Bible Study The Godship of Jesus the Christ...

[jocor]

What you are missing here is that Romans 10:13, is a quote from the Joel 2:32, where "Lord" is "YHWH". Paul is clearly equating the two statements in verse 9 and verse 13. In other words, this passage strongly suggests that one must confess Jesus is YHWH. And of course it does also mean confessing Jesus as Lord of one's life but it is much more than that, as verse 13 shows. In the very least, Paul is ascribing deity to Jesus.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus (Yeshua), and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.​

“God”, in this verse, is not Yeshua, but Yeshua’s Father YHWH. It was YHWH who made Yeshua to be both “Lord” and “Messiah” (Acts 2:36) and it was YHWH who sent Yeshua to save the world (John 3:17). Therefore, the ultimate source of salvation is from YHWH through Yeshua.

Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.​

The salvation that YHWH provided through Yeshua.

Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.​

It was Adonai YHWH who laid the firm foundation of salvation (Isa 28:16) and made Yeshua the chief cornerstone. This is what Paul was referencing in verse 11. If we believe on Yeshua, we will not be ashamed. Father YHWH gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16).

Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.​

YHWH is Lord over all the earth (Joshua 3:11). He made Yeshua to be Lord of all as well. Men call upon YHWH for salvation (Psalm 18:3; 55:16; Joel 2:32). They call upon Yeshua for salvation as well (1 Corinthians 1:2). Therefore, it is not clear which “Lord” is called upon here.

Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.​

This is a quote from Joel 2:32 which uses “YHWH”. Now we know which “Lord” is being called upon in verse 12; YHWH.

 

[RevSRE]

και G2532[AND] τον G3588[THE] μονον G3441[ONLY] δεσποτην G1203[MASTER] θεον G2316[GOD] και G2532[AND] κυριον G2962[LORD] ημων G2257[OUR] ιησουν G2424[JESUS] χριστον G5547[CHRIST] αρνουμενοι G720(G5740)[DENYING.]

Nestle-Aland 27 and Westcott-Hort Greek
Jud 1:4 παρεισέδυσαν γάρ τινες ἄνθρωποι, οἱ πάλαι προγεγραμμένοι εἰς τοῦτο τὸ κρίμα,
ἀσεβεῖς, τὴν τοῦ θεοῦ ἡμῶν χάριτα μετατιθέντες εἰς ἀσέλγειαν
καὶ τὸν μόνον δεσπότην καὶ κύριον ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν ἀρνούμενοι.
and. the..only…Master...and. Lord....of us.....Jesus...Christ......reject.

Robinson \ Pierpont Byzantine and Received text (Textus Receptus) and Beza Greek
Jud 1:4 παρεισεδυσαν γαρ τινες ανθρωποι οι παλαι προγεγραμμενοι εις τουτο το κριμα
ασεβεις την του θεου ημωνχαριν μετατιθεντες εις ασελγειαν
και τον μονον δεσποτην θεον και κυριον ημων ιησουν χριστον αρνουμενοι
and.the..only…Master….God....and..lord.....of us....Jesus Christ ......reject.

Here we have a real difference of the text. I do not think it will stop the world. But of the various text here we find a difference.
I am not sure any one will ever know which is correct.

 

[Malachi]

I am not sure any one will ever know which is correct.

For those who have examined the issue in depth, the "critical texts" such as Nestle-Aland and Westcott-Hort are based on corrupt manuscripts. As Scripture says "What is the chaff to the wheat"?

In any event, this does not detract from the Deity of Christ in the least, since there are numerous other Scriptures which plainly state that Jesus is God.

 

[Malachi]

So you are pitting Scripture against Scripture and choosing the ones which fit your theology.

That is exactly what the Anti-Trinitarians do. And it is fundamentally dishonest.

 

[RevSRE]

For those who have examined the issue in depth, the "critical texts" such as Nestle-Aland and Westcott-Hort are based on corrupt manuscripts. As Scripture says "What is the chaff to the wheat"? In any event, this does not detract from the Deity of Christ in the least, since there are numerous other Scriptures which plainly state that Jesus is God.

Ok now that is a cheep shot. They are not "Corrupt" Nestle-Aland and others of this group use and include the UNCLES (Greek in all caps) but they also use the minuscules (the Greek text with lower case which is claimed the be the way the NT writers wrote it.)
The real argument is over "Where they are from" Italy Greece Bible lands or Egypt mainly Alexandria. This is because the Gnostic error was very strong in Alexandria.
But, the Nestle-Aland text is a Textual Composite of ALL the manuscripts available and it the primary Greek used in education.

and IMO this verse has nothing to do with the question of is Jesus deity, or God. But as you said from other verses HE IS.

 

[Malachi]

Ok now that is a cheep shot.

We need to call a spade a spade. If you think that was not a true statement, please do some further research. There are a lot of primary source materials available from The Bible for Today.

 

[RevSRE]

We need to call a spade a spade. If you think that was not a true statement, please do some further research. There are a lot of primary source materials available from The Bible for Today.

Please forgive me, I did not know you were a King James Only Bible student. That concept is far beyond my understanding, but I will respect your limited usage. I do feel that All the differences found do not make a major difference. I grew up using the King James and still like it the best, there will never again be a work of literately art to equal the King James rendering of scripture.

 

[reba]

Guys lets slow down a bit remember to continue to show some respect as the bases is the Scripture Thanks admin

 

[JLB]

So, in reality, what you are trying to teach me is the Son not only sent himself, but he glorified himself as well??

Jesus is the Son, and is sent by the Father.

Jesus is called God, by His Father, as He is the only begotten of the Father.

But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10


You forget that God, Elohim is a Plural expression.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26


You just can't seem to explain away, this foundational truth.


Jesus is the Lord God who is coming at the end of the age with the saints.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, Jude 14

God the Father, sends God the Son, with the saints, from Heaven to earth to reign as King over the whole earth.

This is the Day of the Lord, the Day of Christ, the Day of God.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 2 Thessalonians 2:1-2


Jesus is The Lord of the old testament, and is our God and Savior.


Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Peter 1:1


and Paul confirms -


looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13


Jesus Himself makes this same claim, about Himself.

Jesus said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM. John 8:58


If you don't believe He is God and came from Heaven to earth, as God, who became flesh to die for your sins, then you will die in your sins.

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24 Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” John 8:23-24

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega,the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last. Revelation 22:12-13


12 Then I turned to see the voice that spoke with me. And having turned I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the seven lamp stands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. 14 His head and hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; 15 His feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace, and His voice as the sound of many waters; 16 He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength. 17 And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead. But He laid His right hand on me, saying to me, “Do not be afraid; I am the First and the Last. 18 I am He who lives, and was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and of Death. Revelation 1:12-17


‘These things says the First and the Last, who was dead, and came to life: Revelation 2:8


JLB

 

[jocor]

Jesus is called God, by His Father, as He is the only begotten of the Father.

But to the Son He says:“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

The Father did NOT call Jesus "God". He called him "elohim", a title given to angels and men as well. English trinitarian translators call him "God".

You forget that God, Elohim is a Plural expression.

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; Genesis 1:26


You just can't seem to explain away, this foundational truth.

"Elohim" is a plural word used in a singular or plural sense. There are only a handful of times it is used with a plural pronoun as in Gen 1:26. Thousands of other times it is used with singular pronouns and verbs.

Elohim is used in the Bible with a plural sense when it refers to several deities and in a singular sense when it refers to a singular deity. Its plural sense can be seen in Exodus 12:12, "For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods (elohim) of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am Yahweh." Its singular sense can be seen in 1 Samuel 5:7, ". . . and upon Dagon our god” and2 Kings 1:2, ". . . Go, enquire of Baal-zebub the god of Ekron whether I shall recover of this disease." Are we to believe that Dagon and Baal-zebub are also plural beings?

I believe that when “elohim” is used in a plural sense, it is the plural of majesty or intensity, not of number. Strong’s says of "elohim", “and sometimes as a superlative” and BDB says, “c,) 1. pl. in number. † a. rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power.” To those two sources I would also add the “father of Hebrew grammarians,” Gesenius, who wrote in his Hebrew Grammar, “That the language has entirely rejected the idea of numerical plurality in Elohim (whenever it denotes one God) is proved especially by its being almost invariably joined with a singular attribute.”

Jesus is the Lord God who is coming at the end of the age with the saints.

Thus the Lord my God will come, and all the saints with You. Zechariah 14:5

14 Now Enoch, the seventh from Adam, prophesied about these men also, saying, “Behold, the Lord comes with ten thousands of His saints, Jude 14

God the Father, sends God the Son, with the saints, from Heaven to earth to reign as King over the whole earth.

Yes, Yeshua is coming, but so is his Father YHWH because the Father lives in Messiah.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (see also Rev 1:4; 4:8)

2Co 5:19 To wit, that God (the Father) was in Christ (Messiah), reconciling the world unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
​

The Father also lives in each believer. We are His temple. If a believer goes to the spiritually darkest corner of Africa, then the Father went there as well (as did Yeshua).

 

[JLB]

We know that the New Testament was written in Greek, not Hebrew.



The scripture Plainly says: God

However the context is clear.

Verse 10 says that The Son, as God, laid the foundation of the earth.

8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
10 And:“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

Would you have us to believe that a "man", is somehow called God, and laid the foundation of the earth?

• That the New Testament was written in Hebrew?
• That God who laid the foundation of the earth, is really a man?

JLB

 

[JLB]

Jesus is in the Father, and the Father will remain of the Throne, so does that mean Jesus will remain of the throne,.

God the Father is He who is seated upon the throne, and is called the Most High God.

Jesus Christ His son, who is the Lord God will come with His saints.

30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. Matthew 24:30


Is the Son of Man, God the Father?

Jesus Christ is the Son of Man.

Jesus Christ is coming with the saints, not God the Father.

Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1

and again

looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13


JLB

 

[JLB]

The Spirit of Christ, lives in all believers, which is God, being able to give eternal life to all believers.

But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. Romans 8:9


The Spirit of Christ was also in the Old Testament prophets, and prophesied through Zechariah, as the Lord God, before He became flesh.

searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 1 Peter 1:11


Here is Jesus speaking through Zechariah, foretelling of Himself being pierced, before He became flesh.

“And I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; then they will look on Me whom they pierced. Yes, they will mourn for Him as one mourns for his only son, and grieve for Him as one grieves for a firstborn.
Zechariah 12:10



JLB

 

[Malachi]

When some blatantly denies what is stated in Scripture (which is the witness of God), there is no need for further discussion. The Father DID call Jesus God.

 

[reba]

Jocor is respecting my request to not post in the Bible Study Forum... Please show him the same respect by not 'calling him out" thank you Admin

 

[marie glen]

hi! I'm a real newby here!
In these sorts of discussions I always wonder a couple of things.. But first my thought so as not to be misunderstood, I think of Jesus as deity.. and as the only straight out from God one (only begotten).. I think they are both one, and two. That they are so close as to be of the same 'substance', essence.. character, and so on.. In a way I think like there are many in the plant kingdom, there is only Father and Son in the 'God kingdom'.. that the Son is not the Father, but that Jesus is God/deity (because He is His Son, the straight out from Him One).. though He came here as a man.. and always called himself the Son of man..

What I often wonder about this topic is do some folks believe Father and Son are only one..? And others believe they are only two? And how many believe they are both one and two. So close that both administer the Spirit of God! (Which I think of as the Presence of God.. that part of God which goes forth and is with man.)

Take care! God bless! )