Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The Five Points of Calvinism

I can't speak for anyone else, but, I have to wonder why anyone would think that the 12 were elected to salvation when one was lost. Granted salvation is the hope for outcome but hardly a guarantee.
No one is elected to salvation. At least not unconditionally. God is pleased to save those who believe. That's who He chooses to save: believers. 1 Cor 1:21.

The doctrine of unconditional election regarding salvation is not Biblical. Election is not about salvation. It's about service and privilege.
 
We also have Peter's words to consider.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. (Joh 6:67-69 KJV)

I grant you that it is possible that Peter was wrong and that Judas didn't really believe. However, I find that hard to believe since he was there and an eye witness to everything Jesus said and did.
 
No one is elected to salvation. At least not unconditionally. God is pleased to save those who believe. That's who He chooses to save: believers. 1 Cor 1:21.

The doctrine of unconditional election regarding salvation is not Biblical. Election is not about salvation. It's about service and privilege.
I agree!
 
I don't know that he was never considered for salvation, however, he was one of the 12 given to Christ. The passage in question seems to be this one.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. (Joh 6:39 KJV)

Judas was one of them, per Jesus' own words.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. (Joh 17:12 KJV)
Do you think Jesus gave him eternal life as stated in John 17:2? This is spoken generally about the disciples, and I don't think he would be qualifying his statements every time to exclude Judas, it seems assumed until it is stated that he has been lost for the fulfillment of Scripture.
 
We also have Peter's words to consider.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?
68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.
69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. (Joh 6:67-69 KJV)

I grant you that it is possible that Peter was wrong and that Judas didn't really believe. However, I find that hard to believe since he was there and an eye witness to everything Jesus said and did.
I doubt it, this text seems to cast some doubt on that.

"But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)" John 6:64 (ESV)
 
My observations were concerning the identity of the group, not the nature of eternal life.

You say that Jesus prayed for eternal life in this verse? I don't really see that, ...
That's my point. You skipped right past the observation of what Jesus says the nature of Eternal Life is in verse 3. It's no wonder you therefore don't see where Jesus prayed for the very nature of eternal life in v23. Or either you do see it and your presuppositions just get in the way of the implication of it.

v3 is just as important to observe as all the rest of them.
 
That's my point. You skipped right past the observation of what Jesus says the nature of Eternal Life is in verse 3. It's no wonder you therefore don't see where Jesus prayed for the very nature of eternal life in v23. Or either you do see it and your presuppositions just get in the way of the implication of it.

v3 is just as important to observe as all the rest of them.
v3 is one of the most famous texts in Scripture, I understand what it says.

"And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent." John 17:3 (ESV)

Let's compare.

"I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me." John 17:23 (ESV)

The phrase, "know you," is found in both, and also the word, "sent," but that is where the differences end.

Observations:

1) Christ prays that he be in the believers, and they in him.
2) By having Jesus in them, and them being in Christ will serve the mission of having them become perfectly one.
3) This goal of unity is to reveal to the world that God sent Jesus and that he loves them, even as the Father loves Jesus.

So you see, he isn't even saying that eternal life will be given and not taken away to anyone in particular, but rather that through the body of Christ's unity, his love will be revealed and the world will believe.

I think you're simply misreading the text, as you haven't effectively exegeted the passage yet.
 
Do you think Jesus gave him eternal life as stated in John 17:2? This is spoken generally about the disciples, and I don't think he would be qualifying his statements every time to exclude Judas, it seems assumed until it is stated that he has been lost for the fulfillment of Scripture.

I do believe that Judas was lost as Jesus said. However, I do believe that Judas was one given to Christ. I think that is clear from the Scriptures I posted.
 
I doubt it, this text seems to cast some doubt on that.

"But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.)" John 6:64 (ESV)

It's possible. The thing is we are not told one way or the other. That's why I will question people when they say Judas was never saved. I think it's just an assumption. However, my main point is that Judas was given to Christ and John 6:39 speaks of those given to Christ, not those who were saved.
 
As a former Calvinist, I have had to study these passages in depth and have a quite different perspective on them now. Let me know what you think.

To make each of the manageable I will make a new post for each Scripture.

John 10:27

Let's include a little more context.

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand." John 10:27-29 (ESV)

This particular text seems to imply a couple different points of the Calvinists' TULIP. Unconditional election, in that the Father gives these sheep to the son, and Perseverance of the Saints in that he says that no one can snatch them from his hand. This is one of the things that seems so natural for the Calvinist, that texts like this seem to fit in the system so easily.

However, the unspoken assumption is that "those who the Father has given to [Jesus]," are the elect believers. I think that the identity of this group is actually a lot more specific, and it refers to his close disciples.

We learn this in the high priestly prayer.

"since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him." John 17:2 (ESV)

Here again we have a reference to those, "whom you have given him," and this reference is continued. Let's now quickly analyze some observations about this group.

1) Given eternal life to them. (John 17:2)
2) Manifested your name to them. (John 17:6)
3) They have kept Jesus word. (John 17:6)
4) They know that everything given to them is from the Father. (John 17:7)
5) They have heard, received and believed that the Father has sent him. (John 17:8)
6) His prayer is for them, not the world. (John 17:9)
7) They are in the world. (John 17:11)
8) While Jesus was with them, he kept them and not one of them has been lost except the son of perdition. (John 17:12)
9) The world has hated them. (John 17:14)

Now let's make some observations about the observations we made.

Observation #1:
All of these took place in the past, in reference to Jesus' remarks.

For example:
"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word." John 17:6 (ESV)

The bolded words "manifested," and "kept," as well as many others are references to the past. The Greek word translated "manifested," is Ἐφανέρωσά which is in the Aorist tense, which signifies an action completed in the past. While the word, "kept," is from the word τετήρηκαν which is in the perfect tense, which indicates an action performed in the past with consequences going into the future. This would indicate that these people whom the Father have given, have already during Jesus' life kept his word and will continue to.

Observation #2:
That of this group described in the past, only one of them has been lost.

This person is identified as "the son of perdition," which I will contend must be a reference to Judas Iscariot. And this was to "fulfill Scripture." See the Scripture below.

"I am not speaking of all of you; I know whom I have chosen. But the Scripture will be fulfilled, ‘He who ate my bread has lifted his heel against me.’ John 13:18 (ESV)

This text perfectly fits Jesus' statements in the Highly Priestly Prayer, that he chose those close disciples, or rather he chose all those the Father had given him. Yet, one of them was selected for a different purpose, to fulfill the Scripture and to bring about his own crucifixion.

Observation #3:
The final observation which I think proves my case is this verse.

I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word," John 17:20 (ESV)

He transitions his prayer from being specifically for his close disciples, and now prays for all believers. If the first group, "those whom the Father has given to him," could be applied as true to all the elect, then this transition would make no sense. This makes a clear distinction, those chosen by God and given to Jesus to be his close disciples whom Scripture would be fulfilled through and also those who will believe through their word.

Conclusion:

It is easy to read oneself into the text, and make the Scripture seem to support a doctrine like Calvinism, but when we consistently analyze the text to see who it is really referring to, we can see that their interpretation doesn't fit.

:goodpost
 
It's possible. The thing is we are not told one way or the other. That's why I will question people when they say Judas was never saved. I think it's just an assumption. However, my main point is that Judas was given to Christ and John 6:39 speaks of those given to Christ, not those who were saved.
Those given to Christ will be saved, as he says in that very text of John 6:39 that he will lose nothing, and raise them up on the last day. If that's not salvation then I don't know what is.
 
Those given to Christ will be saved, as he says in that very text of John 6:39 that he will lose nothing, and raise them up on the last day. If that's not salvation then I don't know what is.

:amen:thumbsup

Yes, as the reality of salvation will be obtained at the resurrection, when Jesus Christ returns to gather His people at the resurrection/rapture.

so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:28

and again -

whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9

Now, presently we have "faith" for salvation, which is the evidence of things not seen.

...for hope that is seen is not hope, for who hopes for what they see, but now we wait for it with perseverance.


JLB
 
I would suggest that if anyone wants a true perspective of what "Calvinism" really is all about, I suggest that a person should purchase or borrow John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion".
 
Something else to consider when looking into Calvinism is to steer clear of the more liberal of the Reformed churches. Organizations like PCUSA or the CRC are ones to avoid. Organizations such as OPC, PCA, or URC have pastors and elders who are more sound in their theology.
 
Those given to Christ will be saved, as he says in that very text of John 6:39 that he will lose nothing, and raise them up on the last day. If that's not salvation then I don't know what is.

I believe that it says it is God's will that Jesus should lose none. Jesus Himself said that Judas was given to Him and was lost.
 
Judas was given to Jesus as the one who would betray Jesus. It is God's choice to use men like Judas and Pharaoh either to show God's power or in Judas' case the job of betraying Jesus into the hands who would arrest Him.
 
Judas was given to Jesus as the one who would betray Jesus. It is God's choice to use men like Judas and Pharaoh either to show God's power or in Judas' case the job of betraying Jesus into the hands who would arrest Him.
As someone who is not a Calvinist, I wholly agree with these statements. :)
 
Judas was given to Jesus as the one who would betray Jesus. It is God's choice to use men like Judas and Pharaoh either to show God's power or in Judas' case the job of betraying Jesus into the hands who would arrest Him.

I didn't really get into why Judas was given, my point revolves around John 6:39 and those given to Christ. According to Jesus Judas was one of them.
 
Back
Top