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The fate of the unsaved

What is the fate of the unsaved?


  • Total voters
    16
It does say destroy the body (therefore) the soul and no mention of the spirit being destroyed... fits perfectly don't you agree?
I don't know. I’m not quite sure what you mean by; it does say "destroy the body (therefore) the soul". That’s not what the ESV records or any other translation that I am aware of. In fact, in a logical sense this verse makes three statements:
1. Man has the ability to kill the body but not the soul.
2. God has the ability to kill both (body/soul) in Hell.
3. Therefore, fear God’s ability. It’s more powerful than man’s ability, basically.
4. Oh, and if you read the context around the verse it also makes a fourth statement to the disciples that, therefore, they should trust in God more than man.​
What the verse doesn’t address is what (if anything) happens to man’s spirit if the soul is destroyed. Which, if I had to guess, would imply that as the soul is destroyed so is the spirit, but it just a guess. Since, to guess otherwise would seem to imply God doesn’t have the ability to destroy man’s ‘spirit’ should He so choose to do so, if there is such a thing as a man’s spirit separate from man’s soul.

I don’t think that’s true of an Almighty God. If He’s the creator of each man’s spirit (should there be such a substance), then surely He can ‘un-create it’ (destroy it) if He’s Almighty.

Since the verse doesn't mention 'Spirit' at all, it's hard for me to draw any conclusions about what it teaches concerning a man’s 'spirit' (one way or the other) if there is such a substance as a human ‘spirit’ separate from man’s ‘soul’.

I certainly know what it implies will happen to the body and the soul of the lost, however, in Hell. Which again would seem to be the same as “the wages of sin = death”. Not quite sure why that would be true for man’s soul/body but not also true for the third element, spirit.

But, yes thank you for your answer. I wondered if that was the interpretation that you’d draw from this passage. I appreciate your answer, I think.

I personally lean toward the dichotomist view of man (body/soul) with our ‘spirit’ being used Biblically as a function or conduit (if you will) to interact with a Holy God. I think it makes more sense of the texts over the trichotomist view (body/soul/spirit) all three being entirely separate substances (things). But, I need to say that it’s not really a subject that I’ve looked into that much. Nor did I mean to derail the thread onto this subject. I will not pursue it more here as it’s slightly off-topic, I suppose.

I just wondered what you thought of Matt 10:28 as a Trichotomist.

If you are right (and you very well may be) and man has three separate substances, (Body/Soul/Spirit) versus just two (Body/Soul) then it does provide somewhat of a resolution what seems clearly in conflict with ECT=yes otherwise. That is how the third substance, the spirit, of the lost could experience ECT yet their body/soul be destroyed with respect to this one verse (Matt 10:28), I think. I still think it's rather speculative, however.

I’ve honestly never really thought about studying this separate issue (Di versus Tri) in with ECT = yes or no? Which seems like maybe a mistake on my part doesn't it, now that I think about it?

Thanks again, but let’s not divert the topic to a Di vs Tri chotomy debate here in this Thread.

I apologize if I’ve done so already too much.
 
Take the account of the Rich man and Lazarus.

The bodies of all of them were in tombs. So what are they in the passage? Disembodied spirits.
Not sure how you come to this conclusion. The bodies of the five unnamed brothers of The Rich Man were alive and well. It's true that the three: Lazarus', The Rich Man's and Abraham's bodies were 'in tombs', but not all of them in the story were in the tomb. Maybe that's what you meant, these three?
 
I have heard several pastors recently talk about the story of Lazarus and the rich man to describe the afterlife. I know that the story takes place before the resurrection and judgment but is it still possible that the story is intended to give us an example of hell even though it is out chronological order?
In the Bible there is a specific example of what will happen in the coming judgment. The story of Lazarus and the Rich Man is never claimed in the Bible to be an example of the coming judgment. But Jude 1:7 says that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is an example of the coming judgment. "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7, NIV

S & G were destroyed. The Bible specifically says that they are an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. So the result of the judgment is undeniably destruction, not eternal conscious torment.
 
Didn't anyone read the large posts proving that the wages of sin is death and not eternal conscious torment?

Annihilationism, which is better described as the Doctrine of Conditional Immortality has better scriptural support:

Here are 53 passages proving that Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell is not a Biblical Doctrine. The lost perish and are no more. They are destroyed, not kept around in hell and tormented forever. They go to their death, they don't go to be eternally tortured in hell alive forever after they are dead.

1
Matt 7:13
Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.
This says destruction, not eternal torment.

2
Matthew 10:28
Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Body and Soul will be destroyed in hell. Not burned alive forever in hell.

3
Matthew 13:30
First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up,
The greek word that is used is katakausai, which comes from katakaio, and it means to consume by burning, burn down. The tares are gone after they burned. The meaning is the same as in the last 2 verses, that the wicked will be destroyed. As Jesus says in verse 40,
So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

Just as the tares are destroyed by burning, the wicked people will be destroyed by burning, at the end of the age.

4
Luke 13:3
I tell you, no, but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
Here, the greek word for perish is apoleisthe, which comes from the word apollumi, and means "to utterly destroy, kill, slay, demolish. Apoleisthe is the future tense form of apollumi which means will be utterly destroyed or will be killed.
What apoleisthe does not mean is "will be tortured alive forever."

Jesus says that the end for the unrighteous will be the same as for those in the days of Noah (Matthew 17:27), "the flood came and destroyed them all" (not tortured).
and it will be the same as for Sodom (verse 29) "destroyed them" (not tortured).

5
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
So either a person receives eternal life, or they perish. They die. They are not burned alive forever, they just perish.

6
John 5:24, Jesus said
Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
He has passed from death into life, eternal life. Jesus did not say 'Whoever believes has passed from eternal life being tortured in hell to eternal life with no torture'.

7
John 8:21
Then He said again to them, “I go away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin; where I am going, you cannot come."
Jesus said they would die in their sin, not be burned alive forever.

8
Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Note: Death, not eternal torment.

9
1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and that is what you are.
Destroy, not torture alive forever.

10
Galations 6:8
For the one who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption (phthoran), but the one who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life.
phthoran: From phtheiro; decay, i.e. Ruin (spontaneous or inflicted, literally or figuratively) -- corruption, destroy, perish.
The one who sows to his own flesh reaps destruction, not eternal living torment.

11
2 Thessalonians 1:9
These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Destruction, not eternal living torment. The greek word is olethron: destruction.
From a primary ollumi (to destroy; a prolonged form); ruin, i.e. Death, punishment -- destruction.

12
Hebrews 10:26-27,
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES
Here it says the fire consumes the adversaries. They are burned up, not eternally alive and burning, but consumed.

13
Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.


14
James 1:15
and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death.
Death, not eternal torture.

15
James 4:12
There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the One who is able to save and to destroy;
Destroy, not eternally torture.

16
2 Peter 2:1
But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves.
Destruction, not eternal torment.

17
2 Peter 3:7-9
But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
8But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved, that with the Lord one day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years like one day. 9The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance.
Peter tells what will happen to ungodly men, they will be judged and then destroyed. All ungodly men will perish unless they repent.

18
1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
How can those without life be living forever in a lake of fire?

19
Jude 5
Now I desire to remind you, though you know all things once for all, that the Lord, after saving a people out of the land of Egypt, subsequently destroyed those who did not believe.

20
Jude 10
But these men revile the things which they do not understand; and the things which they know by instinct, like unreasoning animals, by these things they are destroyed.

21
Revelation 2:11
He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.
The living and the dead will be judged on the last day. Those in Christ will not experience the second death. Those not in Christ will experience a second death. This second death is their destruction.

22
Revelation 17:8
The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction.

23
Revelation 18:8
For this reason in one day her plagues will come, pestilence and mourning and famine, and she will be burned up with fire; for the Lord God who judges her is strong.
The greek word katakauthesetai comes from katakaio and means utterly burnt up, destroyed, not eternally burned alive. (The greek is future passive indicative tense, therefore it is the word katakauthesetai).

24
Revelation 20:14-15
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
John interprets this for us, the lake of fire is the second death. If anyones name is not in the book of life, he experiences the second death. This is exactly what it says, death. It is not eternal living torment.

25
Revelation 21:8
“But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
They will undergo the second death, which means they are dead.

The proof is written in large letters throughout the bible. After the first sin, what was the promised consequence? God said that it was death. God didn't tell them that they would be given eternal life being tormented in hell. If eternal torture in hell is the consequence, it is jarringly missing from any statement by God to Adam and Eve. God even barred Adam and Eve from the garden to prevent them eating from the tree of life and living forever. Paul explains this: Romans 6:23, The wages of sin is death. This is obvious, Paul said what the wages of sin is and it is not to be burned alive forever after you are dead.
 
Didn't anyone read the large posts proving that the wages of sin is death and not eternal conscious torment?

Yes, I have read them but I don't understand them the same way you do. I understand your interpretation of them. If there was a verse that said "the unsaved will not be aware of their fate after they have entered it because they will not be conscious in anyway" then it would make sense to me that annihilation is true. I have tested this interpretation against my own and based on what Ive learned so far there is nothing inside me telling me to change my belief.
 
Yes, I have read them but I don't understand them the same way you do. I understand your interpretation of them. If there was a verse that said "the unsaved will not be aware of their fate after they have entered it because they will not be conscious in anyway" then it would make sense to me that annihilation is true. I have tested this interpretation against my own and based on what Ive learned so far there is nothing inside me telling me to change my belief.
I'm glad that you can see why I believe what I believe. A lot of people (even my wife, for petesake) claim that I only believe what I read in the Bible because I don't want to believe that God sends people to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever. Of course I don't want to believe that, but if the Bible ever said that, I would would have to believe it or I wouldn't be a "Bible Believing" Christian. Since the Bible says that the way is wide that leads to destruction, I can't believe that the lost are not destroyed and still claim that I believe the Bible. There is a lot of evidence for my view in the Bible, as I have shown. But believing that or not believing that is a matter of will. I don't know why people harden their hearts to the truth. If Jesus says that the Body and Soul will be destroyed, that's good enough for me. If nothing inside you is telling you that the way is wide that leads to destruction, then nothing I say is going to make any difference.
 
Timothy I just want to say it really is nice to read your words.....we totally agree with you no one suffers in a living state at all. The only 'forever' is that they could be gone forever as in no longer existing.

Digging
 
Timothy I just want to say it really is nice to read your words.....we totally agree with you no one suffers in a living state at all. The only 'forever' is that they could be gone forever as in no longer existing.

Digging
Thanks Digging,
I was feeling frustrated. I didn't know how I could say these things any more clearly, and then to still be misunderstood. It hurt.
 
What do you you believe is the fate of the unsaved?

1. Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell.
2. They perish and are not conscious of eternal torment in Hell
3. Everyone is eventually saved.

What scriptures support your belief?
(Let's all be kind to one another)
The Lord saves us from the consequences of our sins, when he chooses to do so, but if we don't repent of our sin,
What do you you believe is the fate of the unsaved?

1. Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell.
2. They perish and are not conscious of eternal torment in Hell
3. Everyone is eventually saved.

What scriptures support your belief?
(Let's all be kind to one another)
One must first understand salvation. It isn't what so many people make it out to be.

The Lord rescues us from the consequences of our sin, over and over again, but he expects us to learn from our mistakes. It is our sin that gets us into trouble, and we need to repent, because the Lord stops helping us if we don't repent.

By the time we die and enter the resurrection, we will have all figured this out. If we choose then to continue to sin, you can imagine how harsh his discipline will be.
 
The second part of the OP was "What scriptures support your belief?"

I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

So if a person has eternal life, they live forever. Right? Well look around. Everyone is dying, or will some day. So this eternal life, can't be living and not dying. The Bible says that Jesus Christ is returning and he will resurrect the dead. So eternal life is being resurrected from the dead, and THEN living forever. (Or else the Bible is just wrong, and we forget this whole religion thing and go on with our short lives until we die.)

Okay, so assuming the Bible is correct, and we can trust the promises of God, we (those of us who believe in the name of the Son of God) will be resurrected after we die and we will have eternal life. How about those who do NOT believe in the name of the Son of God? The Bible says that WE may know that we have eternal life. Is that a trick statement? Does EVERYBODY have eternal life, whether or not they believe in the name of the Son of God? Obviously not. They do not have eternal life. The verse before says "Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:12

A person who doe not have eternal life will die.It's that simple. They will not live forever in hell being tormented alive forever after they die. They will perish, just as the Bible says. Read John 3:16. Whoever believes in him shall not PERISH, but will have ETERNAL LIFE.

And for some weird reason, this simple message (which is specifically what the Bible says) is hated by nearly every religious person in the world.
Well, there are a lot of people on that wide road right? But the way is narrow that leads to life and only a few find it. Jesus said that, Matthew 7:13 and 14.

May God bless you completely...
 
Whenever this subject comes up for discussion everyone that opposes an eternal hell believes God meant this place for humans why is that?

tob
 
We (those of us who believe in the name of the Son of God) will be resurrected after we die and we will have eternal life. How about those who do NOT believe in the name of the Son of God?
Col_3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God

1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,

If we presently have eternal life, we die physically, are absent from the body and present with the Lord, what in the grave will be resurrected of the believer that them who remain alive until the Lord comes in the air will not need be taken from the grave?

Those that believe not will have their place at the great white throne judgment.
 
Yes, I have read them but I don't understand them the same way you do. I understand your interpretation of them. If there was a verse that said "the unsaved will not be aware of their fate after they have entered it because they will not be conscious in anyway" then it would make sense to me that annihilation is true. I have tested this interpretation against my own and based on what Ive learned so far there is nothing inside me telling me to change my belief.

Maybe this ?

Ecc 9:5-6 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. (6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
 
Everything i read and try to learn in scripture seems to go around in circles. I feel everything written in scripture is like a scrambled egg.

Brother Kiwi,

The scriptures aren't scrambled our interpretations are.
 
I mean like, its not in order. Like one scripture can mean one thing then the next verse has jumped ahead or back. Its like i cannot read a book verse 1 to the end and it all just fits perfect verse to verse in perfect sequence. Its a scrambled egg. lol. But thats just the way i interpret, probably becasue im illiterate in understanding.

Its like one book says something and then other books quote the same scriptures, like micah and isaiah.

One chapter in another book maybe say something about the now when the next jumps back or ahead a thousand years or who knows. Its a scrambled egg.

It can add up in the end and thats cool. Im not saying its wrong but its just all over the place so its me trying to get everything in the correct order to make it all fit and make sense.

Ok. Enjoy the journey discovering the treasures in the Bible.

I don't think anyone has complete understanding of the scriptures. I think we'll have plenty of questions for Jesus when we see Him. :)

Ecc 3:11 He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.
 
I mean like, its not in order. Like one scripture can mean one thing then the next verse has jumped ahead or back. Its like i cannot read a book verse 1 to the end and it all just fits perfect verse to verse in perfect sequence. Its a scrambled egg. lol. But thats just the way i interpret, probably becasue im illiterate in understanding.

Its like one book says something and then other books quote the same scriptures, like micah and isaiah.

One chapter in another book maybe say something about the now when the next jumps back or ahead a thousand years or who knows. Its a scrambled egg.

It can add up in the end and thats cool. Im not saying its wrong but its just all over the place so its me trying to get everything in the correct order to make it all fit and make sense.

You mean like this?

2 Peter 3
7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


It's like deciphering a code.

:thinking
.
 
I mean like, its not in order. Like one scripture can mean one thing then the next verse has jumped ahead or back. Its like i cannot read a book verse 1 to the end and it all just fits perfect verse to verse in perfect sequence. Its a scrambled egg. lol. But thats just the way i interpret, probably becasue im illiterate in understanding.

Its like one book says something and then other books quote the same scriptures, like micah and isaiah.

One chapter in another book maybe say something about the now when the next jumps back or ahead a thousand years or who knows. Its a scrambled egg.

It can add up in the end and thats cool. Im not saying its wrong but its just all over the place so its me trying to get everything in the correct order to make it all fit and make sense.
Morning Dan, I don’t know if this following example will help understand the difficulty, but even Jesus had a problem getting certain thoughts across to His own disciples.
John 11:11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
Joh 11:12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
Joh 11:13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
Joh 11:14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

But was Lazarus dead forever? We must discern between the dead corpse and the dead to God forever; the same word can be used for both.

Mat 8:22 But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead. Huh?

Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?

Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err. Evidently Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were still alive.

Rev 20:4 . . the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, . . lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
 
Whenever this subject comes up for discussion everyone that opposes an eternal hell believes God meant this place for humans why is that?

tob
Who said that? I never said that God created a place of eternal torture meant for humans.
Where do you come up with this stuff? I've never seen anyone say that God made a place of eternal torment for humans and called the place "Hell". Except on the pro-Hell side.
 
Col_3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

1Jn_3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God

1Jn_5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.

1Jn_5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life,

If we presently have eternal life, we die physically, are absent from the body and present with the Lord, what in the grave will be resurrected of the believer that them who remain alive until the Lord comes in the air will not need be taken from the grave?

Those that believe not will have their place at the great white throne judgment.
I agree. It is at the Judgment where they will find out whether they have received eternal life or whether they will perish.
 
I agree. It is at the Judgment where they will find out whether they have received eternal life or whether they will perish.
I reckon from your reply that you do not think those such as Elias and Moses that appeared with Jesus on the mount realize they are of God until the judgment? Being that the judgment occurs after the millennium that would seriously put a hitch in the get-a-long of them with Jesus of Rev 5:9 singing "thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" which is prior to the thousand year reign of Christ.

In Php 4:3 Paul said that certain saints's names were already written in the book of life. "And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

My thoughts.
 
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