The Falling Away Must Come First

[John the Baptist]

Hi 'you all', John here. Read this again slowly in Rev. 3:16-17. Surely most folk understand that these are the seventh candlestick, and that tell's the problem with ALL of them as an Whole Church candlestick. Double check Revelation 1:20 & Revelation 2:5 for the CONDITIONAL nature of the 'EVERLASTING' Gospel & Covenant! (Rev. 14:6 & Heb. 13:20)

Here is what Christ saysRev. 3:16-17
"I know thy works, that thou art [neither cold nor hot]: I would thou wert cold or hot.

So then [because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold or hot, I WILL SPEW THEE OUT OF MY MOUTH.]

Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and [knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind; and naked]."

I find NO CONDEMNATION from Christ about His Virgin Doctrines!
I find that the whole fold love Christ, yet it is an sickening second place love at best! Compare old Israel in Isaiah 5:1-3 & STOP on verse 5! Notice what the problem is said to be? And what Christ tell's them to do!!! Now, look on up at verse.. Isaiah 5:7-8!

All of these [in] (compare Matthew 25 for to go ye OUT!) Christ's True Virgin Fold are Blind & Naked!
Now: Ask yourself how you measure your 'personal' self with these ones of both Israel of old, and Laodicea of this last Virgin fold?

They had and are having the 'prophesied SHAKING! And as reported in their fold, "As of June 30, 202, the world membership stood at nearly 12.6 million. ... On current projections, there will be nearly 61 million Adventists by the year 2030" Another Report: "Adventists in North America returned tithe of $707 million in 2002."

Ok: These of old Israel were 'professed' (compare Matthew 23:2-3) 7th. day Sabbath keepers, Tithe payers, ate no unclean meat, were bringing in converts from all over the world, (see Matthew 23:15!) No 'smokes', 'drinking', 'dancing', 'movies' etc. (at least that is the way of yester/year!

They had it all as far as the Virgin Truth went. (John 10:16-Ephesians 4:5) Yet, they lacked the [FIRST LOVE that CHRIST REQUIRES OF HIMSELF!

So we see today that the devil goes to the other extreme of Professing to love Christ with NO OBEDIENCE, huh? Both class have FALLEN AWAY!!
Yet, we are told which class will be held most responsible in Luke 12:47-48 and which class are to be judged 'FALLING AWAY FIRST' 1 Peter 4:17..

 

[Vic C.]

Dear vic,

This is how I see it. Please look at Revelation 19:7...

... This occurs during/after Revelation 19 as the "Groom" comes out of His chamber with the souls of them who died in Him as He comes to earth to gather the (The Trib tested Saints) and now His wife is complete and ready for the wedding!
Praise God

Hello

So I don't misunderstand you, who do you believe the "souls" and "wife" are in your statement above?

Thanks. 8-)

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

Dear vic,

This is how I see it. Please look at Revelation 19:7...

... This occurs during/after Revelation 19 as the "Groom" comes out of His chamber with the souls of them who died in Him as He comes to earth to gather the (The Trib tested Saints) and now His wife is complete and ready for the wedding!
Praise God

Hello

So I don't misunderstand you, who do you believe the "souls" and "wife" are in your statement above?

Thanks. 8-)

Dear vic,

I see the wife as the Jews in Christ. I see her complete after she has been purified by fire through (Tribulation). Am I confusing things here?I am open to other points of view of course on this. 8-)

 

[John the Baptist]

Dear vic,

This is how I see it. Please look at Revelation 19:7...

... This occurs during/after Revelation 19 as the "Groom" comes out of His chamber with the souls of them who died in Him as He comes to earth to gather the (The Trib tested Saints) and now His wife is complete and ready for the wedding!
Praise God

Hello

So I don't misunderstand you, who do you believe the "souls" and "wife" are in your statement above?

Thanks. 8-)

Dear vic,

I see the wife as the entire body of Christ. I see her complete after she has been purified by fire (Tribulation). Am I confusing things here? Some say only Jews or trib only saints are the wife. I am open to other points of view of course on this. 8-)

**
John here:
Why did Christ send Saul to the church fold? Why did Christ tell us that these in Matthew 18:15-18 could either 'bind' in heaven 'or 'loose' in heaven from inside of the Pure Virgin Fold on earth? (conditional of course)

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

Dear vic,

This is how I see it. Please look at Revelation 19:7...

... This occurs during/after Revelation 19 as the "Groom" comes out of His chamber with the souls of them who died in Him as He comes to earth to gather the (The Trib tested Saints) and now His wife is complete and ready for the wedding!
Praise God

Hello

So I don't misunderstand you, who do you believe the "souls" and "wife" are in your statement above?

Thanks. 8-)

Dear vic,

I see the wife as the entire body of Christ. I see her complete after she has been purified by fire (Tribulation). Am I confusing things here? Some say only Jews or trib only saints are the wife. I am open to other points of view of course on this. 8-)

**
John here:
Why did Christ send Saul to the church fold? Why did Christ tell us that these in Matthew 18:15-18 could either 'bind' in heaven 'or 'loose' in heaven from inside of the Pure Virgin Fold on earth? (conditional of course)

Dear John The Baptist,

I made a correction to my post that may help. Thank you. I am running 102 fever and not thinking well. Thank you. I will comment further in future.

 

[Vic C.]

Dear vic,

I see the wife as the Jews in Christ. I see her complete after she has been purified by fire through (Tribulation). Am I confusing things here?I am open to other points of view of course on this.

I understand and we (i think) are in agreement. :D

Now, back away from the keyboard and get some rest! 102* :o

 

[John the Baptist]

**
John here:
Why did Christ send Saul to the church fold? Why did Christ tell us that these in Matthew 18:15-18 could either 'bind' in heaven 'or 'loose' in heaven from inside of the Pure Virgin Fold on earth? (conditional of course)

Dear John The Baptist,

I made a correction to my post that may help. Thank you. I am running 102 fever and not thinking well. Thank you. I will comment further in future.

*****
Hi again! I am no doubt one of many, who have asked for the Lord's will to be done with the fever. Remember Hebrews 12:6 also tells us that we 'are received', huh?

Nevertheless, I think that this Falling Away needs to be clarified! Fall away from what? And it appears that to fall away, the one or the fold must be "IN CHRIST' Romans 8:1 to start with! And that is not the Abomination of the Earth ones! And 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3's ending, takes place before the next period of time takes place as I see it.

And about mistakes? I have no fever, yet I mis/speak at times as well. The only problem arises as I see it, is when we are to proud or Vain to retract the mistake. On this forum itself, we see people going from bad to even the worse! James 4:17 Known to be 'False doctrines' just keep on & on!

---John

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

*****
Hi again! I am no doubt one of many, who have asked for the Lord's will to be done with the fever. Remember Hebrews 12:6 also tells us that we 'are received', huh?

Nevertheless, I think that this Falling Away needs to be clarified! Fall away from what? And it appears that to fall away, the one or the fold must be "IN CHRIST' Romans 8:1 to start with! And that is not the Abomination of the Earth ones! And 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3's ending, takes place before the next period of time takes place as I see it.

And about mistakes? I have no fever, yet I mis/speak at times as well. The only problem arises as I see it, is when we are to proud or Vain to retract the mistake. On this forum itself, we see people going from bad to even the worse! James 4:17 Known to be 'False doctrines' just keep on & on!

---John

Dear John the baptist,

Yes, there are many false doctrines. Pauls clarifies a big one that the Apostacy> (defection of truth) and the revealing of the man of sin happens BEFORE we are gathered together or "caught-up" to meet Him in the air. This to me is a big one when it comes to proper sequence of this grand event.

 

[John the Baptist]

*****
Hi again! I am no doubt one of many, who have asked for the Lord's will to be done with the fever. Remember Hebrews 12:6 also tells us that we 'are received', huh?

Nevertheless, I think that this Falling Away needs to be clarified! Fall away from what? And it appears that to fall away, the one or the fold must be "IN CHRIST' Romans 8:1 to start with! And that is not the Abomination of the Earth ones! And 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3's ending, takes place before the next period of time takes place as I see it.

And about mistakes? I have no fever, yet I mis/speak at times as well. The only problem arises as I see it, is when we are to proud or Vain to retract the mistake. On this forum itself, we see people going from bad to even the worse! James 4:17 Known to be 'False doctrines' just keep on & on!

---John

Dear John the baptist,

Yes, there are many false doctrines. Pauls clarifies a big one that the Apostacy> (defection of truth) and the revealing of the man of sin happens BEFORE we are gathered together or "caught-up" to meet Him in the air. This to me is a big one when it comes to proper sequence of this grand event.

****
I agree! And the 3 angels of Revelation 14:6-10 does just that, huh?

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

Dear John the Baptist,

It appears that way doesn't it? Rapture AFTER the man of sin revealed and BEFORE God's Wrath (bowl judgements) are poured out and AFTER the gospel preached to the world. Look's biblical to me. :angel:

 

[John the Baptist]

Dear John the Baptist,

It appears that way doesn't it? Rapture AFTER the man of sin revealed and BEFORE God's Wrath (bowl judgements) are poured out and AFTER the gospel preached to the world. Look's biblical to me. :angel:

***
Final wrath is just that, as you say. There is a little time of trouble leading up to the 'end' wrath as I see it.
God states that there is no new thing, not that there is not going to be an end wrath, for He states that there is going to be. 7 Last Plagues.

We are now in the little time of trouble that keeps on excelling! This is what will cause the professed world Christians to UNITE on the Mark of the Beast. Beast as in Daniel 7 'beast' governments. Personally, I believe that it starts with the USA protestant Revelation 17:5 ones. From an Lamb to a dragon!

Anyhow: The only thing that they can ever have unity on is forced sun worship. Most already agree on that anyway! And because they do not have the power of Christ in their many folds, they need Caesar force! The same as it was with putting Christ to death. (Rome & God/less fold's)

OK: The reason for the final Religious Liberty cave/in?? We are having all hell starting to break loose... and we haven't seen anything yet! All of the professed Christians will do anything to have God give them an reprieve, except repent. And that is why we see some form of UNITY!

Oh' and this is what takes the pure Everlasting Gospel into the whole world. See the K.J. on Matthew 10:23 Starts in the USA and ends in the U.N. world court as a true world wide witness. Matthew 24:14's second time around. (repeated)

---John

 

[Vic C.]

A question

A question for JbFaith and JtBaptist (and anyone else that has an honest, sincere answer),

Revelation speaks of the Wrath coming twice:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (just prior to the Angelic trumpets)

and

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (just prior to the bowls)

The standard position of the Pre Wrath harpazio theory is to place The wrath of God (Day of the Lord) at the start of the Trumpets. We place the harpazio just before that; right before the seventh seal, where the "great mutitude" is in Rev 7:9.

Paul tells us:

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

In all three cases, Paul specifies wrath, but doesn't indicate which part of the wrath in Revelation.

I noticed the two of you agree that the Wrath in question is the one in Rev 15:1. Why here and not Rev 6:17?

That's my question.

Thanks,
Vic

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

Re: A question

A question for JbFaith and JtBaptist (and anyone else that has an honest, sincere answer),

Revelation speaks of the Wrath coming twice:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (just prior to the Angelic trumpets)

and

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (just prior to the bowls)

The standard position of the Pre Wrath harpazio theory is to place The wrath of God (Day of the Lord) at the start of the Trumpets. We place the harpazio just before that; right before the seventh seal, where the "great mutitude" is in Rev 7:9.

Paul tells us:

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

In all three cases, Paul specifies wrath, but doesn't indicate which part of the wrath in Revelation.

I noticed the two of you agree that the Wrath in question is the one in Rev 15:1. Why here and not Rev 6:17?

That's my question.

Thanks,
Vic

Hi vic,

Great question! First of all, I don't see any indication that the man of sin was revealed prior to Rev 6:17. You agreed that that must happen 1st. as the Apostle Paul indicated in 2 Thes 2:1-3. Next, the 7th or last trumpet hasn't sounded yet if you take what Jesus meant and Paul regarding the last trump as literal. My third point here is that the confirmation of the gospel being preached to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people didn't happen until Revelation 14:6 as Jesus also said in Matthew 24:14. These are just a few thoughts for us to consider. :fadein:

 

[John the Baptist]

Re: A question

A question for JbFaith and JtBaptist (and anyone else that has an honest, sincere answer),

****
Hay kid'o, John here :wink:, I always have honest replys at least with sincere posts! :fadein:
****

Revelation speaks of the Wrath coming twice:

Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand? (just prior to the Angelic trumpets)

***
See Joel 2:11 & Joel 2:31, Isaiah 13:6. Who shall be able to stand? See Nahum 1:6, Malachi 3:2, Luke 21:36
Rev. 7 breaks the question of 'seals' to present the answer of who will stand from it start to its finish! (notice that at the second coming of the Master, ALL the wicked will be dead for the 1000 year period!)
***

Rev 15:1 And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God. (just prior to the bowls)

***
Me again: I don't much follow the 'standard' as you know. (Arm of flesh)
Another? 'sign' See Revelation 12:1 into far-reaching effects.

Seven angels ? Revelation 1:11 Seven LAST plagues in Revelation 16. Yet remember that God tells us that these are the seven last ones! They have been seen before in history in similar strength.
***

The standard position of the Pre Wrath harpazio theory is to place The wrath of God (Day of the Lord) at the start of the Trumpets. We place the harpazio just before that; right before the seventh seal, where the "great mutitude" is in Rev 7:9.

Paul tells us:

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

1 Thess 1:10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

1 Thess 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

In all three cases, Paul specifies wrath, but doesn't indicate which part of the wrath in Revelation.

****
Revelation 14:10's Wrath? "Wine of the wrath is seen in Jeremiah 25:15 as to.. 'take the wine cup of this fury ... and cause [all] nations ... to drink it.'
****

I noticed the two of you agree that the Wrath in question is the one in Rev 15:1. Why here and not Rev 6:17?

****
Me again: Revelation 16:17 says, "For the great day of His wrath has come; and who shall be able to stand?" Are you asking (me) 'us' if we believe that this time period excelerats for a short duration? (a Start & a Finish? Surely!) Notice Revelation 7:3
What do you think that the ones in Revelation 17:5 need, only to break the USA constitution & force the 666 thing?

---John
****

That's my question.

Thanks,
Vic

 

[John the Baptist]

Quote:
"Great question! First of all, I don't see any indication that the man of sin was revealed prior to Rev 6:17. You agreed that that must happen 1st. as the Apostle Paul indicated in 2 Thes 2:1-3. Next, the 7th or last trumpet hasn't sounded yet if you take what Jesus meant and Paul regarding the last trump as literal. My third point here is that the confirmation of the gospel being preached to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people didn't happen until Revelation 14:6 as Jesus also said in Matthew 24:14. These are just a few thoughts for us to consider."

John here. I see it differently :wink: :fadein:.
The above Matthew 24:14 verse had reached it boundaries as was required for the first 'time' requirement. Romans 10:18 & [seconded] in Colossians 1:23

Surely Paul & crew were tested as to why Christ did not come??? And a real shaking, or falling away must have occurred? Such as the Seventh-day Adventist one of 1844, with only a remnant being left!

Anyway: We need the 'final' history documented by God to KNOW its END! :fadein:
Surely the ones who are to be saved in Rev. 7 understood and [BELIEVED] the Ecclesiastes 1:9-10 & Ecclesiastes 3:15 verses, huh?

---John

PS: How is the fever this morning? I have my mowing all done already!

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

Quote:
"

PS: How is the fever this morning? I have my mowing all done already![/b]

Dear John the Baptist,

Answer: 8-) Thank God for Advil.

 

[John the Baptist]

Quote:
"

PS: How is the fever this morning? I have my mowing all done already![/b]

Dear John the Baptist,

Answer: 8-) Thank God for Advil.

**
Hosea 4:6 K.J. huh,? :wink:
I 'ain't' of the J.W.'s

---John

 

[JustifiedByFaith]

[quote="John the Baptist":54bfd]Quote:
"

PS: How is the fever this morning? I have my mowing all done already![/b]

Dear John the Baptist,

Answer: 8-) Thank God for Advil.

**
Hosea 4:6 K.J. huh,? :wink:
I 'ain't' of the J.W.'s

---John[/quote:54bfd]

Dear John the Baptist,

I am happy to hear you are not J.W. I would hate to have to start another thread already... :bday:

 

[Vic C.]

Re: A question

I "see" you are feeling a little better. :angel:

Hi vic,

Great question! First of all, I don't see any indication that the man of sin was revealed prior to Rev 6:17. You agreed that that must happen 1st. as the Apostle Paul indicated in 2 Thes 2:1-3.

I do agree that must happen. I see the seals as an overview, an outline of the first few years of the final "week". We see the fifth seal as "midweek" and inline with Rev. 12. So that is where I place the revealing, resolving that issue. I posted a chart somewhere here, if you care to peruse my End Times posts. It was recently. I posted a similar chart below.

Next, the 7th or last trumpet hasn't sounded yet if you take what Jesus meant and Paul regarding the last trump as literal.

I do take it literally. In 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Paul mentions this trump is literally a Trump of God. Pauls mentions in 1 Corinthians 15:52 that this trump is the last Trump. Put both verses together and we have God blowing the Last Trump. This is alien to most who study End times, but if you consider there are three Trumps of God in Judaism, it all comes together.

This is one of my fav links explaining the three Trumps of God; it's explaination is short and sweet. Give it a read:

http://philologos.org/bpr/files/l002.htm

My third point here is that the confirmation of the gospel being preached to every nation, tribe, tongue, and people didn't happen until Revelation 14:6 as Jesus also said in Matthew 24:14. These are just a few thoughts for us to consider. :fadein:

I have come to the conclusion (and I'm not alone in this) that somewhere about Revelation 12, John backpedals to about midweek and continues in this vein until about Revelation 15, where he finally gets to the last of the Wrath, the bowls. I believe the bowls start very late in the week and "spill" over into the additional 30 days of Daniel 12.

Revelation 14:6: if we were to "overlay" chs. 12 thru 14 passage on 'top' or next to the fifth and sixth seals, we would "see" this:

It would be about the time we read of the 144,000 sealed, as they are mentioned again in Revelation 14:1-3, along with the "voice of many waters" (the Great multitude).

I hope I was clear and didn't confuse anyone. It may look like I'm rearranging Scripture, but once one realizes Rev 12-14 is a recap and expansion of things in previous Rev verses, it all becomes clearer... at least to me.

Look up the chronology of Revelation and see if you come up with the same thing I did concerning Rev 12-14.. Here is a chart that basically represents my timeline:

courtesy of Ted Montgomery

This is also a basic commentary of what I believe:

http://www.tedmontgomery.com/bblovrvw/R ... index.html

 

[John the Baptist]

John here. I see it differently. :wink:
The above Matthew 24:14 verse had reached it boundaries as was required for the first 'time' requirement. Romans 10:18 & [seconded] in Colossians 1:23

****

Are you both saying that Christ did come at this time, as He said that He would?? If not, where oh where is the EXTRA truth found in His Word???

---John