The Five Points of Calvinism

[WIP]

I have been reading through the Old Testament and it's amazing how many times the pendulum of Israel swings from God blessing them as they did well in the eyes of the Lord to God's wrath against them as they did evil in the eyes of the Lord. I've thought that if only those who have been predetermined to be saved can be saved then why would God get angry at any of us when we fail? If He predetermined our path it would seem we would be blameless.

 

[Chopper]

I

That's not what the scripture says -

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

The everlasting life is conditional upon believing.



But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

The gift of God is eternal life in Christ...

It does not say this gift is irrevocable.

...you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life.

The end result of a fruitful life of holiness is everlasting life.

Just as Peter says -

9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.1 Peter 1:9

For now we have faith in Christ for the salvation of our souls, and the end being eternal life.

Trying to build a doctrine off of one scripture, or one scripture and another taken out of context is not a sound way of building upon a sure foundation.

There are many scriptures in the new Testament the teach us the fullness of truth through the whole counsel of God.

Other verses in Romans 6 that exhort us about these things -

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.


Paul tells us that presenting ourselves to obey sin leads to death...for the wages of sin is death!



JLB

I really don't understand what you are posting. Your reply was correct except this, "He foresaw who would choose Christ, and He chose us, in Him." that is what I believe is not correct. When God chose you to be saved, He did not look into the future and see that you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Our all powerful God did this, Jer. 5:6 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

This does not say that God looked into the future! Because God knew you before you came into the world He chose you to be His child. Simple as that!

 

[Deborah13]

I

I really don't understand what you are posting. Your reply was correct except this, "He foresaw who would choose Christ, and He chose us, in Him." that is what I believe is not correct. When God chose you to be saved, He did not look into the future and see that you accepted Jesus as your Lord and Savior. Our all powerful God did this, Jer. 5:6 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

This does not say that God looked into the future! Because God knew you before you came into the world He chose you to be His child. Simple as that!

Those words were spoken to Jeremiah. I don't automatically assume that when He formed me in the womb and gave me a soul that He preordained me to be a certain way.
Is there a scripture where God says He does this with all people?

Because if He does than He is the cause of the evil in this world, not satan, not men who He won't allow to come to Him. He is the one ordaining all the pedophiles, homosexuals, murders, etc. to be what they are. Then He punishes them for being what He caused them to be. And that would include babies who were never even born alive to be cast into the fires of hell, because they were preordained to be punished forever.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"Again, your opinion cannot be substantiated from Scripture. Eternal life is given WHEN one believes, according to Jesus in Jn 5:24. And eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God, according to Rom 6:23 with 11:29."

That's not what the scripture says -

"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. John 5:24

The everlasting life is conditional upon believing.

Again, you keep missing the whole point. Yes, receiving eternal life is conditioned upon believing. But you have ZERO verses about loss of eternal life, and second, Rom 6:23 WITH Rom 11:29 PROVES that the gift of God, which is eternal life, is irrevocable. This is irrefutable.

It does not say this gift is irrevocable.

Combining Rom 6:23 WITH Rom 11:29 DOES say that gift is irrevocable. You just don't like your view being refuted by Scripture.

T

rying to build a doctrine off of one scripture, or one scripture and another taken out of context is not a sound way of building upon a sure foundation.

First, I have never used just one verse. It seems you have ignored or deleted one verse, though. Why won't you accept BOTH Rom 6:23 AND Rom 11:29? Those 2 verses refute your view.

Second, I've taken nothing out of context. That is just a cheap charge. btw, there are several different Greek words translated as "gift" in the NT. Yet, the Greek word for gift is the EXACT SAME in BOTH Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29.

Other verses in Romans 6 that exhort us about these things -

12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

There is NOTHING here that says that eternal life can be lost, given back, forfeited, or any other way you'd like to describe your view. ZERO.

Paul tells us that presenting ourselves to obey sin leads to death...for the wages of sin is death!

Yep. And the gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Irrefutable!!

 

[FreeGrace]

I
This does not say that God looked into the future! Because God knew you before you came into the world He chose you to be His child. Simple as that!

Can you quote any verse that says that God chooses who will believe? I can show you a verse that says that God is pleased to save those who believe. Which is a choice on His part; to save those who believe.

But there aren't any verses that indicate that God chooses who will believe. But that is the foundation for Calvin's point 2.

 

[JLB]

He foresaw who would choose Christ, and He chose us, in Him." that is what I believe is not correct. [QUOTE]

Ok.

Let's examine this, so I can understand better, your position.

just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love. Ephesians 1:4

having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
Ephesians 1:5

These two scriptures describe God's selection of those in Christ.

I think we both agree on this.

The only questions that would remain are:

• How did God know who would be in Christ, at the foundation of the world.

• How did those who were in Christ at the foundation of the world, come to be in Christ.

Thanks JLB

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch. Yes I did find each point and jBird's interpretation absolutely correct. You see, I actually went slow and studied all he was posting. As I said, I am a student of Calvin's theology. I have a few books written by others. Some try and counter Calvin but come up short, IMO.

You ask, "did I find his presentation sound?" Yes, sound in that it displays Calvins thoughts, not others. As I have posted before, my theology goes a little further than jBird's, in that I bring in the "General Call of the Gospel" which jBird does not. You see, Scripture speaks of people who have to "keep" their faith. Calvinism teaches that the Elect can't loose their Salvation, so who are these who can loose? That's where the general call comes in.

That's interesting, because I saw no cohesive argument laid out but rather a series of assertions and a tour through the Scriptures looking for texts that would seem to support them.

 

[Butch5]

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ,
4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved. Ephesians 1:3-6

God chose us in Christ... before the foundation of the world.
He foresaw who would choose Christ, and He chose us, in Him.


JLB

That's one of the passages that was used in the presentation, however, it is not speaking of Christians.

 

[Butch5]

Many believe that JLB, but that is not Calvinism. God chose before the foundations of the earth, and because of God's choice, they were saved, not that of foreknowledge. IMO your view would show a weak God. Please understand that I don't mean any disrespect. You are a good friend.

I don't hold the position that God looked into the future and chose those who would believe. Personally, I see nothing to suggest that. I actually think the Calvinist, has a better argument on that point.

 

[FreeGrace]

I don't hold the position that God looked into the future and chose those who would believe. Personally, I see nothing to suggest that. I actually think the Calvinist, has a better argument on that point.

What about 1 pet 1:1-2?
"1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus,Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." NASB

It specifically says that we (believers) are chosen according tot he foreknowledge of God.

 

[Butch5]

What about 1 pet 1:1-2?
"1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus,Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure." NASB

It specifically says that we (believers) are chosen according tot he foreknowledge of God.

That's how the Reformers translated it, that's not what the Greek says. Here is Young's literal translation.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! (1Pe 1:1-2 YLT)

To the elect sojourners of the dispersion or diaspora. The diaspora were those israelites who had been dispersed in the Babylonian captivity and those who had left Jerusalem due to persecution. However, if you notice the word "eclectos" elect is in verse one not verse 2. The passage doesn't say they were elect according to foreknowledge, it says, according to foreknowledge (knowing in the past), grace and peace be multiplied to you.

I submit that foreknowledge doesn't man God knowing the future but rather God having known them (Jews) in the past.

 

[Chopper]

Those words were spoken to Jeremiah. I don't automatically assume that when He formed me in the womb and gave me a soul that He preordained me to be a certain way.
Is there a scripture where God says He does this with all people?

Because if He does than He is the cause of the evil in this world, not satan, not men who He won't allow to come to Him. He is the one ordaining all the pedophiles, homosexuals, murders, etc. to be what they are. Then He punishes them for being what He caused them to be. And that would include babies who were never even born alive to be cast into the fires of hell, because they were preordained to be punished forever.

Deb, I can't believe that you actually posted what you did. Adam was the cause of evil, Satan is the father of evil, not God. What God did in the life of Jeremiah is simply an example of what God is able to do in every ones life, does He? No one knows the mind of the Lord. He certainly can.

Deb, are you angry at God? Or me.

 

[Chopper]

• How did God know who would be in Christ, at the foundation of the world.

• How did those who were in Christ at the foundation of the world, come to be in Christ.

• 
  Your first question. God knew who would be in Christ because He chose them, even before they were born.

• 
  Second question. The chosen, or elect, came to Christ because the call to Salvation to the elect is called Irresistible Grace. Even the term irrisistible speaks for itself. The sovereignly given gift of faith to the elect, or chosen before the foundation of the earth cannot be rejected by the chosen, or elect.

 

[Chopper]

That's interesting, because I saw no cohesive argument laid out but rather a series of assertions and a tour through the Scriptures looking for texts that would seem to support them.

I did! Perhaps it's because I'm a believer in Calviins theology.

 

[Chopper]

I don't hold the position that God looked into the future and chose those who would believe. Personally, I see nothing to suggest that. I actually think the Calvinist, has a better argument on that point.

Thanks Butch. I agree.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Deb, I can't believe that you actually posted what you did. Adam was the cause of evil, Satan is the father of evil, not God. What God did in the life of Jeremiah is simply an example of what God is able to do in every ones life, does He? No one knows the mind of the Lord. He certainly can.

Deb, are you angry at God? Or me.

Hi friend,

I do not think that Deborah is calling God the source or author of evil, because she doesn't actually believe in Calvinism. Rather, she thinks the logical conclusion of Calvinism is that he is the author of evil.

That if all events and actions are predetermined, not on the basis of foreknowledge of events, but according to God's sovereign purposes, then he was the only who determined that Adam would sin. If this is so, then Adam had no other alternative but to sin, as it was God's predetermined plan, and thus God is the primary cause for the fall of humanity and Adam was only acting in accordance with this plan, unbeknownst to him.

I have even heard some Calvinists basically accept this charge, and claim that he planned this and designed this universe in order to make known all his attributes, which included his wrath. In order to manifest his glory, and in order to demonstrate his wrath he needed to predetermine the existence of sin and disobedience within his creation. John Piper and others have defended such a position.

What are your thoughts on the matter? This is a huge issue, as it relates to the Problem of Evil, and a Calvinist deals with the issue very differently than an Arminian.

Look forward to your feedback Chopper, and please know that I most definitely consider you a brother in the Lord and know that you love the Lord very much. This is philosophical outworking of theological concepts, such as Calvinism, and criticism of that shouldn't reflect a person's disposition to God. Rather, they might criticize Calvinism because they are passionate about God and thinks that Calvinism paints a harmful picture of our Lord.

Blessings to you,
DI

 

[Deborah13]

Deb, I can't believe that you actually posted what you did. Adam was the cause of evil, Satan is the father of evil, not God. What God did in the life of Jeremiah is simply an example of what God is able to do in every ones life, does He? No one knows the mind of the Lord. He certainly can.

Deb, are you angry at God? Or me.

Why would I be angry at God or you?
I don't believe that God predestines people to be evil. Calvin did.
We are discussing Calvinism.
I believe God did ordain Jeremiah to be what he was but that doesn't me He predestined everyone to be who they are.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Thanks Butch. I agree.

Have you ever heard of Corporate Election? I too reject the belief that God merely looked into the future and saw who would believe and then elected these people. I embrace Corporate Election, which is that God has ordained to Elect a People, and in the Old Covenant this people was defined through the Covenant Representation of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in that the people of Israel who did not transgress the Covenant belonged to. In the New Covenant the elect people of God are chosen through Jesus Christ, having faith and being united in Him. In fact, you could say that God elected Jesus from the foundation of the world, and predestined that God would have a people from all nations through Jesus the Messiah.

This is Corporate Election, and this is how the Jews understood Election, and how I think Paul saw election which was now summed up in the person of Jesus Christ.

 

[Butch5]

Deb, I can't believe that you actually posted what you did. Adam was the cause of evil, Satan is the father of evil, not God. What God did in the life of Jeremiah is simply an example of what God is able to do in every ones life, does He? No one knows the mind of the Lord. He certainly can.

Deb, are you angry at God? Or me.

I would submit hat there is no reason to understand Jeremiah's situation as a universal event.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi friend,

I do not think that Deborah is calling God the source or author of evil, because she doesn't actually believe in Calvinism. Rather, she thinks the logical conclusion of Calvinism is that he is the author of evil.

That if all events and actions are predetermined, not on the basis of foreknowledge of events, but according to God's sovereign purposes, then he was the only who determined that Adam would sin. If this is so, then Adam had no other alternative but to sin, as it was God's predetermined plan, and thus God is the primary cause for the fall of humanity and Adam was only acting in accordance with this plan, unbeknownst to him.

I have even heard some Calvinists basically accept this charge, and claim that he planned this and designed this universe in order to make known all his attributes, which included his wrath. In order to manifest his glory, and in order to demonstrate his wrath he needed to predetermine the existence of sin and disobedience within his creation. John Piper and others have defended such a position.

What are your thoughts on the matter? This is a huge issue, as it relates to the Problem of Evil, and a Calvinist deals with the issue very differently than an Arminian.

Look forward to your feedback Chopper, and please know that I most definitely consider you a brother in the Lord and know that you love the Lord very much. This is philosophical outworking of theological concepts, such as Calvinism, and criticism of that shouldn't reflect a person's disposition to God. Rather, they might criticize Calvinism because they are passionate about God and thinks that Calvinism paints a harmful picture of our Lord.

Blessings to you,
DI

That is exactly what I think about pure Calvinism. Even Charles Spurgeon had trouble with this. He spoke about it in one of his sermons. He said, he did not believe he served a God like Molech but if it were true, he would just have to accept it.