The Five Points of Calvinism

[Butch5]

Have you ever heard of Corporate Election? I too reject the belief that God merely looked into the future and saw who would believe and then elected these people. I embrace Corporate Election, which is that God has ordained to Elect a People, and in the Old Covenant this people was defined through the Covenant Representation of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in that the people of Israel who did not transgress the Covenant belonged to. In the New Covenant the elect people of God are chosen through Jesus Christ, having faith and being united in Him. In fact, you could say that God elected Jesus from the foundation of the world, and predestined that God would have a people from all nations through Jesus the Messiah.

This is Corporate Election, and this is how the Jews understood Election, and how I think Paul saw election which was now summed up in the person of Jesus Christ.

I agree. I think I may differ slightly though. I still see the election as Israel. I see the Gentiles being part of the elect by entering into the covenant with with Israel as Paul elaborates on in Romans 11.

13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; {among them: or, for them}
18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (Rom 11:13-25 KJV)

I see the Gentiles entering into the covenant, being grafted into Israel, by faith in Christ.

 

[Butch5]

That is exactly what I think about pure Calvinism. Even Charles Spurgeon had trouble with this. He spoke about it in one of his sermons. He said, he did not believe he served a God like Molech but if it were true, he would just have to accept it.

See, that's one of the problems that I see. Look at the conflict he could reconcile.

 

[Deborah13]

Have you ever heard of Corporate Election? I too reject the belief that God merely looked into the future and saw who would believe and then elected these people. I embrace Corporate Election, which is that God has ordained to Elect a People, and in the Old Covenant this people was defined through the Covenant Representation of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in that the people of Israel who did not transgress the Covenant belonged to. In the New Covenant the elect people of God are chosen through Jesus Christ, having faith and being united in Him. In fact, you could say that God elected Jesus from the foundation of the world, and predestined that God would have a people from all nations through Jesus the Messiah.

This is Corporate Election, and this is how the Jews understood Election, and how I think Paul saw election which was now summed up in the person of Jesus Christ.

Corporate Election, makes so many things understandable. The things God did in the OT with Israel and in the NT with the Gentiles. It makes Paul's description about Israel understandable and the calling of the Gentiles.

Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

It was the scheme of God to have a chosen people from before the foundation of the world.

"Whom he did predestinate, etc. - The Gentiles, whom He determined to call into his Church with the Jewish people, He called - He invited by the preaching of the Gospel, to believe on his Son Jesus Christ. It is worthy of note, that all that is spoken here refers to what had already taken place; for the calling, justifying, and glorifying are here represented as having already taken place, as well as the foreknowing and the predestinating. It is therefore reasonable to suppose that the apostle refers to what God had already done among the Jews and Gentiles: though he may also speak of the things that were not as though they were."
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/clarke/romans/8.htm

 

[Chopper]

Hi friend,

I do not think that Deborah is calling God the source or author of evil, because she doesn't actually believe in Calvinism. Rather, she thinks the logical conclusion of Calvinism is that he is the author of evil.

That if all events and actions are predetermined, not on the basis of foreknowledge of events, but according to God's sovereign purposes, then he was the only who determined that Adam would sin. If this is so, then Adam had no other alternative but to sin, as it was God's predetermined plan, and thus God is the primary cause for the fall of humanity and Adam was only acting in accordance with this plan, unbeknownst to him.

I have even heard some Calvinists basically accept this charge, and claim that he planned this and designed this universe in order to make known all his attributes, which included his wrath. In order to manifest his glory, and in order to demonstrate his wrath he needed to predetermine the existence of sin and disobedience within his creation. John Piper and others have defended such a position.

What are your thoughts on the matter? This is a huge issue, as it relates to the Problem of Evil, and a Calvinist deals with the issue very differently than an Arminian.

Look forward to your feedback Chopper, and please know that I most definitely consider you a brother in the Lord and know that you love the Lord very much. This is philosophical outworking of theological concepts, such as Calvinism, and criticism of that shouldn't reflect a person's disposition to God. Rather, they might criticize Calvinism because they are passionate about God and thinks that Calvinism paints a harmful picture of our Lord.

Blessings to you,
DI

Hi there my good friend Doulos. I have never really addressed the statements that you have posted. They IMO show a huge amount of disrespect to a Holy God....There are many Scriptures, especially in the Hebrew Scriptures that state that God hates sin. God would never be even capable of predetermining that sin would come into His creation, and mankind. Sin is absolutely outside of God's sovereign purpose for His creation.

John Piper, oh boy, I am not in the least a fan of him. I've read at least a half dozen of his works because my former pastor thinks the sun rises and sets because of Piper. He is a brother in Christ and I do love him in the Lord, but don't like his writing.

 

[Chopper]

Why would I be angry at God or you?
I don't believe that God predestines people to be evil. Calvin did.
We are discussing Calvinism.
I believe God did ordain Jeremiah to be what he was but that doesn't me He predestined everyone to be who they are.

Ok, you are certainly welcome to hold that opinion. You will have to show me that Calvin said that God predestines people to be evil....I've read lots of Calvins works and never ran across that. I have read about Pharaoh and Judas, and there probably are a few more that I can't recall. There was a particular assignment given to them by God to demonstrate His purposes.

 

[Chopper]

Have you ever heard of Corporate Election? I too reject the belief that God merely looked into the future and saw who would believe and then elected these people. I embrace Corporate Election, which is that God has ordained to Elect a People, and in the Old Covenant this people was defined through the Covenant Representation of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in that the people of Israel who did not transgress the Covenant belonged to. In the New Covenant the elect people of God are chosen through Jesus Christ, having faith and being united in Him. In fact, you could say that God elected Jesus from the foundation of the world, and predestined that God would have a people from all nations through Jesus the Messiah.

This is Corporate Election, and this is how the Jews understood Election, and how I think Paul saw election which was now summed up in the person of Jesus Christ.

Thanks friend for giving me that information. I have never heard of Corporate Election. The way you explained it, it sounds very reliable.

 

[Chopper]

I would submit hat there is no reason to understand Jeremiah's situation as a universal event.

I don't either friend. I can see where some of the key figures in Scripture would have a specific preordained task to accomplish. Especially the Apostles.

 

[Deborah13]

Hi there my good friend Doulos. I have never really addressed the statements that you have posted. They IMO show a huge amount of disrespect to a Holy God....There are many Scriptures, especially in the Hebrew Scriptures that state that God hates sin. God would never be even capable of predetermining that sin would come into His creation, and mankind. Sin is absolutely outside of God's sovereign purpose for His creation.

I agree with your statement in bold . But Calvin did not agree with you. This is Calvin's own words....
.
Calvin's Commentary on Romans Vol 38 (verse 18)
".... Paul teaches us, that the ruin of the wicked is not only foreseen by the Lord, but also ordained by his counsel and his will; and Solomon teaches as the same thing, — that not only the destruction of the wicked is foreknown, but that the wicked themselves have been created for this very end — that they may perish."
http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/calvin/cc38/cc38012.htm
http://sbctoday.com/why-calvin-was-wrong-about-romans-9/

If God created the wicked and ordained them to be that way, then God would be the author of the wickedness that they do because they would have no choice. Calvin's predestined is a double predestination. Not just for the elect but for the evil.

John Piper, oh boy, I am not in the least a fan of him. I've read at least a half dozen of his works because my former pastor thinks the sun rises and sets because of Piper. He is a brother in Christ and I do love him in the Lord, but don't like his writing.

What does he say that you don't like?

 

[Deborah13]

Ok, you are certainly welcome to hold that opinion. You will have to show me that Calvin said that God predestines people to be evil....I've read lots of Calvins works and never ran across that. I have read about Pharaoh and Judas, and there probably are a few more that I can't recall. There was a particular assignment given to them by God to demonstrate His purposes.

See post #248, quoting Calvin.

 

[JLB]

Your first question. God knew who would be in Christ because He chose them, even before they were born.

Yes!

God foreknew, who would choose to be "in Christ" and wrote there names in the book of life written from the foundation of the world.

The way a person gets to be in Christ is they believe in their heart and confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus, and continue unto the end.

God saw the end from the beginning and chose us in Him, before the foundation of the world.

If there is another way to be in Christ, then please do share that with me.

Otherwise God in His foreknowledge, saw who would choose to believe in their heart and confess with their mouth, and He chose them in Christ.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Our all powerful God did this, Jer. 5:6 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

This does not say that God looked into the future! Because God knew you before you came into the world He chose you to be His child. Simple as that!

This is about Jeremiah the prophet.

 

[JLB]

I said this:
"Again, your opinion cannot be substantiated from Scripture. Eternal life is given WHEN one believes, according to Jesus in Jn 5:24. And eternal life is an irrevocable gift of God, according to Rom 6:23 with 11:29."

Again, you keep missing the whole point. Yes, receiving eternal life is conditioned upon believing. But you have ZERO verses about loss of eternal life, and second, Rom 6:23 WITH Rom 11:29 PROVES that the gift of God, which is eternal life, is irrevocable. This is irrefutable.

Combining Rom 6:23 WITH Rom 11:29 DOES say that gift is irrevocable. You just don't like your view being refuted by Scripture.

T
First, I have never used just one verse. It seems you have ignored or deleted one verse, though. Why won't you accept BOTH Rom 6:23 AND Rom 11:29? Those 2 verses refute your view.

Second, I've taken nothing out of context. That is just a cheap charge. btw, there are several different Greek words translated as "gift" in the NT. Yet, the Greek word for gift is the EXACT SAME in BOTH Rom 6:23 and Rom 11:29.


There is NOTHING here that says that eternal life can be lost, given back, forfeited, or any other way you'd like to describe your view. ZERO.


Yep. And the gift of eternal life is irrevocable. Irrefutable!!

You have ignored the scriptures in Romans 6 that lead up to and form the context for verse 23.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul is addressing Christians.

Christians who present themselves...as instruments of sin or of righteousness, is what Paul is contrasting.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13

Those who choose to present their member as instruments of sin, will reap the wages of sin which is death.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

wages of sin - Eternal death
obedience of righteousness - Eternal life

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

That's how the Reformers translated it, that's not what the Greek says. Here is Young's literal translation.

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
2 according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! (1Pe 1:1-2 YLT)

To the elect sojourners of the dispersion or diaspora.

The meaning isn't changed by YLT. The word "choice" is the same Greek word translated elect. And that choice or election is according to the foreknowledge of God.

I submit that foreknowledge doesn't man God knowing the future but rather God having known them (Jews) in the past.

So you don't believe that God knows the future???!!

 

[FreeGrace]

You have ignored the scriptures in Romans 6 that lead up to and form the context for verse 23.

Are you really serious??!!

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Paul is addressing Christians.

Of course he was. Why do you continue to reject that fact that the gift of God, being eternal life, is irrevocable? Your credibility has taken a serious hit when you do that. It's as if Rom 11:29 either doesn't apply to eternal life (without any evidence for that) or that you simply ignore it altogether. I cannot understand why you do that.

Christians who present themselves...as instruments of sin or of righteousness, is what Paul is contrasting.

And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. Romans 6:13

Those who choose to present their member as instruments of sin, will reap the wages of sin which is death.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

I've tried very hard, but you just aren't interested in the fact that the word "death" has a number of meanings in Scripture, just as the word 'saved' does. But you seem to be willing only to apply the eternal concept to both words, sadly.

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16

JLB

It seems obvious to me that your understanding of Romans 6 is rather lacking.

The FACT is that the gift of God is eternal life, which is based on faith.

The FACT is that God's gifts are irrevocable. That includes eternal life.

For some inexplicable reason, this isn't computing with you.

 

[Butch5]

The meaning isn't changed by YLT. The word "choice" is the same Greek word translated elect. And that choice or election is according to the foreknowledge of God.

That's not what the passage is saying. It says. 'to the elect sojourners of the dispersion, according to foreknowledge (knowing before) grace to you and peace be multiplied. As I said, the dispersion or diaspora are the dispersed Israelites. Israel is God's elect. Peter is saying according to God's knowing them in the past as a people, grace and peace to you be multiplied. The passage isn't talking about God choosing who is saved. It's a greeting Peter is giving to his readers.

So you don't believe that God knows the future???!!

This has nothing to do with the topic and doesn't have a bearing on the meaning of the passage. I believe people incorrectly understand the way the English "foreknowledge" is used in Scripture. The Greek word literally means to before know. I can see how people think it is speaking of God knowing the future before it happens, but that doesn't mean that they're correct. The word is only used like four times in Scripture and in every place when understood as a past knowing it fits the context nicely, thus I believe that is the proper meaning of the word. It's also used in Romans 8:29. Many say this is God knowing ahead of time a certain people and predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying them, however, that doesn't fit the context of what Paul is saying. When it is understood as God knowing in the past it fits nicely the context and Paul's argument.

 

[JLB]

Of course he was. Why do you continue to reject that fact that the gift of God, being eternal life, is irrevocable?

There is no such scripture in the bible.

Of course he was. Why do you continue to reject that fact that the gift of God, being eternal life, is irrevocable? Your credibility has taken a serious hit when you do that. It's as if Rom 11:29 either doesn't apply to eternal life (without any evidence for that) or that you simply ignore it altogether. I cannot understand why you do that.

Romans 11:29 is about the call of God towards the Jews being irrevocable.

Does every Jew have eternal life?

What I am going to ignore is every post of yours that does not have scripture in it.

So far you have only stated your opinion, and then tagged it with a scripture reference.

It seems obvious to me that your understanding of Romans 6 is rather lacking.

The FACT is that the gift of God is eternal life, which is based on faith.

The FACT is that God's gifts are irrevocable. That includes eternal life.

For some inexplicable reason, this isn't computing with you.

Those who choose to present their member as instruments of sin, will reap the wages of sin which is death.

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

wages of sin - Eternal death
obedience of righteousness - Eternal life

Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16



JLB

 

[Deborah13]

That's not what the passage is saying. It says. 'to the elect sojourners of the dispersion, according to foreknowledge (knowing before) grace to you and peace be multiplied. As I said, the dispersion or diaspora are the dispersed Israelites. Israel is God's elect. Peter is saying according to God's knowing them in the past as a people, grace and peace to you be multiplied. The passage isn't talking about God choosing who is saved. It's a greeting Peter is giving to his readers.

I agree with you about this passage in Peter, that he is speaking to the Jews that had been dispersed in the past.
In this scripture in Col. Paul is not speaking to only Jews but all those in Christ.
Col 3:11 where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, servant, freeman--but the all and in all--Christ.
Col 3:12 Put on, therefore, as choice ones of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humble-mindedness, meekness, long-suffering,

This has nothing to do with the topic and doesn't have a bearing on the meaning of the passage. I believe people incorrectly understand the way the English "foreknowledge" is used in Scripture. The Greek word literally means to before know. I can see how people think it is speaking of God knowing the future before it happens, but that doesn't mean that they're correct. The word is only used like four times in Scripture and in every place when understood as a past knowing it fits the context nicely, thus I believe that is the proper meaning of the word. It's also used in Romans 8:29. Many say this is God knowing ahead of time a certain people and predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying them, however, that doesn't fit the context of what Paul is saying. When it is understood as God knowing in the past it fits nicely the context and Paul's argument.

 

[Butch5]

I agree with you about this passage in Peter, that he is speaking to the Jews that had been dispersed in the past.
In this scripture in Col. Paul is not speaking to only Jews but all those in Christ.
Col 3:11 where there is not Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, foreigner, Scythian, servant, freeman--but the all and in all--Christ.
Col 3:12 Put on, therefore, as choice ones of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humble-mindedness, meekness, long-suffering,

I agree, my point in the passage from 1 Peter was really about the issue of foreknowledge. I don't think it's talking about God know future events, I think it's talking about God knowing in past (before).

 

[Deborah13]

I agree, my point in the passage from 1 Peter was really about the issue of foreknowledge. I don't think it's talking about God know future events, I think it's talking about God knowing in past (before).

I'm still trying to get my head around that.

 

[FreeGrace]

That's not what the passage is saying.

Yes, it is.

It says. 'to the elect sojourners of the dispersion, according to foreknowledge (knowing before) grace to you and peace be multiplied.

So, what, specifically, is "according to foreknowledge"?

As I said, the dispersion or diaspora are the dispersed Israelites. Israel is God's elect. Peter is saying according to God's knowing them in the past as a people, grace and peace to you be multiplied.

We disagree. The phrase "according to foreknowledge" refers to the phrase "to the elect sojourners". The word "elect" here is in reference to Jewish believers, not the "chosen Israelites" of the OT.

The passage isn't talking about God choosing who is saved. It's a greeting Peter is giving to his readers.

I didn't say it was about that. It's about God choosing, or electing, based on foreknowledge.

This has nothing to do with the topic and doesn't have a bearing on the meaning of the passage. I believe people incorrectly understand the way the English "foreknowledge" is used in Scripture.

I'm sure people believe that you incorrectly understand the way the English "foreknowledge" is used in Scripture. The only way to support your view is evidence from Scripture.

[QUTOE] The Greek word literally means to before know.[/QUOTE]
Actually, it means "to know before".

I can see how people think it is speaking of God knowing the future before it happens, but that doesn't mean that they're correct.

Are you saying that God doesn't know the future before it happens???

The word is only used like four times in Scripture and in every place when understood as a past knowing it fits the context nicely, thus I believe that is the proper meaning of the word.

I think I see the problem in your understanding. It's not about "past knowing", but what God has always known in the past about current or even future events. iow, it's a "past knowing" about future things.

It's also used in Romans 8:29. Many say this is God knowing ahead of time a certain people and predestining, calling, justifying, and glorifying them, however, that doesn't fit the context of what Paul is saying. When it is understood as God knowing in the past it fits nicely the context and Paul's argument.

But of course the word is about "God knowing in the past". He knew in the past what you do today. That is "past knowing".