The fall of Lucifer/Satan

[hawkman]

Thus it is that God created Lucifer, and how it is that the temptings of Satan cannot help but be God's work.

Is this true ? I say no .

God loved us and the angels so much , so VERY much that he blessed us with an "imperfection" when he created us ! Say what ?!?

And that "imperfection" is freewill .

We were created in the image of God and part of that image is freewill .

Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

God created mankind and the angels as perfect and holy as they could be and still have freewill .

As you know our freewill gives us a CHOICE of evil or good .

God did NOT make satan evil . Satan chose evil just as we can chose evil .

We are responsible for our sins .

 

[for_his_glory]

it seems odd that you concede (it's nearly impossible to not agree when there is direct statements) that Satan entered Judas, but then you seem to skirt the issue with Peter, actually terming Peter to be "like" Satan, but not as Jesus speaking to Satan in Peter, which is how I read it.

You might understand that in both events we are seeing the reality of Mark 4:15 played out in those events. I might even see Peter's denial of Jesus in the same vein, as Peter being pawned by Satan.

It is probably the 2nd most unique thing presented in the scriptures, the first being Christ in us who believe.

It is written in the scriptures that the devil entered into Judas as there is no question about that, Luke 22:3.

But according to Matthew 16:23 and Luke 4:15 it says nothing about Satan entering into them Peter or those who heard the word, but Satan took it from them. You simply can not force your thinking into what has already been written by adding to the word.

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

 

[for_his_glory]

I like some of the things you mentioned. For me, I tend to despise some of same things God does in the things I see men do, including some of those mentioned in your verses. But when I see terrible judgment come upon them, my anger at them is assuaged. Eventually, I start to feel pity for them if their judgment and suffering goes on long enough. I think this is the way He feels about the wicked in Hell. Certainly they angered Him in their lives by their sins, but in Hell they are just pitiful souls paying the price now for what they did with their earthly lives. As for Satan, I think the Lord Jesus knows the same torments are coming to him. The word has been spoken over him and will not return void that he is destined to be cast into the Lake of Fire.

I just think that like me, God's anger will be assuaged, even against Satan, when he finally starts paying the price for all the evils he committed.

Thanks for the reply.

It's sad that so many will never understand the love God has for them, even when we try to tell them.

 

[for_his_glory]

I think we can agree in this way. God 'tempts' us to do good. Satan tempts us to do evil. But we make the decision as to which we shall do. But either way, it seems to me, for good or for ill, God's work is done. If we choose the good, we grow in strength of spirit, and are more capable of resisting evil. If we choose Satan's way, our spirit is corroded, and we are less capable of resisting evil. And it is our extent of spirit, our way of being, that I believe to be the vital factor in deciding on the quality of our lives hereafter. Unorthodox? To be sure, but for me it all hangs together that way.

Best wishes, 2RM.

I agree with this as God does not force anything on us, but it is we who pay the consequences for our actions, whether they be good or bad choices we make. It's not always Satan's fault as we make our own choices, but Satan can enter into those who are not God's own for his purpose of destruction.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians.

God gave Pharaoh and the Egyptians a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but they rejected God.

 

[for_his_glory]

I reject the holy Satan theories exactly for the reasons you describe above, making Satan a holy perfect being. I can read and see a perfect devil in scriptures, but that alien entity is never shown or stated as holy.

Satan is described as a covering. That covering by him is upon mankind. Most of the theories you've postulated also discount this conjunction of mankind and Satan, seeing and accusing only Jews in your example, or only Adam and Eve for another example, but never seeing any of them as captives of the devil, as Jesus shows us in Mark 4:15, or Paul shows us Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 or as John in 1 John 3:8.

Satan is directly associated with works of darkness, slumber and covering, because that's exactly what God made Satan to do and perform. To capture, resist God, blind the people and sin.

Holy? Never. Invisible vile entity? Assuredly, beyond any doubt, a perfect devil.

IF iniquity was "in him" Satan was far from perfect to start with in any case of sights.

These are not my own theories, but straight from that which has already been written if you would read the scriptures without adding or taking away from them.

There is no such thing as a holy Satan on this side of his rebellion in the garden of Eden when iniquity was first found in him. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

We were all perfect in our ways when God created us and breathed His breath of life in us that made us a living soul when we were born.

Please answer this question, Did God create his angels, or even us to be evil, or is that by ones choice?

 

[for_his_glory]

Satan is described as a covering.

please show me the scripture for this.

 

[for_his_glory]

Satan is directly associated with works of darkness, slumber and covering, because that's exactly what God made Satan to do and perform. To capture, resist God, blind the people and sin.

I agree with the first part, but you have to prove that God made him that way. Where is your proof?

 

[for_his_glory]

God created all things. Even the power of evil (Hab. 2:9).

Habakkuk 2:9 Woe to him that coveteth an evil covetousness to his house, that he may set his nest on high, that he may be delivered from the power of evil!

You really need to quit adding to the scriptures words that are just not there. It says nothing about God creating the power of evil.


The Bible classifies some angels as “elect” (1 Timothy 5:21) or “holy” (Matthew 25:31; Mark 8:38). All angels were created to be holy, enjoying the presence of God (Matthew 18:10) and the beauty of heaven (Mark 13:32). But, the angel we call Satan who has been given many names rebelled against God as he became prideful and wanted everything that was God's as he wanted to be God , Ezekiel 28:13-17. Within his rebellion he also took a third of the angels who followed after Him and cast them down to the earth, Rev 12:3, 4. These angels oppose God under the leadership of Satan as being his messengers here on earth as they too are created spirits of God that is why God could never destroy any of them because a spirit can not die. (Matthew 25:41; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1: 6; Ephesians 6:12). We often call these types of angels demons/devils/evil spirits/unclean spirits for which an everlasting fire is prepared by God for Satan and these angels, Matthew 25:41.

The term demon comes from the Greek "daimon". Demons (fallen angels) are also called evil spirits, unclean spirits and devils in scripture as they are disembodied spirits as angels have no form. The use of the terminology of demons, evil spirits, unclean spirits and devils are interchangeable in scripture as they all mean the same thing. They exist in a demonic realm as principalities, Romans 8:38, 39; Ephesians 6:12, and have a hierarchy of rulership controlled by Satan as being his messengers, Matthew 12:22-30; Mark 3:22; Luke 4:35. They have no physical form, but can viciously posses a body, Matthew 8:16-31; 12:43-45. Demons are numerous in numbering and can also speak like the Legion (2000) of unclean spirits in Mark 5:9.

Strong's Concordance: Demon
Part of speech: noun masculine
Transliteration: daimon
Definition: a demon
Usage: evil spirit, demon

 

[for_his_glory]

There is no such statement applied to Satan, period. You think you've cited them when as a fact, there is no such statement of Holy Satan.

In any case if iniquity was "in him" he wasn't so perfect in any case, even less, Holy.

Where have I ever used the term "Holy Satan? It is only you that uses this term. I believe I have called him a holy angel as in all the scriptures I have given you that state holy angels.

If you want to believe God created this evil angel, in whatever name one wants to call him as I don't know if God ever named this spirit being, then my friend you are so misled. How in the fathom of your own mind could you ever believe God created an evil angel, selecting and choosing this spirit out of all the angels He created to rule the world in darkness.

Does every bad thought that enters your own mind controlled by Satan, or your own emotions in which sometimes you act upon those emotions by the negative words you speak against others?

 

[for_his_glory]

In any case if iniquity was "in him" he wasn't so perfect in any case, even less, Holy.

Um, how did you become a sinner after you were made perfect in the image of God? Did the devil make you sin, or was it by the bad choices you sinned needing a Savior Redeemer.

 

[hawkman]

There is no such thing as a holy Satan on this side of his rebellion in the garden of Eden when iniquity was first found in him. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Yes ! Exactly right .

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was perfect in his ways but as we know he was NOT perfect in his thoughts ! And that was his undoing .

As Christians we have to work to control our thoughts less we fall into sin too .

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

We are on the same page for_his_glory

 

[for_his_glory]

It's my opinion that you are dealing with the very fine divisions between body, soul, and spirit. All of mankind are made up of body, soul, and spirit. The believer's spirit is alive to God. The unbeliever's is dead to God. The unbeliever walks only by the soul and body, and becomes slave to the affects of the world upon the body.

The believer can walk in salvation as his soul has access to his spirit which is alive to God.

Only God can identify and see these divisions. (Heb. 4:12)

You should read 'The Spiritual Man' by Watchman Nee.

Quantrill

I would be a little Leary about Watchman Nee. He said he received God's revelations outside of the Bible, but we know that the fullness of God's revelations are contained in scripture alone. God does not speak to us through direct revelations, but through His word through His Holy Spirit.

Just my , be careful for what you read outside of scripture.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes ! Exactly right .

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Satan was perfect in his ways but as we know he was NOT perfect in his thoughts ! And that was his undoing .

As Christians we have to work to control our thoughts less we fall into sin too .

2 Corinthians 10:5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

We are on the same page for_his_glory

 

[Quantrill]

Judas was a man, not a spirit being.


Here is the definition of devil used in John 6;

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:70-71



Devil — Strong's G1228 - diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

Judas Iscariot was a man, one of the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ, destined to reign and rule with Christ and the other eleven are n the age to come, but became a traitor.






JLB

I never said Judas wasn't a man. I just said what Jesus said. (John 6:70).

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I would be a little Leary about Watchman Nee. He said he received God's revelations outside of the Bible, but we know that the fullness of God's revelations are contained in scripture alone. God does not speak to us through direct revelations, but through His word through His Holy Spirit.

Just my , be careful for what you read outside of scripture.

I appreciate your concern.

Watchman Nee was a very 'spiritual man'. I think a follower of his, Witness Lee, got off track. But I am not aware of Watchman Nee getting off track. Watchman Nee was eventually killed, martyred, by the communist Chinese.

I would be interested where he wrote concerning God's revelations. He wrote quite a few books, and I have always benfited from them.

Quantrill

 

[for_his_glory]

I appreciate your concern.

Watchman Nee was a very 'spiritual man'. I think a follower of his, Witness Lee, got off track. But I am not aware of Watchman Nee getting off track. Watchman Nee was eventually killed, martyred, by the communist Chinese.

I would be interested where he wrote concerning God's revelations. He wrote quite a few books, and I have always benfited from them.

Quantrill

Watchman Lee not only got off track, but wrecked that train he was traveling on. But I digress, as everyone who is interested can look him up at: Watchman Lee Nee

 

[Quantrill]

Watchman Lee not only got off track, but wrecked that train he was traveling on. But I digress, as everyone who is interested can look him up at: Watchman Lee Nee

It is Watchman Nee. Not Watchman Lee. Witness Lee was a different person.

Well, I don't think Watchman wrecked any train. And you certainly haven't provided anything to prove otherwise. As I said, or asked, where did he say what you said he did? I could remark concerning it, but I would like to know what exactly he said before I do.

I think you are confusing him with someone else. All his writings that I have read were very good.

Dying for you faith in Christ doesn't necesarily mean you are correct in all your doctrine. But it certainly calls for me to read for myself what he is saying instead of just taking someone's word for it. And I have read much of what he wrote, and found it all to be good.

Quantrill

 

[smaller]

Um, how did you become a sinner after you were made perfect in the image of God? Did the devil make you sin, or was it by the bad choices you sinned needing a Savior Redeemer.

God has set good and evil, life and death, before all of us.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Keep in mind I believe Jesus was spot on, figuratively speaking when He stated that evil thoughts are defiling. I certainly have evil thoughts when temptations come. I recognize these as foreign intrusions. Just as Paul did when describing the working of sin in his flesh as "no longer I" in Romans 7:17-20. Or stating temptation was in his flesh in Gal. 4:14

Even when we "choose life" we do not eliminate good, evil or death.

Some people think all the other facts of good, evil and death go away. They don't. Choosing life puts us in the seat of dominion, but dominion is not located in denial

 

[smaller]

Where have I ever used the term "Holy Satan? It is only you that uses this term. I believe I have called him a holy angel

Is there really a difference?

 

[smaller]

You really need to quit adding to the scriptures words that are just not there. It says nothing about God creating the power of evil.

Basic: God created all things. No exceptions. I do not hold to any multiple creator theories, period. That is polytheism, no matter how it's described or spun.

Nothing in this universe created itself. Nothing.