Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The fall of Lucifer/Satan

for_his_glory

Fight the good fight of faith
2024 Supporter
Ezekiel 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

I want to mainly work off of these scriptures to show that Satan was created to be a holy cherub of God and then the reason how he fell from grace. I see Ezekiel 28:13-15 as a dual reference to Satan. The Bible classifies some angels as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21) or “holy” (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38). All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of heaven (Mark 13:32).

Other angels oppose God under the leadership of Satan (Isaiah 14:12-20) whom even Satan is a created spirit of God that is why God could never destroy him because a spirit can not die. (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1: 6; Ephesians 6:12). We often call these types of angels demons for which an everlasting fire is prepared by God for these angels.

Ezekiel Chapter 25-32 is God's judgement on the Gentile nations. Judah's nearest neighbors may gloat over her destruction, but they will be next in line. They will also suffer the fate of seige and destruction of Babylon. Ezekiel shows the full circle of judgement on the nations that surround Judah by following then in a clockwise circuit: Ammon, Moab, Edom, Philistia, Tyrus and Sidon. Ezekiel spends a disproportionate amount of time on Tyrus. Many scholars believe that the king/ Prince of Tyrus in vs. 11-19 may be Satan, the real power behind the nations, Isaiah 14:12.

Since the beginning of Gods creation of the heavens and earth in Genesis chapter one there has been an adversary that separates us from God through deceit, temptations and lies. This adversary has many names which include: Lucifer (could be a dual referent to Isaiah 14:12, but no mention in scripture as to, or even if God gave him a name), Satan, Devil, Beelzebub, Belial, Adversary, Dragon, Serpent and I’m sure a few others, but the important thing is who this being is and what purpose did he have and still has in heaven and earth. How did he come into existence in the first place and why was he not destroyed for his evil! Let us go and search the word of God for the answers.

God is a Spirit without form and the Lord made his angels spirits without form also. From these two scriptures below in John and Psalms we see that the inhabitants of heaven are not flesh and blood, but spirits created by God that cannot be destroyed by physical death, thus the term spiritual death that separates us from God. This is why Satan could never be physically destroyed, John 4:24; Psalms 104:4

In the Roman language Lucifer was the name given to the morning star Venus. The morning star appears in the sky just before dawn. In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can be translated as Day star, son of the Dawn. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor Day star, son of the Dawn, as Lucifer, and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place from the Latin in that of interpreting Lucifer into a fallen angel now named Satan. In the original Hebrew day star, son of the dawn is used, but not for that of Satan, but for the king of Babylon. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light (Jesus) to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded.

The name Satan comes from a Hebrew word sah-TAHN which means adversary as in signifying an enemy, and an accuser, father of lies.

Satan was created perfect in all his ways with beauty, wisdom and freewill. God placed him as one of the two guardian cherubs covering the atonement cover of the ark in the tabernacle of God in heaven. He was entrusted with many possessions and found much favor in the Lord, Ezekiel 28:14, 15. The physical Tabernacle or Sanctuary in Jerusalem was patterned after the heavenly Tabernacle of God in heaven, Hebrews 9:1-5, 23,24; Exodus 25:17-22; 1 Kings 6:19-28. These scriptures describe the cherubim in the earthly Temple patterned after the heavenly. Ezekiel 28:12-15 identifies an angelic being who is called the anointed cherub who covers and he was on the holy mountain of God. We can only assume that Lucifer/Satan was one of the cherubs by the description in those scripture.

God created the earth and saw that it was good and he took Lucifer from Gods Holy Mountain and set him over the Garden of Eden as a covering cherub to watch over and enjoy all that was of God. As Lucifer was set in the garden iniquity was soon found in him as he defiled Gods sanctuary through pride in his own beauty and deceit as he wanted all that was of Gods here on earth to be his own as he tried to make his throne above the angels and be God.

Because iniquity was found in him God cast him and those angels who chose to follow him out of his holy mountain and cast them all down to earth to be trampled of all nations. The only reference in scripture that denotes there being one third of the angels falling with Satan is in Revelation 12:9.​
 
To for_his_glory

An important subject for sure.

We have been given more information in Scripture than many are aware of concerning satan and this angelic rebellion and warfare that is going on constantly.

In any works of 'Systematic Theology', there should always be a category of 'Angelology' where one can find the subject addressed. I say 'should' because I'm not sure that all do include it. Sometimes it is included in 'Hamartiology' which is the doctrine of sin. I have found the book, 'The Invisible War' by Donald Grey Barnhouse very helpful and thorough on this subject.

The Christian needs to know this warfare is real and affects him/her. The role of governments and nations is pivotal in this war as 'rule, power, and authority' are the very origin of satan's fall. And God allows this war to play out even to the degree of allowing satan and his angels maintaining their former rank. Though satan was fallen, Michael the archangel, a very powerful angel himself, could not come against satan on his own when contesting satan over the body of Moses. (Jude 1:8-9) He could only say 'The Lord rebuke thee'.

I have often wondered, and that is all one can do concerning much of this subject, as to when satan first came to knowledge about God's plan to have man as ruler over the earth and not the angels. (Heb. 2:5) With the earth as satan's sphere of authority, did he learn that God was going to make another creature, man who would be given authority over the earth, and that in turn created a jealousy and sin in him causing his fall? In other words, God's purpose was always for man to rule over the earth, not the angels. The creation of man was not just a by-product of satan's fall.

It certainly would explain satan's hatred for mankind. Most especially because of these would be the real, true, sons of God. But other explanations explain satan's hatred for man also.

Quantrill
 
Last edited:
Thank you Quantrill for that input. It's only when we find the origin is when we start the process of understanding as we search it all out.
 
Perhaps the 1st hurdle that should be jumped is Jesus' statement of the devil being a liar and murderer from the beginning, in John 8:44, with no truth in him

As I've pointed out to the thread starter previously, if this is not Satan, the devil's beginning, then we have an issue, with Satan having 2 beginnings.

One beginning as a Holy entity with truth in him.

And another beginning as a liar/murderer with no truth in him
 
Perhaps the 1st hurdle that should be jumped is Jesus' statement of the devil being a liar and murderer from the beginning, in John 8:44, with no truth in him

As I've pointed out to the thread starter previously, if this is not Satan, the devil's beginning, then we have an issue, with Satan having 2 beginnings.

One beginning as a Holy entity with truth in him.

And another beginning as a liar/murderer with no truth in him
This will be a simplistic comment.
Revelation 2:17 kjv
17. He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.


Revelation 12:9 kjv
9. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Good and bad guys sometimes have two or more names.

eddif
 
Perhaps the 1st hurdle that should be jumped is Jesus' statement of the devil being a liar and murderer from the beginning, in John 8:44, with no truth in him

As I've pointed out to the thread starter previously, if this is not Satan, the devil's beginning, then we have an issue, with Satan having 2 beginnings.

One beginning as a Holy entity with truth in him.

And another beginning as a liar/murderer with no truth in him
I want to concentrate on the word "beginning" for a moment to make my point. Here is the definition: "the point in time or space at which something starts"

Angels and humans all have a beginning as like the angels who were created perfect in all their ways in the beginning we as created humans were all wonderfully made in the image of God, Genesis 1:26-27. What changed from that very first perfect beginning is that like Satan iniquity was found in us. We have many beginnings in life from the very first beginning when we were born. Grant it, Satan was not born like we are, but yet was created by God in his beginning of time.

Just like God's plan for creating humans before the foundation of the world, we like the angels were all created to be holy and without blame before God, Ephesians 1:4. All God's created angels, including the one who we call Satan, were created perfect being holy without blame before Him as we see the words "holy angels, in Matthew 25:31: Mark 8:38. There is no such thing as a "holy Satan" but that he was created holy before iniquity was later found in him.

Ezekiel 28:13-15 I believe is a dual reference to Satan who was perfect in all his ways when God first created him, and the reason for his fall as soon after being placed in the Garden of Eden was iniquity found in him. Iniquity was not found in Satan before he was placed in the garden.

John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus is chastising these certain Jews as he compares them to Satan as they plotted to kill Jesus. They had no truth found in them, for if they would had known Jesus as the Messiah, they would have known the Father who sent Him.
 
We are, according to Jesus, to love our enemies. I sometimes wonder if this applies to Satan.

Best wishes, 2RM.
IMO, I think Matthew 5:43-48 Jesus is speaking about humans, not Satan, that are our enemies as we are to love and pray for them. God does not love Satan and has already judged this fallen angel in whom will be cast into the lake of fire God has already prepared for him, Rev 20:10.
 
Psalm 8:4 kjv
4. What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5. For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Genesis 2:7 kjv
7. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This living soul had to eat of the tree of life to be immortal

Being born again of the spirit holds promise till the last trump when the final changes take place.

Then maybe Mississippi rednecks just don ‘t know.
eddif
 
Psalm 8:4 kjv
4. What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5. For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

Genesis 2:7 kjv
7. And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

This living soul had to eat of the tree of life to be immortal

Being born again of the spirit holds promise till the last trump when the final changes take place.

Then maybe Mississippi rednecks just don ‘t know.
eddif
Not sure of the relevance of this is to the OP. Can you elaborate on this?
 
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus is chastising these certain Jews as he compares them to Satan as they plotted to kill Jesus. They had no truth found in them, for if they would had known Jesus as the Messiah, they would have known the Father who sent Him.
Jesus looked Peter in the face and spoke to Satan. Matthew 16:23

Satan entered Judas. Luke 22:3, John 13:27

What makes you think Jesus wasn't addressing "children of the devil" in those Jews in John 8:44, exactly as Mark 4:15 or the above scriptures show us? Rather than "just Jews." These are not "comparisons to Satan." These are Satan and devils in them, in their own minds.

Jesus would not, and could not claim Jews are devils or even like devils, since He's termed them children of God in Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, and Matthew 23:9 for examples. Those men were not devils. They were captives.

God did not see iniquity in Jacob or Israel:

Numbers 23:21

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob, neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: the Lord his God is with him, and the shout of a king is among them.

Those who see only people in scriptures and miss the tempter and his own, also "in them" who have them held as blinded captives are not apt to see these things in the same light as others who do see 2 parties, mankind and devils, in the same pair of shoes.

As to the 2 beginning theory of Satan, one as a perfect Holy Angel, and another beginning as the devil, Satan, the great dragon, the sinner, that is quite a reach given there is not a single statement showing Satan as Holy, specifically, HOLY. Which we've hacked to death at this point.

Short version of Holy Satan. It's entirely surmised and can easily be read in other ways, such as Satan being perfect "in all his ways" those being DEMONIC ways.

The term angel has no bearing or relationship to being Holy either. The term merely means messenger, and there are holy messengers and there are wicked messengers:

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
 
Angels and humans all have a beginning as like the angels who were created perfect in all their ways in the beginning we as created humans were all wonderfully made in the image of God, Genesis 1:26-27. What changed from that very first perfect beginning is that like Satan iniquity was found in us. We have many beginnings in life from the very first beginning when we were born. Grant it, Satan was not born like we are, but yet was created by God in his beginning of time.
This prompted my comments. Sorry if I missed something or added to.

eddif
 
As I've pointed out to the thread starter previously, if this is not Satan, the devil's beginning, then we have an issue, with Satan having 2 beginnings.

One beginning as a Holy entity with truth in him.

And another beginning as a liar/murderer with no truth in him
We as Christians have two beginnings so can Satan have two beginnings , yes I think he can .

Our first beginning is being born of the womb .

Our second beginning is when we exercised our freewill and are born again and become Christians !

Satan's first beginning was as a cherub created by God .

Satan's second beginning was when he exercised his freewill and chose a fallen direction .

Just my :twocents worth .

Lots to think about in this thread . Good thread for_his_glory .
 
Perhaps the 1st hurdle that should be jumped is Jesus' statement of the devil being a liar and murderer from the beginning, in John 8:44, with no truth in him

As I've pointed out to the thread starter previously, if this is not Satan, the devil's beginning, then we have an issue, with Satan having 2 beginnings.

One beginning as a Holy entity with truth in him.

And another beginning as a liar/murderer with no truth in him

No hurdle or issue. God knows every being He has created as to who he is. That includes you and me. He doesn't need to wait till we make a decision. He knows.

He knew who the devil was, just as He knew who Judas was. Yet He chose him, a devil. It wasn't until Judas made that decision to betray Jesus Christ that it then became an actual force in time and history. But it was always known to God.

satan was created perfect and holy. Doesn't matter as God knew who he was. he was a murderer and a liar. That would not be evident to the rest of creation until the rebellion. But God always knew.

Point being, (John 8:44) is no hurdle. It's a hurdle with you, for some doctrine you want it to support. But it is no hurdle.

Quantrill
 
We as Christians have two beginnings so can Satan have two beginnings , yes I think he can .

Our first beginning is being born of the womb .

Our second beginning is when we exercised our freewill and are born again and become Christians !

Satan's first beginning was as a cherub created by God .

Satan's second beginning was when he exercised his freewill and chose a fallen direction .

Just my :twocents worth .

Lots to think about in this thread . Good thread for_his_glory .
Thank you as there is no simpler way of explaining that which you have given :thumbsup
 
We are, according to Jesus, to love our enemies. I sometimes wonder if this applies to Satan.

Best wishes, 2RM.
IMO, I think Matthew 5:43-48 Jesus is speaking about humans, not Satan, that are our enemies as we are to love and pray for them. God does not love Satan and has already judged this fallen angel in whom will be cast into the lake of fire God has already prepared for him, Rev 20:10.

Our first disagreement, FHG. :) And greetings, 2nd Rate Mind. Welcome to this forum.

John said "God is love," meaning it is a state in which He exists (1 John 4:7-21). Thus, even in executing judgment God does so in love, hoping to correct the sinner and/or protect the saints against wickedness, violence and deception. There is no hope of redeeming Satan at this point, yet nevertheless God becomes something other than who He IS if he allows Himself to walk in hate towards the Devil. I think He still loves even those in Hell, despite the fact that their time for repentance has long since expired as well.
 
Last edited:
Jesus looked Peter in the face and spoke to Satan. Matthew 16:23
Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Jesus was foretelling of His death and resurrection. Peter could not understand this and started rebuking Jesus. This is why Jesus said, get thee behind me Satan, for like Satan, Peter could not understand the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Even after Jesus was arrested Peter denied Him three times. It would not be until Peter's Spiritual eyes were opened on the day of Pentecost that he would understand the death and resurrection of Christ.
Satan entered Judas. Luke 22:3, John 13:27
I think we all agree with that, but Satan can not enter one who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit.
What makes you think Jesus wasn't addressing "children of the devil" in those Jews in John 8:44, exactly as Mark 4:15 or the above scriptures show us? Rather than "just Jews." These are not "comparisons to Satan." These are Satan and devils in them, in their own minds.
Read Matthew Chapter 23 as Jesus first characterizes the scribes and Pharisee's and then condemns them for their actions. Of course they were of their father the devil as they chose to take action on the thoughts he planted in their minds that defiled them. We can have thoughts, but unless we take action on them they are only thoughts we can get rid of.
Jesus would not, and could not claim Jews are devils or even like devils, since He's termed them children of God in Deut. 14:1, Psalm 82:6, and Matthew 23:9 for examples. Those men were not devils. They were captives.
Not sure I ever said humans are devils, but yes, many are captive when they take action from their heart of the things Satan tempts them with in the thoughts of their minds.

Romans 9:1-8 not all of Israel are of Israel. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
 
Those who see only people in scriptures and miss the tempter and his own, also "in them" who have them held as blinded captives are not apt to see these things in the same light as others who do see 2 parties, mankind and devils, in the same pair of shoes.

As to the 2 beginning theory of Satan, one as a perfect Holy Angel, and another beginning as the devil, Satan, the great dragon, the sinner, that is quite a reach given there is not a single statement showing Satan as Holy, specifically, HOLY. Which we've hacked to death at this point.

Short version of Holy Satan. It's entirely surmised and can easily be read in other ways, such as Satan being perfect "in all his ways" those being DEMONIC ways.

The term angel has no bearing or relationship to being Holy either. The term merely means messenger, and there are holy messengers and there are wicked messengers:

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
These are only your views as you pick and choose scriptures to prove your point, but yet leave out all the other scriptures that discredit your theology. I have given you the scriptures that literally says "holy angels". I and a few others have showed you several times in scripture that this angel was created holy, but fell from that status when iniquity was found in him. It is you that remains blinded as you refuse the scriptures over your own theology.

Why would God make angels or humans evil when God hates evil.
 
Back
Top