Bible Study The Flesh Is Left Out of the New Covenant

[for_his_glory]

Walking in the Spirit never makes the flesh sinless. Jesus saves sinners. That's what today is all about. We die because of sin, and are saved, resurrected by our Savior into a New Body.

Can sinners love one another? Hardly when we are constantly condemning each others to potential hell over sin. Walking in the Spirit is to love one another as Jesus loved us SINNERS. And yes, we can very very easily do that because He Is in us to do so.

The flesh does not cooperate with this walk, and that shows in condemnations to one another.


When we lie about our status as sinners, then the flesh is the victor. When we condemn one another, then the flesh is the victor.

Do I think any of these kinds of claims will prevail in the end? Absolutely not. Jesus will resurrect believers. Every last one of us, even those blinded to our present reality in the flesh. If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't bother sharing the Good News of Christ.

I very much enjoy sharing Paul's sights of himself, his own flesh, his own lusts, his evil present with him, a messenger of Satan in his own sorry hide, with unbelievers. They never hear these facts. When I share these things of Paul with "unbelievers" they are AMAZED. And they understand then that GOD SAVES SINNERS.

We often get an opposite picture from the pulpits. That the Apostles were super human non sinners imbued with Gods Super Powers. They were not. They were ordinary sinners in the flesh just like we are. They did not pretend otherwise. And they entered into the LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST by faith.

It's a beautiful place to abide, in Him. But it's no fun whatsoever to have to lie, to be hypocrites, even though we appear to live better lives than maybe the average joe sinner. That's not the point of our faith or our lives.

2 Corinthians 5:19
that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

And happy Easter/Ressurection celebration day everyone. Go share a slice of Jesus' Love with the world!

Paul's reference to his flesh in Romans 7 was that he was the chief sinner before his conversion and struggled with his flesh and if you read what Paul wrote in Colossians Chapter 3 he says we have died to the flesh as now we seek those things from above as we are hid with Christ in God. Actually read all of Chapter three as Paul, whom you love to quote, shows us how to overcome this sinful flesh.I've listed a few scriptures of what Paul has taught about overcoming the flesh, so is Paul lying to us..............God forbid.

Rom_8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Rom_8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Rom_8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.
Rom_8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom_8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom_8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

 

[smaller]

Paul's reference to his flesh in Romans 7 was that he was the chief sinner before his conversion and struggled with his flesh

No, that was not the case whatsoever. Paul made a very specific claim that says this: "sinners, of whom I am chief. I am is present tense, not past tense. Were it past tense he could have quite easily said WAS or USED TO BE, but he didn't. It took me a long time to see why he didn't say used to be or was. Paul was no lying poser about being a factual sinner AFTER salvation. But we tend to glorify these men and never hear what they really said. Lies and hypocrisy are easy cloaks of the flesh to put on and very hard to get rid of.

and if you read what Paul wrote in Colossians Chapter 3 he says we have died to the flesh

Paul never rid himself of lusts of the flesh. Paul never rid himself of sin dwelling in his flesh. Paul never rid himself of evil present with him. None of these things happened as long as Paul walked the earth in flesh. It just never happened. And he never claimed that it did.

You'll also never hear a person in the pulpit step into these same shoes that Paul did. We just won't hear of it anymore. The days when believers spoke these truths passed away about the same time as Paul did. Fortunately he left a good written record of the facts for us to follow. I'd daresay if it wasn't for Christ's intervention into Paul's life and his ministry, Christianity itself could have been just a long forgotten Jewish sect.

 

[for_his_glory]

No, that was not the case whatsoever. Paul made a very specific claim that says this: "sinners, of whom I am chief. I am is present tense, not past tense. Were it past tense he could have quite easily said WAS or USED TO BE, but he didn't. It took me a long time to see why he didn't say used to be or was. Paul was no lying poser about being a factual sinner AFTER salvation. But we tend to glorify these men and never hear what they really said. Lies and hypocrisy are easy cloaks of the flesh to put on and very hard to get rid of.



Paul never rid himself of lusts of the flesh. Paul never rid himself of sin dwelling in his flesh. Paul never rid himself of evil present with him. None of these things happened as long as Paul walked the earth in flesh. It just never happened. And he never claimed that it did.

You'll also never hear a person in the pulpit step into these same shoes that Paul did. We just won't hear of it anymore. The days when believers spoke these truths passed away about the same time as Paul did. Fortunately he left a good written record of the facts for us to follow. I'd daresay if it wasn't for Christ's intervention into Paul's life and his ministry, Christianity itself could have been just a long forgotten Jewish sect.

If Paul lived such a miserable life by allowing his flesh to control him then why would he give us instruction on how to overcome the lust of the flesh unless you do not believe what he wrote in Colossians chapter 3.

Many of us have tried to show you the victory over the flesh in scripture as we do not allow it to reign in our life any more by that of the blood of Jesus. Even though the lust of the flesh is ever present and tempting us all the time as it did Paul and all those before him and after him we have now learned by the example of Jesus in Matthew 4:10 that we no longer serve the flesh, but serve only God as we know those temptations come by Satan and Jesus already won the victory over Satan for all who by faith believe in Him as even the devils believe and tremble at His name, James 2:19.

 

[smaller]

If Paul lived such a miserable life by allowing his flesh to control him then why would he give us instruction on how to overcome the lust of the flesh unless you do not believe what he wrote in Colossians chapter 3.

Who said it was miserable? I think Paul was quite delighted that God in Christ saves sinners, of whom he most assuredly was.

Many of us have tried to show you the victory over the flesh in scripture as we do not allow it to reign in our life any more by that of the blood of Jesus.

If having "victory" over the flesh means we lie about being sinners, about having lusts in mind, about having evil present with us, and we turn into hypocrites, I'd hardly call that any kind of victory. I'd be ashamed of doing that myself. Really ashamed. It's exactly because of these states of fact that we need our Savior and His Grace and Mercy. And Paul gloried in the factual weakness of his own sorry hide.

God does save the afflicted, donchaknow? 2 Sam. 22:28

Even though the lust of the flesh is ever present and tempting us all the time as it did Paul

Well, that is just an entirely brilliant and truthful conclusion. Congratulations! So does that mean then that we deny our factual state? Never. The Spirit continually WARS with our own flesh, or more "precisely" the impetus that is behind it, which is demonic attack. Do we let our attacker off the hook? Never!

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Just have to remember WHO we are warring against. It's NOT ourselves. It's our adversary.

 

[for_his_glory]

Who said it was miserable? I think Paul was quite delighted that God in Christ saves sinners, of whom he most assuredly was.


If having "victory" over the flesh means we lie about being sinners, about having lusts in mind, about having evil present with us, and we turn into hypocrites, I'd hardly call that any kind of victory. I'd be ashamed of doing that myself. Really ashamed. It's exactly because of these states of fact that we need our Savior and His Grace and Mercy. And Paul gloried in the factual weakness of his own sorry hide.

God does save the afflicted, donchaknow? 2 Sam. 22:28



Well, that is just an entirely brilliant and truthful conclusion. Congratulations! So does that mean then that we deny our factual state? Never. The Spirit continually WARS with our own flesh, or more "precisely" the impetus that is behind it, which is demonic attack. Do we let our attacker off the hook? Never!

Romans 7:23
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Just have to remember WHO we are warring against. It's NOT ourselves. It's our adversary.

If I say I am not a sinner than I lie to myself as I am a sinner saved by grace. Do I mess up at times, yes, but only by what my emotions causes me to speak out of my mouth. That which is spoken can not be retracted as it has gone out to do that which it was sent to accomplish. Should I just let those words sit their or should I ask forgiveness of that person I might of hurt by my words? God has already forgiven me even before I ask as He knows my heart and sets my feet straight again.

Emotions are what we war against as those seven things God hates He has given instruction how to overcome them. It is hard for us to control our emotions at times because we still live in this fleshly body, but without excuse.

Proverbs 6:2 Thou art snared with the words of thy mouth, thou art taken with the words of thy mouth.
Proverbs 6:3 Do this now, my son, and deliver thyself, when thou art come into the hand of thy friend; go, humble thyself, and make sure thy friend.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
Proverbs 6:17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
Proverbs 6:18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
Proverbs 6:19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
Proverbs 6:20 My son, keep thy father's commandment, and forsake not the law of thy mother:
Proverbs 6:21 Bind them continually upon thine heart, and tie them about thy neck.
Proverbs 6:22 When thou goest, it shall lead thee; when thou sleepest, it shall keep thee; and when thou awakest, it shall talk with thee.
Proverbs 6:23 For the commandment is a lamp; and the law is light; and reproofs of instruction are the way of life:

 

[Jim Parker]

I'm sorry you were taught that Jim.

It's what Jesus taught. Don't believe me. Read it for yourself. Mat 25:31-46
Jesus said He would judge YOU based on what YOU did or did not do.
You can believe Him or not. It's your choice.
It's also what He said at John 5:28-29 (NKJV)
… the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth—
those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

It's also what Paul taught.
Ro 6:2-10 (NKJV) (God) will render to each one according to his deeds; eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
Maybe you don't believe him either.

No one does sheep works 24/7.

I don't think anyone said we're expected to.
I think the idea is that we are to strive to do so.
Paul said he didn't claim to have reached a point at which he was sure he would experience the resurrection of the righteous.
Phl 3:8-15
Yet indeed I also count all things loss for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; that I may know Him and the power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, if, by any means, I may attain to the resurrection from the dead. Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.
Then Paul goes on to say we should imitate him and also press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

BUt, meditate on this verse.
Mat 5:48 (RSV) You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
I didn't say that; Jesus did.


iakov the fool




By reading the words posted above, you have chosen to expose yourself to the rantings of iakov the fool. (HIyah! )
The poster assumes no responsibility for any temporary, permanent or otherwise annoying manifestations of cognitive dysfunction that may result.
No warrantee is expressed or implied. Individual mileage may vary. Enjoy the rest of your life. (BYE! )

 

[Jim Parker]

If I have completely died to self then free will no longer reigns

Nonsense.
It by the employment of your free will that you choose to pursue holiness in spite of the demands of the flesh.
It is by the employment of your free will that you choose to obey God's commands in spite of the demands of the flesh.
You don't become some kind of puppet who is "possessed" by the Holy Spirit and Who takes over your life.

 

[Jim Parker]

There is not a believer among us who has removed or eliminated this contrary state of the flesh by THEIR WORKS, ever.

That's true. The flesh will always be at war against the Spirit.
So we are told "if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live."
We don't do good works to eliminate the lusts of the flesh. We do good works because that's what God created us to do.
And Paul told us to subdue the flesh.
1Co 9:24-27 (RSV) Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

 

[for_his_glory]

Nonsense. It by the employment of your free will that you choose to pursue holiness in spite of the demands of the flesh. It is by the employment of your free will that you choose to obey God's commands in spite of the demands of the flesh. You don't become some kind of puppet who is "possessed" by the Holy Spirit and Who takes over your life.

I agree it was my freewill choice to follow Christ, but it is no longer my will as Christ in me and I in Him, but the will of God that I adhere to. Is it my choice, no, as if I am not in the will of God then I am none of His, Romans 8:9. It's not my choice anymore since truth has entered into me and I have picked up my cross to follow Jesus as in Him who is now in me Gods will will be done, Matthew 6:10, as I have died to self or in other words have also partaken of His death and resurrection it is Gods will I follow.

 

[Jim Parker]

I agree it was my freewill choice to follow Christ, but it is no longer my will as Christ in me and I in Him, but the will of God that I adhere to. Is it my choice, no, as if I am not in the will of God then I am none of His, Romans 8:9. It's not my choice anymore since truth has entered into me and I have picked up my cross to follow Jesus as in Him who is now in me Gods will will be done, Matthew 6:10, as I have died to self or in other words have also partaken of His death and resurrection it is Gods will I follow.

You make a free will choice to follow Christ.
You make a free will choice every day to take up your cross and follow Jesus. The Holy Spirit doesn't force you.
You make free will choices every time you are tempted, either to give in or to resist. The Holy Spirit doesn't force you.
You make a free will choice to pray. The Holy Spirit doesn't force you.
You make free will choices to do acts of mercy and kindness. The Holy Spirit doesn't force you.
You're not God's little puppet with the Holy Spirit working your arms and legs and mouth with God being a ventriloquist putting words in your mouth.
You are responsible for everything you do before God and man BECAUSE you have free will.

If mankind does not have free will then God is unjust to judge ANYONE since, without free will, no one is responsible for anything he does.

iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

That's true. The flesh will always be at war against the Spirit.
So we are told "if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live."
We don't do good works to eliminate the lusts of the flesh. We do good works because that's what God created us to do.
And Paul told us to subdue the flesh.
1Co 9:24-27 (RSV) Do you not know that in a race all the runners compete, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it. Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.

The flesh is and remains contrary to the Spirit. There is no way around this fact. Not by works, assuredly. Gal. 5:17. Every good work that Paul did was done with evil present with him. Romans 7:21.

Not taking on that fact covers us with the cloak of darkness, which is hypocrisy. The worst spiritual state there is for any believer. Exemplified by the blinded pharisee in Luke 18, in the lying hypocritical claim that he was not "like" other men. It was the covering of false righteousness, of hypocrisy, of lying to Gods Face, that the man thought he gained for himself, by his works:

8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Hypocrisy covers. Truth exposes.

 

[smaller]

If I say I am not a sinner than I lie to myself as I am a sinner saved by grace. Do I mess up at times, yes,

We mess up at all times. Sin is a factual habitation in our own flesh. Evil is present with us, in our own conscience. These are not "from time to time" conditions. We are presently covered in these things in the flesh/mind. And these cover us, that we might learn the value of the fruit of honesty and the heavenly meal of humble pie.

1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Simple lesson, seldom learned. The flesh is by nature, PROUD of itself.

 

[for_his_glory]

We mess up at all times. Sin is a factual habitation in our own flesh. Evil is present with us, in our own conscience. These are not "from time to time" conditions. We are presently covered in these things in the flesh/mind. And these cover us, that we might learn the value of the fruit of honesty and the heavenly meal of humble pie.

1 Corinthians 1:29
That no flesh should glory in his presence.

Simple lesson, seldom learned. The flesh is by nature, PROUD of itself.

I'm covered by the blood of the Lamb and clothed in Gods righteousness so I no longer bow to the temptations that the flesh loves to produce in us and say "get thee behind me Satan the cross before me, the world behind" ................glory to God on high.

 

[smaller]

I'm covered by the blood of the Lamb and clothed in Gods righteousness so I no longer bow to the temptations that the flesh loves to produce in us and say "get thee behind me Satan the cross before me, the world behind" ................glory to God on high.

We can make any claims we like to heap upon our flesh.

The Spirit is and will remain ACTIVELY contrary to it, regardless. Gal. 5:17.

The evil present with Paul, the sin dwelling in his flesh was NOT excused by The Spirit. That never happened. To say such is to condone evil and to condone sin. Which can't happen, truthfully.

 

[for_his_glory]

We can make any claims we like to heap upon our flesh.

The Spirit is and will remain ACTIVELY contrary to it, regardless. Gal. 5:17.

The evil present with Paul, the sin dwelling in his flesh was NOT excused by The Spirit. That never happened. To say such is to condone evil and to condone sin. Which can't happen, truthfully.

A carnal Christian (those who give lip service) will live in the flesh, a Spiritually born again Christian will live in the Spirit, choose you this day whom you will serve as you can not serve two masters, Matthew 6:24.

 

[smaller]

A carnal Christian (those who give lip service) will live in the flesh, a Spiritually born again Christian will live in the Spirit, choose you this day whom you will serve as you can not serve two masters, Matthew 6:24.

No choice will eliminate the Spirit from being against the flesh. It can't happen no matter how rosy we want to see the flesh.

Let's see the flesh for what it is, and be truthful in the process. But you see, this WILL stick in the craw of the flesh and it, the FLESH, will not and can not take on what the Spirit has to say to it, because it IS contrary and will not, can not hear.

Gal. 5:17 can not be re-written. It can be understood if one is "in the Spirit" to hear it.

 

[for_his_glory]

No choice will eliminate the Spirit from being against the flesh. It can't happen no matter how rosy we want to see the flesh.

Let's see the flesh for what it is, and be truthful in the process. But you see, this WILL stick in the craw of the flesh and it, the FLESH, will not and can not take on what the Spirit has to say to it, because it IS contrary and will not, can not hear.

Gal. 5:17 can not be re-written. It can be understood if one is "in the Spirit" to hear it.

For the last time smaller, we know the flesh will always be contrary to the Spirit. Why not start teaching how to overcome it, even though we will always be tempted by it, rather then giving place to it. I give no place to the flesh other than knowing Gods grace is sufficient in our weakness as we are all sinners saved by Gods grace. Grace pardons us and mercy loves us.

 

[smaller]

For the last time smaller, we know the flesh will always be contrary to the Spirit. Why not start teaching how to overcome it,

I might say a very small step is to simply be honest about the factual condition of the VILE BODY. Phil. 3:21.

No actions done by any of us is going to change that, other than the power of God in Christ Himself CHANGING the body, which is where the goalpost is set. And that is entirely in His Own Power to do so, not ours.

In the meantime I might think honesty is the best policy.

 

[Jim Parker]

The flesh is and remains contrary to the Spirit. There is no way around this fact. Not by works, assuredly. Gal. 5:17. Every good work that Paul did was done with evil present with him. Romans 7:21.

Not taking on that fact covers us with the cloak of darkness, which is hypocrisy. The worst spiritual state there is for any believer. Exemplified by the blinded pharisee in Luke 18, in the lying hypocritical claim that he was not "like" other men. It was the covering of false righteousness, of hypocrisy, of lying to Gods Face, that the man thought he gained for himself, by his works:

8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

Hypocrisy covers. Truth exposes.

Yeah. I think we agree. Jesus slammed the scribes and pharisees for the great show of personal holiness they put on for all to see but were full of greed, malice and envy on the inside.
Jesus also said that when we give (or do any good work) do it quietly and privately and "don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing." If we make a big show of how well and often we do the good works for which God made us, (Eph 2:10) then we have gotten our reward; the admiration of men. big whoopie. Who needs it? Better to hear, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." than "Hosanna!" on Sunday and "Crucify him!" on Friday. So much for the admiration of men.

iakov the fool

 

[smaller]

Yeah. I think we agree. Jesus slammed the scribes and pharisees for the great show of personal holiness they put on for all to see but were full of greed, malice and envy on the inside.
Jesus also said that when we give (or do any good work) do it quietly and privately and "don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing." If we make a big show of how well and often we do the good works for which God made us, (Eph 2:10) then we have gotten our reward; the admiration of men. big whoopie. Who needs it? Better to hear, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." than "Hosanna!" on Sunday and "Crucify him!" on Friday. So much for the admiration of men.

Imagine that?!

I've found it very easy to "get along" with other believers when we are able to meet on the ground of facts, that our flesh profits nothing. Kinda evens the field for all of us, no?

I personally am acutely aware of this contrary state of the flesh, so, likewise it is kept where it belongs by honesty. I'll not let this contrary state deceive me into thinking it is "otherwise" by any actions performed. In this we do shed the cloak of hypocrisy, even though it is a bit of a bitter pill to swallow for our own sorry hide.

And yes, there is a certain amount of resistance that comes with this territory.

It is NOT because the flesh itself, as organic material, is evil. But it is subject to evil, sin indwelling it, and those workings are of our adversary, the tempter. Understanding this will make us question "every thought" because not every thought is our own. This is at the heart of this contrary state of the "flesh." Eph. 6:11-12. However hard a believer 'works' they won't be able to justify their flesh OR the workings of the tempter therein. That's where and how I draw the line and understand the contrariness.

And, the reward that comes from this is the spiritual fruit of honesty.

Luke 8:15
But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

Let's say I have a particular dislike for the flesh claiming otherwise, because I know "who" that claim is from and it's NOT from the believers.

Romans 13:
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.

When we see what Paul tells us in Romans 13 we should see that we do have works of darkness to cast off. Lying hypocrisy is the hardest cloak there is to overcome, and that is especially so when we are confronted with seeing that it IS from our adversary.

I'm pretty sure Paul didn't care for the fact that he had a messenger of Satan in his own flesh, but at least he was HONEST ENOUGH to reveal that to us. 2 Cor. 12:7

And when we see that we'll also see the reality of his claim in being the chief of sinners after salvation, 1 Tim. 1:15, because he wasn't looking at only himself, but to his adversary in the flesh.

Sad state of the flesh, but truthful sight on Paul's part, openly exposed. And yes, Apostles are singled out for greater attacks. Anyone in the ministry knows this. But it's seldom revealed as to WHY.

How many of us in our prideful flesh think we are better than the other sinners? I'd say it's a fairly common affliction imposed by spiritual darkness.

Pomp and ceremony will never make much of an impression on me. Truth makes a much deeper impression.