The fate of the unsaved

[TimothyW]

53 Passages proving that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says, continued:

26
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

27
Psalm 1:4-6
Not so the wicked!
They are like chaff
that the wind blows away.
Therefore the wicked will not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the assembly of the righteous.
For the LORD watches over the way of the righteous,
but the way of the wicked leads to destruction.

28
Psalm 2:11-12
Serve the LORD with fear
and celebrate his rule with trembling.
Kiss his son, or he will be angry
and your way will lead to your destruction,

29
Psalm 5:6
you destroy those who tell lies.

30
Psalm 9:3
My enemies turn back;
they stumble and perish before you.

31
Psalm 9:5
You have rebuked the nations and destroyed the wicked;
you have blotted out their name for ever and ever.

32
Psalm 9:6
even the memory of them has perished.

33
Psalm 21:9
When you appear for battle,
you will burn them up as in a blazing furnace.
The LORD will swallow them up in his wrath,
and his fire will consume them.

34
Psalm 34:16
but the face of the LORD is against those who do evil,
to blot out their name from the earth.

35
Psalm 36:12
See how the evildoers lie fallen—
thrown down, not able to rise!

36
Psalm 37:1-2
Do not fret because of those who are evil
or be envious of those who do wrong;
for like the grass they will soon wither,
like green plants they will soon die away.

37
Psalm 37:9
For those who are evil will be destroyed,

38
Psalm 37:20
But the wicked will perish:
Though the LORD’s enemies are like the flowers of the field,
they will be consumed, they will go up in smoke.

39
Psalm 37:22
those he curses will be destroyed

40
Psalm 37:28
Wrongdoers will be completely destroyed

41
Psalm 37:34
when the wicked are destroyed, you will see it.

42
Psalm 37:38
But all sinners will be destroyed;
there will be no future for the wicked.

43
Malachi 4:1-3
For behold, the day is coming, burning like a furnace; and all the arrogant and every evildoer will be chaff; and the day that is coming will set them ablaze,” says the LORD of hosts, “so that it will leave them neither root nor branch.” “But for you who fear My name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings; and you will go forth and skip about like calves from the stall. You will tread down the wicked, for they will be ashes under the soles of your feet on the day which I am preparing,” says the LORD of hosts.

44
Isaiah 66:16
For the LORD will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the LORD will be many.

45 and 46
Genesis 2:17 and 3:19
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die...
And to dust you shall return. (Genesis 5:5 Adam lived 930 years, and then he died.)

47
Psalm 49:12-14
But man in his pomp will not endure;
He is like the beasts that perish.
This is the way of those who are foolish,
And of those after them who approve their words.
As sheep they are appointed for Sheol;
Death shall be their shepherd;
And the upright shall rule over them in the morning,
And their form shall be for Sheol to consume
So that they have no habitation.

48
Psalm 50:22
Now consider this, you who forget God,
Or I will tear you in pieces, and there will be none to deliver.

49
Psalm 54:5
He will recompense the evil to my foes;
Destroy them in Your faithfulness.

50
Psalm 56:13
For You have delivered my soul from death,
Indeed my feet from stumbling,
So that I may walk before God
In the light of the living.

51
2 Corinthians 15-16
For we are a fragrance of Christ to God among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing; to the one an aroma from death to death, to the other an aroma from life to life.

52
for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.
2 Cor 3:6

53
2 Cor 7:10
For the sorrow that is according to the will of God produces a repentance without regret, leading to salvation, but the sorrow of the world produces death.


There is a mountain of scripture that says that the lost perish, are destroyed, and go to their deaths, and only those in Christ receive eternal life.
There is not a single verse in the entire Bible that says that the lost go to Hell when they die where they are tormented alive for all eternity.
Not one verse says it, and the Bible as a whole does not support Eternal Conscious Torment.

 

[th1b.taylor]

What do you you believe is the fate of the unsaved?

1. Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell.
2. They perish and are not conscious of eternal torment in Hell
3. Everyone is eventually saved.

What scriptures support your belief?
(Let's all be kind to one another)

I have tried often to see folks understand that the basics of anything is essential to find truth and yet, I fight a losing battle. I am, though, in good company, my LORD taught this and they murdered Him, Paul taught this and they tried many times before they managed to murder him, the same is true of Stephen, John, James and on and on.

If any man draws a scripture, a group of scripture or even a hand full of scripture from the Holy Word of God and creating a Theological Statement that excludes the rest of scripture is the creation of Heresy and may cause the Eternal Damnation of many.

Any denial of the Eternal Damnation, clearly, taught in the Bible falls into that realm and is so very dangerous. Please, understand, what we post on the Internet is also eternal.

(WOW!! Did he really say that?) Yep! Never mind the truth that all we post is recorded and stored in that, incredibly, huge storage facility the NSA has, still, partially, under construction that we have all, now, forgotten, God does not forget except He makes a conscious decision to do so.

And before we post anything, think. I was called, of God, to teach and I fought against God for, almost, thirty years before I accepted the harsher Judgment of a Teacher for my own but are you, really ready to accept it? When you or I post anything on the Web we are teaching somebody, mean to or not.

Remember that Man's Law is based, no matter how loosely, on God's Law and the six hundred and three examples of how to administer it. Now, remember the speeding ticket you, like I, had to pay in spite of the fact that you did not see the Speed Limit Sign?

Let's, all of us, stop carving the Word of God into snack sized pieces so we can mold it into our, personal preference.

 

[th1b.taylor]

And herein lies one of the main problems in discussions of biblical interpretation. People want to just pick a verse or two, or more, and pit them against other verses. But that simply is not how proper biblical interpretation is done. A proper understanding on any biblical subject must take into account all that Scripture states on that matter, and then provide a coherent understanding. Having said that, I believe there are problems with every position on hell that I know of.

I am not going to post anything on the matter as people need to do proper study. I am not going to do it for them.

Thank you Free. I would have beaten you to the post but I needed to sit up and take care of myself. I would give so much for people to stop this, ugly, practice.

 

[TimothyW]

Thanks Bill. That is why I back up everything I say with scripture.What I say is of no importance, but what God says in His Word is of paramount importance.
"The grass withers, the flower fades,
but the word of our God will stand forever."
Isaiah 40:8

What I type in the internet will wither and fade like grass or flowers. But the word of our God will stand forever.

 

[turnorburn]

The Unbeliever's Unhappy Condition

"He that believed, not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."—John 3:36.

HIS IS A PART of a discourse by John the Baptist. We have not many sermons by that mighty preacher, but we have just sufficient to prove that he knew how to lay the axe at the root of the tree by preaching the law of God most unflinchingly; and also that he knew how to declare the gospel, for no one could have uttered sentences which more clearly contain the way of salvation than those in the text before us. Indeed, this third chapter of the gospel according to the evangelist John is notable among clear and plain Scriptures—notable for being yet clearer and plainer than almost any other. John the Baptist was evidently a preacher who knew how to discriminate—a point in which so many fail—he separated between the precious and the vile, and therefore he was as God's mouth to the people. He does not address them as all lost nor as all saved, but he shows the two classes, he keeps up the line of demarcation between him that feareth God and him that feareth him not. He plainly declares the privileges of the believer, he saith he hath even now eternal life; and with equal decision he testifies to the sad state of the unbeliever​

—"he shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

John the Baptist might usefully instruct many professedly Christian preachers. Although he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than John the Baptist, and ought, therefore, more clearly to bear witness to the truth; yet, there are many who muddle the gospel, who teach philosophy, who preach a mingle-mangle, which is neither law nor gospel; and these might well go to school to this rough preacher of the wilderness, and learn from him how to cry, "Behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world." I desire this morning to take a leaf out of the Baptist's lesson book; I would preach as he did the gospel of the Lord Jesus, "whose shoes I am not worthy to bear." It is my earnest desire to enjoy the delight of expounding to you the deep things of God; I feel a profound pleasure in opening up the blessings of the covenant of grace, and bringing forth out of its treasury things new and old. I should be happy to dwell upon the types of the Old Testament, and even to touch upon the prophecies of the New; but, while so many yet remain unsaved, my heart is never content except when I am preaching simply the gospel of Jesus Christ.

My dear unconverted hearers, when I see you brought to Christ, I will then advance beyond the rudiments of the gospel; but, meanwhile, while hell is gaping wide, and many of you will certainly help to fill it, I cannot turn aside from warning you. I dare not resist the sacred impulse which constrains me to preach over and over again to you the glad tidings of salvation. I shall, like John, continue laying the axe at the root of the trees, and shall not go beyond crying, "Repent ye, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." As he did, we shall now declare the sad estate of him who believeth not the Son of God.

These are words spoken by Charles Spurgeon he was a true man of God..

The rest of his sermon is in this link..

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1012.htm

tob

 

[Eugene]

If the dead cannot know anything, how can they be judged? If they are judged, is it just to tell them they're not going to heaven?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Are they being judged to tell them why they're already dead? and no further action is to be taken regardless of scripture? Just go back to sleep huh?

That all makes me wonder at Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And his sons don't suffer the same consequence? John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil . .

Is it possible how we understand death and how God sees it could be different?

 

[TimothyW]

If the dead cannot know anything, how can they be judged? If they are judged, is it just to tell them they're not going to heaven?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Are they being judged to tell them why they're already dead? and no further action is to be taken regardless of scripture? Just go back to sleep huh?

That all makes me wonder at Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And his sons don't suffer the same consequence? John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil . .

Is it possible how we understand death and how God sees it could be different?

The dead are resurrected for judgment. Then the wicked perish. They die the second death, just as the Bible says.
Rev 20:10 talks about 3 beings. The devil, the beast, and the false prophet. It doesn't say "All of the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever".

 

[th1b.taylor]

Thanks Bill. That is why I back up everything I say with scripture.What I say is of no importance, but what God says in His Word is of paramount importance.
"The grass withers, the flower fades,
but the word of our God will stand forever."
Isaiah 40:8

What I type in the internet will wither and fade like grass or flowers. But the word of our God will stand forever.

Tim,
If you and I had not, already, exchanged our thoughts I could believe you are sincere in this post. However, since we do know each other's propensity, I do, instead, see you, once more, attempting to cloak your personal attack. You pulled it off once but not this time.

Read all of scripture, including the verses I posted oin the last exchange on the Topical Study of Hell and you will be forgiven, just like I was... after I repented. Both Free's post and mine are to the point and your being slick is not at, all, called for.

For anyone not knowing of what I speak, Hell is where the "First" of, better known as the " Naturally," Dead man awaits the Second Resurrection, the resurrection of the Spiritually Dead, the Dead that this foolish idea that the Soul expires when the Lost die and are buried. Tim and I have had this discussion and pride prevented him from doing the Nave's Topical study on the matter and he conned me into a statement that looked very much like a personal attack, when viewed, exasperated, from the remainder of that string... the same thing he is doing in "his" personal 9nterpretation of the scriptures.

 

[TimothyW]

RE:

your personal attack.

No attack, I'm sincere.

What I've said is from the Bible, didn't you see it? I don't think that I'm on a throne, God is on the Throne and I repeat what He says in His Word, the Bible.
See posts 20 and 21.

There is no attack on you Bill. May God bless you and lead you to the truth. There is no verse in the Bible that says the wicked will go to hell when they die where they will be tortured alive forever. But if you know of a verse that says that, please post it. Thank you Brother!

 

[Eugene]

Rev 20:10 talks about 3 beings. The devil, the beast, and the false prophet.

And so you agree these three of Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.?

By the way, those dead judged are not going to hell, but death and hell are cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14.

 

[jeff77]

This just doesn't go away does it? I have kept an open mind and prayed to God for the answer but I still can't comprehend how not being aware of your eternal judgment=eternal judgment. I am still trying to find some research of how the major scholars of recent time and of the past would interpret this. From what I can tell most denominations teach ECT and always have. We interpret the Bible don't we? Why has ECT been the accepted interpretation by the majority for so long? By the way, Im not saying that what the majority believes is what is right. Im just asking the question.

 

[Eugene]

53 Passages proving that the wages of sin is death, just as the Bible says, continued:
Ezekiel 18:4 The soul who sins will die.

Have you sinned Timothy? I'm only asking this because you seem to be applying it to the OP "The Fate of the Unsaved." If you weren't saved would there be no hope for you?

 

[TimothyW]

Have you sinned Timothy? I'm only asking this because you seem to be applying it to the OP "The Fate of the Unsaved." If you weren't saved would there be no hope for you?

You are correct, if I weren't saved, I would perish just as the Bible says. John 3:16, whosoever believes in him will not PERISH but will have eternal life.
However, since I trust in Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of my sins, I don't pay the wages of sin myself (which is death). Christ's death on the cross pays the wages of sin for me.
Yes, I have sinned, and I have had my sins forgiven by Jesus Christ. The wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our lord.
Ezekiel says that the soul who sins shall die, but Ezekiel goes on to say that the person who turns from his sin shall live, and not die. You should read Ezekiel 18, it is very good.

 

[Eugene]

Ezekiel says that the soul who sins shall die, but Ezekiel goes on to say that the person who turns from his sin shall live, and not die. You should read Ezekiel 18, it is very good.

Agreed it is good, and I had not read it since I can't remember when. This seems to cover the sin unto death doesn't it or do you agree? I will say offhand that I've never read of one turning from all their transgressions, else Jesus died in vain.

 

[TimothyW]

Agreed it is good, and I had not read it since I can't remember when. This seems to cover the sin unto death doesn't it or do you agree? I will say offhand that I've never read of one turning from all their transgressions, else Jesus died in vain.

I believe that when we turn to Christ for forgiveness, we are turning from our transgressions. God knows we slip, but we have become a new creation in Christ, a Child of God.

 

[Eugene]

Amen.

 

[Free]

As you say, that remains to be seen. Does Romans 6:23 say "Physical" Death, "Spiritual" Death, or just "Death"? It says "the wages of sin is death" so I believe that the wages of sin is death. If it meant eternal torment, it would have said eternal torment.

This has nothing to do with the response I gave to you. You are pulling a bait-and-switch and that is not fair to the discussion.

You stated: "I wanted to post this, because sometimes people will say things to me such as "You don't believe in the final punishment of the unsaved because you don't believe they are eternally tormented!" I certainly do believe the unsaved face final and permanent punishment, (Eternal Punishment, Matt 25:46), and this Final, Permanent, and Eternal Punishment is Death, just as the Bible says."

To which I responded with: "Two main problems with such a position are:

1. It undermines most of what Jesus says about hell, and
2. Non-existence is not punishment, it's simply non-existence."

Your response to that was: "I disagree. Being destroyed is a punishment. Ask anyone who has been destroyed! Or if the death penalty is not a punishment, why are mass murderers put to death as punishment?"

And I responded: "Physical death is not the destruction we're talking about though, is it? We're talking about the final punishment of the wicked. The only way your argument can make sense is if you don't believe in a non-material soul that exists after physical death, in which case you then have other problems."

You are erroneously comparing a physical death now, the first death, to the final punishment of the unbeliever, the second death, as though they are the same. Please stick to what is being said.

Absolutely!

But I have shown that is not what you are addressing.

Actually, "my" argument is that the Bible means what it says. If the soul survives death, then a contradiction arises within Scripture, because Ezekiel 18:4 says that the soul who sins shall die. If a soul can't die, then the scriptures are false. If the soul can die, then there is no problem with what I believe. Also if the soul is not destroyed in Gehenna, if it can't be, then Jesus wasn't telling us the truth when he said that we should fear the one who CAN destroy both body and soul in Gehenna.

If your argument really is "that the Bible means what it says," then you really need to take into account all that the Bible actually says. Firstly, "can" is quite different then "will." Secondly, as to your belief in the destruction of the soul upon the first death, one main problem arises, as well as something nonsensical. As to the problem:

Luk 12:42 And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time?
Luk 12:43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes.
Luk 12:44 Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions.
Luk 12:45 But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk,
Luk 12:46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful.
Luk 12:47 And that servant who knew his master's will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating.
Luk 12:48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.(ESV)

Clearly we see Jesus teaching degrees of punishment for unbelievers, just as Paul teaches of degrees of reward for believers. Since there are degrees of punishment, if the soul simply ceases to exist at the first death and gets annihilated at the second death, then punishment for all unbelievers is the same. So now you have a contradiction. And of course, it must be pointed out then that Hitler, Stalin, etc., would receive the same punishment as your co-workers, neighbours, etc., which makes little sense.

As to the nonsensical point: why would God recreate the body, spirit, and mind of unbelievers at the resurrection, since, according to you, they are destroyed at the first death, only to destroy them in hell? That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. Why not just let them remain destroyed after the first death?

This is not based on just one verse. I do take everything Jesus says into account. If Jesus ever said that the lost will be sent to Hell where they will be tormented alive forever, please let me know the chapter and verse. I don't believe He ever said that.

That is not the case I am making. I have just shown, and can continue to show, how you actually have not taken into account all that Scripture states about hell.

Your position completely undermines what Jesus says. I'm not going to post passages for you but they are plentiful, particularly in the gospels. Look at the severity of the warnings Jesus gives--better to enter eternal life with one eye or one arm then go to hell. Yet, if ceasing to exist is the punishment, the warnings are pointless. Even when punishment is only implied: How could it then be true that it is better that the man who betrays Jesus not have been born? How can it be said that it is better that one have a millstone tied around their neck and drowned? These statements make no sense apart from some actual punishment, other than cessation of existence.

Ceasing to exist is not punishment and it certainly is not anything deserving of such severe warnings.

I know. It doesn't disagree with Scripture either. But if you wish to share your interpretation of scripture that you think disagrees with my SOF, let me know, we can talk.

Well, I've studied this thoroughly and it doesn't disagree with scripture. Whether or not you are able to come up with scripture that disagrees remains to be seen.

I have done so.

 

[Free]

Annihilationism, which is better described as the Doctrine of Conditional Immortality has better scriptural support:

Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.

1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.

The first problem is that any of those verses can also support eternal torment in hell. The second problem is that you are doing what I had stated earlier--taking select verses instead of the entirety of what Scripture has to say on the matter. You are pitting Scripture against Scripture, instead of trying to find a coherent understanding of all that is given. The third problem, as mainly seen in Romans 6:23, is ignoring the nuances in meaning of "life" and "death." The fourth problem is the usage of what I consider to be the strawman, "eternal torture." The Bible does not seem to teach that.

 

[wendy]

Physical death is not the destruction we're talking about though, is it? We're talking about the final punishment of the wicked. The only way your argument can make sense is if you don't believe in a non-material soul that exists after physical death, in which case you then have other problems.


Jesus said far more about hell than just that. You must take all into account, everything Jesus says, everything the rest of Scripture says. You cannot build a proper understanding of something based on one verse.


It doesn't disagree with your interpretation of Scripture. Whether or not it doesn't actually disagree with Scripture remains to be seen.

Human interpretation of the Bible should involve the acts in Creation, after all the Acts are being discussed along with the spirit Laws for teaching morality.

Therefore the Acts of Creation imply the story of our Fall from out of our Fathers Light Heaven, into the created life because of the Adam and Eve incident. As many religious teachings of our past have been referenced along with Biblical records, as records that are also obviously connected to the stories, but not included in the Biblical dialogues, this gets confusing for Christians who have been taught through both the applications of Biblical records but also verbally heard other religious documentation and stories. This is because so many arguments have been caused over religious ideals.

If you are placed in the fire that burns with brimstone, and brimstone is volcanic activity as per documentation, then this teaching does not imply to the spirit of life, rather the spirit of death who belongs to the infernal creation. Hence we have always relied on astute Teachers to reference the stories as they are written. Satan, being the Fallen Angel causing our spiritual life in Heaven to change, caused us to be incarnate and suffer incarnate life to die and return to the light. Therefore as Satan is stated to be placed in the stone of Earth, it is discussing what Satan caused in the creative Act.
edited per TOS
Discussion of Catholic doctrine is limited and will only be allowed in the One on One Debate Forum and End Times forum only. RCC content in the End Times forum should relate to End Times beliefs. Do not start new topics elsewhere or sway existing threads toward a discussion or debate that is may be viewed as ‘Catholic’ in nature. reba

Christianity should be able to see beyond these forms of religious bias to enable them to think about the religious content.

Would a kind, caring, loving Father who exists in light have enabled an evil spirit to be present with himself in this Light situation or to be present in this level of light where only loving, kind spirits exist? This would need to be questioned, the students should have always have questioned the Teacher.

Obviously through a spiritual life, we know that being love, kindness and caring does not allow for an evil state to support a loving, kind state, therefore evil was never present with our Father in his Light Heaven and the Adam and Eve story depicts the first human beings living a life in a different Earth Heaven than what we currently do. The story line of creation therefore needed to be discussed to question the reality of the story line. As a human being who believes in our Light Father's Creation, I do not believe in evolution. Proving this would be to use archaeology that provides evidence of human existence before dinosaurs, proving that very ancient human beings once lived on Earth a very long time ago who came directly from out of light as a created act by our Father in Light.

As our life is taught to have a spiritual purpose, and our spiritual purpose as the moral Law explains that the Christ situation allowed us all to die without sin. This would explain that at our death, our spirit is released from its human form just like Jesus Christ was released, to return to the abode of Heavenly light. We are taught that we follow in the paths of Christ. Therefore we are taught that our spirit is released from the Acts of Sin (creation) that caused us to suffer the agonies involved in living. When released we return to our light spirit in the light Heaven. Jesus himself inquired of our Father about human cruelty and his spirit became aware in his suffering that humanity were "unaware spiritually".....In Mark and Matthew, Jesus cries out to God. In Luke, he forgives his killers, reassures the good thief, and commends his spirit to the Father.

1. Luke 23:34: Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do

To explain the wicked as a moral story would imply that the Christ belongs to the teachings of morality and because of the wicked Act of Satan, we are caused to live immorally. We are taught morality for the purpose of living a spiritual human life, respecting our life and the life of others. Yet we also need to be honest, a large percentage of humanity has never lived a moral existence and have lived a life of wars, inhumanity and immorality. Is anyone going to imply that billions of human beings were not accepted back into Heavenly light because they had been forced to live because of original Sin?

You would need to question your own spiritual journey and ask what would make a human being unaware of spiritual love? It is obvious that if we are forced to live upon the stone of Earth where Satan's spirit was placed (radiated/burnt dead spirits) then this would affect our minds and cause us to make bad and inhumane life choices.....is this our fault living on the Earth, or is this the only choice our Heavenly Light Father had? Obviously he had no choice other than to place our life in this created situation.

When we apply a spiritual purpose to our life we also have to be honest about this purpose and if our Father had a purpose in his created Act that allowed for human indiscretions only because he was healing his angelic losses from out of Heaven, then why would he continue to destroy a spirit forced to live a incarnate life full of personal suffering because of a spiritual mistake made in light? We have been guided to understand this reality that a child is innocent and is taught by his parents what to believe and how to behave. If children are abused, they become abusers. Are we held accountable for how we are taught, for how we are abused, when the abuses we inherited in our Nature have never been healed?

Our Father explained that our Nature is wild......wild animals with whom we commune affect our psyche and our spiritual awareness, as does the wildness of the creation itself, involving huge acts of destructive interferences.
Matthew 4:1-25
Then Jesus was led up by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted by the devil. And after fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. And the tempter came and said to him, “If you are the Son of God, command these stones to become loaves of bread.” But he answered, “It is written, “‘Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that comes from the mouth of God.’” Then the devil took him to the holy city and set him on the pinnacle of the temple

Jesus taught us about the stone, that although the stone supports our life, our food and our spirit because of the Fall of Satan into stone, we live by the Word that comes from the mouth of God, our Spirit. Therefore human beings live due to the fall into the creation of stone because we come from the spirit of light and the living spirit and we return to this light spirit even though living on the stone is our Life Bread...our life situation.

Being refused forgiveness would imply that human beings held no purpose in their life and were being born for no real spiritual reason.....this is incorrect.

We were asked to apply the act of forgiveness ourselves to the crime of life, which is something very difficult to apply when you have been a victim of immorality.

• Daniel 9:9
  The Lord our God is merciful and forgiving, even though we have rebelled against him

 

[wendy]

If the dead cannot know anything, how can they be judged? If they are judged, is it just to tell them they're not going to heaven?

Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. Are they being judged to tell them why they're already dead? and no further action is to be taken regardless of scripture? Just go back to sleep huh?

That all makes me wonder at Rev 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. And his sons don't suffer the same consequence? John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil . .

Is it possible how we understand death and how God sees it could be different?

Since when is the devil our Father?

Our Father is in our Light Heaven, our Heavenly Father.

In the Bible there are the Acts of Creation and also the spiritual teachings of Jesus Christ, regarding spiritual Laws. Instead of trying to imply a spiritual teaching from an obvious discussion of a created act......knowing that the act of evil was to burn the spirit body that was once in Heaven. This is just biblical science, and has nothing to do with the human spirit. In the religious discussions Adam and Eve the first humans were separate from Satan (snake-serpent). Why is it so difficult for anyone to review the Biblical situation for what it implies....why do Christians still follow Catholic principles in the teaching methods applied to the readings of the Bible? I always thought that the Christian movement allowed for a freer thinking spiritual advice rather than believing in Hell and Brimstone.

Think about the Bible as holding advice about 2 principle functions...the acts of Creation and the acts of spiritual morality by advisement.

As the alpha, being a wavelength is also a term of expression for man or men, then it is implied as a alpha wavelength situation of man, not a HUMAN BEING. Simply because obviously a HUMAN BEING is not an evil being, only Satan and his devils are. Therefore the dead in the sea relates to the incidence involving the Dead Sea, being the area which applied to the communities involved in the era for the Life of Christ. If you review the history in this area, huge amounts of salt deposits are noticed. If Hell, where Satan resides as a spirit (Earth stone) brimstone (lava) delivered up the dead, then obviously the Earth provides the evidence that it had erupted. As Adam and Eve caused the Earth to change its created state, then it discusses archaeological evidence as a biblical history.

The Catholic brothers have actually historically studied the biblical records and already determined that many discussions in the Bible occurred historically.

For anyone to imply that this Revelation involves human beings would imply that our Light Father would cause us all to go to Hell when we died and that our Creator was a devil.....then what would the purpose of living be...especially if you lived a Christian and loving life....it would apply no hope when you died and that we are all evil beings.

When you apply how religion has been taught in our history, it was taught to cause great fear with a purpose to gain a condition for moral standards and moral practices...after all we can all look back into ancient civilization and see that it was immoral. Fear was used by religious teachers to scare humanity into believing in moral standards for the purpose of Law control. Many incorrect religious teaching practices still propose very untrue descriptions of religious information. If you care to concern yourself with biblical teachings, then also be prepared to concern yourself with Creation teachings also as biblical science explanations, because we were taught the Acts of Creation for the very purpose of determining that we would never change them through scientific pursuits because otherwise you would release the unholy spirits from out of the Earth stone, that were sealed inside of Earth's creation.....the Bible does involve the Laws of the Stone also known as the Philosophy of the Stone.