The fall of Lucifer/Satan

[for_his_glory]

This prompted my comments. Sorry if I missed something or added to.

eddif

Thank you as now it makes sense. Created perfect receiving the breath of God, sin entered in, man now in a fallen state, a Redeemer has come to save the fallen man.

 

[for_his_glory]

Our first disagreement, FHG. And greetings, 2nd Rate Mind. Welcome to this forum.

John said "God is love," meaning it is a state in which He exists (1 John 4:7-21). Thus, even in executing judgment God does so in love, hoping to correct the sinner and/or protect the saints against wickedness, violence and deception. There is no hope of redeeming Satan at this point, yet nevertheless God becomes something other than who He IS if he allows Himself to walk in hate towards the Devil. I think He still loves even those in Hell, despite the fact that their time for repentance has long since expired as well.

Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Where do these evil things derive from, but through the thoughts that come to our mind. They are random, whether Satan places them there, or do they just pop up, could be both.

God saw all that he created as being good, which included the angels and God loves that which He created. Unfortunately, iniquity was/is found in all, but yet God knew it would happen, even within His own angels. This is why God's plan of salvation through Christ Jesus was before the foundation of the world, but given only to those He breathed the breath of life into that made them a living soul. Even though angels were created, they were not created immortal having souls like humans so there is no redeeming grace given to them for repentance as there could be no sacrifice for something that is not mortal.

Saying all of this first, I do believe God loves this fallen angel that is called by many names in the scriptures, but hates the sins he has caused in all the world as Satan and all the fallen angels have set their own course in God's judgement as like humans all have caused their own damnation in rejecting God knowing the difference between good and evil as they choose the path of evil as they walk in it.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians. God loved Pharaoh enough to give him a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but he had already set his path and would not be removed from it. Satan has set his path from the beginning when God set him in the garden of Eden and soon after iniquity was found in him wanting all that God had wanting to be his own God.

Satan has chosen his own path leading to his own damnation, just like mortals do, as he will be cast into the lake of fire in God's final judgement, the same as all whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Pro 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Pro 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Pro 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Pro 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Where do these evil things derive from, but through the thoughts that come to our mind. They are random, whether Satan places them there, or do they just pop up, could be both.

God saw all that he created as being good, which included the angels and God loves that which He created. Unfortunately, iniquity was/is found in all, but yet God knew it would happen, even within His own angels. This is why God's plan of salvation through Christ Jesus was before the foundation of the world, but given only to those He breathed the breath of life into that made them a living soul. Even though angels were created, they were not created immortal having souls like humans so there is no redeeming grace given to them for repentance as there could be no sacrifice for something that is not mortal.

Saying all of this first, I do believe God loves this fallen angel that is called by many names in the scriptures, but hates the sins he has caused in all the world as Satan and all the fallen angels have set their own course in God's judgement as like humans all have caused their own damnation in rejecting God knowing the difference between good and evil as they choose the path of evil as they walk in it.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

The word translated "evil" is from a Hebrew word kelalah that means adversary, affliction, calamity, distress and misery. This is what God has created and puts on those who He has cursed for their rebellion against Him so they know "I AM" in all sovereignty, Deuteronomy 27:11-26.

Exodus Chapter 7-11 is a witness of the "Great I AM" and what God brought forth in His affliction, calamity, distress and misery on Pharaoh and the Egyptians. God loved Pharaoh enough to give him a chance to repent and turn back to Him, but he had already set his path and would not be removed from it. Satan has set his path from the beginning when God set him in the garden of Eden and soon after iniquity was found in him wanting all that God had wanting to be his own God.

Satan has chosen his own path leading to his own damnation, just like mortals do, as he will be cast into the lake of fire in God's final judgement, the same as all whose names are not written in the Lamb's Book of Life.

I like some of the things you mentioned. For me, I tend to despise some of same things God does in the things I see men do, including some of those mentioned in your verses. But when I see terrible judgment come upon them, my anger at them is assuaged. Eventually, I start to feel pity for them if their judgment and suffering goes on long enough. I think this is the way He feels about the wicked in Hell. Certainly they angered Him in their lives by their sins, but in Hell they are just pitiful souls paying the price now for what they did with their earthly lives. As for Satan, I think the Lord Jesus knows the same torments are coming to him. The word has been spoken over him and will not return void that he is destined to be cast into the Lake of Fire.

I just think that like me, God's anger will be assuaged, even against Satan, when he finally starts paying the price for all the evils he committed.

Thanks for the reply.

 

[2ndRateMind]

I ought to mention a theme pertaining to moral evil that has not yet been addressed on this interesting thread. And that is, even in the best of all possible worlds, that evil has it's place. And that is to provide sentient, self-aware creatures with freedom of choice. If we could not choose to do evil, and could do only good, that freedom could not be expressed, and the growth in strength of spirit that the proper exercise of that freedom involves could not occur. Thus it is that God created Lucifer, and how it is that the temptings of Satan cannot help but be God's work.

Best wishes, 2RM

 

[Quantrill]

I ought to mention a theme pertaining to moral evil that has not yet been addressed on this interesting thread. And that is, even in the best of all possible worlds, that evil has it's place. And that is to provide sentient, self-aware creatures with freedom of choice. If we could not choose to do evil, and could do only good, that freedom could not be expressed, and the growth in strength of spirit that the proper exercise of that freedom involves could not occur. Thus it is that God created Lucifer, and how it is that the temptings of Satan cannot help but be God's work.

Best wishes, 2RM

No, you cannot attribute the temptings of satan as God's work. Scripture is clear, God tempts no man. (James 1:13)

Quantrill

 

[2ndRateMind]

I think we can agree in this way. God 'tempts' us to do good. Satan tempts us to do evil. But we make the decision as to which we shall do. But either way, it seems to me, for good or for ill, God's work is done. If we choose the good, we grow in strength of spirit, and are more capable of resisting evil. If we choose Satan's way, our spirit is corroded, and we are less capable of resisting evil. And it is our extent of spirit, our way of being, that I believe to be the vital factor in deciding on the quality of our lives hereafter. Unorthodox? To be sure, but for me it all hangs together that way.

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[smaller]

Jesus is chastising these certain Jews as he compares them to Satan as they plotted to kill Jesus. They had no truth found in them, for if they would had known Jesus as the Messiah, they would have known the Father who sent Him.

I reject the holy Satan theories exactly for the reasons you describe above, making Satan a holy perfect being. I can read and see a perfect devil in scriptures, but that alien entity is never shown or stated as holy.

Satan is described as a covering. That covering by him is upon mankind. Most of the theories you've postulated also discount this conjunction of mankind and Satan, seeing and accusing only Jews in your example, or only Adam and Eve for another example, but never seeing any of them as captives of the devil, as Jesus shows us in Mark 4:15, or Paul shows us Acts 26:18, 2 Cor. 4:4, Eph. 2:2 or as John in 1 John 3:8.

Satan is directly associated with works of darkness, slumber and covering, because that's exactly what God made Satan to do and perform. To capture, resist God, blind the people and sin.

Holy? Never. Invisible vile entity? Assuredly, beyond any doubt, a perfect devil.

IF iniquity was "in him" Satan was far from perfect to start with in any case of sights.

 

[smaller]

No, you cannot attribute the temptings of satan as God's work. Scripture is clear, God tempts no man. (James 1:13)

Quantrill

God does deal treacherously with His enemies, the devils. Retributive evils done by God are a well established principle.

God is not mocked, remember? IF God were not involved in providing the reaping what is sown, then it's only left to chance or circumstances, and that is never the case. God does bring retributions to evils.

Very few readers consider that God deals with devils "in mankind"

Yet Jesus engaged these entities continually, and did so in mankind.

 

[Quantrill]

I think we can agree in this way. God 'tempts' us to do good. Satan tempts us to do evil. But we make the decision as to which we shall do. But either way, it seems to me, for good or for ill, God's work is done. If we choose the good, we grow in strength of spirit, and are more capable of resisting evil. If we choose Satan's way, our spirit is corroded, and we are less capable of resisting evil. And it is our extent of spirit, our way of being, that I believe to be the vital factor in deciding on the quality of our lives hereafter. Unorthodox? To be sure, but for me it all hangs together that way.

Best wishes, 2RM.

Putting God's work by the Holy Spirit in the life of the believer on par with satan's tempting to do evil, is not good.

God's will is always accomplished. He can and does accomplish it in spite of the evil work of satan, and fallen man.

The Christian contends with 3 forces in this life. The world, the flesh, and the devil. (Eph. 2:1-3)

I don't know what you mean by 'extent of spirit, our way of being'.

Quantrill

 

[smaller]

Yet He chose him, a devil

Just to be clear, it appears you are terming Judas a devil? And of course that will bring up a host of theological issues

Feel free to clarify

 

[Quantrill]

God does deal treacherously with His enemies, the devils. Retributive evils done by God are a well established principle.

God is not mocked, remember? IF God were not involved in providing the reaping what is sown, then it's only left to chance or circumstances, and that is never the case. God does bring retributions to evils.

Very few readers consider that God deals with devils "in mankind"

Yet Jesus engaged these entities continually, and did so in mankind.

There is a big difference between evil as a destructive event or a judgement from God, and evil as force in the universe opposed to God, that is personified in the creature satan.

God can bring a judgement that destroys, but that is not evil. That is good. Because what God does is good.

The flood of Noah's day was a tremendous destruction and judgement. But it was good.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Just to be clear, it appears you are terming Judas a devil? And of course that will bring up a host of theological issues

Feel free to clarify

Jesus termed Judas as a devil.

(John 6:70) "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Quantrill

 

[2ndRateMind]

I don't know what you mean by 'extent of spirit, our way of being'.

Quantrill

Extent of spirit, and way of being, are difficult concepts to get one's head around, I admit, they being such abstract issues, and largely transparent to us as we go about our daily lives. So let me give a gross example. Take a drug addict, who lives for his next fix, having made, at some point in the past, the decision to start his habit. He doesn't care where the money comes from to fund it, and will lie, cheat and steal to ensure the next hit. What do you think of his way of being, and how weak has his spirit become?

Best wishes, 2RM.

 

[smaller]

Mat 16:23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

Jesus was foretelling of His death and resurrection. Peter could not understand this and started rebuking Jesus. This is why Jesus said, get thee behind me Satan, for like Satan, Peter could not understand the things that be of God, but those that be of men. Even after Jesus was arrested Peter denied Him three times. It would not be until Peter's Spiritual eyes were opened on the day of Pentecost that he would understand the death and resurrection of Christ.

I think we all agree with that, but Satan can not enter one who is indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

Read Matthew Chapter 23 as Jesus first characterizes the scribes and Pharisee's and then condemns them for their actions. Of course they were of their father the devil as they chose to take action on the thoughts he planted in their minds that defiled them. We can have thoughts, but unless we take action on them they are only thoughts we can get rid of.

Not sure I ever said humans are devils, but yes, many are captive when they take action from their heart of the things Satan tempts them with in the thoughts of their minds.

Romans 9:1-8 not all of Israel are of Israel. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

it seems odd that you concede (it's nearly impossible to not agree when there is direct statements) that Satan entered Judas, but then you seem to skirt the issue with Peter, actually terming Peter to be "like" Satan, but not as Jesus speaking to Satan in Peter, which is how I read it.

You might understand that in both events we are seeing the reality of Mark 4:15 played out in those events. I might even see Peter's denial of Jesus in the same vein, as Peter being pawned by Satan.

It is probably the 2nd most unique thing presented in the scriptures, the first being Christ in us who believe.

 

[smaller]

Jesus termed Judas as a devil.

(John 6:70) "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Quantrill

Sorry Quantrill. People are not devils. And Jews even less so.

Read Mark 4:15. Also read the scriptures that tell us directly, that Satan entered Judas.

Then tell me who is the devil, and I will say, obviously, the devil, Satan.

 

[smaller]

I have given you the scriptures that literally says "holy angels"

There is no such statement applied to Satan, period. You think you've cited them when as a fact, there is no such statement of Holy Satan.

In any case if iniquity was "in him" he wasn't so perfect in any case, even less, Holy.

 

[smaller]

Why would God make angels or humans evil when God hates evil.

God created all things. Even the power of evil (Hab. 2:9). God can and does use anything and everything in His creation for His Own Perfect Purposes, because He is powerful enough to do so, Perfectly.

Sin, evil and death will serve His Purposes. Even as His temporal servants.

Revelation 4:11
Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

I think God will take great delight in wrapping up the vile temporal things and tossing them in the lake of fire.

 

[Quantrill]

Extent of spirit, and way of being, are difficult concepts to get one's head around, I admit, they being such abstract issues, and largely transparent to us as we go about our daily lives. So let me give a gross example. Take a drug addict, who lives for his next fix, having made, at some point in the past, the decision to start his habit. He doesn't care where the money comes from to fund it, and will lie, cheat and steal to ensure the next hit. What do you think of his way of being, and how weak has his spirit become?

Best wishes, 2RM.

It's my opinion that you are dealing with the very fine divisions between body, soul, and spirit. All of mankind are made up of body, soul, and spirit. The believer's spirit is alive to God. The unbeliever's is dead to God. The unbeliever walks only by the soul and body, and becomes slave to the affects of the world upon the body.

The believer can walk in salvation as his soul has access to his spirit which is alive to God.

Only God can identify and see these divisions. (Heb. 4:12)

You should read 'The Spiritual Man' by Watchman Nee.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

Sorry Quantrill. People are not devils. And Jews even less so.

Read Mark 4:15. Also read the scriptures that tell us directly, that Satan entered Judas.

Then tell me who is the devil, and I will say, obviously, the devil, Satan.

Take it up with Jesus. He is the One Who said it.

So? satan entered Judas.

The devil is the devil. satan. We have already established that.

Quantrill

 

[JLB]

Jesus termed Judas as a devil.

(John 6:70) "Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?"

Quantrill

Judas was a man, not a spirit being.


Here is the definition of devil used in John 6;

Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?” He spoke of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, for it was he who would betray Him, being one of the twelve.
John 6:70-71



Devil — Strong's G1228 - diabolos

1. prone to slander, slanderous, accusing falsely
   1. a calumniator, false accuser, slanderer,
2. metaph. applied to a man who, by opposing the cause of God, may be said to act the part of the devil or to side with him

Judas Iscariot was a man, one of the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ, destined to reign and rule with Christ and the other eleven are n the age to come, but became a traitor.






JLB