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Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
The God Delusion
- Thread starter 2ndRateMind
- Start date
That is the philosophy of Gautama Buddha, philosopher, reformer and the founder of Buddhism 563-483 BC.
We are to forgive those who trespass against us whether they be Christian or not, Mark 11:25-26, but do not see the point you are trying to make with this. Why would I need to forgive an atheist or anyone from the 5000 different religions that are in the world if they haven't sinned against me?
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DavidT
Member
Don't need to read his book.
I recall the interview Ben Stein had with him per Stein's DVD Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. When Dawkins ultimately could not support his theory of how man came to be here on earth, Ben asked him in final how did man come into existence then. Dawkins said something like, maybe the aliens genetically made man and planted them here (a la Stargate maybe?).
That is really all we Christians need to know about atheists, even their head atheist Dawkins. They cannot explain the origin of the universe or of man. And for us to easily back up our Faith that God is The Creator of the known universe, and man, the following Scripture is really all we need to say to the atheist...
Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV
Why is that above verse so important? It's because it PROVES beyond all doubt God's existence as The Creator of all things. How?
Notice that last phrase, "so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear". What does that mean exactly?
Ever heard science's concept that matter can neither be created nor destroyed, one of the basic laws of thermodynamics? Material matter only changes it state (solid, liquid, vapor, gas). We cannot destroy it, nor create it.
Thusly, that proves that material matter was not made of things which do appear, i.e., material matter. Matter was not made from matter. Simple, and even science agrees! The atheist relies on materialism for the basis of their theory, so that is why they will never admit its actual origin. And what origin would that be brethren?
Since material matter cannot create itself, that is what that phrase means, that things seen (matter) was not made of things that do appear (i.e., matter again). This means material matter HAD to have been created from a dimension OUTSIDE of the known material universe.
Per John 4:24, we are told that God is a Spirit. That means there is another dimension of existence BEYOND this material dimension we live in. And that OTHER dimension is one of Spirit. And from THAT OTHER dimension, from GOD Himself, is Who created our dimension of material matter.
What that Hebrews 11:3 does then, is it PROVES that GOD exists, and it also proves that He created the known universe of material matter, because science agrees that matter cannot create itself. Something else HAD to have created it that dwells OUTSIDE the known universe. And that is GOD Himself That dwells outside our known universe.
Romans 3:1 kjv
1. What advantage, then, is there in being a Jew, or what value is there in circumcision?
2. Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3. For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4. God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
Without the Jewish oracles of God, there is no knowledge of creation.
Gentiles have a tough time realizing:
Ephesians 2:12 kjv
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
The one new man is a strange combination.
eddif
DavidT
Member
Sounds like you're trying... to point to Jewish culture being required to understand God's written Word.
Like Apostle Paul said, The Holy Spirit is divided to each believer accordingly (1 Corinthians 12). Jews cannot claim that only applies to them.
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I do not promote Jewish culture.
I do not support Jews claiming all the promises,
I do not support Gentiles claiming they have replaced the Jews.
I do support the one new man. Which I seem to be able to not know but about three paragraphs from scripture. I am asking God for knowledge wisdom understanding and love concerning the one new man.
eddif
DavidT
Member
The new man idea (or actually KJV "new creature" in Christ), is simply about Christ's Church, His many-membered body of believers. It's not about race, it is about spiritual seed in God's Promise by Faith first given through Abraham (see Galatians 3). God is Who created all races of man. And He created the first nations. In His future Kingdom here on earth, we are all going to be blessed together under His Son's reign.
Galatians 2:8 kjv
8. (For he that wrought effectually in Peter to the apostleship of the circumcision, the same was mighty in me toward the Gentiles
Given the Jerusalem council meeting and letter about the Gentiles:
The approach to the people you are dealing with may differ. The letters to the Churches in the book of revelation addresses each church by what is going on. We may be saying about the same thing here.
eddif
Exeter
Member
Is it Creationist Commentator Ken Ham who teaches there is only one race, the human race, and the genetic differences between us are miniscule? My observation is that preventing common usage of words in order to fine tune their application is often futile.
race 1
(rās)n.
1. A group of people identified as distinct from other groups because of supposed physical or genetic traits shared by the group. Most biologists and anthropologists do not recognize race as a biologically valid classification, in part because there is more genetic variation within groups than between them.
2. A group of people united or classified together on the basis of common history, nationality, or geographic distribution: the Celtic race.
3. A genealogical line; a lineage.
4. Humans considered as a group.
5. Biology
a. A usually geographically isolated population of organisms that differs from other populations of the same species in certain heritable traits: an island race of birds.
b. A breed or strain, as of domestic animals.
6. A distinguishing or characteristic quality, such as the flavor of a wine.
adj.
1. Of or relating to race; racial: race relations; race quotas.
2. Of or relating to forms of popular entertainment made by and largely marketed to African Americans in the early 1900s: race literature; race records.
[Middle French rasse, race, lineage, race, from Old Italian razza, probably from Old French haraz, stud farm for horses : Old French *har-, gray, gray-haired (as in French dialectal (Normandy) harousse, nag, old mare; perhaps in reference to the graying of stud horses with age and from Old Norse hārr, gray-haired, hoaryakin to English hoar) or Old French *har-, hair (perhaps in reference to the fact that stud horses are no longer regularly saddled; akin to French dialectal (Norman) har, hair, in monter á har, to ride on hair, ride bareback, from Old Norse hār, hairakin to English hair) + Old French -az, -as, n. suff. (from Latin -āceus, -aceous).]
DavidT
Member
You must struggle with this then...
Deut 23:2
2 A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.
KJV
The Hebrew for that KJV word "bastard" is defined as...
OT:4464 mamzer (mam-zare'); from an unused root meaning to alienate; a mongrel, i.e. born of a Jewish father and a heathen mother:
KJV - bastard.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright © 1994, 2003, 2006, 2010 Biblesoft, Inc. and International Bible Translators, Inc.)
That is definitely about God's old covenant requirement for the children of Israel to remain genealogically pure by not mixing their seed with other nations. How could you not know this, since even today orthodox Jews disown their own sons or daughters that marry Gentiles? It may be thought of more today because of religious differences, but the real origin per God's Word shows it was about seed mixing.
Deuteronomy 22:9 kjv
9. Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.
Now we are strangely getting back to the OP.
Lowest level?:
God knew what plants he wanted to have what characteristic operations / fruit. No GMO plants wanted.
Higher level?:
Jewish purity under the law.
Highest level?:
The pure New Testament Gospel of one new man.
Ultimate level
No error in eternal heaven.
This is where for_his_glory spoke in post 2 fits.
Why would we get friendly with knowledge that could contaminate doctrine purity. If we mix in false faulty thinking into our thoughts; perhaps by being too friendly.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a GMO tree.
I know. Please quote chapter and verse.
Revelation 2:20 kjv
20. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Person, physical act, mental doctrine - all changed.
Hey Mississippi rednecks can not do symbolism 100%, but I hope this does show levels of meaning.
The concept shows up in moltiple contexts.
eddif
9. Thou shalt not sow thy vineyard with divers seeds: lest the fruit of thy seed which thou hast sown, and the fruit of thy vineyard, be defiled.
Now we are strangely getting back to the OP.
Lowest level?:
God knew what plants he wanted to have what characteristic operations / fruit. No GMO plants wanted.
Higher level?:
Jewish purity under the law.
Highest level?:
The pure New Testament Gospel of one new man.
Ultimate level
No error in eternal heaven.
This is where for_his_glory spoke in post 2 fits.
Why would we get friendly with knowledge that could contaminate doctrine purity. If we mix in false faulty thinking into our thoughts; perhaps by being too friendly.
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil is a GMO tree.
I know. Please quote chapter and verse.
Revelation 2:20 kjv
20. Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.
Person, physical act, mental doctrine - all changed.
Hey Mississippi rednecks can not do symbolism 100%, but I hope this does show levels of meaning.
The concept shows up in moltiple contexts.
eddif
Exeter
Member
Thanks for making my case about the common usage, or bastardisation of words.
As we know, it's not just the Jews that balk at the intermarriage of race, and it's not just the intermarriage of race that gets balked at.
DavidT
Member
I fail to see how I made 'your'... case.
The old English word 'bastard' there in that KJV translation doesn't mean how that word is used today. Today most understand it to mean a child born outside of wedlock and that's it. But as I showed with the actual definition of the Hebrew word 'mamzer' which is in the manuscripts, it means a child born outside the literal 'seed' of the children of Israel, by an Israelite and a Gentile. And because that Deuteronomy verse reveals back in that time such a child was not allowed to enter into the congregation of Israel until the tenth generation, that reveals through ten generations, the blood of the Gentile seed would be purged out. That's some pretty heavy stuff, but that is actually where the Jews got their original commandment from God to stay separate from the nations.
Exeter
Member
Totally agree. You make my point that the usage of words changes over time. Once again, I have observed that it is futile to try and fine tune such words back to their original use. I know some who desperately try this, correcting and pontificating on every occasion but what vexatious bores this makes them.
Is this what you are referring to? I used to carry a Strongs with me. I finally wore out 2 and gave up. Now I look in the law, the prophets, what Jesus said, what Jesus did, what the Apostles said, listen to how the Holy Spirit leads and try and look for a concept in various contexts for support. Even this is not perfect.
2 Timothy 2:14 kjv
14. Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.
eddif
Exeter
Member
Oh, spot on eddif.
I don't mind knowing the origins and definitions of words but after a few years in a group where using the word church instead of ekklesia earned a rebuke from an elder I am over such nitpicking.
D-D-W
2024 Supporter
LOL! Of course, you actually mean kehilat?!?!
After all, between 2/3 and 3/4 of the bible was written in Hebrew, not Greek.
This discussion may prove helpful.
Isaiah 28:11 kjv
11. For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people
12. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
It could refer to Gospel / Kingdom being refreshing.
From Moses to John the law was taught.
I had never noticed by whom and kinda when this was said.
It was written by a prophet just before the destruction of Jerusalem, and before the 400 years of silence.
When the silence was broken the language basically changed. A few words, phrases, passages (?) may have been in Hebrew but there was a major language shift.
Unless
I listen to some folks.
Is there a chapter and verse that is as strong as the prophecy quoted above.
Hebrew is not my language, and neither is Greek. I read a translation. The Jews have translated all into Hebrew (?).
Anyway. Who are the ones that want it to be a language thing?
Gentiles love to write commentaries along with their translations that mess up a lot ( by supposedly giving the meaning ).
Amazing to me that the English commentaries are so different according to denomination.
I am open to comments.
eddif
Exeter
Member
Huh? Wycliffe translated the NT Greek word ekklesia as congregation in his English Bible. When asked why he didn't translate ekklesia as church as was common among English speakers he replied to the effect that the word church in the vocabulary of his day had come to mean clergy, a completely erroneous interpretation of ekklesia which literally means "the called out".
Quote:
Kuriakon actually means “pertaining to the lord.” It is used twice in scripture: 1 Cor 11:20 The “ Lord’s [ kuriakon]supper;” and Rev 1:10, the “ Lord’s [ kuriakon] day.” In those passages it is the supper belonging to the Lord and the day belonging to the Lord respectively.
Kuriakon, kirche, and church, all meant simply a religious building originally used by pagans and later used by Christians following pagan customs. Christians originally didn’t use buildings, which distinguished them from the pagans whose focus was on building, statues, ritual and physical objects. [Copied from The Origin Of The Word Church at scribd.com]