The false doctrine of the 'Secret Rapture'.

[Lloyd81]

Guys...

Let's not spend too much time arguing back and forth about who is right and wrong about Christ second coming. Why not focus on what we can do for God NOW? Sometimes we're looking so far ahead, we miss what's in front of us. Let us ALL trust God, put our absolute faith in Him, and he will deliver us the truth when the time comes.

It is good to be on guard as Jesus said, but we'll have a far better guard if our hearts are set on love, peace, forgiveness and trust at this very moment. The truth is to trust God, instead of trying to unravel every mystery ourself. Let us seek firstly to please God, allow His will to live through us so that our preperation will be perfect when the time comes. After all, if God wants to save us, then we will be saved, regardless if we've unravelled everything 'ourself'.

Our absolute faith must depend on God, always, throughout our entire life. Let's not lose focus on our goal. Our goal isn't to be saved, our goal is to love God. Let's make every effort everyday to do what God requires from us, and in the end, his grace will save you.

Trust, hope, and Love.

 

[jasoncran]

Guys...

Let's not spend too much time arguing back and forth about who is right and wrong about Christ second coming. Why not focus on what we can do for God NOW? Sometimes we're looking so far ahead, we miss what's in front of us. Let us ALL trust God, put our absolute faith in Him, and he will deliver us the truth when the time comes.

It is good to be on guard as Jesus said, but we'll have a far better guard if our hearts are set on love, peace, forgiveness and trust at this very moment. The truth is to trust God, instead of trying to unravel every mystery ourself. Let us seek firstly to please God, allow His will to live through us so that our preperation will be perfect when the time comes. After all, if God wants to save us, then we will be saved, regardless if we've unravelled everything 'ourself'.

Our absolute faith must depend on God, always, throughout our entire life. Let's not lose focus on our goal. Our goal isn't to be saved, our goal is to love God. Let's make every effort everyday to do what God requires from us, and in the end, his grace will save you.

Trust, hope, and Love.

:crazy amen.

 

[XTruth]

20 CONTRASTS BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND ADVENT

1. The rapture is a going up to heaven of all saved men of all past ages (John. 14:1-3; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), whereas the second advent is a coming down from heaven to earth of the same people (Rev. 19:11-21; Jude 14-15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 16:27; Mt 24:29-31; Mt 25:31-46; Zech. 14:1-9).

2. The rapture is a coming of Christ from heaven to the clouds (not to the earth) for the saints-both dead (who will be resurrected) and alive-to take them to heaven (1 Thess. 4:16), while the second advent is a coming from heaven with the previously raptured saints to set up a kingdom and rule eternally (Zech. 14:1-9; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11-21; Rev 22:4-5; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 25:31-46; Isa. 9:6-7; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-15,18,22,27; Lk. 1:32-36).

3. Our goal in the rapture is heaven to live with Christ in our mansions (John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8), while the goal in the second advent is to leave heaven for the earth to reign forever (Zech. 14; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11 - Rev 20:10).

4. At the rapture Christ does not come to destroy the Antichrist or any other wicked man but to remove the hinderer of lawlessness (the church, Chapter 10, Proof 1), so that the Antichrist can come (2 Thess. 2:7-8), while at the second advent Christ comes back to the earth with all saints of all ages to destroy Antichrist and multitudes of wicked men (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 7:11; Jude 14-15; Rev. 19:11-21; see also Mt. 24:37-42;Mt 25:31-46; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14).

5. At the rapture Christ comes from heaven to the clouds only (not to the earth) to take the good from among the bad (John. 5:28-29; John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:16-18; Jas. 5:7-8), while at the second advent-years later-He comes to the earth with His raptured saints to take the bad from among the good (Mt. 13:30,39-43,49-50;Mt 24:29-31,37-42; Jude 14-15; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14; Rev. 19:11-21).

6. At the rapture only those qualified for heaven will be raptured (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 20:4-6); only those who are born again will be changed from mortality to immortality and go to heaven. At the second advent, on the other hand, any and all men qualified to live on the earth as citizens will be permitted to continue as natural people into the next age, without any change from mortality to immortality (Mt. 25:31-46; Zech. 8:23;Zech 14:1-21; Isa. 2:2-4;Isa 66:19-21; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-14; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 2:27-28; Rev 11:15; Rev 20:4-6).

7. At the rapture there will be no battle of Armageddon (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16), while at the second advent Armageddon will be fought (Zech. 14; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Jude 14-15; Rev. 16:13-16; Rev 19:11-21; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39).

8. At the rapture there will be no change of home lands on earth among the nations (John. 14:1-3), while at the second advent there will be a general separation of nations back to their original home lands, including Israel (Isa. 11:11-12; Deut 32:8; Ezek. 37; Mt. 24:31; Acts 17:26).

9. At the rapture no man will be sent to hell, but all saints will be taken to heaven (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), while at the second advent millions of men will be sent to hell and none taken to heaven (Mt. 13:30,43-50;Mt 25:31-46; Isa. 14:9-15; Rev. 14:9-11; Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10).

10. At the rapture all saints will "escape all these things that shall come to pass" during the tribulation, and will "stand before the Son of man" (Lk. 21:34-36; John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 4:16;1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; see Chapter 10), whereas at the second advent no man who is subject to punishment will escape (Rev. 19:1-21; Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

11. The rapture will take place before the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:7-8) and before the tribulation and fulfillment of Rev. 4:1 - Rev 22:21, while the second advent will take place after these events (Mt. 24:29-31; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:11-21). See Chapter 10.

12. At the rapture there will be a resurrection of all the righteous dead (1 Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21), while at the second advent there will be no resurrection of any righteous man, for the first resurrection will then be over (Rev. 20:4-6).

13. At the time of the rapture no man on earth will know who the Antichrist is (2 Thess. 2:7-8), whereas at the second advent all men on earth in the civilized parts will know who he is (Rev. 13:16-18).

14. At the rapture the church and all others who are redeemed saints at that time will be presented to God in heaven (Eph. 5:27; 1 Thess. 3:13;1 Thess 5:23), while at the second advent all raptured saints will be presented to men on earth as their new rulers (Rev. 2:27; Rev 5:10; Rev 20:4-6; Dan. 7:9-27).

15. Before the rapture there will be no marriage supper of the Lamb, whereas just before the second advent there will be such a supper of Christ with all the redeemed of all ages past (Rev. 19:1-21).

16. There will be a seven-year period of tribulation after the rapture (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21), whereas there will be no tribulation at all after the second advent, for the second coming of Christ ends all tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; Rev. 19-20).

17. There will be no end of the world (age) at the time of the rapture, while the age will definitely end at the time of the second advent of Christ to the earth (Mt. 24:1-3,29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 19:1 - Rev 20:10).

18. The rapture is an event that can take place any day without any prophecy being fulfilled or any sign coming to pass (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:21; Tit. 2:13; 1 Thess. 1:10), while the second advent cannot take place until all of the predictions in Mt. 24 - Mt. 25; Mk 13; Lk. 21:1-11,25-33; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; and Rev. 4:1 - Rev 19:10 have been fulfilled.

19. There will be no reign of the Antichrist before the rapture, but there will be such a reign before the second advent (Dan. 9:27; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21).

20. There will be no martyrdoms of saints after the second advent, while there will be multitudes of martyrs after the rapture and between the time of the rapture and the second advent (Rev. 6:9-11; Rev 7:9-17; Rev 13:7; Rev 14:9-13; Rev 15:1-4; Rev 17:6; Rev 18:24; Rev 20:4-6).



We conclude then, that if the church and all other raptured saints are to eat a marriage supper with Christ in heaven (as in Rev. 19:1-10), which happens just before the second advent begins (as in Rev. 19:11-21), then the church cannot remain on earth through the tribulation period. It must arrive in heaven prior to the time of the second advent. Furthermore, if the saints are to leave with Christ at the second advent they must already be up in heaven before that time so as to be able to return with Him. And since the rapture can take place at any moment (as taught in 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Phil. 3:21 and Tit. 2:13)-since it could have happened even in Paul's day according to these passages of Scripture-then we can be certain that the rapture will not take place at a specified time as in the case of the second advent which is predicted to happen at a particular time-that is, at the end of the tribulation period (Mt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21). This, to us, is truly conclusive proof that the rapture of the church and O.T. saints will take place before the tribulation begins.



—Dake's Topics

 

[Hobie]

Matthew 27
The Crucifixion

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


At the death of Christ, many were raised to testify and show the power of God, and these who were resurrected, would they be left to die again. No, they were taken as the first fruits with Jesus, resurrected from the grave, just as he was, and we know of Elijah and Enoch, so there are saints in heaven now..

Hi Hobie :

Thanks for your comments, but I think you are fogetting something.

In Rev. 6:9 - "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held"

At best, you would be suggesting that the OT prophets were raised at this time, but there is no record of them going to heaven. On top of that, David should be included, but Peter made it perfectly clear that his grave is still with us - Acts 2:29 - 34 - "For David is not ascended into the heavens"

Now that is not the only thing you overlooked. In I Corinth. 15:20 and verse 23 we read that Jesus is the first fruits from the dead. This alone shows that your attempt here is fruitless and falls on its face.

Bless

Well if you read carefully it says first fruits, so here we have Christ and 'holy' people being resurrected, and we know there were others such as Enoch who were taken up, so we know there are some people there.

 

[Hobie]

20 CONTRASTS BETWEEN THE RAPTURE AND THE SECOND ADVENT

1. The rapture is a going up to heaven of all saved men of all past ages (John. 14:1-3; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), whereas the second advent is a coming down from heaven to earth of the same people (Rev. 19:11-21; Jude 14-15; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 16:27; Mt 24:29-31; Mt 25:31-46; Zech. 14:1-9).

2. The rapture is a coming of Christ from heaven to the clouds (not to the earth) for the saints-both dead (who will be resurrected) and alive-to take them to heaven (1 Thess. 4:16), while the second advent is a coming from heaven with the previously raptured saints to set up a kingdom and rule eternally (Zech. 14:1-9; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11-21; Rev 22:4-5; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Mt. 25:31-46; Isa. 9:6-7; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-15,18,22,27; Lk. 1:32-36).

3. Our goal in the rapture is heaven to live with Christ in our mansions (John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 2:19-20; 1 Thess 3:13; 1 Thess 4:13-18; 1 Thess 5:1-11,23; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; Col. 3:4; Jas. 5:7-8), while the goal in the second advent is to leave heaven for the earth to reign forever (Zech. 14; Jude 14-15; Rev. 11:15; Rev 19:11 - Rev 20:10).

4. At the rapture Christ does not come to destroy the Antichrist or any other wicked man but to remove the hinderer of lawlessness (the church, Chapter 10, Proof 1), so that the Antichrist can come (2 Thess. 2:7-8), while at the second advent Christ comes back to the earth with all saints of all ages to destroy Antichrist and multitudes of wicked men (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 7:11; Jude 14-15; Rev. 19:11-21; see also Mt. 24:37-42;Mt 25:31-46; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14).

5. At the rapture Christ comes from heaven to the clouds only (not to the earth) to take the good from among the bad (John. 5:28-29; John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:16-18; Jas. 5:7-8), while at the second advent-years later-He comes to the earth with His raptured saints to take the bad from among the good (Mt. 13:30,39-43,49-50;Mt 24:29-31,37-42; Jude 14-15; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39; Zech. 14; Rev. 19:11-21).

6. At the rapture only those qualified for heaven will be raptured (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 20:4-6); only those who are born again will be changed from mortality to immortality and go to heaven. At the second advent, on the other hand, any and all men qualified to live on the earth as citizens will be permitted to continue as natural people into the next age, without any change from mortality to immortality (Mt. 25:31-46; Zech. 8:23;Zech 14:1-21; Isa. 2:2-4;Isa 66:19-21; Dan. 2:44-45;Dan 7:9-14; 1 Cor. 15:24-28; Rev. 2:27-28; Rev 11:15; Rev 20:4-6).

7. At the rapture there will be no battle of Armageddon (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; 1 Thess. 4:16), while at the second advent Armageddon will be fought (Zech. 14; 2 Thess. 1:7-10; Jude 14-15; Rev. 16:13-16; Rev 19:11-21; Ezek. 38- Ezek. 39).

8. At the rapture there will be no change of home lands on earth among the nations (John. 14:1-3), while at the second advent there will be a general separation of nations back to their original home lands, including Israel (Isa. 11:11-12; Deut 32:8; Ezek. 37; Mt. 24:31; Acts 17:26).

9. At the rapture no man will be sent to hell, but all saints will be taken to heaven (John. 14:1-3; Lk. 21:34-36; 1 Thess. 4:16; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10), while at the second advent millions of men will be sent to hell and none taken to heaven (Mt. 13:30,43-50;Mt 25:31-46; Isa. 14:9-15; Rev. 14:9-11; Rev 19:20; Rev 20:10).

10. At the rapture all saints will "escape all these things that shall come to pass" during the tribulation, and will "stand before the Son of man" (Lk. 21:34-36; John. 14:1-3; 1 Thess. 4:16;1 Thess 5:1-11; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:1-10; see Chapter 10), whereas at the second advent no man who is subject to punishment will escape (Rev. 19:1-21; Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 1:7-10).

11. The rapture will take place before the revelation of the Antichrist (2 Thess. 2:7-8) and before the tribulation and fulfillment of Rev. 4:1 - Rev 22:21, while the second advent will take place after these events (Mt. 24:29-31; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 5:8-10; Rev 19:11-21). See Chapter 10.

12. At the rapture there will be a resurrection of all the righteous dead (1 Thess. 4:16; 1 Cor. 15:23,51-54; Phil. 3:21), while at the second advent there will be no resurrection of any righteous man, for the first resurrection will then be over (Rev. 20:4-6).

13. At the time of the rapture no man on earth will know who the Antichrist is (2 Thess. 2:7-8), whereas at the second advent all men on earth in the civilized parts will know who he is (Rev. 13:16-18).

14. At the rapture the church and all others who are redeemed saints at that time will be presented to God in heaven (Eph. 5:27; 1 Thess. 3:13;1 Thess 5:23), while at the second advent all raptured saints will be presented to men on earth as their new rulers (Rev. 2:27; Rev 5:10; Rev 20:4-6; Dan. 7:9-27).

15. Before the rapture there will be no marriage supper of the Lamb, whereas just before the second advent there will be such a supper of Christ with all the redeemed of all ages past (Rev. 19:1-21).

16. There will be a seven-year period of tribulation after the rapture (2 Thess. 2:7-8; Dan. 9:27; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21), whereas there will be no tribulation at all after the second advent, for the second coming of Christ ends all tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31;Mt 25:31-46; Rev. 19-20).

17. There will be no end of the world (age) at the time of the rapture, while the age will definitely end at the time of the second advent of Christ to the earth (Mt. 24:1-3,29-31;Mt 25:31-46; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 19:1 - Rev 20:10).

18. The rapture is an event that can take place any day without any prophecy being fulfilled or any sign coming to pass (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:21; Tit. 2:13; 1 Thess. 1:10), while the second advent cannot take place until all of the predictions in Mt. 24 - Mt. 25; Mk 13; Lk. 21:1-11,25-33; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; and Rev. 4:1 - Rev 19:10 have been fulfilled.

19. There will be no reign of the Antichrist before the rapture, but there will be such a reign before the second advent (Dan. 9:27; 2 Thess. 2:7-8; Rev. 6:1 - Rev 19:21).

20. There will be no martyrdoms of saints after the second advent, while there will be multitudes of martyrs after the rapture and between the time of the rapture and the second advent (Rev. 6:9-11; Rev 7:9-17; Rev 13:7; Rev 14:9-13; Rev 15:1-4; Rev 17:6; Rev 18:24; Rev 20:4-6).



We conclude then, that if the church and all other raptured saints are to eat a marriage supper with Christ in heaven (as in Rev. 19:1-10), which happens just before the second advent begins (as in Rev. 19:11-21), then the church cannot remain on earth through the tribulation period. It must arrive in heaven prior to the time of the second advent. Furthermore, if the saints are to leave with Christ at the second advent they must already be up in heaven before that time so as to be able to return with Him. And since the rapture can take place at any moment (as taught in 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Phil. 3:21 and Tit. 2:13)-since it could have happened even in Paul's day according to these passages of Scripture-then we can be certain that the rapture will not take place at a specified time as in the case of the second advent which is predicted to happen at a particular time-that is, at the end of the tribulation period (Mt. 24:29-31; Rev. 19:11-21). This, to us, is truly conclusive proof that the rapture of the church and O.T. saints will take place before the tribulation begins.



—Dake's Topics

You've mixed truth with error, there is no such thing as the rapture or secret rapture, Christ comes at the Second Coming, showing Himself so all the world can see. To say He comes in secret or 'raptures' a few is to open yourself and others to 'false christs' which can show signs and wonders from the power of Satan to fool the people, but the Second Coming is something Satan cannot and will not be able to duplicate, and scripture decribes it thouroughly so no one need be tricked or fooled if they have a ear and hear or have eyes and see...

 

[Mysteryman]

Matthew 27
The Crucifixion

50And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit.

51At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. 52The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. 53They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.


At the death of Christ, many were raised to testify and show the power of God, and these who were resurrected, would they be left to die again. No, they were taken as the first fruits with Jesus, resurrected from the grave, just as he was, and we know of Elijah and Enoch, so there are saints in heaven now..

Hi Hobie :

Thanks for your comments, but I think you are fogetting something.

In Rev. 6:9 - "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held"

At best, you would be suggesting that the OT prophets were raised at this time, but there is no record of them going to heaven. On top of that, David should be included, but Peter made it perfectly clear that his grave is still with us - Acts 2:29 - 34 - "For David is not ascended into the heavens"

Now that is not the only thing you overlooked. In I Corinth. 15:20 and verse 23 we read that Jesus is the first fruits from the dead. This alone shows that your attempt here is fruitless and falls on its face.

Bless

Well if you read carefully it says first fruits, so here we have Christ and 'holy' people being resurrected, and we know there were others such as Enoch who were taken up, so we know there are some people there.

Hi Hobie:

You are totally guessing here. Or more appropiately, you are privately interpreting scripture !

It states in the gospels, that the graves were open after his death. Not upon his resurrection. Matthew 27:52 and 53. Nor does it mention that they ascended up into heaven.

No Hobie, Corinthians tells us that Jesus was the first fruits , not the second or fiftieth fruit , or 500th fruit. Nor does it say he was the fruit of many at the same time. When Jesus ascended up into heaven, he ascended up alone, just him and no one else !

I Corinth. 15:23 - "But every man in his own order : Christ the firstfruits; afterwards (meaning after Christ ) they that are Christ's at his coming"

No man has ascended up to heaven , except he who came down from heaven . < John 3:13. Which means that your understanding of Elijah and Enoch is just misunderstood by you. In the Word of God, there is heaven, and there are heavens. We can discuss this if you would be interested.

You Hobie, have the OT saints being ascended into heaven and the graves being opened , and they being resurrected from the dead and ascending into heaven before Christ. And Christ is the "firstfruits", Hobie , not the latter fruits !

So the truth is Hobie, is that you have no idea who those are, that are under the altar, do you ?

Also, if Elijah and Enoch and others as your presume have ascended into heaven. You still have not answered to the fact, that King David is still dead and has not ascended up into heaven. So why others, and not David ?

The answers you give me continually go against and contradict scripture. At this point in time, the only one who has ascended up into heaven, is he who came down from heaven. As he was the firstfruits.

So now this leaves us with only one alternative. Those under the altar are the saints, the body of Christ, who have been gathered up just prior to the tribulation of God. That which takes place, just before the opening of the sixth seal, which starts the tribulation of God !

Bless

 

[Vic C.]

1st Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Once again to get the pretrib rapture from this verse you must assume that the wrath is the tribulation, and our salvation is the rapture. Our Salvation is Jesus Christ, not the rapture, and we are saved from Hell, not the tribulation. This verse has been grossly misrepresented by the pretrib supporters.
Let me ask this, if our salvation is from the tribulation, what about the tribulational saints? If they are saved by the same blood of Christ as we are, then why are they not ''raptured'' the moment of their salvations, why are they appointed to wrath? If we are not appointed to wrath then no believer of any age is appointed to wrath. It is obvious that this verse has nothing to do with the rapture, tribulation ect...

The "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus taught is NOT His time of wrath upon the wicked. Christ's wrath is what ends the great tribulation upon the saints, not causes it.

And Christ's coming will NOT be secret, because "the thief in the night" idea Paul taught is about how the deceived will be suddenly surprised at His coming....

I agree with Watchman and Vet... and Hobie's condoning of the same. :yes

The very first time someone suggested to me the there is a Biblical difference between Tribulation and Wrath. I did not dismiss it as false; I put aside my presuppositions and went to the Scriptures. I came out of the study understanding that Tribulation and Wrath were/are indeed different.

Plus, what make tribulation Great, as in Great Tribulation, is not a shift in who causes tribulation or it's intensity, but instead it defines the "scope", the size of this particular tribulation. After all, we've been in tribulation for thousands of years.

 

[n2thelight]

The problem I see is that most people don't understand what the tribulation is all about.....Ive said it before and now I say it again,it's all about deception.....

Matthew 24:4
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

Matthew 24:5
For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.


Matthew 24:11
And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.


Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.


2 Thessalonians 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The above verse could not be any clearer in declaring that there will be no rapture...Don't know why it's so hard for people to follow the subject....

II Thessalonians 2:1
"Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,"

This is the subject,our gathering back to Christ,as you should see from verse 3,it does not and will not happen until after satan is revealed,so how rapturist say they will be gone while the antichrist(satan)is here,is beyond me...

Now do pay attention to how he comes

It is written that antichrist comes in peacefully and prosperously and will destroy wonderfully {Dan 8:24}, and that he corrupts by flatteries {Dan 11:32}. Now that is pure evil genius, a 'destroying wonderfully':

Dan 8:23-25
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up [antichrist/satan].
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people. [end time Christians ON EARTH!]
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand. (KJV)

Dan 11:32
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God [faithful end time Christians ON EARTH] shall be strong, and do exploits. (KJV)

Satan is coming as an impostor to Christ, he cannot be outwardly evil acting and still deceive anyone. Satan is not interested in killing your body, what does that gain him? He knows that when he gets here he has but a short time {Rev 12:12}, so killing a body that is going to be discarded in a matter of months at the Second Advent means nothing to satan. But satan knows about the eternal body residing in the flesh body (the true teaching of {1st Cor 15:35-52}), it is that which satan seeks to destroy - our souls in Hell! He will attempt to deceive God's Christians into worshiping him (satan/antichrist). Satan already has a lot of the other heathen and pagans, but the Christian, that's his mark! He knows that he cannot torture you into following him, but he can deceive you into it.

All those who are deceived won't know it until the true Christ comes,in which time shall be to late...


Luke 23:30
"Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, `Fall on us; and to the hills, `Cover us.' "

At that moment in time, when the seventh trump sounds and all flesh is done away and changed into the new incorruptible bodies, they will know that they have been deceived. Most Christians will truly love Jesus Christ, but they listened to these liars, those that came saying they were of Christ, but gave them doctrines of demons. The rapture doctrine is a lie, you are not going to fly out off this earth, except if you have died and pass on. Then instantly your soul will be in the presence of the Lord. If you truly believe that you will not see Satan, and that you will escape that hour of tribulation and testing by Satan, than you have take Satan's number, to become part of that great harlot church of the end times.

Revelation 6:14 "And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places."

At Jesus Christ's return their will be a mighty shaking. Those mountains are nations, and they will not be moved, but removed and not exist as governing bodies. There will be only Christ's Kingdom left on this earth, as we move into the Millennium age of Christ's kingdom.

Revelation 6:15 "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;"

All mankind except God's "elect", the remnant, and the 144,000 of chapter seven, will be part of Satan's [Antichrist's] kingdom. When the rest of the Christians see our Lord Jesus Christ coming, they will all know immediately what they have done. Then the shame will be great, to the point of killing themselves, if it were possible. But it will not be possible for all souls will be changed into their incorruptible bodies at the coming of Christ. I Corinthians 15:50-54 reveals that no flesh and blood can nor will exist at that time, nor will any of the things dealing with the flesh body exist.

Revelation 6:16 "And said to the mountains and the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:"

This bears repeating, but if you simply can not understand that the Antichrist comes first, before Jesus Christ's return, you will worship the Antichrist as the true Christ. This verse is describing how you will feel when you see the true Christ at the seventh trumpet. The fear will be so great that it will be a terror to your mind for the sins that you have committed in worshipping the false christ.

Revelation 6:17 "For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"

 

[johnny botwright]

Richard wurmbrand used to take, new christain converts, those thinking of becoming a believer, to zoo, and explained early believers in Jesus, were thrown to lions, burnt at the stake, put in gladiatior rings.

the price they paid for following Jesus.
and were they sure, they wanted to also follow Jesus.?
richard wurmbrand, later detained for his faith in Jesus,
spent three and a half years in solidary confinement,
13 years in a work labour camp.
would you be ready to die for your faith,

when the cockrell crows?
johnny

 

[Mysteryman]

[quote="watchman F":3qgq6jpg]1st Thessalonians 5:9 For God has not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.
Once again to get the pretrib rapture from this verse you must assume that the wrath is the tribulation, and our salvation is the rapture. Our Salvation is Jesus Christ, not the rapture, and we are saved from Hell, not the tribulation. This verse has been grossly misrepresented by the pretrib supporters.
Let me ask this, if our salvation is from the tribulation, what about the tribulational saints? If they are saved by the same blood of Christ as we are, then why are they not ''raptured'' the moment of their salvations, why are they appointed to wrath? If we are not appointed to wrath then no believer of any age is appointed to wrath. It is obvious that this verse has nothing to do with the rapture, tribulation ect...

The "great tribulation" our Lord Jesus taught is NOT His time of wrath upon the wicked. Christ's wrath is what ends the great tribulation upon the saints, not causes it.

And Christ's coming will NOT be secret, because "the thief in the night" idea Paul taught is about how the deceived will be suddenly surprised at His coming....

I agree with Watchman and Vet... and Hobie's condoning of the same. :yes

The very first time someone suggested to me the there is a Biblical difference between Tribulation and Wrath. I did not dismiss it as false; I put aside my presuppositions and went to the Scriptures. I came out of the study understanding that Tribulation and Wrath were/are indeed different.

Plus, what make tribulation Great, as in Great Tribulation, is not a shift in who causes tribulation or it's intensity, but instead it defines the "scope", the size of this particular tribulation. After all, we've beem in tribulation for thousands of years.[/quote:3qgq6jpg]


Hi Vic :

There is no such thing as a general term for the word "tribulation". There is however a general understanding of the meaning of what the word tribulation means.

There has always been tribulation since the fall of man . The tribulation we live in now is the tribulation of this world.

But the tribulation spoken about which pertains to the tribulation of/from God, is not the tribulation of this world, but he tribulation of/from God.

The tribulation of/from God is also the wrath of God. There is no difference !

Where there is a difference, is when the Word speaks about the "great tribulation". This is the same tribulation of/from God, but now it is speaking about all the destruction that God brings upon this earth . Its the same tribulation, but it is the full release of the wrath of God that makes it the great tribulation. Its like being in stages, like an earth quake. You can have a tremor, which is a very small earth quake, but nonetheless, it is still an earth quake. Then you can have a super earth quake, which we would describe as a "great" earth quake.

The tribulation of/from God, is no different. The tribulation of/from God, is liken unto the tremor. This is what occurs after the opening of the sixth seal - Rev. 6:12. We read about there being a great earthquake in verse 12. As this is the wrath of God, which is also the tribulation of/from God. The great earthquake is still liken unto a tremor. We continue to read in Rev. 7:1 and 2 the four angels preparing to release the wrath of/from God upon this earth.

After the sixth seal is finished, the opening of the seventh seal brings about the release of the full wrath of God upon the earth and all of its inhabitants. This is called, the great tribulation period. The great tribulation period is a continuation of the tribulation period. This is still the tribulation of/from God, continued. But now the full wrath of God is released.

So, as long as we are talking about the tribulation of/from God, there is no difference between the wrath of God and the tribulation of/from God. Like I have already stated, there is a differnce between the wrath of God and the full wrath of God, which is called the great tribulation.

 

[Vic C.]

But the tribulation spoken about which pertains to the tribulation of/from God, is not the tribulation of this world, but he tribulation of/from God.

The tribulation of/from God is also the wrath of God. There is no difference !

That is your understanding. My understanding after studying tribulation and wrath in the Bible revealed something different.

Tribulation occurs in the OT just two times:

Deu 4:30, Judg 10:14, Sam 26:24.

Wrath occurs in the OT 151 times and a majority of the passages referring to God's wrath.

Tribulation occurs 19 times in the NT and wrath 47 times. Lets take Mat 24:29 for instance:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

You will notice some cosmic events happening after the tribulation.

Now find passages in which similar cosmic events take place. Joel 2:31 is a good example:

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

It says, "... before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."

Joel 3:14-15 and Rev 6:12, 17 have a very similar order of events; first the cosmic and natural disastrous events, followed by God's wrath. Follow this line of threading scripture and you will see that Tribulation and Wrath are two separate events. You must do it objectively though and not be influenced by current beliefs. Only then will you see what others have had revealed to them also. :yes

 

[Vic C.]

One more thing:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

If it is as you believe, then God is killing HIS own believers with HIS Wrath. That is completely contrary to Scripture.

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
( ^ key verse )

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Vic : "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

You will notice some cosmic events happening after the tribulation.
----------------------------

Hi Vic :

Are you reading this correctly ?

The tribulation here is the tribulation of this world. Once the tribulatin of those days of this world , the sun will be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars fall from heaven etc.

God is the cause of these so called cosmic events. As you pointed out, they were prophesied in the OT. God always brings to pass the prophesies spoken by his Prophets.

We do indeed see the wrath of God in the OT. But this wrath is just a prelude to his wrath after the opening of the sixth seal. Remember also, that the seals are revealings in themselves.

Bless

 

[Mysteryman]

One more thing:

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

If it is as you believe, then God is killing HIS own believers with HIS Wrath. That is completely contrary to Scripture.

1 Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
( ^ key verse )

Hi Vic :

Those under the altar are those who have been gathered up. They are gathered up prior to the opening of the sixth seal, which is the start of the tribulation of God. So the church is not here upon this earth upon the opening of the sixth seal. So I Thess. 5:9 holds true.

 

[Mysteryman]

But the tribulation spoken about which pertains to the tribulation of/from God, is not the tribulation of this world, but he tribulation of/from God.

The tribulation of/from God is also the wrath of God. There is no difference !

That is your understanding. My understanding after studying tribulation and wrath in the Bible revealed something different.

Tribulation occurs in the OT just two times:

Deu 4:30, Judg 10:14, Sam 26:24.

Wrath occurs in the OT 151 times and a majority of the passages referring to God's wrath.

Tribulation occurs 19 times in the NT and wrath 47 times. Lets take Mat 24:29 for instance:

[quote:9yh04yc0] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

You will notice some cosmic events happening after the tribulation.

Now find passages in which similar cosmic events take place. Joel 2:31 is a good example:

Joel 2:31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.

It says, "... before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come."

Joel 3:14-15 and Rev 6:12, 17 have a very similar order of events; first the cosmic and natural disastrous events, followed by God's wrath. Follow this line of threading scripture and you will see that Tribulation and Wrath are two separate events. You must do it objectively though and not be influenced by current beliefs. Only then will you see what others have had revealed to them also. :yes[/quote:9yh04yc0]

Hi Vic :

I wanted to comment on Joel 2:31 seperate from my other comments.

The words - "the great and terrible day of the Lord" indicates the "great tribulation . All this is telling us, is that the tribulation will become the great tribulation. Same tribulation, as it is the tribulation of God, but after a time, the tribulation becomes the great tribulation. Notice as I have already pointed out, that in Rev. 7:1 - 3 that the angels were in place to hurt the earth, but God by way of an angel, told these four angels not to hurt the earth. At this point, the tribulation of God has started, which can be seen by reading Rev. 6:12 - 17. Here is one thing I always have found interesting. The kings and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves if fear of the tribulation of God, and thought this was the great day that had been prophesied by Joel. Indeed it was the tribulation of God which caused these cosmic events, but it was not yet the great day that was still future.

 

[veteran]

The "great tribulation" is a time of persecution of God's people that happens prior to Christ's coming to gather His saints. God's cup of wrath happens later, at Christ's coming, and is poured out upon the wicked. There are many Scriptures to back that up.

Daniel 12:1 calls that great tribulation a "time of trouble" that is to happen upon God's people, and that it will be a level of persecution that has never been the likes on earth before, and never will be again.

The false Pre-Trib "secret rapture" doctrine is one of the false doctrines that tries to teach the "great tribulation" is God's cup of wrath. It's so the deceived on that false doctrine will believe the lie they'll be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation. Thus believing the tribulation is God's cup of wrath is yet another lie created by the Pre-Trib false prophets to deceive with, and goes completely contrary to God's Word.

"Those that cannot be counseled cannot be helped." - Benjamin Franklin

 

[Vic C.]

Those under the alter represent those who have died throughout the ages at the hands of the adversary, i.e. through tribulation and persecution. They are not dead by the hands of God, therefore it is not His Wrath.

It is as clear as a blue sky on a sunny day.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

This is from tribulation, not wrath; they are different events.

Yes, I am reading it correctly and very clearly. What transpires post cosmic signs is The Day of the Lord, aka, The Wrath of God... Not to be confused with the tribulation brought against the people of God by the world and it's "adversarial" leader(s). Tribulation in the Bible= from the world and the Wrath in the Bible= From God.

I agree with Vet. There are ample amount of passages that teach us tribulation and wrath are not one in the same. I have studied the seven year futurist position for years. What is skewing your view is placing the Tribulation at Rev. 6:17 when scripture clearly states the Wrath has come. In the future seven year view, the first four or five seals make up, at the very least, the first three 1/2 half years.

From the futurists POV, this is very plausible. What isn't plausible is dismissing the seals as being part of the 70th. week. You just can't have tribulation nor wrath at the beginning of the 70th week. In the futurist view, you have Paul telling us it starts out with peace and safety and a falling away from sound doctrine as they walk around in pseudo-confidence thinking all is well.

Just be ready. Persecution can come down on you any time and in any form and maybe even from the most unlikely sources too. Just be ready and watching and remember to be of good cheer because He has overcome the worst the world can dish out. :amen

 

[Mysteryman]

Those under the alter represent those who have died throughout the ages at the hands of the adversary, i.e. through tribulation and persecution. They are not dead by the hands of God, therefore it is not His Wrath.

It is as clear as a blue sky on a sunny day.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

This is from tribulation, not wrath; they are different events.

Yes, I am reading it correctly and very clearly. What transpires post cosmic signs is The Day of the Lord, aka, The Wrath of God... Not to be confused with the tribulation brought against the people of God by the world and it's "adversarial" leader(s). Tribulation in the Bible= from the world and the Wrath in the Bible= From God.

I agree with Vet. There are ample amount of passages that teach us tribulation and wrath are not one in the same. I have studied the seven year futurist position for years. What is skewing your view is placing the Tribulation at Rev. 6:17 when scripture clearly states the Wrath has come. In the future seven year view, the first four or five seals make up, at the very least, the first three 1/2 half years.

From the futurists POV, this is very plausible. What isn't plausible is dismissing the seals as being part of the 70th. week. You just can't have tribulation nor wrath at the beginning of the 70th week. In the futurist view, you have Paul telling us it starts out with peace and safety and a falling away from sound doctrine as they walk around in pseudo-confidence thinking all is well.

Just be ready. Persecution can come down on you any time and in any form and maybe even from the most unlikely sources too. Just be ready and watching and remember to be of good cheer because He has overcome the worst the world can dish out. :amen

Hi Vic :

I would like to clear something up .

When were those who are under the altar resurrected ?

Thanks

 

[johnny botwright]

would not those clothed in white, slain for the word of God , be those slain during the great tribulation,
the anti christ is given authority to make war with the saints, and over come them,

they are tolled to wait until the full number of their brethren are slain, so its open season on the church, christains,

do some of whats mean mentioned before, apply just to christains, and some scriptures make reference, to Gods people the Jews,Israel. who will be saved,

when references are made to the saints, Gods people, those who have come out of the great tribulation.

a good discussion, what is needed now, is a clear as possable conclusion, so peoples understanding, of coming events, and just what they are going to be up agaisnt can be known, people can prepare accordingly, if the church is going through the biggest battle , stand of its history, people will have to prepare, differently than they would, if they had believed as all hell brakes lose, they are taken out, raptured,
so if the facts can be condenced as it were. people will know where they stand and what to expect.

some more thoughts, thinking out loud. from the scriptures you have put forward, we see those who will not take the mark of the beast, being slain.

so can we presume this is speaking of christains, of course there will be others.

or is this talking of the jews Israel, ?



when it is said satan, the anti christ is given authority to make war with the saints and over come them again the church, or Israel?



those clothed in white, are they those slain during the great tribulation, which is still taken place, and more will follow, again the church, Christains or Israel, Jews.



we see when Jesus returns the elect are gathered, those that remain, are caught up into the air, to meet with the Lord.



so some say a seven year tribulation, that is shortened, to three and a half years,



so some christains make it through this three and a half year tribulation, though we see, those who have not taken the mark of the beast , hunted down and killed, beheaded.



this being the case, unable to buy and sell, should not the church, christains be preparing, while they have the light, oppurtunity,

as darkness will come when no man can work.



as those in the ruling elite pyramid are preparing and completing their under ground bases, with growing faciitys,

should not christians be doing some thing simular, the early church went under ground, like wise in China , Russia, the eastern block, in more recent times.



making provision to sustain themselves. farming, food stores, shelters, safe houses, sancturys ect.



johnny

 

[johnny botwright]

is this the church, raptured into heaven? revelations chapter 7


After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands, and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"


who are they clothed in white who have been slain.? the martyrs chapter 6



just going to squeeze the orange some more to see if we can get a little more juice out of it.


There are two schools of thought, there are Christians who believe they will be spared the tribulation, and the rapture will take place before the tribulation.


This being the case, could the rapture, happen today?


if so as many that can be saved need to be saved in time and not left behind!


For those who feel the church will go through the tribulation, how should the church, Christians be, preparing for this time.?

Practically as well as spiritually.?

If some will remain until the Lord Jesus returns.



Joseph was shown a fat cow and a lean cow, and had seven years to prepare, for seven years of famine.

Should the church be taking the same approach, how long is there to prepare, ?

How long will the tribulation last, ?

How will Christains sustain themselves through the tribulation, if for example they cannot buy or sell?



could the answer to how we should prepare for the time of the tribulation is in the Joseph story as you say: When Joseph spoke to Pharoah he was basically evangelizing to the Egyptians, telling them about the God whom his family worshipped, and in a sense he converted Egypt. Likewise, Jonah converted Assyria so that when Israel was exiled, they could be kept safe because there would be some in Assyria who knew about Jonah's message and would treat Israel well.

Similarly, it may be that the preaching/ witness of Daniel to the Persians led to their being treated well by that nation.

I wonder if this can help answer the question. safe havens.? whatever this would entail.



The church Christians need to be at least one step ahead , not two behind. ?

we are not going to be shown any favour from the anti christ.



johnny