now Satan walks throughout the earth and also still has access to stand before Christ making accusations against us.
When we read about the war in heaven between Michael and Satan in Rev 12, this happens on the last day when Christ returns and plants His feet on the Mt of Olives.
Matthew 24:29-31; Rev 19:11-21 Jesus descends down from heaven with His army of the host (angels) of heaven as while remaining in the air He sends His angels out to the four corners of the earth to gather His own to Him. He will destroy the beast and false prophet casting them alive into the lake of fire, Rev 19:15, 16. The remnant in Rev 19:21 are the world leaders of every nation on the earth that have followed after the beast that rules their government. The remnant will be slain by the very words Jesus speaks of their damnation as the fowls will be filled with their flesh and at that time Satan will be chained and bound so he can not interfere with the ungodly people that are still alive on earth that become the footstool of Christ. Then the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ and He shall reign for ever and the saints will begin to rule over the nations here on earth, Rev 11:15; 5:10; 20:1-3; Matthew 5:5.
Rev 20:7-10 Those that have rejected Christ that still remain on earth after the beast, false prophet and all the ruling leaders from every nation that followed after the beast are destroyed are those who are the numbering as the sand of the sea. These are the enemy of God that Satan uses to battle against the saints during the battle of Armageddon that are camped upon the breadth of the earth after Satan is released for a season, Psalms 2:7-10; 110; Ezekiel 36; 37; Rev 20:7-9. The saints are camped not only in Jerusalem the beloved city of God, but also throughout the breadth of the earth. It's only the 144,000 generational Jews that believe in Christ that have returned to Jerusalem. After the 1000 years are fulfilled Satan is set loosed for a season and goes out to deceive the nations as he gathers the enemies of Christ to battle against the saints as the numbering of unbelievers is like the sand of the sea. As the enemy surrounds the camp of the saints God sends fire down from heaven and destroys the enemy and Satan is cast into the lake of fire. Zechariah 14; Luke 21:20-22 and Rev 16:16 mentions the battle of Armageddon when Christ and His army of angels return as Christ plants His feet on the mount of Olives for the final battle as Gog and Magog found in Ezekiel Chapter 38 is the battle of Rev 20:7-9.
(IMO 1000 years is a figurative number, not a literal number. It is figurative like the numbering in Deuteronomy 7:9; 1Chronicles 16:15; Psalms 50:10; 90:4; 105:8 Ecc 6:6; 7:28; Daniel 5:1; 2Peter 3:8.)
Journeyman, I'll share my thoughts on your question, "why does salvation come now?" Up until Christ went to the cross, salvation was based on faith, in that the sinner was required to offer up a perfect sacrifice on the brazen altar in the outer court of the earthly sanctuary. There, was no will merit in the blood of this perfect sacrifice, but rather it pointed forward in time when the Lamb of God/Jesus would taken on the human nature, live a sinless life and offer up Himself, on the the altar in the earthly sanctuary according to the Fathers plan. Things didn't go as planed, because the Jewish Nation, refused to recognize Christ as the Lamb of God, therefore, they crucified Him outside of the city, on Golgotha, the place where criminals were crucified. Nevertheless, Christ/The Lamb of God, went to the cross instead and offered up His sinless life for mankind.
Until that time mans salvation was not secure, until Christ had lived a sinless life and was willing to
offer up His life for mankind. Consider too, that Christ went to the cross in faith that His life and death would be accepted by the Father, and if it weren't He would have never been raised up, and would have forfeited His eternal life. When we understand all of this and what the Godhead offered up, the Love of God only gets more incomprehensible. Fortunately for mankind, Christ life and death was accepted by the Father and our salvation was made sure at the time of His resurrection. Hope this helps.
Until that time mans salvation was not secure, until Christ had lived a sinless life and was willing to
offer up His life for mankind. Consider too, that Christ went to the cross in faith that His life and death would be accepted by the Father, and if it weren't He would have never been raised up, and would have forfeited His eternal life. When we understand all of this and what the Godhead offered up, the Love of God only gets more incomprehensible. Fortunately for mankind, Christ life and death was accepted by the Father and our salvation was made sure at the time of His resurrection. Hope this helps.
Journeyman, Please consider the following interpretation of (Rev12:7-14) based on proven hermeneutics.
Rev. 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
The Sequence Begins
{7} There was a war in Heaven. Michael and His angels fought against the great red dragon and his angels. A few hours before His death, Jesus made the following statement: “ ‘Father, glorify your name!’ Then a voice came from Heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.’ The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, ‘This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.’ ”
Jesus knew that Lucifer would be permanently cast out of Heaven if the Father approved His sacri fice. When Jesus said, “Now is the time for judgment on this world. . . ,” He meant that the time had come for the Father to determine who should be the rightful prince of this world. When Jesus said, “now the prince of this world will be driven out,” Jesus predicted the war described in verse 7. This war occurred on Resurrection Sunday.
Rev. 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev. 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
{8} But the devil and his demons were thrown out of Heaven, never to enter again.
God did not destroy the devil and his angels on Resurrection Sunday because His purpose for them was not finished. God permitted open warfare in Heaven between Lucifer and his angels and Jesus and his angels for a significant reason. The Father wanted to make sure that among the holy angels, no sympathy for the once adored and highly exalted Lucifer remained. This war was not a test of faith as the first war had been.( Ezekiel 28:12-17). This war produced a revelation. The Father allowed the battle to last long enough to see where each angel firmly stood. After 4,000 years, there was no change. Those loyal to Lucifer defended their evil leader and remained unchanged. Those loyal to Jesus also remained unchanged.
{9} Once the loyalty of the angels was confirmed, the devil and his angels were once again thrown out of Heaven, at the speed of lightning.(Luke10:18) The Father threw the devil and his angels into an earthly abyss and confined them there. Ever since Resurrection Sunday, the devil and his angels have been bound to this planet, limited to the dimensions of the spirit realm (represented to John as the abyss). Originally, the great red dragon and his angels were hurled out of Heaven because
of defiance. Four thousand years later, their defiance remains unchanged. The great red dragon is that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled into the Earth, and his angels with him.*
Rev.12:10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ’Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
{10} After the war in Heaven ended, I heard a loud voice in Heaven say: “Now that salvation has been paid in full and the devil has been defeated, the gospel of Jesus Christ and His coming kingdom will advance with clarity and power throughout the Earth. Lucifer’s position as “the prince of Earth” has been honorably over- thrown by the perfect life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The accuser of our human brothers, who accuses them before God day and night, has been hurled down and his endless arguments and accusations in Heaven against repentant sinners have been silenced.”
Rev. 12:11
And they over- came him by
the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev. 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, be- cause he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
{11} The voice continued: “Even though our brothers on Earth are sinners, they are not hopeless or defeated. Lucifer’s claim that God cannot legally justify sinners has been silenced because Jesus paid the price for every sinner who surrenders to the directives of the Holy Spirit and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Through faith in Christ, repentant sinners are covered with Christ’s righteousness (justified as though they never sinned) in God’s sight.”When a person surrenders to the directives of the Holy Spirit, he honors and upholds the Word of God at all costs, and the word of his testimony proves that he is loyal to God, even will- ing to die for Him if necessary.
{12} “Therefore, rejoice holy angels, all of you who live in Heaven because atonement for sinners has been paid in full, but woe to God’s people on Earth for the devil’s wrath is upon you! He is filled with fury, because he now knows that he will fail miserably.
* Note - At the fifth trumpet, the devil and his angels will be permitted to exit the abyss. Therefore, a time is coming when the devil and his angels will physically appear before the people of Earth.43 At the Second Coming, Jesus will destroy the bodies used by the devil and his angels and Jesus will return them to the abyss (spirit realm). Lucifer and his angels know they have no further standing in God’s courtroom or in the court of public appeal. They are doomed, condemned to die the second death. The demons know their days are numbered and the countdown cannot be stopped.”
Rev. 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto
the earth, he persecuted the woman which
brought forth the man child.
Rev. 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might y into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The Dragon Pursues the Woman for 1,260 Years
{13} When the dragon saw that he had been forever locked out of Heaven, when he saw there was no further point in accusing sinners before God (hoping to find sympathy among the holy angels), he focused his rage on the woman who had given birth to Jesus. He and his demons agreed they would not let her rest until she was totally destroyed.
{14} However, God gave the woman two wings of a great eagle so that she could flee to remote places that He had prepared for her. God’s people were sustained for a time, times, and half a time. Later, this time period would become known as, “The Dark Ages.”
The Bible declares the dragon chased the woman for “a time, times, and half a time.” This time period is defined in verse 6 as 1,260 days. Two different expressions for the same time period enables us to nail down this period of time. When translated according to Rule Four, we find that 1,260 days equals 1,260 years. History indicates this time period ended in 1798 when the power of the little horn (the papacy) was broken. Counting backward 1,260 years, this prophetic time period began in A.D. 538. The language used in Revelation 12:14 is identical with Daniel 7:25 and they easily align and identify the same time period.
Rev. 12:7
And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
The Sequence Begins
{7} There was a war in Heaven. Michael and His angels fought against the great red dragon and his angels. A few hours before His death, Jesus made the following statement: “ ‘Father, glorify your name!’ Then a voice came from Heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and will glorify it again.’ The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him. Jesus said, ‘This voice was for your benefit, not mine. Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.’ ”
Jesus knew that Lucifer would be permanently cast out of Heaven if the Father approved His sacri fice. When Jesus said, “Now is the time for judgment on this world. . . ,” He meant that the time had come for the Father to determine who should be the rightful prince of this world. When Jesus said, “now the prince of this world will be driven out,” Jesus predicted the war described in verse 7. This war occurred on Resurrection Sunday.
Rev. 12:8
And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev. 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
{8} But the devil and his demons were thrown out of Heaven, never to enter again.
God did not destroy the devil and his angels on Resurrection Sunday because His purpose for them was not finished. God permitted open warfare in Heaven between Lucifer and his angels and Jesus and his angels for a significant reason. The Father wanted to make sure that among the holy angels, no sympathy for the once adored and highly exalted Lucifer remained. This war was not a test of faith as the first war had been.( Ezekiel 28:12-17). This war produced a revelation. The Father allowed the battle to last long enough to see where each angel firmly stood. After 4,000 years, there was no change. Those loyal to Lucifer defended their evil leader and remained unchanged. Those loyal to Jesus also remained unchanged.
{9} Once the loyalty of the angels was confirmed, the devil and his angels were once again thrown out of Heaven, at the speed of lightning.(Luke10:18) The Father threw the devil and his angels into an earthly abyss and confined them there. Ever since Resurrection Sunday, the devil and his angels have been bound to this planet, limited to the dimensions of the spirit realm (represented to John as the abyss). Originally, the great red dragon and his angels were hurled out of Heaven because
of defiance. Four thousand years later, their defiance remains unchanged. The great red dragon is that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled into the Earth, and his angels with him.*
Rev.12:10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ’Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down.
{10} After the war in Heaven ended, I heard a loud voice in Heaven say: “Now that salvation has been paid in full and the devil has been defeated, the gospel of Jesus Christ and His coming kingdom will advance with clarity and power throughout the Earth. Lucifer’s position as “the prince of Earth” has been honorably over- thrown by the perfect life, ministry, death, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. The accuser of our human brothers, who accuses them before God day and night, has been hurled down and his endless arguments and accusations in Heaven against repentant sinners have been silenced.”
Rev. 12:11
And they over- came him by
the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev. 12:12
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, be- cause he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
{11} The voice continued: “Even though our brothers on Earth are sinners, they are not hopeless or defeated. Lucifer’s claim that God cannot legally justify sinners has been silenced because Jesus paid the price for every sinner who surrenders to the directives of the Holy Spirit and the gospel of Jesus Christ. Through faith in Christ, repentant sinners are covered with Christ’s righteousness (justified as though they never sinned) in God’s sight.”When a person surrenders to the directives of the Holy Spirit, he honors and upholds the Word of God at all costs, and the word of his testimony proves that he is loyal to God, even will- ing to die for Him if necessary.
{12} “Therefore, rejoice holy angels, all of you who live in Heaven because atonement for sinners has been paid in full, but woe to God’s people on Earth for the devil’s wrath is upon you! He is filled with fury, because he now knows that he will fail miserably.
* Note - At the fifth trumpet, the devil and his angels will be permitted to exit the abyss. Therefore, a time is coming when the devil and his angels will physically appear before the people of Earth.43 At the Second Coming, Jesus will destroy the bodies used by the devil and his angels and Jesus will return them to the abyss (spirit realm). Lucifer and his angels know they have no further standing in God’s courtroom or in the court of public appeal. They are doomed, condemned to die the second death. The demons know their days are numbered and the countdown cannot be stopped.”
Rev. 12:13
And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto
the earth, he persecuted the woman which
brought forth the man child.
Rev. 12:14
And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might y into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
The Dragon Pursues the Woman for 1,260 Years
{13} When the dragon saw that he had been forever locked out of Heaven, when he saw there was no further point in accusing sinners before God (hoping to find sympathy among the holy angels), he focused his rage on the woman who had given birth to Jesus. He and his demons agreed they would not let her rest until she was totally destroyed.
{14} However, God gave the woman two wings of a great eagle so that she could flee to remote places that He had prepared for her. God’s people were sustained for a time, times, and half a time. Later, this time period would become known as, “The Dark Ages.”
The Bible declares the dragon chased the woman for “a time, times, and half a time.” This time period is defined in verse 6 as 1,260 days. Two different expressions for the same time period enables us to nail down this period of time. When translated according to Rule Four, we find that 1,260 days equals 1,260 years. History indicates this time period ended in 1798 when the power of the little horn (the papacy) was broken. Counting backward 1,260 years, this prophetic time period began in A.D. 538. The language used in Revelation 12:14 is identical with Daniel 7:25 and they easily align and identify the same time period.
Why would God have to approve the sacrifice Christ made for us when it was God's plan of salvation before the foundation of the world, 1Peter 1:18-21?
Why would Christ have to have faith in God when He and the Father are one, John 14:6-11?
TIME, TIMES AND A HALF
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Prophecy of coming Messiah)
A Day Equals One Year
The 70 week prophecy of Daniel 9:24, however, establishes a principle related to prophetic time that few completely understand. Virtually everyone acknowledges that the 70 weeks are not literally 70 weeks, but rather 70 weeks of years, or 490 years. The principle is that in Bible prophecy, you must substitute a period of a year in place of a day. This is the day=year principle. This equation is clearly established in scripture-
Num 14:34 after the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.
In this verse, a relationship between day and year is clear, each day will equate to a literal year. For the forty days that Israel spied in Canaan in unbelief, they would be punished by wandering forty years in the desert.
Ezek 4:6 and when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year.
Here again, the equation is stated quite openly, a prophetic day represents a literal year. So to return to the 70 weeks of Daniel, you must first determine the number of days represented. Seventy weeks is 70 x 7 or 490 days, which will then equate to a literal 490 years in the fulfillment of the prophecy.
The Lunar Calendar
So now to apply this formula to the 3 1/2 times we must first establish just exactly how many days this represents. The Jews did not use a solar calendar as we do today, they used instead a lunar calendar, as indicated in Psalms-
Psalms 104:19 He appointed the moon for seasons: the sun knoweth his going down.
The length of the lunar month can be determined from Genesis-
Gen 7:11 In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened.
Gen 7:24 and the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.
Gen 8:4 and the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat.
Note that the there were exactly 5 months from the point where the flood began and the ark came to rest on Ararat, and that this was a period of 150 days. This demonstrates that the lunar calendar set forth in the Bible has a 30 day month; therefore the year is counted as 360 days. (This 360 day lunar year also accounts for the reason that there are 360 degrees in the compass).
The 1260 Days
Returning to the 3 1/2 times, which we now know represents 3 1/2 lunar years of 360 days each, using the same methodology as is used for the 70 weeks of Daniel we calculate it to actually represent 1260 literal years. So, Time, Times and half a Time in prophecy is really 1260 years! To confirm this formula we need only to look to the 12th chapter of the book of Revelation-
Rev 12:6 and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
Here the woman represents the faithful church, which flees into the wilderness for 1260 days. Again using the day=year formula, this actually speaks of 1260 years that the church would be persecuted. Now look at this next verse from the same chapter-
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Here the exact same time of persecution is referred to as 3 1/2 times, again meaning the same period of 1260 days/years as found in verse 6. In the book of Daniel, this exact same period of persecution in church history is found-
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
This verse in context is referring to a period of time that the little horn or antichrist will persecute the true believers or true church, again for 1260 years. The same is true for this next verse-
Dan 12:7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
journeymanisnothing
Member
I believe it's possible to do all things in Christ, including living a sinless life as we follow his Spirit,
Casting downi maginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 2Cor.10:5
As we grow in Christ, satan has nothing to accuse us of.
The war in Rev.12 shows how our ministering spirits cast evil spirits down after Jesus' victory over them.
To me, the lake of fire describes the effect the presence of our Lird has on the ungodly,
the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 2 Thes.2:8
Throughiut scripture, God is described as a consuming fire and Jesus is returning that way,
the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2Thes.1:7-8
The "thousand years" is period of time when the truth of God by the gospel is spread over the whole world so that people would be deceived no longer. All those who believe it bing Satan. This is my belief.
journeymanisnothing
Member
I understand before Jesus came, salvation was by faith in Christ in figures, but I believe salvation has always been secure for anyone who lives by faith in him. Our Lord confirmed that his word is true by his resurrection.
journeymanisnothing
Member
I believe the 3 1/2 years period is the time of Christs open ministry when he walked on earth as a man. That's the place we "fly" to and get "fed" in this wilderness.
To answer the 2nd question. I believe the Trinity is of three distinct deities, the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit. Three equal, coeternal, separate an distinct members who live and function as one God, (plural).
I'm assuming in the first question you are asking, "why would the Father (God) have to approve the sacrifice of Christ when He the Father required Christ to be sacrificed in order to redeem Mankind." Yes, the Father laid out the plan of salvation as you say, but Christ had to have lived a sinless life, in order that His blood could atone for our sins. Recall, in the earthly sanctuary service all sacrificial offerings had to be perfect, without blemish. The Father was well aware that Christ had lived a sinless life, therefore, He raised Him up.
We were bought with a price and Jesus has already overcome Satan on our behalf if we are truly His own, but many deny the power of Christ being led around by the false doctrines of the devil as even now many are falling away from truth. The Gospel of Christ Jesus has spread throughout the world, but yet many refuse to hear.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 15:7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Mat 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
2Tim 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Jesus being the very Spirit of God before the foundation of the world as He and the Father are one was prophesied by the Prophets in the OT and spoken of by John the baptist in the NT as John being the forerunner of Christ calling all to repent. As foretold Christ did come as the word of God made flesh (skin, bone, blood) to be that light that shines in darkness. He came as redeemer Savior through Gods grace as Christ is our faith that all can repent of their sins and have eternal life with the Father to all who will believe in Him as Lord and Savior. John 1:1-4; 1 Peter 1:13-21
After the sacrifice of Christ God raised Him from the grave and as He had to ascend back up to heaven the promise was that He would never leave us or forsake us as when He ascended He sent down the Holy Spirit (Spirit of God) to indwell all who will believe in Christ and His finished works on the cross. In the OT Gods Spirit fell on them for a time and purpose under heaven. Now we are indwelled with that power and authority through Gods grace that the Holy Spirit now works in us and through us teaching all things God wants us to learn. All three are Spiritual and Spiritual awakenings in us to know the will of God and walk in His statures. John 16:7-15
Ephesians 4: 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth. 7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit as all three coequal Gods Spirit.
Jesus being the right arm of God who knew no sin. Isaiah 53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed? 2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. 3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Jesus is the word of God. John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
Jesus is word, light and life that is God come in the flesh. John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Gods Holy Spirit has come to indwell us and teach us. John 14: 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
Yes, Jesus ministry did last around 3 12 years. When the son of perdition takes his literal seat in Jerusalem, being the last antichrist will also reign on earth for 3 1/2 years as he will claim to be Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12.
journeymanisnothing
Member
I don't know if the last antichrist will go into a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem. Paul said,
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work 2Thes.2:7
amd John said,
Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist 1Jn.2:22
and Jesus said,
Ye are of your father the devil, Jn.8:44
When our Lord returns, all of the ungodly are burned up, so what's the difference?