The Falling Away Must Come First

[Orates]

#4 The Falling Away Comes First

After reading the passages below, I have become convinced that many Christians alive during the end times will fall away when the time of persecution/tribulation comes. I hope I am wrong and, but these passages show otherwise. I attribute the belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture as a major contributor to this falling away. One of these days the final treaty will be signed with Israel and then the Pre-Trib people will hopefully recant their belief. If not then they will have to recant after the Antichrist is revealed (when he requires the world to take his mark). If they do not recant then- there will not be another chance. Some who hold to the Pre-Trib Rapture as a tenet of faith will say in that day- this can’t be the final treaty, or this can’t be the mark- because we haven’t been Raptured yet. These key events may not be obvious. 1.The treaty may look like any other. 2. the Antichrist will take over the hidden underground Holy of Holies- not a rebuilt Jewish Temple, and 3. the Mark will be an invisible tattoo and not an implanted computer chip (which can be dug out and removed vs a permanent tattoo in the skin). When the Pre-Trib Rapture does not occur, that belief will have to be recanted. So it is safer to do it now in these calm times- rather than wait and see when it gets hairy. Remember- a Post Trib or Pre- Wrath belief will never have to be recanted.

Please read the following passages- the warning to us is clear.

2 Thes: 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

False Christians
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

False Prophets
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Endure to the End
Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Falling Away When Persecuted
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while:
for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Five Foolish Christians
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

A sad day that will be....

Orates

 

[Quasar]

The interpretation of the Greek term 'apostasia'

Hi friends -

This is another area within the Scripures that needs serious thought and prayer as to how it should be interpreted from the original.

A translation of the Greek word - 'Apostasia' -

In 2 Thes.2:3 is also - 'departure.'

Most of the English Bible translations use either the word 'apostasy', or 'the rebellion.'

Yet, neither of the latter really fit the text. For example:

"Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come, until the 'departure' occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction."

See how much better that rendering fits the following scripture following, in verse 7.

"For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way."

That's a departure - not an apostasy or a rebellion!

Verse 3 clearly ties in with verse 7 as to the contextual meaning of that entire passage of scripture, when the proper English word for the original Greek is substituted for what most Bibles presently translated it as.

The text of the apostle Paul in 2 Thes.2:3-8 is not about 'falling away,' or an 'apostasy' of the Church, but rather a rapture, the DEPARTURE of the Church. To DEPART and to be with the Lord forever. 1 Thes.4:14-18. To be 'taken out of the way' [vs 7] of the antichrist, the tribulation and the wrath of God.

Consider the following:

The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of 'apostasia,' as 'falling away' [apostasy]. [2 Thes.2:3]. Unfortunately, most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza Bible in departing from translating 'apostasia' as 'departure.' No good reason was ever given.

"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the 'apostasy' comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition." 2 Thes.2:3.

The very text of Paul's message in 2 Thes.2:3 is speaking about the rapture. Because the Greek noun 'apostasia,' usually translated 'apostasy,' is a reference to the rapture and should be translated 'departure.'

The word is a Greek compound of 'apo,' or 'from' and 'istemi,' or 'stand.' Thus it has the core meaning of 'away from' or 'departure,' 'disappearance.'

Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun 'apostasia' is derived supports the basic meaning of 'departure' in the following:

"The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament, of the apostasy from Moses [Acts 21:21], we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have to do with a departure from the faith [Lk.8:13; 1 Tim.4:1; Heb.3:12]. The word is used for departing from iniquity [2 Tim.2:19], from ungodly men [1 Tim.6:5], from the temple [Lk.2:27], from the body [2 Cor.12:8], and from persons [Acts 12:10; Lk.4:13]."

"It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages, that the word meaning of 'apostasia' is defined as 'departure.'" Concludes Daniel Davey.

Paul Lee Tan adds the following:

"What precisely does Paul mean when he says that the 'falling away' must come before the tribulation? The definite article 'the' denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the man of sin. The Greek word for 'falling away,' taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean 'to fall,' as the Greeks have another word for that ['pipto,' I fall; TDI]. The best translation of the word is 'to depart.' The Apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls 'the departure,' and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the Rapture of the Church."

So the word has core meaning of 'departure' and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as a departure from the faith.

The first seven English Bible translations of 'apostasia' all rendered the noun as either 'departure' or 'departing.' They are as follows: Wycliff in AD 1384; Tyndale in AD 1526; Coverdale in AD 1535; Cranmer in AD 1539; Breeches in AD 1576; Beza in AD 1583; and the Geneva in AD 1608.

This supports the notion that the word truly means 'departure.' In fact, Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate in the 4th century renders 'apostasia' with the word 'discessio,' meaning 'departure.' So why did the King James Version depart from the established translation of 'departure?' KJV in AD 1611.

Therefore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate 'apostasia' and create a new word rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of 'apostasia' as 'falling away.' Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating 'apostasia' as 'departure.' No good reason was ever given.

Therefore, if 2 Thes.2:3 were properly translated per the original text, it should read as follows:

"Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the 'departure' comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of perdition." [vs 3].

With that having been stated, the following passages of Scripture are in perfect harmony with the original text in vs 3, using the proper term, 'departure,' instead of 'falling away' or 'apostasy:'

"For the mystery of iniquity does already work; only he who now restrains will continue to restrain until he is taken out of the way." [vs 7].

"And then shall that wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brilliance of His coming." [vs 8].

From the above, we have a much clearer view of the above text referring to the Rapture of the Church, when the antichrist will be revealed and when the tribulation will begin.

Your bro in Christ!

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

Therefore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate 'apostasia' and create a new word rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of 'apostasia' as 'falling away.' Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating 'apostasia' as 'departure.' No good reason was ever given.

I disagree. There is a good reason for it and they (the interpretors) did the right thing. I give you the only other occurrence of the word in the NT.

Acts 21:21:

LITV 21 And they were informed about you, that you teach falling away (apostasia) from Moses, telling all the Jews throughout the nations not to circumcise their children, nor to walk in the customs.

kathchqhsan de peri sou oti apostasian didaskeis apo mwsews tous kata ta eqnh pantas ioudaious legwn mh peritemnein autous ta tekna mhde tois eqesin peripatein

Mr. Young was even more precise:

YLT 21 and they are instructed concerning thee, that apostacy from Moses thou dost teach to all Jews among the nations, saying -- Not to circumcise the children, nor after the customs to walk;

2 Thessalonians 2:3 in Greek:

mh tis umas exapathsh kata mhdena tropon oti ean mh elqh h apostasia prwton kai apokalufqh o anqrwpos ths amartias o uios ths apwleias

Strong's Number: 646

Definition:
a falling away, defection, apostasy

King James Word Usage - Total: 2
to forsake + (575)&version=kjv 1, falling away 1

NAS Word Usage - Total: 2
apostasy 1, forsake 1

Why would it mean one thing in Acts and another in Thess?

These Thessalonians, both the Jews and the Greeks who went to the synagogue, were well exposed to the Old Testament. The Septuagint, which they would be familiar with, always used the word "apostasia" to mean Jewish religious defection and abandonment.

http://www.geocities.com/asterisktom/articapostasy.html

The text of the apostle Paul in 2 Thes.2:3-8 is not about 'falling away,' or an 'apostasy' of the Church, but rather a rapture, the DEPARTURE of the Church. To DEPART and to be with the Lord forever. 1 Thes.4:14-18. To be 'taken out of the way' [vs 7] of the antichrist, the tribulation and the wrath of God.

It is exactly about a defection or falling away from the faith or church or sound doctrine, not a departure OF the Church. That just doesn't fit the context. Why would Paul be telling them to look out for the removal of the Church when it was this very removal that they thought they had missed.
Why bother to tell someone something that has no revelence to them if they are going to be "raptured" anyway. It make no sense.

No, he is telling them not to worry because BEFORE the chuch is removed, two things must happen, a falling away from the Faith and the Man of sin will be revealed.

Jesus was even aware there would be little Faith to be found:

Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

All other explainations miss the mark. Stick with the TR, you can't go wrong. Just ask JM. :wink:

 

[JM]

TR fouth edition, Beza. :D

 

[Vic C.]

TR fouth edition, Beza. :D

Yikes! :o

Consider the following:

The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of 'apostasia,' as 'falling away' [apostasy]. [2 Thes.2:3]. Unfortunately, most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza Bible in departing from translating 'apostasia' as 'departure.' No good reason was ever given.

:

 

[Quasar]

2 Thes.2:3

The Greek term 'apostasia' has several interpretations, which depend upon the text it is used in, including 'falling away,' and 'apostasy.' That is not the case in 2 Thes.2 at all as there isn't a single part of it that has anything at all to do with a 'falling away' of the Church - except the error in interpretation. The subject is about a rapture of the Church, and the reassurance by Paul, to the Thessaloncans, they will not be left behind, to go through the tribulation, when Christ comes for all those who are left alive, when He returns for them.

In the case of 2 Thes.2:3, the term Paul used was DEPARTURE, or TO DEPART, because the entire context of his message is about a rapture, not a falling away of the Church

You allude to only one [Beza] of the original seven English translations that changed their interpretation from DEPARTURE to 'falling away,' as the KJV did in 1611. Meanwhile, from the Greek Septuagint to the Latin Vulgate, in the 4th century, from the original documentation of it by Paul, there are seven who translated it as DEPARTURE.

Which is in complete harmony with 2 Thes.2:7, which states, 'the restrainer will continue to restrain until he is taken out of the way' [Paraphrased]. The "he," is the One Body of Christ by One Spirit, the Church.

Here again are the other seven original sources that interpret apostasia as DEPARTURE.

The first seven English Bible translations of 'apostasia' all rendered the noun as either 'departure' or 'departing.' They are as follows: Wycliff in AD 1384; Tyndale in AD 1526; Coverdale in AD 1535; Cranmer in AD 1539; Breeches in AD 1576; Beza in AD 1583; and the Geneva in AD 1608.

This supports the notion that the word truly means 'departure.' In fact, Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate that he translated from the Greek Septuagint, in the 4th century renders 'apostasia' with the word 'discessio,' meaning 'departure.' So why did the King James Version depart from the established translation of 'departure?' KJV in AD 1611.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[MrVersatile48]

Apo-stasis means to stand against, as well as to fall away from, 'the faith once-for-all delivered to the saints'

In other words, apostates are not those who simply sin - 'he who says he has no sin deceives himself & the truth is not in him' - but they come to the point of opposing the faith & promoting satanic substitues

The spirit of antichrist is increasingly evident now

More Christians were martyred in the 20th century than in all the previous 19 put together: persecution of the saints is part of the multyiplying, intensifying 'birthpains' of Matt 24 etc that serve to bring on the Great Delivery - the instant airlift Rapture rescue of all who love Jesus - per Matt 24:30-31, 1 Corinthians 15:51-58 & 1 Thessalonians 4:13-5:11

What God clearly promises He will fulfil

As for your, 'pre-trib must recant, but post-trib & pre-wrath will never be recanted', the Great Tribulation of Revelation 6, 8, 9, 13 & 16-19, & of Joel 3 & Zechariah 14 IS the Day of the Lord, on which Jesus will 'tread the winepress of the fierceness of the wrath of God', as His righteous judgements are increasingly poured out on Earth

Jesus said that this climax generation will be 'cut short', by said Rapture, 'otherwise no-one would be left alive' - which gives the lie to post-trib Rapture: many of whom will doubless recant after the Rapture, which will be in good time, as per 1 Thess 4:13-5:11, etc

God bless!

Ian

 

[Vic C.]

Delete post please

Cleanup on Page One. :

I got it Q.

 

[Vic C.]

Well, I see I am alone in my understanding of Apostasia. That's ok.

If "we" want to ignore the only other use of the word in Acts as I pointed out, that's ok too. (not for me though) 8-)

 

[Quasar]

The Greek term 'apostasia'

Well, I see I am alone in my understanding of Apostasia. That's ok.

If "we" want to ignore the only other use of the word in Acts as I pointed out, that's ok too. (not for me though) 8-)

You are quite right, Vic, you are alone in your own 'understanding of apostasia.' ;-)

There is obviously a misunderstanding as to the fact that APOSTASIA has several meanings. Such as apostasy, falling away. to depart, etc. The bottom line is that the text it is used in determines which of them is used.

Guess you missed these, who knew the subject of Paul's epistle to the Thessalonicans was about a rapture, not a falling away of the church. They had been given a letter with a forgery of Paul's signature, telling them the Day of the Lord had already come - and Paul, having taught them in His first epistle to them [1 Thes.4:14-18] they would be CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord, before the Day of the Lord [The entire 7 year 70th WEEK of Daniel].

"Don't you remember that when I was with you I used to tell you these things?" 2 Thes.2:5. So Paul assures them the facts about the timing of the rapture, not a falling away. Which takes place as he describes it in 2 Thes.2:3, as the original ms reveal: "Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come [The Day of the Lord] until the DEPARTURE occurs [Being CAUGHT UP in the clouds of the sky to be with the Lord forever] - and THE MAN OF LAWLESSNESS [THE ANTICHRIST] IS REVEALED, the man doomed to destruction."

The timing of the rapture and the APPEARING OF THE ANTICHRIST is in perfect harmony with his triggering the 70th WEEK of Daniel, [Seven years of tribulation] 3.5 years of peace, then when he breaks the covenant in the middle of the WEEK, 3.5 years of the worst conditions this world has ever know, as well as the wrath of God. And in perfect harmony with Rev.6:1-2, the rider of the white horse, the first horseman of the four horseman of the apocalypse.

It is also noteworthy to observe that Paul has referred to the Day of the Lord, to describe the entire seven years of the tribulation, as Daniel does in his description of the 70th and final WEEK of God's decree upon Israel.

The following is from the original ms pertaining to the Greek term, APOSTASIA, supporting the reasons why, it was properly interpreted as DEPARTURE, or TO DEPART.

The first seven English Bible translations of 'apostasia' all rendered the noun as either 'departure' or 'departing.' They are as follows: Wycliff in AD 1384; Tyndale in AD 1526; Coverdale in AD 1535; Cranmer in AD 1539; Breeches in AD 1576; Beza in AD 1583; and the Geneva in AD 1608.

This supports the notion that the word truly means 'departure.' In fact, Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate in the 4th century renders 'apostasia' with the word 'discessio,' meaning 'departure.' So why did the King James Version depart from the established translation of 'departure?' KJV in AD 1611.

2 Thes.2:7-8 confirm vss 3-4, as follow:

For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of His mouth and destroy by the brilliance of His coming."

The ONE who holds back lawlessness, and the HE who will be taken out of the way: Is the One Body of Christ, His Church, through the One Spirit. And then the Antichrist will be revealed, in complete harmony with all of the above.


There isn't a single part of the text Paul wrote about that has anything to do with a 'falling away,' a 'rebellion,' or an 'apostasy' of the church. If there was, then any argument for placing such terms in 2 Thes.2:3 would have credence, but it doesn't.


Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

Hey Q,

You said:

...They had been given a letter with a forgery of Paul's signature, telling them the Day of the Lord had already come - and Paul, having taught them in His first epistle to them [1 Thes.4:14-18] they would be CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord, before the Day of the Lord [The entire 7 year 70th WEEK of Daniel].

Actually, the verse says, "the day of Christ" not "the Day of the Lord". The day of Christ is the Day HE gathers those who are alseep and those who remain alive in HIM. The Day of the Lord is the period of time when God unleashes HIS wrath on an unbelieving world.

The Day of Christ is associated with Jesus' paraousia; The Day of the Lord is associated with HIS Wrath.

C. I. Scoffield states in a footnote in the Oxford NIV Scofield Study Bible, p. 1198:

"The expression 'the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,' identified with His coming (1 Cor 1:7), is the period of blessing for the Church beginning with the rapture. This coming day is referred to as 'the day of the Lord' (1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 1:14), 'the day of Christ Jesus' (Phil 1:6), and 'the day of Christ' (Phil 1:10; 2:16), 'The day of Christ' in all six references in the N.T. is described as relating to the reward and blessing of the Church at the rapture in contrast with the expression 'the day of the Lord which is related to judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and blessing on millennial saints:

http://www.biblestudymanuals.net/day.htm

So knowing that, how could Paul be telling them the day of Christ can't come until the ekklesia is caught up? You might as well be saying, the harpazio can't happen until harpazio takes place first.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day (the day of Christ) shall not come, except there come a falling away first (the day of Christ), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It just doesn't compute.


Hey, did you know, "IT ain't over. 'til it's over"?

Gotta love Yogi.

:wink:

 

[Quasar]

Thread subject

Quote by Vic:

>>>Quote [By Quasar]:
...They had been given a letter with a forgery of Paul's signature, telling them the Day of the Lord had already come - and Paul, having taught them in His first epistle to them [1 Thes.4:14-18] they would be CAUGHT UP to be with the Lord, before the Day of the Lord [The entire 7 year 70th WEEK of Daniel].


Quote by Vic:

Actually, the verse says, "the day of Christ" not "the Day of the Lord". The day of Christ is the Day HE gathers those who are alseep and those who remain alive in HIM. The Day of the Lord is the period of time when God unleashes HIS wrath on an unbelieving world.

The Day of Christ is associated with Jesus' paraousia; The Day of the Lord is associated with HIS Wrath.<<<



The KJV is the only translation you will find "Day of Christ" in 2 Thes.2:2. An annotation in the Scofield 1967 edition states the following: "The theme of 2 Thes. has, unfortunately, been obscured by a mistranslation in the KJV of 2:2 where 'Day of Christ is at hand' should be 'Day of the Lord' is present." Try the NASB or the NIV or the Amplified Bible to check it out.

As for the term PAROUSIA, it refers to an appearing of Jesus, which will take place twice. At the rapture of the Church and at His Second Coming to the earth.

As I'm going to be tied up over the next couple of days, I will not be able to respond very much until the latter part of this wekk. Sorry.

Blessings,

Quasar

 

[Vic C.]

Re: Thread subject

...The KJV is the only translation you will find "Day of Christ" in 2 Thes.2:2.

Not true at all. Here is Green's Literal Translation:

2 Thessalonians 2
2 for you not to be quickly shaken in the mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through speech, nor through letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ has come.

Here is Young's Literal:

2that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;

The deal is I'm using only translations based on the TR, which has it's roots in the Byzantine text. All the translations you mentioned are from the corrupted Westcott/Hort critical text, which is based on the Alexandrian text. That may be ok with you, but not me. I'll take the word for word interpretation ANY DAY! Isn't it funny that most word for word translations are interpreted from the TR?

An annotation in the Scofield 1967 edition states the following: "The theme of 2 Thes. has, unfortunately, been obscured by a mistranslation in the KJV of 2:2 where 'Day of Christ is at hand' should be 'Day of the Lord' is present." Try the NASB or the NIV or the Amplified Bible to check it out.

Not if you held a gun to my head, for the reasons I stated above. Yeah I know, a bit overdramatic on my part. Now, do you realize your Scofield 1967 quote DIRECTLY contradicts Scofield's own words as I posted them?

C. I. Scoffield states in a footnote in the Oxford NIV Scofield Study Bible, p. 1198:

"The expression 'the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,' identified with His coming (1 Cor 1:7), is the period of blessing for the Church beginning with the rapture. This coming day is referred to as 'the day of the Lord' (1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 1:14), 'the day of Christ Jesus' (Phil 1:6), and 'the day of Christ' (Phil 1:10; 2:16), 'The day of Christ' in all six references in the N.T. is described as relating to the reward and blessing of the Church at the rapture in contrast with the expression 'the day of the Lord which is related to judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and blessing on millennial saints:

As for the term PAROUSIA, it refers to an appearing of Jesus, which will take place twice. At the rapture of the Church and at His Second Coming to the earth.

I sort of agree with that, except I am aware we place the harpazio at different places. I also adhere to the literal definition of Parousia, which is an appearance and presence. The harpazio is the appearance, the Second Coming is the actual presence.

More on all this in another post, when I got home from work.

As I'm going to be tied up over the next couple of days, I will not be able to respond very much until the latter part of this week. Sorry.

Blessings,

Quasar

Don't be sorry. We do what we must first. Forums are secondary. :wink:

Peace and God bless,
Vic

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

#4 The Falling Away Comes First

After reading the passages below, I have become convinced that many Christians alive during the end times will fall away when the time of persecution/tribulation comes. I hope I am wrong and, but these passages show otherwise. I attribute the belief in a Pre-Trib Rapture as a major contributor to this falling away. One of these days the final treaty will be signed with Israel and then the Pre-Trib people will hopefully recant their belief. If not then they will have to recant after the Antichrist is revealed (when he requires the world to take his mark). If they do not recant then- there will not be another chance. Some who hold to the Pre-Trib Rapture as a tenet of faith will say in that day- this can’t be the final treaty, or this can’t be the mark- because we haven’t been Raptured yet. These key events may not be obvious. 1.The treaty may look like any other. 2. the Antichrist will take over the hidden underground Holy of Holies- not a rebuilt Jewish Temple, and 3. the Mark will be an invisible tattoo and not an implanted computer chip (which can be dug out and removed vs a permanent tattoo in the skin). When the Pre-Trib Rapture does not occur, that belief will have to be recanted. So it is safer to do it now in these calm times- rather than wait and see when it gets hairy. Remember- a Post Trib or Pre- Wrath belief will never have to be recanted.

Please read the following passages- the warning to us is clear.

2 Thes: 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him. 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

False Christians
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

False Prophets
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Endure to the End
Mat 10:21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Falling Away When Persecuted
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? 11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. 13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. 16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while:
for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

Five Foolish Christians
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

A sad day that will be....

Orates

Orates!

This is great! Someone else preaches what I have been trying to show people for 3 years now! Wow, this is refreshing... :P

 

[Vic C.]

Five Foolish Christians
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept. 6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him. 7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

A sad day that will be....

Orates

Orates!

This is great! Someone else preaches what I have been trying to show people for 3 years now! Wow, this is refreshing... :P

Hi and welcome to the forums and the End Times forum. Looking forward to your contributions here.

This is not specifically addressed to you; I just wanted to throw out my beliefs on the parable of the 10 virgins. This passage takes on much of the charateristics of a typical, traditional Jewish wedding ceremony.

The Jewish marriage took place in three stages over a long period of time. When the couple was still very young, an Engagement was arranged by the parents, sometimes with the help of a "matchmaker".

Second, there was a Betrothal ceremony held at the bride's house. The couple exchanged vows and the groom gave the bride presents. This period lasted for a year or two, but the bride continued to live with her parents. During this time the bride was said to be "betrothed" or "espoused" to the young man.

The Marriage Supper came next. It usually happened at night. The groom and his friends came to the bride's house. She would be wearing a thick veil. She and her friends would accompany the groom and his friends to his father's house or maybe a larger hall where the festivities would take place. A contract was signed.

The bride and groom would spend time together, then the bride would remain by herself for seven days. At the end of the week, the bride would return to the group, remove her veil so that everyone could see her. If the young woman had never been married, the feast would last for seven days. If she were a widow remarrying, it would last for three days.
http://gardenofpraise.com/bibl53s.htm

The part I set in bold reminds me of the final week (seven years) of Daniel's prophecy. It's the remnant of "Israel" that will be redeemed at the end of the "week". They are the Bride, not the Church. The word bride is only mentioned five times in the NT (KJV); four of those times in Revelation. It is mentioned nine times in the OT (KJV). All of them reference to "Israel".

We are the Body of Christ; no one would deny that. My question is this; considering all of what I posted above, how can we be the bride and the Body? We are already redeemed, so unless one believes we are to be redemmed at the end of the week (classic post trib) how can we possibly be both the Body and the Bride? How can the Body of Christ marry the Groom, who IS Christ?

BTW, I am Pre Wrath.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

#4 The Falling Away Comes First

I have become convinced that many Christians alive during the end times will fall away when the time of persecution/tribulation comes. Orates

The problem is finding a gage to use.
Most Bible teachers today refer to a seven year period of time, and call it the great tribulation.

At what point do the 'end times' begin? We are busy trying to figure out what happens moments before and moments after the rapture.
If you look at recent history (The past 100 years) you will see wave after wave of judgment. (Birth pangs)
WWII
The stock market crash
The gangster era
The Great Depression
The Dust Bowl
WWII
Chernobyl (by the way, that Russian word translates to wormwood)
All of these events are birth pangs. I believe that the prophets who wrote of the 'end times' saw all of these events taking place as well as the last seven years, and the last day.
To measure a 'falling away' by the church ~ you need some sort of standard to measure with. Throughout history the church has backslid, had revival, then backslid again. I tend to believe that it is backslid about as far as it ever has, but that just proves my point. Compared to what? What we truly know of the church is what we have experienced in our life time, and what we have read in history books. In the past 50 years we have seen this nation ban God from schools, courtrooms, politics, and the media. If not legally, banned ~ then by consensus. We (The USA) are the greatest free nation in the world. Scripture uses the word lawlessness when describing the last days. Making all sorts of corruption legal seems to cover that.

No real point to my post here (Hopefully I can avoid a debate that way :D )
But as I read the above posts speaking of 'the falling away must come first, I thought of the one last sign that Jesus said to watch for. Watching the news over the past few weeks, it looks to me as if we are close to seeing it happen.

Luke 21:20 ¶ And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Luke 21:27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

Are all of your loved ones saved? Do you want the Lord to give us a little more time to bring in the final harvest?

Psalms 122:6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem: they shall prosper that love thee.

:lilangel:

 

[Orates]

The Final Falling Away

The Falling Away or Apostasy is the final one that occurs after the Antichrist is revealed and requires the world to worship himself by taking his mark. The reason this is a final and great falling away, compared to the past, is because, when professing Christians take the mark to avoid persecution, they have committed the unforgivable sin and are damned with no return.

How can a professing Christian do such a thing? They did the same in the past when they recanted their faith in Jesus to avoid being thrown to the lions! This will be a sad day indeed when Jesus says to those who called Him Lord, Lord- "I never knew you!" Please help me in spreading the word that the falling away is coming first and how to avoid it. Some Christians will keep looking for a Rapture to save them from persecution. They will say in that day- this can't be the Mark. They will not see the signs of the Final Treaty, the Antichrist in the Jewish sanctuary, or an invisible mark. Then when they take the mark that will be it for them. Brother will turn against brother, father against son, and daughter against mother in the "dry wood".

Orates

 

[John the Baptist]

Hi, just simple John here! :fadein:

Hell breaking loose?? (so to speak)
We are in that time now, look around you, read the news, and watch either local or world news! (sure it will & is escalating)
We are going NO WHERE! No rapture.

And the falling away? A New thing?? God say's not so. Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15. So, when the Word of God talks of a falling away, it never means the Revelation 17:5 ones who are not the Virgin candlesticks of Revelation 1:20 (and that is still an mystery?) Notice Revelation 2:5!

We see only twice in history where the candlestick was removed & REPLACED with another, and still had ONLY SEVEN REMAINING! (got that?) 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 calls it an.. or the, FALLING AWAY! Forget individual 'posters'! This was an [WHOLE] 'fold' that FELL AWAY! Look at who fell away the first time! See Matthew 23:38 for the rejection, or total DESOLATION of the whole ex/house/of /God!! (FOLD! Virgin candlestick) Check the K.J. of Amos 5:1-3 for only a remnant left!

And the history has another REPEAT God said, see Revelation 12:17's REMNANT, (and I will tell you up front, that that is not the testimony of an created angel, but of an Christ/GOD!) & Revelation 3:16-17's again SPEWED OUT ONES! But again, the falling away has the whole 'fold' that has fallen away!

Again: Christ asks, WHAT IS NEW? NOTHING NEW UNDER THE SUN HE STATES!

 

[Vic C.]

Please help me in spreading the word that the falling away is coming first and how to avoid it.

Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I'm with you.

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

Dear vic,

This is how I see it. Please look at Revelation 19:7

"Let us be glad and rejoice and give Him glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His wife has made herself ready."

Key: >She made herself ready<

How? By trials and testing and endurance and patience here on earth.

The marriage doesn't take place until "she" meets Him at His coming.

This didn't already happen in heaven as the pre-trib doctrine teaches.

This occurs during/after Revelation 19 as the "Groom" comes out of His chamber with the souls of them who died in Him as He comes to earth to gather the (The Trib tested Saints) and now His wife is complete and ready for the wedding!
Praise God