The God Delusion

[Dorothy Mae]

Not true. God is love and is not mad at the devil -- or at anyone for that matter. This doesn't change the fact that God opposes the devil.

Has God forgiven the Devil and let him and the demons into Heaven? Forgiveness, by the way, isn’t connected to being mad.

 

[Exeter]

Eph 5:3-7 But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be mentioned among you, as becomes saints; (4) nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not appropriate; but rather giving of thanks. (5) Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. (6) Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. (7) Therefore don’t be partakers with them.

Link To & Quote From Interesting Article: The Rapture & the End Time Wrath of God We Avoid

Thumos Wrath vs Orge Wrath of God​

Many people assume that the three passages above mean that Christians are not subject to any wrath. However, few are aware that the Greek language distinguishes between different types of wrath mainly through the use of the words orge and thumos.

• Thayer defines thumos as “passion, angry heat, […] anger forthwith boiling up and soon subsiding again” and orge as “indignation which has arisen gradually and become more settled…” [1]

The difference between the two terms is the nature of the wrath.

• Thumos represents a temporary surge of anger that will rise and quickly subside.
• Orge represents anger that lasts for a prolonged period.

Regarding God’s wrath in an end time context,

• Thumos is the wrath that God will exhibit against the wicked as they refuse to respond to efforts encouraging them to repent.
• Orge is God’s longstanding wrath against the wicked, who He will punish with lasting consequences (i.e. eternity in the lake of fire).

The word orge appears in 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, Romans 5:8-10, and 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, so orge is the type of wrath that Christians are not subject to. Therefore, Christians are not subject to God’s deliberate, long-standing wrath against the wicked.

 

[Exeter]

Not true. God is love and is not mad at the devil -- or at anyone for that matter. This doesn't change the fact that God opposes the devil

The Apocalypse Of The Wrath Of God:

(Rev 6:16) and said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb!
(Rev 6:17) For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"
(Rev 11:18) The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."
(Rev 14:10) he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
(Rev 14:19) So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
(Rev 15:1) Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.
(Rev 15:7) Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.
(Rev 16:1) Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, "Go and pour out the bowls of the wrath of God on the earth."
(Rev 16:19) Now the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
(Rev 19:15) Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Eph 5:3-7 But sexual immorality, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not even be mentioned among you, as becomes saints; (4) nor filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not appropriate; but rather giving of thanks. (5) Know this for sure, that no sexually immoral person, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ and God. (6) Let no one deceive you with empty words. For because of these things, the wrath of God comes on the children of disobedience. (7) Therefore don’t be partakers with them.

Link To & Quote From Interesting Article: The Rapture & the End Time Wrath of God We Avoid

Thumos Wrath vs Orge Wrath of God​

Many people assume that the three passages above mean that Christians are not subject to any wrath. However, few are aware that the Greek language distinguishes between different types of wrath mainly through the use of the words orge and thumos.

• Thayer defines thumos as “passion, angry heat, […] anger forthwith boiling up and soon subsiding again” and orge as “indignation which has arisen gradually and become more settled…” [1]

The difference between the two terms is the nature of the wrath.

• Thumos represents a temporary surge of anger that will rise and quickly subside.
• Orge represents anger that lasts for a prolonged period.

Regarding God’s wrath in an end time context,

• Thumos is the wrath that God will exhibit against the wicked as they refuse to respond to efforts encouraging them to repent.
• Orge is God’s longstanding wrath against the wicked, who He will punish with lasting consequences (i.e. eternity in the lake of fire).

The word orge appears in 1 Thessalonians 5:9-10, Romans 5:8-10, and 1 Thessalonians 1:9-10, so orge is the type of wrath that Christians are not subject to. Therefore, Christians are not subject to God’s deliberate, long-standing wrath against the wicked.

I can tell you from personal experience any wrath of God is extremely unpleasant.

 

[D-D-W]

Incidentally, I am not so affeared of philosophy as the authors of the Bible seem to be. Philosophy is grounded on logical argument, and who but God could have created logic?

No - it is just a DIFFERENT type of logic than you are used to. God's logic. Formally it is called Hebrew Block Logic or Adductive logic. It is quite distinct from western Deductive and Inductive logic.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Incidentally, I am not so affeared of philosophy as the authors of the Bible seem to be. Philosophy is grounded on logical argument, and who but God could have created logic?

Best wishes, 2RM.

Why do you think the authors of the Bible fear logic? God, as they wrote of Him and knew Him to be, is completely logical.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

No - it is just a DIFFERENT type of logic than you are used to. God's logic. Formally it is called Hebrew Block Logic or Adductive logic. It is quite distinct from western Deductive and Inductive logic.

I don’t think it’s different. Hebrew metaphors are very different but the logic is the same. Jesus’ answers to those trying to trick him were impeccably logical. Solomon’s approach to the two mothers was flawlessly logical.

 

[D-D-W]

I don’t think it’s different. Hebrew metaphors are very different but the logic is the same. Jesus’ answers to those trying to trick him were impeccably logical. Solomon’s approach to the two mothers was flawlessly logical.

Please consider the following:

SermonIndex.net Audio Sermons - Sermon Index

Founded in 2002. The mission of SermonIndex is the preservation and propagation of classical Biblical preaching and the promotion of Christ-centered revival to this generation.

www.sermonindex.net

The Philosophy of the Hebrew Language | AHRC

Jeff A. Benner is dedicated to researching and teaching the Biblical Hebrew text of the Bible based on the Ancient Hebrew culture and language. Resources include the Ancient Hebrew alphabet, Paleo-Hebrew inscriptions, dictionary, translations, root word studies and learn Biblical Hebrew course.

www.ancient-hebrew.org

2 Adductive Logic in Torah - Logic Philosophy Spirituality

Chapter2.ADDUCTIVE LOGIC IN THETORAH. This chapter is intended mainly for historians of logic, or historians of philosophy, though it includes a brief overview of epistemology of value to all, and some interesting comments on prophecy. 1. The Art of Knowing. 2. Adduction in Western Philosophy...

www.thelogician.net

Greek Linear Logic vs. Hebrew Step Logic

What follows is an excerpt from an excellent article written by Jeff A. Benner, Director of the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. Here he...

jandyongenesis.blogspot.com

 

[PeterJens]

So, the well known atheist, Richard Dawkins, published this book a few years ago, and I consider it required reading for every believer. Unless we know the arguments put to us by the other side, we cannot hope to counter them. If you've read his book, what do you make of it?

Best wishes 2RM.

This is a common point made by many.

I have another perspective. Understanding emotionally why God is hated so much by people who have an anti-moral outlook is the real delusion. Let me make the proposition. All our positions come from an emotional perspective driven by positions, likes and dislikes which colour our thoughts and expressions. We love to suggest we have truth, but the reality is we have where our hearts are, and will mould truth to fit that, rather than the other way around.

Nietzshe created a world view that excused his rejection of his father and his fathers faith and resolved the deep hurt of his fathers early death. He probably never realised his denial of real emotional love for his family and friends defined him, and he spent his adult years destroying the very thing that made him who he was, while thinking it was just facing up to the reality that nothing has any meaning.

Jesus speaks emotional truth, from the Father to His children. He is humble, meek, loving, wanting the best, and offering it to those who will listen. To those who focus of "facts" without relationship context deny themselves, their contradictions and problems, and the facts will never help them find the life they so desperately need. Until we have sorted our emotional realities out, we cannot help anyone else.

What struck me as odd is Jesus declared he had told everything the Father had told Him to his disciples. It is because this was not facts or reams of complex issues or perspectives, but clear meaningful priorities and realities which the Father will honour. So in a sense the spiritual war has never been on the God delusion plain, but on the emotional life reality plain, and our limited grasp of ourselves and love itself. God bless you.

 

[andy pandy]

A general piece of advice is "know your enemy."

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Please consider the following:

SermonIndex.net Audio Sermons - Sermon Index

Founded in 2002. The mission of SermonIndex is the preservation and propagation of classical Biblical preaching and the promotion of Christ-centered revival to this generation.

www.sermonindex.net

The Philosophy of the Hebrew Language | AHRC

Jeff A. Benner is dedicated to researching and teaching the Biblical Hebrew text of the Bible based on the Ancient Hebrew culture and language. Resources include the Ancient Hebrew alphabet, Paleo-Hebrew inscriptions, dictionary, translations, root word studies and learn Biblical Hebrew course.

www.ancient-hebrew.org

2 Adductive Logic in Torah - Logic Philosophy Spirituality

Chapter2.ADDUCTIVE LOGIC IN THETORAH. This chapter is intended mainly for historians of logic, or historians of philosophy, though it includes a brief overview of epistemology of value to all, and some interesting comments on prophecy. 1. The Art of Knowing. 2. Adduction in Western Philosophy...

www.thelogician.net

Greek Linear Logic vs. Hebrew Step Logic

What follows is an excerpt from an excellent article written by Jeff A. Benner, Director of the Ancient Hebrew Research Center. Here he...

jandyongenesis.blogspot.com

You know, I’m not conversing with them. I’m talking to you. I’d like to know what you, a living man, think, not a carefully edited published piece by someone not here. So please present your thoughts.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Pretty interesting…

This is a common point made by many.

I have another perspective. Understanding emotionally why God is hated so much by people who have an anti-moral outlook is the real delusion. Let me make the proposition. All our positions come from an emotional perspective driven by positions, likes and dislikes which colour our thoughts and expressions. We love to suggest we have truth, but the reality is we have where our hearts are, and will mould truth to fit that, rather than the other way around.

There are those who derive their conclusions from logical and rational endeavors, not emotional. The truth makes us free. Letting emotions run you is a cage. And emotions, btw, are only the response of realizations (thinking.)

Nietzshe created a world view that excused his rejection of his father and his fathers faith and resolved the deep hurt of his fathers early death. He probably never realised his denial of real emotional love for his family and friends defined him, and he spent his adult years destroying the very thing that made him who he was, while thinking it was just facing up to the reality that nothing has any meaning.

Jesus speaks emotional truth, from the Father to His children. He is humble, meek, loving, wanting the best, and offering it to those who will listen. To those who focus of "facts" without relationship context deny themselves, their contradictions and problems, and the facts will never help them find the life they so desperately need. Until we have sorted our emotional realities out, we cannot help anyone else.

I strongly disagree. It’s those who have discipline in the mind keeping emotions under control who can help others. The mind that can force the rest of the person to seek and adhere to truth, no matter how much the emotions recoil, this man an help others. Jorden Peterson comes to mind.

What struck me as odd is Jesus declared he had told everything the Father had told Him to his disciples. It is because this was not facts or reams of complex issues or perspectives, but clear meaningful priorities and realities which the Father will honour. So in a sense the spiritual war has never been on the God delusion plain, but on the emotional life reality plain, and our limited grasp of ourselves and love itself. God bless you.

Everything he told them he had learned from the Father but he didn’t tell them everything he had heard. He actually said there was more to be said but they couldn’t take it at that point.

 

[PeterJens]

Pretty interesting…

There are those who derive their conclusions from logical and rational endeavors, not emotional. The truth makes us free. Letting emotions run you is a cage. And emotions, btw, are only the response of realizations (thinking.)

I strongly disagree. It’s those who have discipline in the mind keeping emotions under control who can help others. The mind that can force the rest of the person to seek and adhere to truth, no matter how much the emotions recoil, this man an help others. Jorden Peterson comes to mind.

Everything he told them he had learned from the Father but he didn’t tell them everything he had heard. He actually said there was more to be said but they couldn’t take it at that point.

I think you prove my point without realising it. Facts or context brings emotional reality with it which checks other emotional responses. Facts are just priorities with trump simple whims.

I call this reality factual emotional reality. I talked to one lady who claimed she worshiped the Lord without emotion so being slain in the spirit could never be emotional overload fainting.

It is the same as being healed by God and dying of cancer is not a contradiction, or real emotional delusion. I have friends who call getting over a cold a miracle because they want a miracle God more than emotional love and reality.

Unbelief comes in many forms. When people say they know the Lord because of signs but have no love they know nothing. Macho man believes he has everything but in reality has only that. God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

I strongly disagree is an interesting phrase.

The power is not factual but emotional. Facts have power because we recognise there priority which is expressed emotionally. A few words phrase can silence people. You feel the reality. So denying this truth by anyone is ironic because it undermines any point being made. Emotions always define us, we just hate admitting it because that admits vulnerability. In Christ the truth of His love sets us free.....death has no power over it or the positions of men. God bless you

 

[PeterJens]

Emotional cages.
Welcome to life. Cognitive dissonance is proof we all live in our cages.

Jesus declared being in line emotionally with Him is the Kingdom of heaven. Being yoked to Him is not a burden but will build us as a strong structure that will survive a storm. His command to love ones enemy is both a choice and emotional reality. Sow to the spirit and we reap eternal life. Peter put it brotherly love seals our salvation. Amen

 

[D-D-W]

You know, I’m not conversing with them. I’m talking to you. I’d like to know what you, a living man, think, not a carefully edited published piece by someone not here. So please present your thoughts.

My thoughts are my own. To describe how I got to understand (to a limited degree) Hebraic logic would be lengthy and severely off topic. I do not wish to derail the thread by doing so.

Suffice it to say I found out about it by reading A J Heschel's book "God in Search of Man." I had a very difficult time wrapping my mind around the concepts he presented and following his train of thought. That is when I discovered that there was a different logical framework used by the ancient Hebrews and it fits the bible quite well.

The links I gave will show the difference and get you started if you want to learn biblical logic as opposed to western logic; which was formulated by Aristotle, a pagan idol worshiper.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

My thoughts are my own. To describe how I got to understand (to a limited degree) Hebraic logic would be lengthy and severely off topic. I do not wish to derail the thread by doing so.

Suffice it to say I found out about it by reading A J Heschel's book "God in Search of Man." I had a very difficult time wrapping my mind around the concepts he presented and following his train of thought. That is when I discovered that there was a different logical framework used by the ancient Hebrews and it fits the bible quite well.

The links I gave will show the difference and get you started if you want to learn biblical logic as opposed to western logic; which was formulated by Aristotle, a pagan idol worshiper.

There’s a better way to learn. You shouldn’t assume others are unaware of the differences. Logic in the Bible, is the same. Solomon’s answer to the two mothers is beautifully logical…and he was a Hebrew.

 

[D-D-W]

There’s a better way to learn. You shouldn’t assume others are unaware of the differences. Logic in the Bible, is the same. Solomon’s answer to the two mothers is beautifully logical…and he was a Hebrew.

OF course there are overlaps. But in this passage:

Exodus 9:12
And the Lord hardened Pharaoh’s heart, and he did not listen to them, just as the Lord had spoken to Moses.
.....
34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

WHO hardened Pharaoh's heart - God, or did he harden it himself? The answer is yes.
It was not a deal of this time God did it and the next time he did it himself.

In Hebraic logic, 2 things that are considered mutually exclusive or contradictory in Aristotelian logic can be simultaneously true.

 

[D-D-W]

Any more on this topic (which is off topic) will probably be dealt with by the mods. Back to the OP topic.

 

[Edward]

My thoughts are my own. To describe how I got to understand (to a limited degree) Hebraic logic would be lengthy and severely off topic. I do not wish to derail the thread by doing so.

Hebraic logic, as well as the customs and culture of the time set the stage for how different words and phrases are used. When we look something up in the Concordance and the definitions give us a multiple guess list of definitions and usage in it, having a knowledge of Hebraic culture and logic of the day can be critical to understanding the word.

So even without your lengthy explaination, I am following you in that I know what you're saying is the truth.