The fall of Lucifer/Satan

[smaller]

I agree with the first part, but you have to prove that God made him that way. Where is your proof?

God created all things.

My view of Satan and his own "seeds" i.e. tempting deceiving lying devils is that they are petty inverse automatic resistors of God, anti-Christ spirits if you prefer, that have access to and operate in the minds of people as negative or evil thought forms.

When God is finished using them, they will be disposed of in the Lake of Fire.

And yes, God can and does use evil for good, because He Is Great Enough to pull that off

 

[smaller]

It is written in the scriptures that the devil entered into Judas as there is no question about that, Luke 22:3.

But according to Matthew 16:23 and Luke 4:15 it says nothing about Satan entering into them Peter

I'm glad you got to see Satan's entry into Judas. Yes, it's quite entirely obvious that there would be 2 parties standing there, in Judas and acting in Judas. That would be Satan and Judas.

Mark 4:15 is real.

Mark 4:15 also happened to Peter. Jesus spoke to Satan, as His Own Words show

Had Jesus said "get thee behind me Peter acting like Satan" I might agree. But that is not the case.

Jesus quite often spoke to both Satan and devils in mankind in the Gospels. Quite often. He resisted them, and sometimes, not always, cast them out. Or, if we pay close attention, was revealing them to be present therein, such as in John 8:44. This matter is one of the more unique disclosures of Christianity. The existence of other entities within mankind

Luke 11:24
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

 

[smaller]

Take it up with Jesus. He is the One Who said it.

So? satan entered Judas.

The devil is the devil. satan. We have already established that.

Quantrill

Yeah, well, Judas was not a devil. The devil is the devil.

Jesus said one of you is a devil.

Pick one. Judas or the devil?

 

[smaller]

your theology

Perhaps you'd like to define what that is.

I might say there could be a quite a difference between what you claim to be "my theology" and what I see in the scriptures.

Case in point Satan as a perfect holy angel and not seeing it that way, but Satan being a perfectly evil wicked angel messenger from the beginning, created to be exactly that by our Creator.

Theodicy is one of the more interesting subsets in Christian theology. It usually boils down to whether or not people think God created everything and is therefore, in some way, also responsible for everything in His creation, or if God set things up and just let them spin, creating themselves along the way.

I find that the latter doesn't hold as much weight, scripturally speaking.

Revelation 4:11

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And, yes, I will point out multiple creator theories when they are seen. I don't adhere to such things. But that claim is usually at the heart of these matters i.e. specifically, that Satan created himself.

 

[for_his_glory]

God has set good and evil, life and death, before all of us.

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;

Keep in mind I believe Jesus was spot on, figuratively speaking when He stated that evil thoughts are defiling. I certainly have evil thoughts when temptations come. I recognize these as foreign intrusions. Just as Paul did when describing the working of sin in his flesh as "no longer I" in Romans 7:17-20. Or stating temptation was in his flesh in Gal. 4:14

Even when we "choose life" we do not eliminate good, evil or death.

Some people think all the other facts of good, evil and death go away. They don't. Choosing life puts us in the seat of dominion, but dominion is not located in denial

Yes, God has given us choices to make, but read the full context of the consequences of our choices we make as the devil can not choose our choices for us.

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

We perish by the bad choices we make that draws us away from God.

Joshua 24:15.......................................but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

That is a conscience choice, just as evil is a conscience choice to make.

 

[for_his_glory]

It is Watchman Nee. Not Watchman Lee. Witness Lee was a different person.

Well, I don't think Watchman wrecked any train. And you certainly haven't provided anything to prove otherwise. As I said, or asked, where did he say what you said he did? I could remark concerning it, but I would like to know what exactly he said before I do.

I think you are confusing him with someone else. All his writings that I have read were very good.

Dying for you faith in Christ doesn't necesarily mean you are correct in all your doctrine. But it certainly calls for me to read for myself what he is saying instead of just taking someone's word for it. And I have read much of what he wrote, and found it all to be good.

Quantrill

I'm not going to go into the dispensationalism in which Watchman Nee was a part of. Just saying, reader beware of one's foundational theories.

 

[for_his_glory]

Perhaps you'd like to define what that is.

I might say there could be a quite a difference between what you claim to be "my theology" and what I see in the scriptures.

Case in point Satan as a perfect holy angel and not seeing it that way, but Satan being a perfectly evil wicked angel messenger from the beginning, created to be exactly that by our Creator.

Theodicy is one of the more interesting subsets in Christian theology. It usually boils down to whether or not people think God created everything and is therefore, in some way, also responsible for everything in His creation, or if God set things up and just let them spin, creating themselves along the way.

I find that the latter doesn't hold as much weight, scripturally speaking.

Revelation 4:11

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Colossians 1:16
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

And, yes, I will point out multiple creator theories when they are seen. I don't adhere to such things. But that claim is usually at the heart of these matters i.e. specifically, that Satan created himself.

It is only you that uses the term "holy Satan" as I nor anyone else has used that term. If you can not see in Ezekiel 28:13-15 of this angel that man has given many names to as we call him Satan, then I certainly can not make you see who these verses are speaking of.

 

[for_his_glory]

Satan created himself.

Wow!!! And just how did Satan create himself? Is it not God that does the creating?

 

[for_his_glory]

My view

But no facts!

 

[for_his_glory]

Is there really a difference?

yes, but it seems you are blinded to the difference as you refuse he scriptures you have been given.

 

[for_his_glory]

God created all things.

My view of Satan and his own "seeds" i.e. tempting deceiving lying devils is that they are petty inverse automatic resistors of God, anti-Christ spirits if you prefer, that have access to and operate in the minds of people as negative or evil thought forms.

When God is finished using them, they will be disposed of in the Lake of Fire.

And yes, God can and does use evil for good, because He Is Great Enough to pull that off

Did God not make you in His image when He knitted you together in your mothers womb? Was part of His image evil in what He has created in angels and humans?..............no.

God created everything and saw that is was good in the beginning. The fall of angels and humans is by their own choices turning away from God becoming their own god.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm glad you got to see Satan's entry into Judas. Yes, it's quite entirely obvious that there would be 2 parties standing there, in Judas and acting in Judas. That would be Satan and Judas.

And where did I say anything different then that within our conversations as I even gave the scripture for that.

IMO, I think you are so hard cored with whatever someone is teaching you that you can not see that which has already been written. Views and opinions are fine, but when they blatantly come against the written word of God then there is no room for growth.

 

[Quantrill]

Yeah, well, Judas was not a devil. The devil is the devil.

Jesus said one of you is a devil.

Pick one. Judas or the devil?

I don't have to pick one. The next verse is clear. (John 6:71) "He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

I'm not going to go into the dispensationalism in which Watchman Nee was a part of. Just saying, reader beware of one's foundational theories.

I see. This is why your aversion to Watchman Nee. He was influenced by the Plymouth Bretheren. But there are many that influenced him that were not dispensationalists.

To neglect Watchman Nee just because he leaned toward dispensationalism is to neglect many wonderful spiritual books by him. Another powerful influence upon him was Andrew Murray. I don't know if he was dispensational or not, but he was in the category of Christian mystics, which is not a bad thing. His book 'The Spirit of Christ' should be read by all believers. As well as his many other writings also.

What do you mean 'reader beware of one's foundational theories'? Do you have foundational theories?

Quantrill

 

[eddif]

2 Corinthians 3:14 kjv
14. But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

I will make no comment at this time.

eddif

 

[eddif]

yes, but it seems you are blinded to the difference as you refuse he scriptures you have been given.

I do not know how to support your efforts at this moment. I doubt any two people are exactly the same in thoughts (although we are called to be of one mind).
But
Given your efforts in so many directions I feel for you. Keep on keeping on. The joy of the Lord is our strength. Swing from the chandelier of your mind and rejoice. The heart has Jesus laying on hands.
And
I know full well you wonder where I am coming from. I had a supervisor tell me one time ( I will support you even if you are wrong). I laughed and replied: (you will do exactly what the lawyers tell you to). So I may at some time be at odds with you but I do think you deserve respect for your position and efforts. You owe me nothing for these pitiful comments.

Administration is a spiritual gift.

eddif

 

[for_his_glory]

I see. This is why your aversion to Watchman Nee. He was influenced by the Plymouth Bretheren. But there are many that influenced him that were not dispensationalists.

To neglect Watchman Nee just because he leaned toward dispensationalism is to neglect many wonderful spiritual books by him. Another powerful influence upon him was Andrew Murray. I don't know if he was dispensational or not, but he was in the category of Christian mystics, which is not a bad thing. His book 'The Spirit of Christ' should be read by all believers. As well as his many other writings also.

What do you mean 'reader beware of one's foundational theories'? Do you have foundational theories?

Quantrill

Like I said, I am not getting into this with you.

 

[smaller]

Yes, God has given us choices to make, but read the full context of the consequences of our choices we make as the devil can not choose our choices for us.

Deu 30:15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
Deu 30:16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Deu 30:17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
Deu 30:18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

We perish by the bad choices we make that draws us away from God.

Joshua 24:15.......................................but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

That is a conscience choice, just as evil is a conscience choice to make.

No one, no not one, has ever chosen themselves to be sinless

It has never happened, period.

God Himself in Christ, the sole exception

Mercy is eternal for a reason, because no one else is God and no one else ever will be God

 

[smaller]

It is only you that uses the term "holy Satan" as I nor anyone else has used that term. If you can not see in Ezekiel 28:13-15 of this angel that man has given many names to as we call him Satan, then I certainly can not make you see who these verses are speaking of.

I certainly accept that Satan was an evil-wicked-lying-deceitful-destroying ANGEL- angel meaning messenger

No question about it at all

A perfectly evil entity from the beginning

 

[smaller]

Wow!!! And just how did Satan create himself? Is it not God that does the creating?

Yeah, I think maybe you should go back and re-read that post. Here is my quote from that post:

"-Satan being a perfectly evil wicked angel messenger from the beginning, created to be exactly that by our Creator."

There is only One Creator who created all things, including creating the power of evil and Satan to personify evil

Most Holy Satan claims stem from "those" who think Satan created himself into evil, which is where you picked that up that quote