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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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J
John the Baptist
Guest
John the Baptist said:
******
Hay guys! We BELIEVE the Word of God, right??????? We cannot have it both ways, either Christ was telling the Truth, (which He was) and we do not 'see' it correctly, or else we are making ourselves 'god', which I do not believe is the case? 1/2 of Truth does not make the complete package! See Matthew 4:6 & Christ's rebuke from Deuteronomy 6:16 for the rest of the 2 Timothy 3:16 & Matthew 4:4 'Required' Gospel!
So bottom line is back to square one! We cannot go to square two (The FALLING AWAY) until we get our square head (:wink
rounded rightly!Sure, [we] have got to in this life dump much, sometimes it is easy, like Peter and his three time Vision from God? And here we have it all written down, yet we still even today see Jeremiah 17:5 on this stuff all over the place.
---John
J
JustifiedByFaith
Guest
John the Baptist said:
******
Hay guys! We BELIEVE the Word of God, right??????? We cannot have it both ways, either Christ was telling the Truth, (which He was) and we do not 'see' it correctly, or else we are making ourselves 'god', which I do not believe is the case? 1/2 of Truth does not make the complete package! See Matthew 4:6 & Christ's rebuke from Deuteronomy 6:16 for the rest of the 2 Timothy 3:16 & Matthew 4:4 'Required' Gospel!
So bottom line is back to square one! We cannot go to square two (The FALLING AWAY) until we get our square head (:wink
rounded rightly!Sure, [we] have got to in this life dump much, sometimes it is easy, like Peter and his three time Vision from God? And here we have it all written down, yet we still even today see Jeremiah 17:5 on this stuff all over the place.
---John [/quote:effbf]
Dear John the Baptist,
I am not following you well on this. Could you please re-clarify the question or position you wish to discuss? Thank you
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Quote: Here is what I said. "The above Matthew 24:14 verse had reached it boundaries as was required for the first 'time' requirement. Romans 10:18 & [seconded] in Colossians 1:23"
Matt. 24:14 was quoted, right? Paul was 'inspired' to pen Rom. 10:18 & Colossians 1:23 right?
So did Christ come as He stated in Matt. 24:14? Why not???? OK: I gave the rest of the Everlasting Gospel Required to [be Truth] verses. (from Eccl.)
OK again, :wink: this is 'Inspirational Truth'. And the 70 Year prophecy is also required twice (at least) as is the Falling Away truth.
Now. If it does not happen twice, we need to read the documentation where it is said that it will not. Such as Christ & Paul [both] saying that the END will be cut short!
Did you read the K.J. Eccl. verses??? Look at it this way? If we hold to any 'idea' that cannot pass this Truth, who is the problem with? And when we have held to views, or have written on subjects over & over, that do not stand this Eccl. 'testing' Truth, we must give it up, and have the LOVE to be Led? Romans 8:14
The 70 years of Daniel is FINISHED for the [first time!] Hebrews 6:6 tells of another second time crucifixion of Christ. And.. is there an end time/period? surely! See Leviticus 16:14's 'seven times' for the last work in the Most Holy Place in heaven on the day of FINAL Atonement! See Daniel 12:1-2 for the FINAL 'Time of Trouble'. Yet, are we the ones of Daniel 12:4? I wonder? See again Jeremiah 17:5 on?
---John
Matt. 24:14 was quoted, right? Paul was 'inspired' to pen Rom. 10:18 & Colossians 1:23 right?
So did Christ come as He stated in Matt. 24:14? Why not???? OK: I gave the rest of the Everlasting Gospel Required to [be Truth] verses. (from Eccl.)
OK again, :wink: this is 'Inspirational Truth'. And the 70 Year prophecy is also required twice (at least) as is the Falling Away truth.
Now. If it does not happen twice, we need to read the documentation where it is said that it will not. Such as Christ & Paul [both] saying that the END will be cut short!
Did you read the K.J. Eccl. verses??? Look at it this way? If we hold to any 'idea' that cannot pass this Truth, who is the problem with? And when we have held to views, or have written on subjects over & over, that do not stand this Eccl. 'testing' Truth, we must give it up, and have the LOVE to be Led? Romans 8:14
The 70 years of Daniel is FINISHED for the [first time!] Hebrews 6:6 tells of another second time crucifixion of Christ. And.. is there an end time/period? surely! See Leviticus 16:14's 'seven times' for the last work in the Most Holy Place in heaven on the day of FINAL Atonement! See Daniel 12:1-2 for the FINAL 'Time of Trouble'. Yet, are we the ones of Daniel 12:4? I wonder? See again Jeremiah 17:5 on?
---John
O
Orates
Guest
Not Just Any Falling Away
Many groups, like the 7th Day Adventists, believe that Christiandom has already fallen away, except for themselves that is. They are looking to be persecuted by a future Sunday Worship Law that they think is the Mark of the Beast. This idea of course is ludricous. The Mark is an economic system for buying and selling- not a religious law. A future event- known as the "Falling Away", will result from Christians who refuse to be martyred for their faith by taking the mark of the Antichrist. Are you prepared to join the legion of overcomers from all ages who refuse to deny their faith? These are just a few of the passages that describe the faithful who are Martyred for their faith during the End Times.
Rev 6:9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 7:9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev 14:9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13: And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 15:2: And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3: And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
If the Rapture doesn't save you, are you prepared to face the persecution that is coming for true Christians?- and I don't mean survivalism.
Will 7th Day Adventist recant their notion of the Mark and join with other overcomers? I hope and pray that they will- but the prediction of a great falling away still stands.
The gate is broad to destruction, but exceedingly narrow to salvation.
Orates
Many groups, like the 7th Day Adventists, believe that Christiandom has already fallen away, except for themselves that is. They are looking to be persecuted by a future Sunday Worship Law that they think is the Mark of the Beast. This idea of course is ludricous. The Mark is an economic system for buying and selling- not a religious law. A future event- known as the "Falling Away", will result from Christians who refuse to be martyred for their faith by taking the mark of the Antichrist. Are you prepared to join the legion of overcomers from all ages who refuse to deny their faith? These are just a few of the passages that describe the faithful who are Martyred for their faith during the End Times.
Rev 6:9: And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11: And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Rev 7:9: After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
13: And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14: And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15: Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16: They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17: For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Rev 14:9: And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10: The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11: And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13: And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
Rev 15:2: And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.
3: And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Rev 20:4: And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5: But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6: Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
If the Rapture doesn't save you, are you prepared to face the persecution that is coming for true Christians?- and I don't mean survivalism.
Will 7th Day Adventist recant their notion of the Mark and join with other overcomers? I hope and pray that they will- but the prediction of a great falling away still stands.
The gate is broad to destruction, but exceedingly narrow to salvation.
Orates
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Does anyone BELIEVE GOD in Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15?
If not, then I will just leave you with whatever else is your hearts desire.
---John
If not, then I will just leave you with whatever else is your hearts desire.
---John
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Re: Not Just Any Falling Away
Orates said:
Orates said:
J
John the Baptist
Guest
NO: The answer to your post, is the verse seen in Revelation 12:17! The same shaking! The same results! All through history! And the Mark of the Beast? God has told anyone who believes His Word what the FINAL TEST will [[[AGAIN]]] be!
---John
____
God has told anyone who BELIEVES HIS WORD what the FINAL TEST will [[[AGAIN]]] be!
And what do we hear now??? SILENCE! Matthew 25:5, even Ezekiel 37:1-7!!
---John
____
God has told anyone who BELIEVES HIS WORD what the FINAL TEST will [[[AGAIN]]] be!
And what do we hear now??? SILENCE! Matthew 25:5, even Ezekiel 37:1-7!!
Thread subject
Sorry to be so late in responding to your post, Vic,
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Thread subject
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote by Vic:
>>>Quasar wrote:
...The KJV is the only translation you will find "Day of Christ" in 2 Thes.2:2.
Not true at all. Here is Green's Literal Translation:<<<
Q: Never heard of Green's Literal Translation, and my statement stands as to the KJV standing alone in the translation of 2 Thes.2:2 [except for Green's Literal Translation]. It makes a lot of difference in understanding the timing of the rapture. The Thessalonicans had been told, Christ had already come in a forged letter from Paul, which is "the Day of Christ," leaving them in the "Day of the Lord," the tribulation, as in Joel 28-38. Their concern was, that they had been 'left behind,' contrary to what Paul had taught them in his first letter to them. As in the Amplified Bible:
2 Thessalonians 2:2 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
"2Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here."
Q: The following translation is from "The Message," which was the other Bible that infers the, "The Day of Christ," but proves my point by adding the words, "the day of the Master's arrival has come and gone." Meaning they had been left behind and into the "Day of the Lord."
The Message (MSG)
2 Thessalonians 2
The Anarchist
"1-3Now, friends, read these next words carefully. Slow down and don't go jumping to conclusions regarding the day when our Master, Jesus Christ, will come back and we assemble to welcome him. Don't let anyone shake you up or get you excited over some breathless report or rumored letter from me that the day of the Master's arrival has come and gone. Don't fall for any line like that. "
Quote by Vic:
2 Thessalonians 2
2 for you not to be quickly shaken in the mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through speech, nor through letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ has come.
Here is Young's Literal:
2that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;
The deal is I'm using only translations based on the TR, which has it's roots in the Byzantine text. All the translations you mentioned are from the corrupted Westcott/Hort critical text, which is based on the Alexandrian text. That may be ok with you, but not me. I'll take the word for word interpretation ANY DAY! Isn't it funny that most word for word translations are interpreted from the TR?<<<
Q: You are quite right, Young's Literal Translation does read, "Day of Christ." as four others do as well from a cursory research I did, three of which a various KJV versions. By the same token, there were seventeen that read, "Day of the Lord."
Quote by Vic:
Quote by Quasar:
"An annotation in the Scofield 1967 edition states the following: "The theme of 2 Thes. has, unfortunately, been obscured by a mistranslation in the KJV of 2:2 where 'Day of Christ is at hand' should be 'Day of the Lord' is present." Try the NASB or the NIV or the Amplified Bible to check it out."
Response by Vic:
Not if you held a gun to my head, for the reasons I stated above. Yeah I know, a bit overdramatic on my part. Now, do you realize your Scofield 1967 quote DIRECTLY contradicts Scofield's own words as I posted them?
Quote:
C. I. Scoffield states in a footnote in the Oxford NIV Scofield Study Bible, p. 1198:
"The expression 'the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,' identified with His coming (1 Cor 1:7), is the period of blessing for the Church beginning with the rapture. This coming day is referred to as 'the day of the Lord' (1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 1:14), 'the day of Christ Jesus' (Phil 1:6), and 'the day of Christ' (Phil 1:10; 2:16), 'The day of Christ' in all six references in the N.T. is described as relating to the reward and blessing of the Church at the rapture in contrast with the expression 'the day of the Lord which is related to judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and blessing on millennial saints:<<<
Q: There is no argument as to Scofield's belief in the Day of Christ being the day He appears to rapture His church, and that of the "Day of the Lord" as the tribulation. You missed the point. Scofield's annotation about 2 Thes.2:2 means exactly what he said, the KJV refers to the passage as that of Jesus appearing for His Church, instead of the facts as they stood, the Thessalonicans left to go through the "Day of the Lord," believing the "Day of Christ" had come and gone.
The fact of the matter is, it could be either way without making much difference, except for the bottom line, the Thessalonicans left to go through the trib when they had been taught they would not do so in Paul's first letter to them.
See the following sites about English Bible translations and their history:
http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Eng ... ations.htm
http://www.bible,org/page.asp?page_id=1791
Quote by Vic:
Quote by Quasar:
"As for the term PAROUSIA, it refers to an appearing of Jesus, which will take place twice. At the rapture of the Church and at His Second Coming to the earth."
I sort of agree with that, except I am aware we place the harpazio at different places. I also adhere to the literal definition of Parousia, which is an appearance and presence. The harpazio is the appearance, the Second Coming is the actual presence.
More on all this in another post, when I got home from work.<<<
Q: The PAROUSIA/HARPAZIO, which means the same, will take place immediately preceding the trib and immediately following. Both times, as in the rapture, seen in Jn.14"2-3, 28 and 1 Thes.4:14-18, in the clouds of the sky, and at His Second Coming to establish His kingdom here on the earth, in Zech.14:4-5 and Rev.19:14.
Blessings
Quasar
Sorry to be so late in responding to your post, Vic,
Posted: Mon Jul 31, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Thread subject
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Quote by Vic:
>>>Quasar wrote:
...The KJV is the only translation you will find "Day of Christ" in 2 Thes.2:2.
Not true at all. Here is Green's Literal Translation:<<<
Q: Never heard of Green's Literal Translation, and my statement stands as to the KJV standing alone in the translation of 2 Thes.2:2 [except for Green's Literal Translation]. It makes a lot of difference in understanding the timing of the rapture. The Thessalonicans had been told, Christ had already come in a forged letter from Paul, which is "the Day of Christ," leaving them in the "Day of the Lord," the tribulation, as in Joel 28-38. Their concern was, that they had been 'left behind,' contrary to what Paul had taught them in his first letter to them. As in the Amplified Bible:
2 Thessalonians 2:2 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
"2Not to allow your minds to be quickly unsettled or disturbed or kept excited or alarmed, whether it be by some [pretended] revelation of [the] Spirit or by word or by letter [alleged to be] from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has [already] arrived and is here."
Q: The following translation is from "The Message," which was the other Bible that infers the, "The Day of Christ," but proves my point by adding the words, "the day of the Master's arrival has come and gone." Meaning they had been left behind and into the "Day of the Lord."
The Message (MSG)
2 Thessalonians 2
The Anarchist
"1-3Now, friends, read these next words carefully. Slow down and don't go jumping to conclusions regarding the day when our Master, Jesus Christ, will come back and we assemble to welcome him. Don't let anyone shake you up or get you excited over some breathless report or rumored letter from me that the day of the Master's arrival has come and gone. Don't fall for any line like that. "
Quote by Vic:
2 Thessalonians 2
2 for you not to be quickly shaken in the mind, nor to be disturbed, neither through a spirit, nor through speech, nor through letter, as through us, as if the Day of Christ has come.
Here is Young's Literal:
2that ye be not quickly shaken in mind, nor be troubled, neither through spirit, neither through word, neither through letters as through us, as that the day of Christ hath arrived;
The deal is I'm using only translations based on the TR, which has it's roots in the Byzantine text. All the translations you mentioned are from the corrupted Westcott/Hort critical text, which is based on the Alexandrian text. That may be ok with you, but not me. I'll take the word for word interpretation ANY DAY! Isn't it funny that most word for word translations are interpreted from the TR?<<<
Q: You are quite right, Young's Literal Translation does read, "Day of Christ." as four others do as well from a cursory research I did, three of which a various KJV versions. By the same token, there were seventeen that read, "Day of the Lord."
Quote by Vic:
Quote by Quasar:
"An annotation in the Scofield 1967 edition states the following: "The theme of 2 Thes. has, unfortunately, been obscured by a mistranslation in the KJV of 2:2 where 'Day of Christ is at hand' should be 'Day of the Lord' is present." Try the NASB or the NIV or the Amplified Bible to check it out."
Response by Vic:
Not if you held a gun to my head, for the reasons I stated above. Yeah I know, a bit overdramatic on my part. Now, do you realize your Scofield 1967 quote DIRECTLY contradicts Scofield's own words as I posted them?
Quote:
C. I. Scoffield states in a footnote in the Oxford NIV Scofield Study Bible, p. 1198:
"The expression 'the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,' identified with His coming (1 Cor 1:7), is the period of blessing for the Church beginning with the rapture. This coming day is referred to as 'the day of the Lord' (1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 1:14), 'the day of Christ Jesus' (Phil 1:6), and 'the day of Christ' (Phil 1:10; 2:16), 'The day of Christ' in all six references in the N.T. is described as relating to the reward and blessing of the Church at the rapture in contrast with the expression 'the day of the Lord which is related to judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and blessing on millennial saints:<<<
Q: There is no argument as to Scofield's belief in the Day of Christ being the day He appears to rapture His church, and that of the "Day of the Lord" as the tribulation. You missed the point. Scofield's annotation about 2 Thes.2:2 means exactly what he said, the KJV refers to the passage as that of Jesus appearing for His Church, instead of the facts as they stood, the Thessalonicans left to go through the "Day of the Lord," believing the "Day of Christ" had come and gone.
The fact of the matter is, it could be either way without making much difference, except for the bottom line, the Thessalonicans left to go through the trib when they had been taught they would not do so in Paul's first letter to them.
See the following sites about English Bible translations and their history:
http://catholic-resources.org/Bible/Eng ... ations.htm
http://www.bible,org/page.asp?page_id=1791
Quote by Vic:
Quote by Quasar:
"As for the term PAROUSIA, it refers to an appearing of Jesus, which will take place twice. At the rapture of the Church and at His Second Coming to the earth."
I sort of agree with that, except I am aware we place the harpazio at different places. I also adhere to the literal definition of Parousia, which is an appearance and presence. The harpazio is the appearance, the Second Coming is the actual presence.
More on all this in another post, when I got home from work.<<<
Q: The PAROUSIA/HARPAZIO, which means the same, will take place immediately preceding the trib and immediately following. Both times, as in the rapture, seen in Jn.14"2-3, 28 and 1 Thes.4:14-18, in the clouds of the sky, and at His Second Coming to establish His kingdom here on the earth, in Zech.14:4-5 and Rev.19:14.
Blessings
Quasar
Vic C.
Member
Welcome back Q. A lot of posting has gone on in your absence.
I just want to make one clarification and I hope that JM can clear this up for us.
My contentions are that Scofield was long dead when this (below) was published:
You said:
Quote: An annotation in the Scofield 1967 edition states the following: "The theme of 2 Thes. has, unfortunately, been obscured by a mistranslation in the KJV of 2:2 where 'Day of Christ is at hand' should be 'Day of the Lord' is present." Try the NASB or the NIV or the Amplified Bible to check it out.
I said:
Quote: C. I. Scoffield states in a footnote in the Oxford NIV Scofield Study Bible, p. 1198:
"The expression 'the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,' identified with His coming (1 Cor 1:7), is the period of blessing for the Church beginning with the rapture. This coming day is referred to as 'the day of the Lord' (1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 1:14), 'the day of Christ Jesus' (Phil 1:6), and 'the day of Christ' (Phil 1:10; 2:16), 'The day of Christ' in all six references in the N.T. is described as relating to the reward and blessing of the Church at the rapture in contrast with the expression 'the day of the Lord which is related to judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and blessing on millennial saints
________________________________________________________________________
Scofield died in 1921, so I question whether or not this (what you quoted) was actually his thoughts. Jason, (JM) knows more about this than I, so I hopes he chimes in. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
I just want to make one clarification and I hope that JM can clear this up for us.
My contentions are that Scofield was long dead when this (below) was published:
You said:
Quote: An annotation in the Scofield 1967 edition states the following: "The theme of 2 Thes. has, unfortunately, been obscured by a mistranslation in the KJV of 2:2 where 'Day of Christ is at hand' should be 'Day of the Lord' is present." Try the NASB or the NIV or the Amplified Bible to check it out.
I said:
Quote: C. I. Scoffield states in a footnote in the Oxford NIV Scofield Study Bible, p. 1198:
"The expression 'the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,' identified with His coming (1 Cor 1:7), is the period of blessing for the Church beginning with the rapture. This coming day is referred to as 'the day of the Lord' (1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 1:14), 'the day of Christ Jesus' (Phil 1:6), and 'the day of Christ' (Phil 1:10; 2:16), 'The day of Christ' in all six references in the N.T. is described as relating to the reward and blessing of the Church at the rapture in contrast with the expression 'the day of the Lord which is related to judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and blessing on millennial saints
________________________________________________________________________
Scofield died in 1921, so I question whether or not this (what you quoted) was actually his thoughts. Jason, (JM) knows more about this than I, so I hopes he chimes in. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Just one 'honest' question. Do any others here on the site think that 'some' threads are not starting to sound like the Catholic Arm of Flesh TRADITION???
---John
---John
O
Orates
Guest
Info on the 7th Day Adventists
Here is a great link to the beliefs of the 7th Day Adventist for anyone who might be interested in their viewpoints. Many times on prophecy sites, they will take over, attacking others- especially Catholics- who they have a special hatred. Some classify them as a cult, but read the info in the link before you decide.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s18.html
From the website:
...our opinion that the Seventh-day Adventist church is, theologically, a cult of Christinaity. This is due to the movement's continued promotion of doctrines that are contrary to the gospel and unorthodox in nature
As noted below there are various factions with the SDA, ranging from those who wish the movement would fully enter into the 'evangelical mainstream,' while others prefer to hold on to various heresies.
Our view is that Seventh-day Adventist who are unhappy with the movement's unbiblical teachings should leave and renounce Seventh-day Adventism, and instead join a Biblical church instead.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian apologists and countercult experts disagree on whether or not Seventh-day Adventism (SDA) should be classified as, theologically, a cult of Christianity.
Some state that while SDA includes a number of doctrines that are outside the mainstraim of historic Christian theology, Seventh-day Adventists do accept the essential doctrines of the Christian faith and should thus be considered Christians. For example, the late Walter Martin, founder of the Christian Research Institute said,
...it is perfectly possible to be a Seventh-day Adventists and be a true follower of Jesus Christ despite heterodox concepts...
Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults (Bethany House, Minneapolis, Minnesota), Updated edition 1997, p.517. (Note: See also this interview with Walter Martin.
This is still the position taken by today's Christian Research Institute:
Though several capable Christian scholars (e.g. Anthony Hoekema, J.K. van Baalen, John Gerstner) have concluded that SDA is a non-Christian cult system, CRI has continued to assert that this is not the case. We take this position based on the content of the doctrine which was stated in an official SDA publication (1957) entitled Questions on Doctrine.
[...]
Since SDA does accept the foundational doctrines of historic Christianity (The Trinity, Christ's true deity, His bodily resurrection, etc.) we do not believe that it should be classified as a non-Christian cult.
[...]
This does not mean that we endorse the entire theological structure of SDA, since a portion of it is definitely out of the mainstream of historic Christian theology (e.g. Sabbatarianism, conditional immorality or soul sleep, annihiliation of the wicked). Though we would adamantly disagree with Adventists regarding these above mentioned doctrines, it should be added that one could hold these views and remain a believing Christian. In other words, these doctrines do not secure or necessarily inhibit salvation.
Source: Seventh-day Adventism">Christian Research Institute statement on SDA
Others point out that SDA also also includes teachings that are contrary to the gospel, and are unorthodox in nature.
Historically, evangelicals have had difficulty defining and categorizing SDA. Much SDA doctrine is biblically orthodox. Within its ranks are many true Christians, some even in positions of prominence. At various points in its history, most notably in the 1888 General Conference, the SDA church has been shaken by the biblical gospel. In the 1970s this became quite intense (Se: Paxton, Geoffrey, J., The Shaking of Adventism). Unfortunately, it produced a polarization. The church administrators generally became more entrenched in the unorthodox positions of traditional SDA, while some pastors and even whole congregations left or were asked to leave the SDA church ("From Controversy to Crisis," CRI Journal, Vol. 11, No. 1, pp. 9–14). In official publications the SDA church continues to defend Ellen White legends, and maintain there was no difference in the degree of inspiration she received from that received by Bible writers (Review & Herald, 4 October 1928, p. 11; "Source of Final Appeal," Adventist Review, 3 June 1971, pp. 4–6; G. A. Irwin, Mark of the Beast, p. 1; "The Inspiration and Authority of the Ellen G. White Writings," Adventist Review, 15 July 1982, p. 3; Ministry, October 1981, p. 8; see also, Judged by the Gospel, pp. 125–30). In their June, 2000, General Conference they voted to more aggressively affirm and support the "Spirit of Prophecy through the ministry of Ellen White"(Adventist Today, [online: July 2000] ). They also teach a number of other doctrines clearly irreconcilable with the biblical gospel (see "Doctrine," below). So long as these things continue, evangelicals must persist in questioning the status of the SDA church organization in Christianity, and much more, her claim to be God’s only true, end-time "Remnant Church."
[...]
SDA teachings most clearly contrary to the gospel and unorthodox in nature are its insistence on water baptism as an essential prerequisite to salvation, its teaching about the end time significance of sabbath observance to identification of true believers, and its doctrine of the Investigative Judgement.
Source: Watchman Fellowship profile of SDA
In effect, Seventh-day Adventism's doctrines span the range from orthodox through aberrant, heterodox, sub-orthodox and heretical.
For this reason, the publishers of Apologetics Index advise Christians not to get involved in Seventh-day Adventism, and urges those who are already part of the SDA church to instead seek out a church that teaches sound, biblical theology.
There also is a lot of confusion among Seventh-day Adventist themselves. Their problems are compounded by the fact that over the past two decades, deep divisions or factions have developed within the SDA. The Christian Research Institute states:
Those who follow Adventism closely know that the last two decades have been characterized by a deep internal conflict which has divided the denomination and left many Adventist [sic] disillusioned. Today, there are various divisions and factions within SDA. Some wish that Adventism would fully enter into the evangelical mainstream, while maintaining certain Adventist distinctives. Others, the more traditional or fundamentalist Adventists often reject portions of Question on Doctrine and seek to hold on to several heresies which arose early in the Adventist movement, such as the investigative judgement, the sinful nature of Christ, and viewing Ellen G. White as the infallible interpreter of Scripture. It is the division of Adventism, who often refer to themselves as "the remnant church," or God's exclusive agent, that CRI would regard as being cultic. Some within this camp would anathematize all of Protestantism, arguing that as Sunday-keepers they will receive the mark of the beast just prior to Christ's second coming. Admisttedly, this is the extreme part of SDA, but nevertheless well-represented.
The crisis that exists within SDA today essentially centers around the investigative judgment, an unbiblical doctrine which severely compromises if not outright denies the biblical doctrine of justification by faith. Second only to the investigative judgment issue is the all-encompassing question of the inspiration and authority of the writings of Ellen G. white. The controversy which has raged regarding the writings of Mrs. White has undoubtedly shaken the entire structure of SDA.
It is out sincere hope that this 5 million member church body, which has historically been a mixture of orthodox and heretical doctrine, will move toward a more soundly biblical position and away from the doctrinal errors it has held in the past. It is our hope that the leadership of SDA will lead its people out of all forms of legalism and into the liberty that results from being justified by God's grace through faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9).
Source: Seventh-day Adventism
Discernment ministry Watchman Fellowship notes:
SDA teachings most clearly contrary to the gospel and unorthodox in nature are its insistence on water baptism as an essential prerequisite to salvation, its teaching about the end time significance of sabbath observance to identification of true believers, and its doctrine of the Investigative Judgement.
(...)
Other distinctive SDA teachings include vegetarianism and other ''health'' issues, and the doctrine of ''soul sleep,'' a misnomer for the belief that between death and resurrection one is essentially non-existent except in the memory of God. This is definitely aberrant from the Bible, but does not conflict the gospel. Much of the SDA health message may actually be helpful. But when, as is often the case, spiritual stigma is attached to non-observance of its asceticism, then the gospel is compromised (Gal. 2:11-16).
(...)
Even when speaking of being saved by the righteousness of Christ, Adventist writers refer to imparted righteousness, seldom to the biblical concept of imputed righteousness. Calling it ''Christ's righteousness,'' while insisting on the believer's perfection of character as a prerequisite to salvation, is at worst a thinly veiled works salvation, or at best an attempt to mix grace and works, something the Bible says is impossible to do (Rom. 11:6). Mrs. White's words are crystal clear - one will not be forgiven till all sins are eradicated from one's life and one's character is perfected. Precisely the same heresy is found (besides many others) in Mormonism. It is not the salvation by grace alone through faith alone offered in the Bible.
The error is compounded by the teaching that this latter day 1844 event must be believed in to exercise the proper faith necessary to be saved. When Jesus said on the cross, ''It is finished, '' i.e. completed, paid in full, it cannot be that there is yet another salvation event more than 1800 years later, just as essential to salvation as Christ's death on the cross, in which one must believe in order to be saved. This is clearly ''another gospel'' (Gal. 1:6-9).
[...more...]
Seventh-day Adventist Church Profile
Even Seventh-day Adventists themselves understand that certain things set them apart from historical Christianity:
In a move almost certain to invite the scrutiny of evangelical apologists, the 57th General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church voted July 2 ''to intensify efforts to inform all church members, especially young members, about the gift of prophecy through the ministry of Ellen G. White.''
White, who was one of the leading figures in the founding of the church, has remained a controversial figure in Adventism since her death in 1915. While describing her own writings as ''the lesser light'' leading to the ''greater light'' of the Bible, the promotion of her writings by the church has stirred charges of cultism against the group.
According to a report by the Adventist News Network, several delegates registered discomfort with the resolution: "Is there any resolution with similar wording that deals with the Bible?" asked Jurrien den Hollander, an Adventist pastor from the Netherlands. Hollander's motion for such a resolution was voted and referred to committee.
And, said Don C. Schneider, a 57-year-old Adventist leader from Berrien Springs, Mich., who was just elected to head the church's North American Division, while some outside the group may question the resolution's meaning, Adventist church leaders line up behind the Bible as their source of doctrine.
"There's a very clear understanding here that Seventh-day Adventists believe in the Bible, and our faith comes out of the Bible," Schneider told CT in an interview. "There's no question among the group here."
Schneider, who had been in charge of one of church activities in Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, and Wisconsin, added that he would gladly explain the group's position to any apologists or others who have questions.
"I'd be most pleased to tell anyone about my priorities of the Bible ahead of anyone else," he said.
Mark Kellner, Adventist Church Reaffirms 'Gift of Prophecy', Christianity Today, July 7, 2000 (Author is a Seventh-day Adventist)
(NOTE: Mark Kellner - who authored the above-quoted article some 30 months before he became the assistant director for news and information for the SDA's General Conference Communications Department - wants to make sure people read his entire article at the URL provided. He has been made aware of the fact that - as a matter of policy - Apologetics Index is specifically designed to encourage indepth research.
As an aside: previously, the quote shown above was shorter, which led Mr. Kellner to ask us to quote more - and to complain to Christianity Today that we quoted too much...)
It is, of course, always good to see people 'line up behind the Bible as their source of doctrine.' But Jan Paulsen, president of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, shows that the official line is quite different - emphasizing both the Bible and the writings of Ellen G. White:
A further word needs to be said about our being "loyal to our heritage and to our identity." Some would have us believe that there have been significant shifts in recent times in regard to doctrines that historically have been at the heart of Seventh-day Adventism.
Take specifically our understanding of judgment and Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary and the prophetic messages in which these teachings are contained. Some are suggesting that since the 1980 (Glacier View) meetings, the very teachings that the church affirmed that year at those meetings have been abandoned, and that the church has essentially moved to accept the very positions it rejected then. Such a claim is a distortion of reality, and nothing could be further from the truth. The historic sanctuary message, based on Scripture and supported by the writings of Ellen White, continues to be held to unequivocally. And the inspired authorities on which these and other doctrines are based, namely the Bible supported by the writings of Ellen White, continue to be the hermeneutical foundation on which we as a church place all matters of faith and conduct. Let no one think that there has been a change of position in regard to this.
Source: Perspectives on Issues Facing the World Seventh-day Adventist Church, by Jan Paulsen, president of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, Adventist Review, from comments made at the May, 2002 SDA General Conference. Emphasis added by Apologetics Index.
Thus officially, Seventh-day Adventists rely on what they consider to be the 'inspired authorities', here identified as 'the Bible supported by the writings of Ellen White.'
The SDA's reverence for Ellen G. White is problematic, to say the least:
Ellen White never held official title as the head of the church, but was one of its founders and acknowledged spiritual leader. She rather disingenuously declined to claim the title of "prophet," calling herself a "messenger" instead (Damsteegt, P.G., et. al., Seventh-day Adventists Believe. . ., p. 224). But she claimed to have the "spirit of prophecy," and that her messages were direct from God for the guidance and instruction of the church. With her knowledge and consent others called her a prophet, and even "the Spirit of Prophecy" (Barnett, Maurice, Ellen G. White & Inspiration, pp. 5–17). Having only a third grade education, Ellen White said for years she was unable to read, bolstering the claim that her beautiful prose was inspired by God. However, it has been discovered that she not only read, but plagiarized other Christian authors throughout virtually all her writings. The sad facts of this matter have been thoroughly and indisputably established in several books. (e.g., see; Rea, Walter, The White Lie; and Judged by the Gospel, pp. 361–83). Ellen White died in 1915 at age eighty-eight.
Source: Watchman Fellowship profile of SDA
Richard Kyle, an evangelical Christian writing from the perspective of a historian in his largely un-critical book ''The Religious Fringe: A History Of Alternative Religions In America,'' writes:
Whether the Seventh-day Adventists are a sect, a cult or a denomination is a matter of intense controversy. Some evangelical scholars have insisted they that are cultic. Others have claimed that they are not. Some scholars have reviewed the institutional developments of the Seventh-day Adventists and asked whether this onetime sect has now become a denomination.
This study will regard Seventh-day Adventism as a sect. To be sure, they possess some cultic characteristics. The Seventh-day Adventists have added a significant number of new and deviant teachings to the Christian tradition. They uplift a prophetic teacher, Ellen G. White, and come close to making her teachings a "third testament." Some of the prophetic positions and their teachings on the ''Investigative Judgment'' have pushed at the boundaries of Christian orthodoxy. In particular, the Investigative Judgment doctrine, which diminishes the work of Christ on the cross by emphasizing his continuing atoning work, stretches the limits of orthodoxy. The Seventh-day Adventists maintain some other beliefs and practices that give them a pronounced sectarian character, not only in the nineteenth century but also in the late twentieth. In particular, their maintenance of the sabbath and rigid dietary practices separate them form most of Christian society.
Richard Kyle, The Religious Fringe: A History Of Alternative Religions In America. InterVarsity Press, Ill. 1993. p. 150-151.
The publishers of Apologetics Index consider Seventh-day Adventism to be a cult of Christianity, due to its adherence to un-biblical and extra-biblical doctrines and practices, as well as the movement's failure to repent from its reliance on the works of Ms. Ellen G. White.
- The Clear Word Bible -
Note: Regarding the Clear Word Bible, referred to in the articles below, SDAnet declares:
''Out of his personal devotional life and study of the Scriptures Dr. Jack Blanco, chairman of the religion department at Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists in Tennessee, produced his own paraphrase of the New Testament. He undertook this project at his own initiative and was not commissioned to do so by any committee or administrator of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Though it was printed by the Review and Herald Publishing Association the issue of officially endorsing it has never come up in any church council. As such, it represents the effort of an individual Seventh-day Adventist to make the Scriptures more readable for himself and for those who choose to read it. As a paraphrase it is appropriate for ones personal devotional study. For detailed doctrinal Bible study the serious student will choose to use a more literal translation of the original languages.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church does not limit the various meaningful avenues through which its members study the Scriptures and we would hope that Dr. Blanco's significant personal effort would contribute to this purpose as well. Those who read it prayerfully should receive a blessing from it, just as they do from other paraphrases of the Bible. This Bible should in no way be considered an official Seventh-day Adventist Bible, nor did Dr. Blanco intend for it to be considered as such.''
Endorsement by Pastor Robert Folkenberg, at SDAnet
However, another statement at the site shows the Clear Word Bible, a paraphrase that includes the teachings of Ellen G. White, is widely used within the Seventh-day Adventist churches:
The introduction suggests that it is not for public reading in churches,etc., but what we are hearing suggests that it is already getting a fairly wide usage for that purpose, Sabbath School lessons, church school Bible classes, etc. IT has been advertised at least twice with a full-color full-page advertisement on the back of the Adventist Review, which includes endorsements from the General Conference president, Richard Davisson of Andrews University, and others. (These endorsements also appear on the back jacket of the book).
Clear Word ''Bible'' (sic), SDAnet
The SDAnet site also includes a letter from David Newman, editor of Ministry magazine (an SDA publication), citing his reservations regarding the Clear Word Bible:
(...) He makes it clear in the first paragraph of his Preface that "This is not a new translation but a paraphrase of the Scriptures. It is not intended for in-depth study or for public reading in churches." Unfortunately most people do not read prefaces so this very important information will be lost. Already I am hearing reports of it being used in the pulpit and as a textbook in teaching religion.
Second the author misunderstands the meaning of the word "paraphrase." A paraphrase is not a loose rendering of someone elses' words with added commentary. A paraphrase whether you use the dictionary definition or the definition used in active listening simply means restating the words of another in your own words without adding to or subtracting from the original meaning.
A cursory examination of the Clear Word Bible reveals the prolific addition of many ideas not found in Scripture.
Thirdly, where Scripture is ambiguous the author removes the ambiguities. One is left not having to make hardly any interpretations for him or herself. The author has done it for you. God evidently intended that each reader struggle with the text and decide personally how to resolve these ambiguities and tensions. Two quick examples come to mind. In 1 Cor. 15:29 we find the difficult phrase baptized for the dead. The author resolves the difficulty by telling us that being baptized in the hope of seeing dead loved ones is meaningless if you do not believe in the resurrection. Revelation 1:10 no longer has us puzzling over which day of the week the Lord's day is. The author tells us that it is the Sabbath.
Fourthly, the author has intertwined so much of Ellen White into his commentary that the general effect has been to canonize Ellen White. The author adds to Scripture in Genesis 2:25 by following Ellen White and saying that Adam and Eve were clothed with a garment of light. Daniel 8:14 is now clear that the judgment began after 2300 prophetic years.
Fifthly, the title chosen for this work is most unfortunate. This is not a Bible. It is a personal commentary on Scripture but it is not the Bible. Yet the title clearly identifies it as a Bible. It is really a specialized commentary on the Bible.
Sixthly, while the author says it is a paraphrase the format inside is not that of a paraphrase but that of the King James Bible. While most modern versions format by paragraph this "Bible" is formatted verse by verse so that it clearly looks like a traditional bible.
Seventh, I fear what our critics will say when they find how much Ellen White has contributed to this ''bible'' without any credit being given to her at all. It would be interesting to find out what percentage of this work owes itself to Ellen White.
[...more...]
A Letter From David Newman, Editor of Ministry Magazine at SDAnet.
The Clear Word Bible: Is It The Word Of God? (Contra) By Dale Ratzlaff and Verle Streifling. Watchman Fellowship examines the SDA's Clear Word Bible: "The many changes made to the biblical text in the Clear Word Bible are ultimately destructive to the integrity of God's Word."
Seventh-day Adventists are Tampering with the Word of God (Contra) By Dale Ratzlaff
The Clear Word Bible (Contra) by Gary Mayo
Clear Word Bible Examples of where Ellen G. White's teachings were inserted into the ''paraphrase.''
- Articles -
Facts Seventh-day Adventists Won't Tell You At Their Seminars (Contra) ''SDA's often make every effort to appear ''evangelical'', joining in with inter-ministry groups and trying to "blend in" with the Christian community''
Seventh-day Adventism Position statement of the Christian Research Institute
Seventh-day Adventism Profile by Watchman Fellowship
Seventh-day Adventists and the US courts: road signs along the rout of a denomiationalizing sect. by Ronald Lawson, in the Journal of Church & State, June 1, 1998: "The changing participation patterns of Seventh-day Adventists in the U.S. courts are therefore excellent indicators of shifts over time in the level of tension between Adventism and the surrounding society. They thus represent road signs along its route from sect towards denomination."
Should Christians Keep The Sabbath? (Contra)
Walter Martin Interview "Walter Martin, Christianity's cult-watcher discusses Adventism in trouble," from Adventist Currents, July, 1983.
- Books: Online -
Cast Out For The Cross Of Christ by Albion Ballenger
Sabbatarianism Re-Examined Robert D. Brinsmead, Editor
Seventh-day Adventism and the Writings of Ellen G. White by J. Mark Martin (see the "7th Day Adventism - What You Should Know" site.
Seventh-day Adventism Renounced by D.M. Canright
- Multimedia -
An Evangelical Adventist? 6 messages by pastor J. Mark Martin (Requires RealAudio) The series can also be ordered on cassette tape. Part of the "7th Day Adventism - What You Should Know" site.
The Spirit Behind The Church (Video)
For those who may agree or for those who strongly disagree, viewers of this documentary will find it a most fascinating exploration into the cultic aspects of the teachings of Ellen G. White. Recommended for Christians who seek genuine answers based on the best scholarship and firm adherence to the truths of God's word.
Dr. James Kennedy, Ph.D., quoted at The Spirit Behind The Church
This video shows beyond all doubt that Ellen G. White meets all the qualifications of a false prophet. This is done with historical accuracy and heavy primary documentation. What is shown as well from the writings of the Adventist Church, is that the authoritative teachings cannot be changed and challenged. This included law keeping for salvation (conditional salvation). Also documented is the Adventist propensity for altering and changing Scripture itself. This is a video that needs to be seen not only by individuals but needs to be shown in churches as well.
[...more...]
G.R.Fisher (Personal Freedom Outreach), quoted at The Spirit Behind The Church
- News Database -
Items added after August, 2002:
» Religion News Blog News Collection, various sources
Older Items:
» Database of archived news items
(Includes items added between Oct. 25, 1999 and Jan. 31, 2002. See about this database)
Older item not in the searchable database: (Sep 8, 1999) Task Force Considers Recruiting On Campus [SDA joins other cults in lawsuit against Task Force study on Cults]
- Overview/Profile -
Adventists (Neutral) Entry in the Encyclopedia Britannica, includes a look at the sect's history and beliefs
Seventh-day Adventists Church Profile (Contra) by Watchman Fellowship, representing the evangelical Christian point of view.
- See Also -
» 3ABN - Three Angels Broadcasting Network
» Branch Davidians (a sect of Seventh-day Adventism)
- Sites -
7th Day Adventism - What You Should Know (Contra) The site is operated by pastor J. Mark Martin (Calvary Chapel), who grew up in SDA. It includes clear overviews and refutations of SDA doctrine, audio message (listen via RealAudio, or order the tapes), and a thorough bibliography.
J. Mark Martin is senior pastor of Calvary Community Church in Phoenix, a Calvary Chapel. Pastor Mark received a B.A. in theology from Pacific Union College in Angwin, California and for six years pastored in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. In 1982, the Adventist Church became indignant as Mark began to teach God's grace and he was forced to resign and was ostracized from the church.
J. Mark Martin's Bio
The Ellen G. White Web Site (Contra) "Investigating the claims of SDA prophet Ellen G. White" Extensive collection of research materials.
Examination of Seventh-day Adventism and Ellen G. White (Contra) 2200+ pages
Former Adventist Fellowship Online (Contra) "A place for former Adventists who have found Jesus to be their true Sabbath rest." Includes a web-based discussion forum.
Life Assurance Ministries (Contra) Former Seventh-day Adventists pastor Dale Ratzlaf reveals the hidden errors of Adventism. The site primarily describes Dale's two books, "Sabbath in Crisis," and "The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists."
SDA Anonymous A site...
...run by former SDAs who are neither highly supportive nor totally critical and rejecting of everything from SDAism. In others words, just because SDAs teach something does not mean it is wrong. However, everything is open to investigation, resulting in the keeping of some things and, in many cases, rejection of others. The main thrust behind this ''SDAnonymous'' website is to serve as a ''transitional ministry'' for both current and former SDA Christians.
Why is this ministry necessary?
SDAnet.org
SDAnet is a media organization operated in the public interest by members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. While the owners and operators of SDAnet are members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, they are not acting in any way as official spokespersons for the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Except for those contributions which are clearly labeled as official Seventh-day Adventist Church material, the opinions expressed by contributors to the various SDAnet activities are those of the individual authors alone and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, nor do they necessarily reflect the opinions of the owners and operators of SDAnet.
About SDAnet
Seventh-day Adventists: Christian or Cult? (Contra) A series of articles examining SDA beliefs. Concludes:
We cannot accept that Adventism is a Christian Church just because it asserts that it teaches Christian dogma from the Bible. Instead, we must compare Adventism's fundamental doctrines with those long accepted by Christianity When we do so, we are forced to conclude that Adventism distorts the Bible to perpetrate its own religion essentially denying the true Good News of the Bible in order to focus upon its own heretical theology.
Is Seventh-day Adventism really Christian?
The Seventh Day Adventist Church (Contra) Good collection of articles on all aspects of Seventh-day Adventism
Seventh-day Adventist Church (Pro) The official site.
What Seventh-day Adventists Need To Know (Contra) "I simply want to supply some important information that has been 'hidden' for a long time by the church and it's hierarchy, some things that you won't hear in the Doug Batchelor's 'Millennium of Prophecy Seminar'."
- Statistics -
For statistical information, see Adherents.com
- Trivia -
The modern commercial concept of cereal food originated in the vegetarian beliefs of the American Seventh-day Adventists, who in the 1860s formed the Western Health Reform Institute, later renamed the Battle Creek Sanitarium, in Battle Creek, Mich. The entrepreneurial possibilities of the ground, thin-baked cereal dough served to the Sanitarium's patients inspired two men, C.W. Post and W.K. Kellogg, each to found his own business. In the late 20th century the ready-to-eat breakfast cereal industry sold the equivalent of several billion bowls of cereal to Americans yearly, having far surpassed the market for the traditional "hot" cereals made from rolled oatmeal or enriched wheat farina.
Breakfast Cereal, Encyclopedia Britannica
Here is a great link to the beliefs of the 7th Day Adventist for anyone who might be interested in their viewpoints. Many times on prophecy sites, they will take over, attacking others- especially Catholics- who they have a special hatred. Some classify them as a cult, but read the info in the link before you decide.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s18.html
From the website:
...our opinion that the Seventh-day Adventist church is, theologically, a cult of Christinaity. This is due to the movement's continued promotion of doctrines that are contrary to the gospel and unorthodox in nature
As noted below there are various factions with the SDA, ranging from those who wish the movement would fully enter into the 'evangelical mainstream,' while others prefer to hold on to various heresies.
Our view is that Seventh-day Adventist who are unhappy with the movement's unbiblical teachings should leave and renounce Seventh-day Adventism, and instead join a Biblical church instead.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Christian apologists and countercult experts disagree on whether or not Seventh-day Adventism (SDA) should be classified as, theologically, a cult of Christianity.
Some state that while SDA includes a number of doctrines that are outside the mainstraim of historic Christian theology, Seventh-day Adventists do accept the essential doctrines of the Christian faith and should thus be considered Christians. For example, the late Walter Martin, founder of the Christian Research Institute said,
...it is perfectly possible to be a Seventh-day Adventists and be a true follower of Jesus Christ despite heterodox concepts...
Walter Martin, Kingdom of the Cults (Bethany House, Minneapolis, Minnesota), Updated edition 1997, p.517. (Note: See also this interview with Walter Martin.
This is still the position taken by today's Christian Research Institute:
Though several capable Christian scholars (e.g. Anthony Hoekema, J.K. van Baalen, John Gerstner) have concluded that SDA is a non-Christian cult system, CRI has continued to assert that this is not the case. We take this position based on the content of the doctrine which was stated in an official SDA publication (1957) entitled Questions on Doctrine.
[...]
Since SDA does accept the foundational doctrines of historic Christianity (The Trinity, Christ's true deity, His bodily resurrection, etc.) we do not believe that it should be classified as a non-Christian cult.
[...]
This does not mean that we endorse the entire theological structure of SDA, since a portion of it is definitely out of the mainstream of historic Christian theology (e.g. Sabbatarianism, conditional immorality or soul sleep, annihiliation of the wicked). Though we would adamantly disagree with Adventists regarding these above mentioned doctrines, it should be added that one could hold these views and remain a believing Christian. In other words, these doctrines do not secure or necessarily inhibit salvation.
Source: Seventh-day Adventism">Christian Research Institute statement on SDA
Others point out that SDA also also includes teachings that are contrary to the gospel, and are unorthodox in nature.
Historically, evangelicals have had difficulty defining and categorizing SDA. Much SDA doctrine is biblically orthodox. Within its ranks are many true Christians, some even in positions of prominence. At various points in its history, most notably in the 1888 General Conference, the SDA church has been shaken by the biblical gospel. In the 1970s this became quite intense (Se: Paxton, Geoffrey, J., The Shaking of Adventism). Unfortunately, it produced a polarization. The church administrators generally became more entrenched in the unorthodox positions of traditional SDA, while some pastors and even whole congregations left or were asked to leave the SDA church ("From Controversy to Crisis," CRI Journal, Vol. 11, No. 1, pp. 9–14). In official publications the SDA church continues to defend Ellen White legends, and maintain there was no difference in the degree of inspiration she received from that received by Bible writers (Review & Herald, 4 October 1928, p. 11; "Source of Final Appeal," Adventist Review, 3 June 1971, pp. 4–6; G. A. Irwin, Mark of the Beast, p. 1; "The Inspiration and Authority of the Ellen G. White Writings," Adventist Review, 15 July 1982, p. 3; Ministry, October 1981, p. 8; see also, Judged by the Gospel, pp. 125–30). In their June, 2000, General Conference they voted to more aggressively affirm and support the "Spirit of Prophecy through the ministry of Ellen White"(Adventist Today, [online: July 2000] ). They also teach a number of other doctrines clearly irreconcilable with the biblical gospel (see "Doctrine," below). So long as these things continue, evangelicals must persist in questioning the status of the SDA church organization in Christianity, and much more, her claim to be God’s only true, end-time "Remnant Church."
[...]
SDA teachings most clearly contrary to the gospel and unorthodox in nature are its insistence on water baptism as an essential prerequisite to salvation, its teaching about the end time significance of sabbath observance to identification of true believers, and its doctrine of the Investigative Judgement.
Source: Watchman Fellowship profile of SDA
In effect, Seventh-day Adventism's doctrines span the range from orthodox through aberrant, heterodox, sub-orthodox and heretical.
For this reason, the publishers of Apologetics Index advise Christians not to get involved in Seventh-day Adventism, and urges those who are already part of the SDA church to instead seek out a church that teaches sound, biblical theology.
There also is a lot of confusion among Seventh-day Adventist themselves. Their problems are compounded by the fact that over the past two decades, deep divisions or factions have developed within the SDA. The Christian Research Institute states:
Those who follow Adventism closely know that the last two decades have been characterized by a deep internal conflict which has divided the denomination and left many Adventist [sic] disillusioned. Today, there are various divisions and factions within SDA. Some wish that Adventism would fully enter into the evangelical mainstream, while maintaining certain Adventist distinctives. Others, the more traditional or fundamentalist Adventists often reject portions of Question on Doctrine and seek to hold on to several heresies which arose early in the Adventist movement, such as the investigative judgement, the sinful nature of Christ, and viewing Ellen G. White as the infallible interpreter of Scripture. It is the division of Adventism, who often refer to themselves as "the remnant church," or God's exclusive agent, that CRI would regard as being cultic. Some within this camp would anathematize all of Protestantism, arguing that as Sunday-keepers they will receive the mark of the beast just prior to Christ's second coming. Admisttedly, this is the extreme part of SDA, but nevertheless well-represented.
The crisis that exists within SDA today essentially centers around the investigative judgment, an unbiblical doctrine which severely compromises if not outright denies the biblical doctrine of justification by faith. Second only to the investigative judgment issue is the all-encompassing question of the inspiration and authority of the writings of Ellen G. white. The controversy which has raged regarding the writings of Mrs. White has undoubtedly shaken the entire structure of SDA.
It is out sincere hope that this 5 million member church body, which has historically been a mixture of orthodox and heretical doctrine, will move toward a more soundly biblical position and away from the doctrinal errors it has held in the past. It is our hope that the leadership of SDA will lead its people out of all forms of legalism and into the liberty that results from being justified by God's grace through faith alone (Eph. 2:8-9).
Source: Seventh-day Adventism
Discernment ministry Watchman Fellowship notes:
SDA teachings most clearly contrary to the gospel and unorthodox in nature are its insistence on water baptism as an essential prerequisite to salvation, its teaching about the end time significance of sabbath observance to identification of true believers, and its doctrine of the Investigative Judgement.
(...)
Other distinctive SDA teachings include vegetarianism and other ''health'' issues, and the doctrine of ''soul sleep,'' a misnomer for the belief that between death and resurrection one is essentially non-existent except in the memory of God. This is definitely aberrant from the Bible, but does not conflict the gospel. Much of the SDA health message may actually be helpful. But when, as is often the case, spiritual stigma is attached to non-observance of its asceticism, then the gospel is compromised (Gal. 2:11-16).
(...)
Even when speaking of being saved by the righteousness of Christ, Adventist writers refer to imparted righteousness, seldom to the biblical concept of imputed righteousness. Calling it ''Christ's righteousness,'' while insisting on the believer's perfection of character as a prerequisite to salvation, is at worst a thinly veiled works salvation, or at best an attempt to mix grace and works, something the Bible says is impossible to do (Rom. 11:6). Mrs. White's words are crystal clear - one will not be forgiven till all sins are eradicated from one's life and one's character is perfected. Precisely the same heresy is found (besides many others) in Mormonism. It is not the salvation by grace alone through faith alone offered in the Bible.
The error is compounded by the teaching that this latter day 1844 event must be believed in to exercise the proper faith necessary to be saved. When Jesus said on the cross, ''It is finished, '' i.e. completed, paid in full, it cannot be that there is yet another salvation event more than 1800 years later, just as essential to salvation as Christ's death on the cross, in which one must believe in order to be saved. This is clearly ''another gospel'' (Gal. 1:6-9).
[...more...]
Seventh-day Adventist Church Profile
Even Seventh-day Adventists themselves understand that certain things set them apart from historical Christianity:
In a move almost certain to invite the scrutiny of evangelical apologists, the 57th General Conference of the Seventh-day Adventist Church voted July 2 ''to intensify efforts to inform all church members, especially young members, about the gift of prophecy through the ministry of Ellen G. White.''
White, who was one of the leading figures in the founding of the church, has remained a controversial figure in Adventism since her death in 1915. While describing her own writings as ''the lesser light'' leading to the ''greater light'' of the Bible, the promotion of her writings by the church has stirred charges of cultism against the group.
According to a report by the Adventist News Network, several delegates registered discomfort with the resolution: "Is there any resolution with similar wording that deals with the Bible?" asked Jurrien den Hollander, an Adventist pastor from the Netherlands. Hollander's motion for such a resolution was voted and referred to committee.
And, said Don C. Schneider, a 57-year-old Adventist leader from Berrien Springs, Mich., who was just elected to head the church's North American Division, while some outside the group may question the resolution's meaning, Adventist church leaders line up behind the Bible as their source of doctrine.
"There's a very clear understanding here that Seventh-day Adventists believe in the Bible, and our faith comes out of the Bible," Schneider told CT in an interview. "There's no question among the group here."
Schneider, who had been in charge of one of church activities in Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, and Wisconsin, added that he would gladly explain the group's position to any apologists or others who have questions.
"I'd be most pleased to tell anyone about my priorities of the Bible ahead of anyone else," he said.
Mark Kellner, Adventist Church Reaffirms 'Gift of Prophecy', Christianity Today, July 7, 2000 (Author is a Seventh-day Adventist)
(NOTE: Mark Kellner - who authored the above-quoted article some 30 months before he became the assistant director for news and information for the SDA's General Conference Communications Department - wants to make sure people read his entire article at the URL provided. He has been made aware of the fact that - as a matter of policy - Apologetics Index is specifically designed to encourage indepth research.
As an aside: previously, the quote shown above was shorter, which led Mr. Kellner to ask us to quote more - and to complain to Christianity Today that we quoted too much...)
It is, of course, always good to see people 'line up behind the Bible as their source of doctrine.' But Jan Paulsen, president of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, shows that the official line is quite different - emphasizing both the Bible and the writings of Ellen G. White:
A further word needs to be said about our being "loyal to our heritage and to our identity." Some would have us believe that there have been significant shifts in recent times in regard to doctrines that historically have been at the heart of Seventh-day Adventism.
Take specifically our understanding of judgment and Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary and the prophetic messages in which these teachings are contained. Some are suggesting that since the 1980 (Glacier View) meetings, the very teachings that the church affirmed that year at those meetings have been abandoned, and that the church has essentially moved to accept the very positions it rejected then. Such a claim is a distortion of reality, and nothing could be further from the truth. The historic sanctuary message, based on Scripture and supported by the writings of Ellen White, continues to be held to unequivocally. And the inspired authorities on which these and other doctrines are based, namely the Bible supported by the writings of Ellen White, continue to be the hermeneutical foundation on which we as a church place all matters of faith and conduct. Let no one think that there has been a change of position in regard to this.
Source: Perspectives on Issues Facing the World Seventh-day Adventist Church, by Jan Paulsen, president of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, Adventist Review, from comments made at the May, 2002 SDA General Conference. Emphasis added by Apologetics Index.
Thus officially, Seventh-day Adventists rely on what they consider to be the 'inspired authorities', here identified as 'the Bible supported by the writings of Ellen White.'
The SDA's reverence for Ellen G. White is problematic, to say the least:
Ellen White never held official title as the head of the church, but was one of its founders and acknowledged spiritual leader. She rather disingenuously declined to claim the title of "prophet," calling herself a "messenger" instead (Damsteegt, P.G., et. al., Seventh-day Adventists Believe. . ., p. 224). But she claimed to have the "spirit of prophecy," and that her messages were direct from God for the guidance and instruction of the church. With her knowledge and consent others called her a prophet, and even "the Spirit of Prophecy" (Barnett, Maurice, Ellen G. White & Inspiration, pp. 5–17). Having only a third grade education, Ellen White said for years she was unable to read, bolstering the claim that her beautiful prose was inspired by God. However, it has been discovered that she not only read, but plagiarized other Christian authors throughout virtually all her writings. The sad facts of this matter have been thoroughly and indisputably established in several books. (e.g., see; Rea, Walter, The White Lie; and Judged by the Gospel, pp. 361–83). Ellen White died in 1915 at age eighty-eight.
Source: Watchman Fellowship profile of SDA
Richard Kyle, an evangelical Christian writing from the perspective of a historian in his largely un-critical book ''The Religious Fringe: A History Of Alternative Religions In America,'' writes:
Whether the Seventh-day Adventists are a sect, a cult or a denomination is a matter of intense controversy. Some evangelical scholars have insisted they that are cultic. Others have claimed that they are not. Some scholars have reviewed the institutional developments of the Seventh-day Adventists and asked whether this onetime sect has now become a denomination.
This study will regard Seventh-day Adventism as a sect. To be sure, they possess some cultic characteristics. The Seventh-day Adventists have added a significant number of new and deviant teachings to the Christian tradition. They uplift a prophetic teacher, Ellen G. White, and come close to making her teachings a "third testament." Some of the prophetic positions and their teachings on the ''Investigative Judgment'' have pushed at the boundaries of Christian orthodoxy. In particular, the Investigative Judgment doctrine, which diminishes the work of Christ on the cross by emphasizing his continuing atoning work, stretches the limits of orthodoxy. The Seventh-day Adventists maintain some other beliefs and practices that give them a pronounced sectarian character, not only in the nineteenth century but also in the late twentieth. In particular, their maintenance of the sabbath and rigid dietary practices separate them form most of Christian society.
Richard Kyle, The Religious Fringe: A History Of Alternative Religions In America. InterVarsity Press, Ill. 1993. p. 150-151.
The publishers of Apologetics Index consider Seventh-day Adventism to be a cult of Christianity, due to its adherence to un-biblical and extra-biblical doctrines and practices, as well as the movement's failure to repent from its reliance on the works of Ms. Ellen G. White.
- The Clear Word Bible -
Note: Regarding the Clear Word Bible, referred to in the articles below, SDAnet declares:
''Out of his personal devotional life and study of the Scriptures Dr. Jack Blanco, chairman of the religion department at Southern College of Seventh-day Adventists in Tennessee, produced his own paraphrase of the New Testament. He undertook this project at his own initiative and was not commissioned to do so by any committee or administrator of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Though it was printed by the Review and Herald Publishing Association the issue of officially endorsing it has never come up in any church council. As such, it represents the effort of an individual Seventh-day Adventist to make the Scriptures more readable for himself and for those who choose to read it. As a paraphrase it is appropriate for ones personal devotional study. For detailed doctrinal Bible study the serious student will choose to use a more literal translation of the original languages.
The Seventh-day Adventist Church does not limit the various meaningful avenues through which its members study the Scriptures and we would hope that Dr. Blanco's significant personal effort would contribute to this purpose as well. Those who read it prayerfully should receive a blessing from it, just as they do from other paraphrases of the Bible. This Bible should in no way be considered an official Seventh-day Adventist Bible, nor did Dr. Blanco intend for it to be considered as such.''
Endorsement by Pastor Robert Folkenberg, at SDAnet
However, another statement at the site shows the Clear Word Bible, a paraphrase that includes the teachings of Ellen G. White, is widely used within the Seventh-day Adventist churches:
The introduction suggests that it is not for public reading in churches,etc., but what we are hearing suggests that it is already getting a fairly wide usage for that purpose, Sabbath School lessons, church school Bible classes, etc. IT has been advertised at least twice with a full-color full-page advertisement on the back of the Adventist Review, which includes endorsements from the General Conference president, Richard Davisson of Andrews University, and others. (These endorsements also appear on the back jacket of the book).
Clear Word ''Bible'' (sic), SDAnet
The SDAnet site also includes a letter from David Newman, editor of Ministry magazine (an SDA publication), citing his reservations regarding the Clear Word Bible:
(...) He makes it clear in the first paragraph of his Preface that "This is not a new translation but a paraphrase of the Scriptures. It is not intended for in-depth study or for public reading in churches." Unfortunately most people do not read prefaces so this very important information will be lost. Already I am hearing reports of it being used in the pulpit and as a textbook in teaching religion.
Second the author misunderstands the meaning of the word "paraphrase." A paraphrase is not a loose rendering of someone elses' words with added commentary. A paraphrase whether you use the dictionary definition or the definition used in active listening simply means restating the words of another in your own words without adding to or subtracting from the original meaning.
A cursory examination of the Clear Word Bible reveals the prolific addition of many ideas not found in Scripture.
Thirdly, where Scripture is ambiguous the author removes the ambiguities. One is left not having to make hardly any interpretations for him or herself. The author has done it for you. God evidently intended that each reader struggle with the text and decide personally how to resolve these ambiguities and tensions. Two quick examples come to mind. In 1 Cor. 15:29 we find the difficult phrase baptized for the dead. The author resolves the difficulty by telling us that being baptized in the hope of seeing dead loved ones is meaningless if you do not believe in the resurrection. Revelation 1:10 no longer has us puzzling over which day of the week the Lord's day is. The author tells us that it is the Sabbath.
Fourthly, the author has intertwined so much of Ellen White into his commentary that the general effect has been to canonize Ellen White. The author adds to Scripture in Genesis 2:25 by following Ellen White and saying that Adam and Eve were clothed with a garment of light. Daniel 8:14 is now clear that the judgment began after 2300 prophetic years.
Fifthly, the title chosen for this work is most unfortunate. This is not a Bible. It is a personal commentary on Scripture but it is not the Bible. Yet the title clearly identifies it as a Bible. It is really a specialized commentary on the Bible.
Sixthly, while the author says it is a paraphrase the format inside is not that of a paraphrase but that of the King James Bible. While most modern versions format by paragraph this "Bible" is formatted verse by verse so that it clearly looks like a traditional bible.
Seventh, I fear what our critics will say when they find how much Ellen White has contributed to this ''bible'' without any credit being given to her at all. It would be interesting to find out what percentage of this work owes itself to Ellen White.
[...more...]
A Letter From David Newman, Editor of Ministry Magazine at SDAnet.
The Clear Word Bible: Is It The Word Of God? (Contra) By Dale Ratzlaff and Verle Streifling. Watchman Fellowship examines the SDA's Clear Word Bible: "The many changes made to the biblical text in the Clear Word Bible are ultimately destructive to the integrity of God's Word."
Seventh-day Adventists are Tampering with the Word of God (Contra) By Dale Ratzlaff
The Clear Word Bible (Contra) by Gary Mayo
Clear Word Bible Examples of where Ellen G. White's teachings were inserted into the ''paraphrase.''
- Articles -
Facts Seventh-day Adventists Won't Tell You At Their Seminars (Contra) ''SDA's often make every effort to appear ''evangelical'', joining in with inter-ministry groups and trying to "blend in" with the Christian community''
Seventh-day Adventism Position statement of the Christian Research Institute
Seventh-day Adventism Profile by Watchman Fellowship
Seventh-day Adventists and the US courts: road signs along the rout of a denomiationalizing sect. by Ronald Lawson, in the Journal of Church & State, June 1, 1998: "The changing participation patterns of Seventh-day Adventists in the U.S. courts are therefore excellent indicators of shifts over time in the level of tension between Adventism and the surrounding society. They thus represent road signs along its route from sect towards denomination."
Should Christians Keep The Sabbath? (Contra)
Walter Martin Interview "Walter Martin, Christianity's cult-watcher discusses Adventism in trouble," from Adventist Currents, July, 1983.
- Books: Online -
Cast Out For The Cross Of Christ by Albion Ballenger
Sabbatarianism Re-Examined Robert D. Brinsmead, Editor
Seventh-day Adventism and the Writings of Ellen G. White by J. Mark Martin (see the "7th Day Adventism - What You Should Know" site.
Seventh-day Adventism Renounced by D.M. Canright
- Multimedia -
An Evangelical Adventist? 6 messages by pastor J. Mark Martin (Requires RealAudio) The series can also be ordered on cassette tape. Part of the "7th Day Adventism - What You Should Know" site.
The Spirit Behind The Church (Video)
For those who may agree or for those who strongly disagree, viewers of this documentary will find it a most fascinating exploration into the cultic aspects of the teachings of Ellen G. White. Recommended for Christians who seek genuine answers based on the best scholarship and firm adherence to the truths of God's word.
Dr. James Kennedy, Ph.D., quoted at The Spirit Behind The Church
This video shows beyond all doubt that Ellen G. White meets all the qualifications of a false prophet. This is done with historical accuracy and heavy primary documentation. What is shown as well from the writings of the Adventist Church, is that the authoritative teachings cannot be changed and challenged. This included law keeping for salvation (conditional salvation). Also documented is the Adventist propensity for altering and changing Scripture itself. This is a video that needs to be seen not only by individuals but needs to be shown in churches as well.
[...more...]
G.R.Fisher (Personal Freedom Outreach), quoted at The Spirit Behind The Church
- News Database -
Items added after August, 2002:
» Religion News Blog News Collection, various sources
Older Items:
» Database of archived news items
(Includes items added between Oct. 25, 1999 and Jan. 31, 2002. See about this database)
Older item not in the searchable database: (Sep 8, 1999) Task Force Considers Recruiting On Campus [SDA joins other cults in lawsuit against Task Force study on Cults]
- Overview/Profile -
Adventists (Neutral) Entry in the Encyclopedia Britannica, includes a look at the sect's history and beliefs
Seventh-day Adventists Church Profile (Contra) by Watchman Fellowship, representing the evangelical Christian point of view.
- See Also -
» 3ABN - Three Angels Broadcasting Network
» Branch Davidians (a sect of Seventh-day Adventism)
- Sites -
7th Day Adventism - What You Should Know (Contra) The site is operated by pastor J. Mark Martin (Calvary Chapel), who grew up in SDA. It includes clear overviews and refutations of SDA doctrine, audio message (listen via RealAudio, or order the tapes), and a thorough bibliography.
J. Mark Martin is senior pastor of Calvary Community Church in Phoenix, a Calvary Chapel. Pastor Mark received a B.A. in theology from Pacific Union College in Angwin, California and for six years pastored in the Seventh-day Adventist Church. In 1982, the Adventist Church became indignant as Mark began to teach God's grace and he was forced to resign and was ostracized from the church.
J. Mark Martin's Bio
The Ellen G. White Web Site (Contra) "Investigating the claims of SDA prophet Ellen G. White" Extensive collection of research materials.
Examination of Seventh-day Adventism and Ellen G. White (Contra) 2200+ pages
Former Adventist Fellowship Online (Contra) "A place for former Adventists who have found Jesus to be their true Sabbath rest." Includes a web-based discussion forum.
Life Assurance Ministries (Contra) Former Seventh-day Adventists pastor Dale Ratzlaf reveals the hidden errors of Adventism. The site primarily describes Dale's two books, "Sabbath in Crisis," and "The Cultic Doctrine of Seventh-day Adventists."
SDA Anonymous A site...
...run by former SDAs who are neither highly supportive nor totally critical and rejecting of everything from SDAism. In others words, just because SDAs teach something does not mean it is wrong. However, everything is open to investigation, resulting in the keeping of some things and, in many cases, rejection of others. The main thrust behind this ''SDAnonymous'' website is to serve as a ''transitional ministry'' for both current and former SDA Christians.
Why is this ministry necessary?
SDAnet.org
SDAnet is a media organization operated in the public interest by members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church. While the owners and operators of SDAnet are members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, they are not acting in any way as official spokespersons for the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Except for those contributions which are clearly labeled as official Seventh-day Adventist Church material, the opinions expressed by contributors to the various SDAnet activities are those of the individual authors alone and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, nor do they necessarily reflect the opinions of the owners and operators of SDAnet.
About SDAnet
Seventh-day Adventists: Christian or Cult? (Contra) A series of articles examining SDA beliefs. Concludes:
We cannot accept that Adventism is a Christian Church just because it asserts that it teaches Christian dogma from the Bible. Instead, we must compare Adventism's fundamental doctrines with those long accepted by Christianity When we do so, we are forced to conclude that Adventism distorts the Bible to perpetrate its own religion essentially denying the true Good News of the Bible in order to focus upon its own heretical theology.
Is Seventh-day Adventism really Christian?
The Seventh Day Adventist Church (Contra) Good collection of articles on all aspects of Seventh-day Adventism
Seventh-day Adventist Church (Pro) The official site.
What Seventh-day Adventists Need To Know (Contra) "I simply want to supply some important information that has been 'hidden' for a long time by the church and it's hierarchy, some things that you won't hear in the Doug Batchelor's 'Millennium of Prophecy Seminar'."
- Statistics -
For statistical information, see Adherents.com
- Trivia -
The modern commercial concept of cereal food originated in the vegetarian beliefs of the American Seventh-day Adventists, who in the 1860s formed the Western Health Reform Institute, later renamed the Battle Creek Sanitarium, in Battle Creek, Mich. The entrepreneurial possibilities of the ground, thin-baked cereal dough served to the Sanitarium's patients inspired two men, C.W. Post and W.K. Kellogg, each to found his own business. In the late 20th century the ready-to-eat breakfast cereal industry sold the equivalent of several billion bowls of cereal to Americans yearly, having far surpassed the market for the traditional "hot" cereals made from rolled oatmeal or enriched wheat farina.
Breakfast Cereal, Encyclopedia Britannica
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Re: Info on the 7th Day Adventists
Orates said:Here is a great link to the beliefs of the 7th Day Adventist for anyone who might be interested in their viewpoints. Many times on prophecy sites, they will take over, attacking others- especially Catholics- who they have a special hatred. Some classify them as a cult, but read the info in the link before you decide.
http://www.apologeticsindex.org/s18.html
******
Hi again: First off I am not a SDA. But for other reasons than the read of this site that you post up. But, if you really sincerely wanted to know what they believe, why not go to the official church site itself, instead of passing a 'great link' that I doubt that you are in membership with??
I do take offence with your post though! Did you get that???
I think your 'idea' in posting is very flawed if you think that this site is correct, if you have not studied their doctrines yourself.
Such as your 'posted above' remark that Adventist have a 'special hatred' of Catholics? Let me just leave off with this question or two? In Revelation 18:4 we see that Christ has His own 'yoked' in this fold. (regardless of whom it is) Now, is the fold & its false doctrines hated of Christ, or the person??? (compare 1 John 2:4)
And in Revelation 17:5 we see both Mother & Daughter Harlots that the compilers have in bold lettering, with, 'THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH'. Now, can Christians call these folds Christian?? And read Revelation 3:9, can I call the synagogue of satan a Christian fold? (perhaps the question should be addressed to you rather than me?)
No: There is a great difference in an apostate church fold being condemned, than in trying to judge a member of any fold as non/christian!
Do you follow me?? (I have a tendency to spin my wheels at times? :wink
Just one last question. In both John 10:16 & Revelation 18:4 we see Christ saying about the same thing. His 'ignorant' converted children are being called out of apostate churchs. So, if He were to be INSIDE of those church's, (to make them Christian) why would He say that they [MUST] leave or be PARTAKERS of her sins??? He might be in the individual ones heart, but not in the Abominable false fold.
--John
Vic C.
Member
Wow :o Orates
I don't think that was long enough. ;-)
9 - Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info. We want to respect copyrighted material. Refrain from all caps and bold, large fonts. Hotlinking of photos is PROHIBITED! We have a thread which explains how to post a photo
I don't think that was long enough. ;-)
9 - Please keep posts down to a respectable length and provide source and/or links for your info. We want to respect copyrighted material. Refrain from all caps and bold, large fonts. Hotlinking of photos is PROHIBITED! We have a thread which explains how to post a photo
Thread subject
Thanks for the 'welcome back.' Vic! Fat chance there was in my ability to stay for awhile before getting hooked by other obligations! You know how it is; 'the hurrier I go, the behinder I get! :-D
I tried to finalize this issue late one evening and got into trouble when attempting to cut duplication out of my post, so just had to to abandon it.
Vic wrote:
>>> My contentions are that Scofield was long dead when this (below) was published:
You said:
Quote: An annotation in the Scofield 1967 edition states the following: "The theme of 2 Thes. has, unfortunately, been obscured by a mistranslation in the KJV of 2:2 where 'Day of Christ is at hand' should be 'Day of the Lord' is present." Try the NASB or the NIV or the Amplified Bible to check it out.
I said:
Quote: C. I. Scoffield states in a footnote in the Oxford NIV Scofield Study Bible, p. 1198:
"The expression 'the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,' identified with His coming (1 Cor 1:7), is the period of blessing for the Church beginning with the rapture. This coming day is referred to as 'the day of the Lord' (1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 1:14), 'the day of Christ Jesus' (Phil 1:6), and 'the day of Christ' (Phil 1:10; 2:16), 'The day of Christ' in all six references in the N.T. is described as relating to the reward and blessing of the Church at the rapture in contrast with the expression 'the day of the Lord which is related to judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and blessing on millennial saints
_______________________________________________________________________
Scofield died in 1921, so I question whether or not this (what you quoted) was actually his thoughts. Jason, (JM) knows more about this than I, so I hopes he chimes in. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.<<<
Q: That C.I. Scofield died in 1921 has nothing to do with the four reprintings [All copyrighted] of his KJV version, that repeat the annotations made in his first publication in 1909. The 1967 Editorial Committee chairman was, Dr. E.Schuyler English, Litt.D. The rest of the Editorial Committee was:
A. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School.
B. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute.
C. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary.
D. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology.
E. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible.
F. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary.
G. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes.
H. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary.
I. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible. [Honorary]
That Scofield referred to the Day of Christ as that, when Jesus returns for His Church as opposed to the Day of the Lord, as that of the 70th and final 'week' [seven years] of God's decree upon Israel and His intervention into the affairs of man, Jew and Gentile alike.
2 Thes.2:2 refers to the Thessalonicans being told, Christ had already come and they were already into the Day of the Lord, the tribulation. Paul teells them the Day of the Lord will not come until the DEPARTURE comes first [The Day of Christ, when He comes to catch us up in the clouds of the sky with Him, in vs 3]. Though paraphrased, that's what it means.
Since I have a '67 copy of The Scofield Bible, there are many more notes he wrote on this subject at my disposal. However, what He contributed in his works remain in the same way those of Jesus have, Sir Isaac Newton, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln. Though they are dead, there contributions to society remain. So your doubts are quite unfounded.
Blessings
Quasar
Thanks for the 'welcome back.' Vic! Fat chance there was in my ability to stay for awhile before getting hooked by other obligations! You know how it is; 'the hurrier I go, the behinder I get! :-D
I tried to finalize this issue late one evening and got into trouble when attempting to cut duplication out of my post, so just had to to abandon it.
Vic wrote:
>>> My contentions are that Scofield was long dead when this (below) was published:
You said:
Quote: An annotation in the Scofield 1967 edition states the following: "The theme of 2 Thes. has, unfortunately, been obscured by a mistranslation in the KJV of 2:2 where 'Day of Christ is at hand' should be 'Day of the Lord' is present." Try the NASB or the NIV or the Amplified Bible to check it out.
I said:
Quote: C. I. Scoffield states in a footnote in the Oxford NIV Scofield Study Bible, p. 1198:
"The expression 'the day of our Lord Jesus Christ,' identified with His coming (1 Cor 1:7), is the period of blessing for the Church beginning with the rapture. This coming day is referred to as 'the day of the Lord' (1 Cor 5:5; 2 Cor 1:14), 'the day of Christ Jesus' (Phil 1:6), and 'the day of Christ' (Phil 1:10; 2:16), 'The day of Christ' in all six references in the N.T. is described as relating to the reward and blessing of the Church at the rapture in contrast with the expression 'the day of the Lord which is related to judgment upon unbelieving Jews and Gentiles, and blessing on millennial saints
_______________________________________________________________________
Scofield died in 1921, so I question whether or not this (what you quoted) was actually his thoughts. Jason, (JM) knows more about this than I, so I hopes he chimes in. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.<<<
Q: That C.I. Scofield died in 1921 has nothing to do with the four reprintings [All copyrighted] of his KJV version, that repeat the annotations made in his first publication in 1909. The 1967 Editorial Committee chairman was, Dr. E.Schuyler English, Litt.D. The rest of the Editorial Committee was:
A. Frank L. Gaebelein, A.M., Litt.D., Headmaster Emiritus, The Stoney Brook School.
B. William Culbertson, D.D., L.L.D., President, Moody Bible Institute.
C. Charles L. Feinberg, ThD., PhD., Dean, Talbot Theological Seminary.
D. Allan A. Mac Rae, A.M., PhD., President, Biblical School of Theology.
E. Clarence E. Mason, Jr., Th.M., D.D., Dean, Philadelphia College of Bible.
F. Alva J. Mc Clain, Th.M., D.D., President Emeritus, Grace Theological Seminary.
G. Wilbur M. Smith, D.D., Editor, Peloubet's Select Notes.
H. John F. Walvoord, A.M., Th.D., President, Dallas Theological Seminary.
I. C.I. Scofield, D.D., Editor, Scofield Bible. [Honorary]
That Scofield referred to the Day of Christ as that, when Jesus returns for His Church as opposed to the Day of the Lord, as that of the 70th and final 'week' [seven years] of God's decree upon Israel and His intervention into the affairs of man, Jew and Gentile alike.
2 Thes.2:2 refers to the Thessalonicans being told, Christ had already come and they were already into the Day of the Lord, the tribulation. Paul teells them the Day of the Lord will not come until the DEPARTURE comes first [The Day of Christ, when He comes to catch us up in the clouds of the sky with Him, in vs 3]. Though paraphrased, that's what it means.
Since I have a '67 copy of The Scofield Bible, there are many more notes he wrote on this subject at my disposal. However, what He contributed in his works remain in the same way those of Jesus have, Sir Isaac Newton, Thomas Jefferson and Abraham Lincoln. Though they are dead, there contributions to society remain. So your doubts are quite unfounded.
Blessings
Quasar
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Some folk used to believe that the world was flat also? Some still do I guess? The point is, cannot we use the Master's Word & think for our self? Perhaps not. Hosea 4:6 In the K.J. see Luke 12:47-48. I guess that there is little hope for most of the Revelation 17:5 ones
One needs to step back & read what others see, is your bible! Once again, many on these boards sound like their mother Rome with her many traditions & Arm of Flesh. Whats more, is that they are all dead!
And I know that some will think that this is harsh, but you need to see it from the outside looking in!
---John
One needs to step back & read what others see, is your bible! Once again, many on these boards sound like their mother Rome with her many traditions & Arm of Flesh. Whats more, is that they are all dead!
And I know that some will think that this is harsh, but you need to see it from the outside looking in!
---John
Let's back up to the original subject of this thread for a few minutes:
There will be no 'falling away' before the Church of Jesus Christ is Caught Up to meet Him in the clouds of the sky. The original translation of the Greek terjm 'apostasia' for the context of Paul's second letter to the Thessalonicans, is TO DEPART or DEPARTURE, in 2 Thes.2:3.
There are several translations for 'apostasia,' including, to fall away, or apostasy. But the context it is used in determines which one is used. In the case of the above, the entire context of Paul's letter is about a rapture. Theree isn't a single word of it that says anything at all about the Church 'falling away' before being Caught up to be with Jesus, the DEPARTURE of the Church. If you think you can find any, please support it with the Scripture where it is supposed to be found.
Jerome translating the Greek Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century, translated it as 'discessio,' meaning DEPARTURE. Seven English translations of the Bible, all published before the KJV in 1611, also translated it as DEPARTURE. I have posted all the information about this under another thread on this site. The KJV changed the translation without giving any reason for having done so. Subsequent translations, like dominoes, followed suit.
Verse 7 is in complete harmony with the above, in stating [paraphrased], "...and the one who restrains will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way." The "he" is the ONE BODY OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, by the ONE SPIRIT, as in 1 Cor.12:12-13.
After the rapture of the Church takes place in vs 3 and 7, the Antichrist is revealed, in vs3-4 and 8, AFTER THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH. He is the same person as the "he" in Dan.9:27, who 'confirms a covenant' with Israel for ONE WEEK, and the same "he" who breaks the covenant in the middle of the WEEK, i.e. after 3.5 years into the tribulation, when he sets up an abomination of desolation, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15. He is seen as the trigger to the 70th and final WEEK of God's decree upon Israel, the Day of the Lord, the tribulation. He is also the sakme person, the rider of the first of four horseman of the Apocalypse, on the white Horse, who triggers the tribulation in Rev.6:2.
Blessings,
Quasar
There will be no 'falling away' before the Church of Jesus Christ is Caught Up to meet Him in the clouds of the sky. The original translation of the Greek terjm 'apostasia' for the context of Paul's second letter to the Thessalonicans, is TO DEPART or DEPARTURE, in 2 Thes.2:3.
There are several translations for 'apostasia,' including, to fall away, or apostasy. But the context it is used in determines which one is used. In the case of the above, the entire context of Paul's letter is about a rapture. Theree isn't a single word of it that says anything at all about the Church 'falling away' before being Caught up to be with Jesus, the DEPARTURE of the Church. If you think you can find any, please support it with the Scripture where it is supposed to be found.
Jerome translating the Greek Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century, translated it as 'discessio,' meaning DEPARTURE. Seven English translations of the Bible, all published before the KJV in 1611, also translated it as DEPARTURE. I have posted all the information about this under another thread on this site. The KJV changed the translation without giving any reason for having done so. Subsequent translations, like dominoes, followed suit.
Verse 7 is in complete harmony with the above, in stating [paraphrased], "...and the one who restrains will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way." The "he" is the ONE BODY OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, by the ONE SPIRIT, as in 1 Cor.12:12-13.
After the rapture of the Church takes place in vs 3 and 7, the Antichrist is revealed, in vs3-4 and 8, AFTER THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH. He is the same person as the "he" in Dan.9:27, who 'confirms a covenant' with Israel for ONE WEEK, and the same "he" who breaks the covenant in the middle of the WEEK, i.e. after 3.5 years into the tribulation, when he sets up an abomination of desolation, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15. He is seen as the trigger to the 70th and final WEEK of God's decree upon Israel, the Day of the Lord, the tribulation. He is also the sakme person, the rider of the first of four horseman of the Apocalypse, on the white Horse, who triggers the tribulation in Rev.6:2.
Blessings,
Quasar
Thread subject
Do you have some kind of a problem with Pr.8:22-36, where the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus is 'given birth,' the first of God's works of old, before the world began, who was the 'craftsman at His side,' when He created the world, in vs 30? The FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION, in Col.1:15? In perfect harmony with Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5!
Or in Isa.43:10 and 44:6 where God made it clear He is the One and Only God? Meaning that the created pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus DID NOT HAVE HIS DEITY until He was incarnated by the Holy Spirit through the virgin Mary, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35, fulfilling God's prophecy in Ps.45:6-7 and Isa.7:14, as well as Ps.2:7. When those prophecies were fulfilled, they were repeated in Mt.1:23 and in Heb.1:5 and 8-9 See also Heb.10:5.
If you have some other form of problem with the Scriptural supported posts I write, then lets see your Scriptural support for challenging me rather than making involid personal inuendos. I have noticed from all the posts on this thread that everyone seems to believe he has the gift of prophecy from the Holy Spirit. But with the various views, it is clear that is not the case, as there is only one correct interpretation of prophecy, which is not given to everyone by the Holy Spirit. See 1 Cor.12.
Blessings,
Quasar
John the Baptist said:Some folk used to believe that the world was flat also? Some still do I guess? The point is, cannot we use the Master's Word & think for our self? Perhaps not. Hosea 4:6 In the K.J. see Luke 12:47-48. I guess that there is little hope for most of the Revelation 17:5 ones
One needs to step back & read what others see, is your bible! Once again, many on these boards sound like their mother Rome with her many traditions & Arm of Flesh. Whats more, is that they are all dead!
And I know that some will think that this is harsh, but you need to see it from the outside looking in!
---John
Do you have some kind of a problem with Pr.8:22-36, where the pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus is 'given birth,' the first of God's works of old, before the world began, who was the 'craftsman at His side,' when He created the world, in vs 30? The FIRSTBORN OVER ALL CREATION, in Col.1:15? In perfect harmony with Jn.1:1-2 and 17:5!
Or in Isa.43:10 and 44:6 where God made it clear He is the One and Only God? Meaning that the created pre-incarnated spirit of Jesus DID NOT HAVE HIS DEITY until He was incarnated by the Holy Spirit through the virgin Mary, in Mt.1:20 and in Lk.1:35, fulfilling God's prophecy in Ps.45:6-7 and Isa.7:14, as well as Ps.2:7. When those prophecies were fulfilled, they were repeated in Mt.1:23 and in Heb.1:5 and 8-9 See also Heb.10:5.
If you have some other form of problem with the Scriptural supported posts I write, then lets see your Scriptural support for challenging me rather than making involid personal inuendos. I have noticed from all the posts on this thread that everyone seems to believe he has the gift of prophecy from the Holy Spirit. But with the various views, it is clear that is not the case, as there is only one correct interpretation of prophecy, which is not given to everyone by the Holy Spirit. See 1 Cor.12.
Blessings,
Quasar
J
John the Baptist
Guest
Quasar said:Let's back up to the original subject of this thread for a few minutes:
There will be no 'falling away' before the Church of Jesus Christ is Caught Up to meet Him in the clouds of the sky. The original translation of the Greek terjm 'apostasia' for the context of Paul's second letter to the Thessalonicans, is TO DEPART or DEPARTURE, in 2 Thes.2:3.
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John here:
Enough read! :fadein: (full of highlights & for emphasis only)
You best use the K.J. alone & dump ALL of the Arm of Flesh 'desired' choices! The Word explains ITSELF! It is its OWN hermeneutics! It needs none of the extra man exercises & tradition. There were seen FALLINGS AWAY from heaven on through, to the last one that Paul tell's us about in Thess.. And your theology (someones at least) is doing exactly as he warned about!: (see Ezekiel 33:6!) And where are you at? Right here in the midst of the escalating END (Genesis 6:3 Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 Ecclesiastes 3:15) of time!!!
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There are several translations for 'apostasia,' including, to fall away, or apostasy. But the context it is used in determines which one is used. In the case of the above, the entire context of Paul's letter is about a rapture. Theree isn't a single word of it that says anything at all about the Church 'falling away' before being Caught up to be with Jesus, the DEPARTURE of the Church. If you think you can find any, please support it with the Scripture where it is supposed to be found.
****
Again! THERE IS NO NEW THING UNDER THE SUN! Got That? Twice in history the True Virgin Fold MUST DEPART FROM CHRIST! OT & END of the NT. Matthewn 23:38 in the midst of the week He was put to death by WHOM? Hebrews 6:6 finds the same repeat 'SPIRITUALLY'. [They are His OWN VIRGIN IN DOCTRINAL TRUTH ONES].
Who on earth do you think are the ones of Revelation 3:9? Take your pick of these 7 Virgin Candelsticks? There is the seventh one, Laodicea mentioned last, Philadelphia, the sixth, is 'KEPT' from the LAST 'hour of temptation' (666 & Plagues) Revelation 3:10-11! Verse 11 finds us at the time of Christ's Second coming. Laodicea IS SPEWED OUT! (1 Peter 4:17 Falling away..JUDGEMENT!) The [whole] fold 7th candelstick IS REMOVED AGAIN! See Revelation 2:5. [[[AND THE SEVEN IS AGAIN TOTALLY FALLEN AWAY & THE SIXTH REPLACES THE SEVENTH leaving only the Seventh.]]] As was the case with the First Virgin Doctrinal True Fold... HIS OWN! (check again Revelation 12:17!)
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Jerome translating the Greek Septuagint into the Latin Vulgate in the 4th century, translated it as 'discessio,' meaning DEPARTURE. Seven English translations of the Bible, all published before the KJV in 1611, also translated it as DEPARTURE. I have posted all the information about this under another thread on this site. The KJV changed the translation without giving any reason for having done so. Subsequent translations, like dominoes, followed suit.
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Will you please get back to [IT IS WRITTEN?] See again & again Jeremiah 17:5 0n. CURSED, you got that? This 'post' is not much differant than that of the TRADITION of Romes stuff. Who cares about your 'choice' of what the word of 'is' means? (Bill Clinton) All one needs is to look back into history of the WORD OF GOD. What did Israel do? Who fell AWAY, who left Whom? See again Revelation 12:17 :o
ALL need to 'junk' the arm of flesh stuff, and get back to Bible Study! Matthew 4:4 & 2 Timothy 3:16 never even mentions the Titus 3:9-11 VAIN Arm of flesh extra stuff, other than to stuff it! NO PERSONAL OFFENSE MEANT!
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Verse 7 is in complete harmony with the above, in stating [paraphrased], "...and the one who restrains will continue to do so until he is taken out of the way." The "he" is the ONE BODY OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST, by the ONE SPIRIT, as in 1 Cor.12:12-13.
After the rapture of the Church takes place in vs 3 and 7, the Antichrist is revealed, in vs3-4 and 8, AFTER THE RAPTURE OF THE CHURCH. He is the same person as the "he" in Dan.9:27, who 'confirms a covenant' with Israel for ONE WEEK, and the same "he" who breaks the covenant in the middle of the WEEK, i.e. after 3.5 years into the tribulation, when he sets up an abomination of desolation, confirmed by Jesus in Mt.24:15. He is seen as the trigger to the 70th and final WEEK of God's decree upon Israel, the Day of the Lord, the tribulation. He is also the sakme person, the rider of the first of four horseman of the Apocalypse, on the white Horse, who triggers the tribulation in Rev.6:2.
Blessings,
Quasar
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Blessings??? Are you kidding me? Are you tooooo proud to go back to square (?) one, and start all over again? You remind me somewhat of Saul (Paul) who was killing Christians & who was REQUIRED to make a total about/face. :fadein: It WAS ALL GIVEN UP! Acts 9:6 & Acts 9:4-5.
You say that our work is not killing Christians??? Ask yourself how many will be lost by the eternal evil Vain flawed teaching.. with 'some' ones even convicted of it being flawed, (a lie) of the Burning in hell through all of eternity? (plus their/self!)
One thing is certain, the accurate heavenly record books will reveal this question! And back to the FALLING AWAY FIRST? Even a foolish Virgin can see this! Bottom line?? This 'doctrine' has FALLEN AWAY from the Truth! Compare Ecclesiastes 3:14 with the last verses of the Master's Words.
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