the Eucharist become the Body of Christ

ezra

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i tried discussing this in another post so far it has flat-lined in response . i found this article while looking into a former early church father . while i am not accustom to using the word Eucharist . i use communion and the Lords supper i do agree on scripture where Christ says is my body and my blood but in what sense?
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Eucharist
 
I certainly do not believe that the Eucharist is the actual flesh of Christ. It is more symbolic than that. Can't imagine Jesus giving His disciples literal flesh and blood to eat and drink.

Jesus said 'Do this in remembrance of me'

Remember Jesus was made flesh and He is our bread of life.

Remember Christ's blood was shed for us and He died for us.

But He rose from the dead and He is our salvation - if we believe in Him and keep His commandments.
 
I certainly do not believe that the Eucharist is the actual flesh of Christ. It is more symbolic than that. Can't imagine Jesus giving His disciples literal flesh and blood to eat and drink.
You are confusing "literal" with "actual."
The bread does not turn into literal meat and the wine does not turn into literal blood.
But, according to Jesus, Paul and all of the early church writers, it actually is His body and blood.

If you read Jesus' teaching in John chapter 6, He is very clear that we have to "eat His flesh" and "Drink His blood" in order to have eternal life. No where in that passage does He suggest that he is speaking symbolically. And if "eat my flesh" and "drink my blood" are merely symbols, is "eternal life" also just a symbol?

Jhn 6:51I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.

Jhn 6:53-58
Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.
This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”


In the Synoptic Gospels, Jesus says that the bread is His body and the wine is His blood.
He does not say that they are symbols of or that they represent His body and blood and the earliest writings of the Church after the apostles confirmed that they were taught by the apostles that the bread was His body and the wine was His blood.

Neither Jesus nor any of the writers of the NT explain how that comes about or why it still tastes like bread and wine. They simply accept it as what Jesus said and as what they were taught by the apostles.

Beyond that, it is a mystery.

Justin Martyr, the church’s first apologist, wrote in the first half of the 2nd century in his “The First Apology of Justin”, in Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist. In it he reports what he was taught as a new Christian by the church. That would mean that the teaching he received was already established in the church. It is part of the teaching of the apostles who taught what they learned from Jesus. It is God’s inspired teaching to the church by His Son, through the apostles to the church.

“And this food is called among us Eucaristiva [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Savior, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.

For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, “This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body; ”and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, “This is My blood; ”and gave it to them alone.”

Unfortunately, in our modern, western, technical /information age, we tend to want to some kind of scientific, experimental proof of things that are to be taken by faith. We demand that we be shown how that is done. But God does not show man how He does what He does because we wouldn't understand if we were shown.

If we can accept that "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made."(John 1:3) why do we have difficulty believing that He who made all things in heaven and earth also can make the bread to be His actual body and the wine to be His actual blood?

We don't know how God made the heavens and the earth and we don't know how the bread and wine become the body and blood. By faith, we receive these things as being true.
 
My meditations on the subject have led me down the same path as Brother Jim expressed. It is not symbolic.

It is actual...But happens in the spiritual realm. The unseen realm to us, which we are to be looking to...
 
I tend to look at it this way...

Man (Adam and Eve) ate fruit from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil and (eventually) died.
They consumed/internalized the fruit. A corrupting element within themselves that caused death.

Jesus (God made flesh and blood) is the antidote. We now need to consume/internalize Him to live.
 
I believe it is actually his blood and body though. He did not say flesh body

I don't think the believers back then realized that though, so some left...I think it's His spiritual body...and when we pray over it and bless it, it changes it on a Kingdom level, which we don't see except by faith.
 
I'm struggling with this, although I did believe it for a long time.
It's something I'm going to have pray about.
 
i understand what is being said actual only in being transformed by the Holy spirit .that is where i am at. appreciate the background post
 
I've been to a passover meal and they are full of symbolism so it isn't out of the realm of possibility that this is symbolism.
Also, given that Jesus frequently spoke out against the Pharisees and their traditions and rituals, I highly doubt he would institute a ritual that requires we actually eat and drink his flesh and blood (whether spiritually or literally) in order to get some kind of spiritual recharge.
John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
When we are saved, born-again, we have the Holy Spirit.
Jesus was baptized and he told the disciples to do the Lord's Supper in remembrance of him. But when you start saying that you have to partake of the Lord's Supper and get baptized you are saying your faith is based on works.
(Side note: religions always fixate on these outward shows, rather than the other things that Jesus also told us to do, like loving God above all, loving your neighbor more than yourself, being a cheerful giver, etc etc - which should be proof enough of how false this idea is)

The thief on the cross next to Jesus only had time to confess with his mouth and he was saved.
 
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lso, given that Jesus frequently spoke out against the Pharisees and their traditions and rituals, I highly doubt he would institute a ritual that requires we actually eat and drink his flesh and blood (whether spiritually or literally) in order to get some kind of spiritual recharge.
Jesus spoke out against the Pharisees because their traditions and rituals had the appearance of religiosity but they were done primarily for the purpose of impressing other people with how holy they were. But, at the same time, they neglected the weighter parts of the law which are mercy and justice.

That is not at all the same kind of thing that Jesus was doing when He instituted the Eucharist. It's not just another ritual.

Taking the body and blood of the Lord in the Eucharist does not provide any kind of "spiritual charge." Jesus presented it as a matter of eternal life and second death.

Remember what He said:

Jhn 6:53-58 Then Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. (See John 15: 5-6 below)
As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. This (indicating His body) is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

That sound pretty serious to me. It sounds like He is driving the point home by repeating over and over that you must eat His flesh and drink His blood if you expect to have eternal life. The way you eat and drink if to consume the bread and wine which is (as a spiritual reality) His body and blood.

Jhn 15:5-6 I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

At John 6 Jesus tells us what we must do to abide in Him and at John 15 He tells us the consequence of not abiding in Him.

I just take Him at His word without trying to second guess what He might have "really meant." He said that, to have eternal life, I must eat His flesh and drink His blood and HE made that possible by making the bread HIs body and the wine His blood.

Individual mileage may vary
 
I've been to a passover meal and they are full of symbolism so it isn't out of the realm of possibility that this is symbolism.
Also, given that Jesus frequently spoke out against the Pharisees and their traditions and rituals, I highly doubt he would institute a ritual that requires we actually eat and drink his flesh and blood (whether spiritually or literally) in order to get some kind of spiritual recharge.
John 3:6 - That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
When we are saved, born-again, we have the Holy Spirit.
Jesus was baptized and he told the disciples to do the Lord's Supper in remembrance of him. But when you start saying that you have to partake of the Lord's Supper and get baptized you are saying your faith is based on works.
(Side note: religions always fixate on these outward shows, rather than the other things that Jesus also told us to do, like loving God above all, loving your neighbor more than yourself, being a cheerful giver, etc etc - which should be proof enough of how false this idea is)

The thief on the cross next to Jesus only had time to confess with his mouth and he was saved.
The thief on the cross was saved by His faith in Jesus. "Lord" remember me when you come into "your Kingdom" The other guy on the other cross who asked something of Jesus didn't receive any reply. He didn't believe in Jesus.
We are sanctified by faith in Him and one who has the Spirit of Christ in them is One with Him. Cleary as you see on this board there are those that see a need for communion to be in Him. I don't and as I read you don't. I think at this point everyone is repeating over and over the differences and we should at this point agree to disagree. And move on. As I am sure there are many more things in the faith that we can agree on.
I see communion as a memorial context such as do this in do this remembrance of Jesus. And as such it would be considered Holy by God.
Disagreements -its the same with a pretrib rapture. I don't agree with such a teaching some do.
 
the memorial come into play when we partake do this in remembrance ..while i dont believe Communion is just a memorial .it is sacred it should be done in the proper spirit .not under some carnal guidelines. i dont know about any other denom gen baptist handbook calls for ordained authorities only serve . but partaking of communion dos not save us .if that been the case i was saved many moons ago in the united Methodist church . i was in the wrong and explanation should have been given
 
The theif on the cross probably wished he could have been where Judas was...
But Judas wished to go where the Theif went...
 
The thief on the cross was saved by His faith in Jesus. "Lord" remember me when you come into "your Kingdom" The other guy on the other cross who asked something of Jesus didn't receive any reply. He didn't believe in Jesus.
We are sanctified by faith in Him and one who has the Spirit of Christ in them is One with Him. Cleary as you see on this board there are those that see a need for communion to be in Him. I don't and as I read you don't. I think at this point everyone is repeating over and over the differences and we should at this point agree to disagree. And move on. As I am sure there are many more things in the faith that we can agree on.
I see communion as a memorial context such as do this in do this remembrance of Jesus. And as such it would be considered Holy by God.
Disagreements -its the same with a pretrib rapture. I don't agree with such a teaching some do.

Randy - I'm not quite sure what your ultimate point is here. Yes, pretty much everyone on this site can agree that Jesus died on the cross to save sinners, but then we all have different viewpoints on other topics such as baptism, communion, the pre-trib rapture, divorce, sobriety, and on and on.
We can argue over this stuff all day long, but there is an authority that has the final word on this topic . . or maybe I should say final Word . . see where I'm going here?
A lot of the epistles contain explanations and teaching that was/is meant to correct the churches that were already falling prey to false doctrines and confusion.
Modern Christians are divided up nicely into denominations that believe their own versions of scripture but there is still only one truth. So when I see someone trying to spread the false idea that you must take communion to have Christ dwelling in you I have to disagree, lest they lead someone else astray.
When Christ died on the cross and said "It is finished" - that meant a new deal had been struck and was complete. Aside from believing on Christ, there is no good deed or act man can do to help save themselves.
Beware false doctrines - 1 Timothy 6: 3-4

Are you suggesting that we should all just read everyone else's posts and either just agree with or ignore them?
 
How do you see a "memorial context" supported by John 6:53-58?

1 corinth
The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, 24and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes
 
Randy - I'm not quite sure what your ultimate point is here. Yes, pretty much everyone on this site can agree that Jesus died on the cross to save sinners, but then we all have different viewpoints on other topics such as baptism, communion, the pre-trib rapture, divorce, sobriety, and on and on.
We can argue over this stuff all day long, but there is an authority that has the final word on this topic . . or maybe I should say final Word . . see where I'm going here?
A lot of the epistles contain explanations and teaching that was/is meant to correct the churches that were already falling prey to false doctrines and confusion.
Modern Christians are divided up nicely into denominations that believe their own versions of scripture but there is still only one truth. So when I see someone trying to spread the false idea that you must take communion to have Christ dwelling in you I have to disagree, lest they lead someone else astray.
When Christ died on the cross and said "It is finished" - that meant a new deal had been struck and was complete. Aside from believing on Christ, there is no good deed or act man can do to help save themselves.
Beware false doctrines - 1 Timothy 6: 3-4

Are you suggesting that we should all just read everyone else's posts and either just agree with or ignore them?
Feel free to state what you want to state. I agree with your view point in this thread.
 
The theif on the cross probably wished he could have been where Judas was...
But Judas wished to go where the Theif went...
I am sure there are many who regret the choices they made while in the life of the body.
No mission trips, no prison ministries, etc. etc. . The guy just asked and received.
 
Are you suggesting that we should all just read everyone else's posts and either just agree with or ignore them?

Let me address this a bit, if I can. This idea here is pretty discouraging to me, so I hope to help others process this in a healthy fashion.

The challenge to a good community is how to act when we disagree. Online that has special challenges because we don't get non-verbal cues, easily assume tone that was never intended, and a host of other problems.

Expressing disagreement here is perfectly fine. The best thing to do after that is to seek to understand what the other is saying, which is the opposite of our natural tendency to focus on our own view.

Once people have asked all the questions we can think of to better understand an opposing viewpoint, and gotten meaningful answers to those questions, what Randy's saying here comes into play. That's time to respect one another as fellow sojourners, and move on rather than beat dead horses and exacerbate division.
 
Here's putting my above idea into action a different way. Randy says it's obvious that some here think taking Communion is essential to Salvation. Personally, I haven't seen that; then again I don't keep up with the theology section that much because the strife I see makes me ill. I find healthy discussion edifying, and a great way to learn as well as to turn my heart and mind towards worship.

Who here holds the view that
no Lord's supper = no Salvation? (And please, no speaking for anyone else)
 
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