[_ Old Earth _] The Flood

[Blazin Bones]

That, I just don't know. I'm not too great in earth science. That's where the mysteries of God are to great to explain.

 

[sheseala]

You can see where I'm having issues with it being global, right?

 

[keebs]

I see your problem exactly. For me, the bible relies on magic and the supernatural too much...

 

[Blazin Bones]

For me, the bible relies on magic and the supernatural too much...

Keebs wouldn't be easier for you just to say God, or is your disbelief that deep that you won't even say his name?

 

[cubedbee]

Indeed you were put on the spot. Sheseala, I'm glad to meet you. 8-) I believe it was global, because even the ancient Babylonians have a similar flood account. Plus, I take the Bible as fact, but the evolutionists here should already know that.

Where do you think Noah was living before the flood started? Given that his ancestors lived in the Babylon region, and his descendents as late as Abraham also lived there, I would suspect that is where Noah was as well. The fact that the Babylonians have a similar tale tells me that the flood did happen. The fact that Babylon is where Noah lived tells me that this could easily be a local flood.

 

[ThinkerMan]

That, I just don't know. I'm not too great in earth science. That's where the mysteries of God are to great to explain.

Here's where you "god of the gaps" runs into problems.

You cannot explain it (in this case through a simple lack of understanding...no offense intended), thus you ascribe God the credit for it.

When in fact these issues are adequately explained by science. Or I should say, found to be impossible through science.

It is evident that if God did make a global flood occur, he would have had to drastically go around almost every rule of physics that we know of. The earth and physical laws of a pre-flood universe would be DRASTICALLY different.

And don't creationists like to point to the fact that even one minor change to the laws of physics would render life, if not the universe, impossible? That the laws of physics are so perfect, so exact, that that means God had to have created them? Well that argument doesn't work here, since different physical laws have had to existed prior to or during the flood.

Could an omnipotent God do that? Perhaps. But it defies reason to believe that all that actually happened because a 3,500 year old yarn says he does (actually older, since it was based on another culture's old yarn).

It still doesn't make a ton of sense....if God was that fed up with the people at that time, why kill them all and start over with Noah. Why not just start over completely? I mean, Adam and Eve were obvious failures. Their immediate descendents seem to be screwups as well, since God kills all of them save Noah.

Make's more sense just to create a new universe, put Satan in his place, and have happy little humans under our happy little water canopy.

 

[Blazin Bones]

I see where you are coming from ThinkerMan, but I've already shown where God has delayed science for His Glory. That's why we can say God knows better than us, He proven that he does.

 

[cubedbee]

But the atmosphere holds only so much, there is a balance.

Not if God's holding the vapor in suspense. It would not be the first time God froze a part of nature.

JOS 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
JOS 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. [KJV]

So tell me, does the sun orbit the Earth? If not, why doesn't God seem to know this fact? Is it possible that the writers are inspired to write by God, but are left to fill in the details according to their own, incorrect worldview?

 

[ThinkerMan]

But the atmosphere holds only so much, there is a balance.

Not if God's holding the vapor in suspense. It would not be the first time God froze a part of nature.

JOS 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
JOS 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. [KJV]

So tell me, does the sun orbit the Earth? If not, why doesn't God seem to know this fact? Is it possible that the writers are inspired to write by God, but are left to fill in the details according to their own, incorrect worldview?

And if the Earth stopped rotating (to make the sun stand still) that doesn't solve it either.

Right now, near the equator at least, you are traveling at about 1,000 MPH in relation to the center of the earth. If the earth stopped rotating, you would still be going 1,000 MPH, likely throwing every person on earth a few hundred yards and causing instant death. This would be the equivilent of crashing an airplane going Mach 2.

Every building would collapse, mountains would fall, tidal waves would ravage the earth and some pretty major earthquakes would be rumbling. Volcanos would erupt. Some pretty bad stuff.

However, if this battle took place at the north or south pole, they would not be thrown down, since they are not moving in relation to the center of the earth (just spinning very slowly). In this case, they could fight their battle for a little bit until the tidal waves and earthquakes killed them all.

 

[Asimov]

But the atmosphere holds only so much, there is a balance.

Not if God's holding the vapor in suspense. It would not be the first time God froze a part of nature.

JOS 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
JOS 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day. [KJV]

So tell me, does the sun orbit the Earth? If not, why doesn't God seem to know this fact? Is it possible that the writers are inspired to write by God, but are left to fill in the details according to their own, incorrect worldview?

And if the Earth stopped rotating (to make the sun stand still) that doesn't solve it either.

Right now, near the equator at least, you are traveling at about 1,000 MPH in relation to the center of the earth. If the earth stopped rotating, you would still be going 1,000 MPH, likely throwing every person on earth a few hundred yards and causing instant death. This would be the equivilent of crashing an airplane going Mach 2.

Every building would collapse, mountains would fall, tidal waves would ravage the earth and some pretty major earthquakes would be rumbling. Volcanos would erupt. Some pretty bad stuff.

However, if this battle took place at the north or south pole, they would not be thrown down, since they are not moving in relation to the center of the earth (just spinning very slowly). In this case, they could fight their battle for a little bit until the tidal waves and earthquakes killed them all.

Not to mention the friction that would burn up everyone.

 

[Asimov]

Tua, you are correct in saying there is no particular passage that states it had never rained before, just as there is no passage that says it did. As for the extreme evaporation, as I pointed out to my good friend keebs, it would not be the first time God had altered nature for His Glory.

Yes, Brutus, I'm sure he can alter nature for His Glory...but so far, except in the Bible, God has not altered nature for His Glory.

And you are not even providing biblical proof that there was no rain or extreme evaporation...so it's not even biblical!

 

[sheseala]

I'm also wondering what percentage fo the water was from the sky and what was from the earth.

That and how much above sea level did the water have to rise.

 

[ThinkerMan]

I'm also wondering what percentage fo the water was from the sky and what was from the earth.

That and how much above sea level did the water have to rise.

Well, if it supposedly rose 15 cubits above the mountains, that puts it at 29,335 ft about sea level (about 300 feet higher than Mt. Everest at 29,035 - though it was likely a bit shorter then). Remember, YEC like to use seashells on Mt. Everest as proof the flood, so we must assume the "mountains" includes the tallest one.

I did a tad of quick math.

That much water, from sea level to 29,335 is this many gallons.

1.2081 X 10(21st power) gallons

The volume of the earth's oceans is 3.612 x 10(20th power) gallons.
Source - http://pao.cnmoc.navy.mil/educate/neptu ... /earth.htm

So, we need roughly 3 times the water in the oceans to get that flood.

That's an awful lot of water.

 

[Blazin Bones]

First off, I never stated that theory to be fact, merely a suggestion witch to Christians could be reasonable. Now for my friends who are not Christians, I really don't have an explaination for the flood that is any better. Science is not my strong suit.

Tua, I've already agreed that there is not a verse saying that it had never rained before, but as you may observe in my previous posts, there is not a verse that says it had either.

Now if you wish to attack me with this "once again, God in the Gaps" point then go ahead. I agree that's one of your best arguements for disproving the bible. Except for one thing which scares you, what if God really was in the gaps. I know the Bible is a bunch of lies to most of you, but in the end the bible will have the clearest explaination for every thing we humans don't understand, The One True God. God's Blessings

 

[Asimov]

Tua, I've already agreed that there is not a verse saying that it had never rained before, but as you may observe in my previous posts, there is not a verse that says it had either.

hahahaha...that's hilarious Brutus. You assume that because it doesn't say it didn't rain rain, that it didn't rain? Obviously we need rain to survive, so there was rain.

I agree that's one of your best arguements for disproving the bible.

It's not a method of disproving the Bible, Brutus. It's called a logical fallacy that you use in order to try and show your religion is right. Just like circular reasoning.

Except for one thing which scares you, what if God really was in the gaps. I know the Bible is a bunch of lies to most of you, but in the end the bible will have the clearest explaination for every thing we humans don't understand, The One True God. God's Blessings

It has nothing to do with fear, Brutus. It has everything to do with you rationalizing what we don't know, by saying "Goddidit". This has happened for centuries, which started with lightning, rain, and earthquakes. Once we attained reasons for why these things happened, religious zealots filled God into the gaps that we didn't know. That is until we figured out that the Earth orbits the Sun...etc.

 

[Blazin Bones]

Tua, it's everything to do with fear, God causes all that science explains. God has allowed us to understand the world we live in, but this is not a topic for this forum. Let's get back to the flood. 8-)

 

[ThinkerMan]

Tua, it's everything to do with fear, God causes all that science explains. God has allowed us to understand the world we live in, but this is not a topic for this forum. Let's get back to the flood. 8-)

Fine...where did the water come from and where did it go?

 

[Blazin Bones]

Good Question, any suggestions?

 

[mh13]

I'm also wondering what percentage fo the water was from the sky and what was from the earth.

That and how much above sea level did the water have to rise.

Well, if it supposedly rose 15 cubits above the mountains, that puts it at 29,335 ft about sea level (about 300 feet higher than Mt. Everest at 29,035 - though it was likely a bit shorter then). Remember, YEC like to use seashells on Mt. Everest as proof the flood, so we must assume the "mountains" includes the tallest one.

I did a tad of quick math.

That much water, from sea level to 29,335 is this many gallons.

1.2081 X 10(21st power) gallons

The volume of the earth's oceans is 3.612 x 10(20th power) gallons.
Source - http://pao.cnmoc.navy.mil/educate/neptu ... /earth.htm

So, we need roughly 3 times the water in the oceans to get that flood.

That's an awful lot of water.

There's a flaw in your thinking here. You're assuming that there were tall mountains at the time of the flood like we have today.. Psalm 104 shows that the mountains arose after the flood

 

[ThinkerMan]

Interesting...haven't heard that.

I read that Psalm a few times just now...can you tell how you come to that conclusion.

Thanks..