Bible Study The Godship of Jesus the Christ...

[jocor]

You going to have to do better than just state your opinion.

You are going to have to do better, than come up with excuse after excuse after excuse, about how "this doesn't mean that", or "my translation of that verse is better than those who translated the bible"

You know full well that I have not given my own translation of any verses I quoted in this thread. I always cite respected translations such as the NASB, YLT, ASV, etc. Also, I would appreciate it if you would tell me immediately if you have a problem with a translation I cite rather than unloading on me 20-40 posts later.

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to His promise, look for new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells.
2 Peter 3:10-13

Before I reply concerning the "Day of the Lord", please clarify about your understanding of this passage. Are you saying that the day Messiah comes to resurrect the dead in him that the heavens will pass away and the earth will dissolve?

 

[jocor]

So in other words it's impossible to know if Jesus is 'God'. Meaning, not even you can know if he is or not. That's what your arguments amount to.

There are plenty of Scriptures teaching monotheism and making a differentiation between "God" and Yeshua. There are only a few that call him "God". To accept those few verses to say that they teach he is part of the "only true God" is to contradict the others.

He's the only one among humans who came down from heaven into the earth. The rest of us originate from the earth. That alone is what distinguishes the Son of God as God for me, personally.

I do not believe he was a spirit being that "came down from heaven". That simply means he had a heavenly origin.

He's not just another man that God decided is going to have the ministry of ministries among men. Man gets zero credit in salvation. To make Jesus simply a man (alone) is to give waaaaay too much credit to mankind for his salvation. You see what I'm saying, don't you. If Jesus was just a really obedient human being alone, then he can no more take credit for the salvation of the world than the rest of us 'obedient' humans can.

Man gets no credit for salvation. Salvation originates from Yahweh. He chose to bring about salvation through the death and resurrection of a sinless man who he filled with the Holy Spirit without measure. He worked miracles through that man. That very man said he could nothing without the Father. To Yahweh be the glory for the work of salvation that He wrought through His Son Yeshua.

 

[JLB]

You know full well that I have not given my own translation of any verses I quoted in this thread.

When you change what the KJV or NKJV says, and state things like...

Replacing "God" with "elohim" helps to understand the meaning:

“Your throne, O elohim, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore elohim, your Elohim, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Knowing full well that elohim, is a Hebrew word, and Hebrews 1:8 was written in the Greek

Theos is the word here in the Greek.

By reading the context, it's easy to see, that God the Father refers to His only begotten Son as God.

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.”

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
Hebrews 1:8

The writer of the book of Hebrews is distinguishing The Son of God, as being God... God that is worshipped.


This is just one on many examples, where you seem to have your own person theology, based upon your own person interpretative model, which is based on you deciding what word fits in the scriptures you are reading at the time.

Sometimes you will present some "off the wall" version of the bible, that you agree with, depending on what subject we are discussing.

That has been my experience in discussing doctrine with you.



JLB

 

[Free]

There are plenty of Scriptures teaching monotheism and making a differentiation between "God" and Yeshua. There are only a few that call him "God". To accept those few verses to say that they teach he is part of the "only true God" is to contradict the others.

And yet the obvious point here is that you have admitted "there are only a few [verses] that call him God," so you do in fact have a contradiction in your understanding. You cannot simply discard or ignore those verses because they are inconvenient to your theology. They must be taken into account, which is precisely why we have the doctrine of the Trinity.

 

[JLB]

There are plenty of Scriptures teaching monotheism and making a differentiation between "God" and Yeshua. There are only a few that call him "God". To accept those few verses to say that they teach he is part of the "only true God" is to contradict the others.

Jesus is the Lord God who became flesh. The Lord Jesus Christ is called the Son of Man, and the Son of God.

He is both Man and God.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-3,14

These verse's teach us the truth about Jesus as creator, having created all things, He became flesh, to be our Savior.

For I am the Lord your God, The Holy One of Israel, your Savior;
I, even I, am the Lord, and besides Me there is no savior. Isaiah 43:3,11

Jesus is the one who created all things, and without Him, nothing that was created, was created.
...without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:3

and again

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1;15-17

Jesus is before all things.
Jesus created all things.
In Jesus all things, that were made, consist.
By Him, all things were created, as He is the firstborn over all creation.

again

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh...
1 Timothy 3:16

God = Theos.

God, Theos was manifested in the flesh.

That would rule out the word "Theos" being used in reference to a man.

Jesus is the Lord God, creator and Savior.

He is coming with the saints.

He is the Alpha and Omega, The First and Last.

12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13



JLB

 

[jocor]

When you change what the KJV or NKJV says, and state things like...

Replacing "God" with "elohim" helps to understand the meaning:

“Your throne, O elohim, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore elohim, your Elohim, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

Knowing full well that elohim, is a Hebrew word, and Hebrews 1:8 was written in the Greek

Theos is the word here in the Greek.

I was not giving you the correct translation of Hebrews 1:8-9. I was helping you to understand how I see it. The reason I used "elohim" is because the text being quoted from the Psalms uses "elohim". I could just as easily have used "theos" and "Theos" to make my point. The KJV and NKJV do not bring out the true meaning and nuances of either "elohim" or "theos" by using "God".

Sometimes you will present some "off the wall" version of the bible, that you agree with, depending on what subject we are discussing.

If I did, it would have been grouped along with respected versions. I have never used an "off the wall version" as my sole evidence knowing full well you would reject it as such.

 

[JLB]

I was not giving you the correct translation of Hebrews 1:8-9. I was helping you to understand how I see it. The reason I used "elohim" is because the text being quoted from the Psalms uses "elohim". I could just as easily have used "theos" and "Theos" to make my point. The KJV and NKJV do not bring out the true meaning and nuances of either "elohim" or "theos" by using "God".

The context shows your explanation to be man inspired, and incorrect.

By reading the context, it's easy to see, that God the Father refers to His only begotten Son as God.

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.”

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
Hebrews 1:8

The writer of the book of Hebrews is distinguishing The Son of God, as being God... God that is worshiped.


JLB

 

[jocor]

And yet the obvious point here is that you have admitted "there are only a few [verses] that call him God," so you do in fact have a contradiction in your understanding. You cannot simply discard or ignore those verses because they are inconvenient to your theology. They must be taken into account, which is precisely why we have the doctrine of the Trinity.

I don't discard or ignore any verse. I seek understanding based on context and the Hebrew and/or Greek. I do not base my doctrines on the English KJV or NKJV. Nor do I base my doctrines on church tradition or creeds. The Trinity is based entirely on English translations (primarily the verses that use the English word "God" for Yeshua or the English word "Lord" for Yeshua and Yahweh). The use of "the LORD" instead of "YHWH" or "Yahweh" has led to much of the doctrinal errors that permeates the church today.

 

[jocor]

The context shows your explanation to be man inspired, and incorrect.

By reading the context, it's easy to see, that God the Father refers to His only begotten Son as God.

But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: “Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

And of the angels He says: “Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.”

But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”
Hebrews 1:8

The writer of the book of Hebrews is distinguishing The Son of God, as being God... God that is worshiped.
JLB

Just because someone was "worshiped" doesn't mean they are "God". The same Hebrew word used for the worship of Yahweh was used for Abraham and Joseph:

Gen 23:12 And Abraham bowed down himself before the people of the land.
Gen 43:28 And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.
​

The same word used for the worship of the Son in Hebrews 1:6 is used for believers in Rev 3:9:

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
​

 

[Free]

I don't discard or ignore any verse. I seek understanding based on context and the Hebrew and/or Greek. I do not base my doctrines on the English KJV or NKJV. Nor do I base my doctrines on church tradition or creeds. The Trinity is based entirely on English translations (primarily the verses that use the English word "God" for Yeshua or the English word "Lord" for Yeshua and Yahweh). The use of "the LORD" instead of "YHWH" or "Yahweh" has led to much of the doctrinal errors that permeates the church today.

The Trinity is a side point, not the main one, which you side-stepped. By your own admission you are ignoring verses--you admit that a few verses state Jesus is God but then don't allow for Jesus to be God. This is a signigicant contradiction, which you did not address.

What you are left with is a monotheistic God and some verses which state Jesus is God. And I don't see anywhere in your beliefs where this problem is reconciled.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I do not believe he was a spirit being that "came down from heaven". That simply means he had a heavenly origin.

What does it mean to simply have a heavenly origin?

 

[jocor]

The Trinity is a side point, not the main one, which you side-stepped. By your own admission you are ignoring verses--you admit that a few verses state Jesus is God but then don't allow for Jesus to be God. This is a signigicant contradiction, which you did not address.

What you are left with is a monotheistic God and some verses which state Jesus is God. And I don't see anywhere in your beliefs where this problem is reconciled.

I admit that a few English verses state "Jesus is God". I reject them because they do not take into account the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words translated "God" and because they directly contradict monotheism. These contradictions have led Christian theologians to declare the trinity a mystery.

The problem is reconciled by first admitting that monotheism is a Scriptural fact. No being except Yeshua's Father can be the "only true God". Yeshua taught us that in John 17:3. Therefore, if any other beings are said to be either "elohim" or "theos", they must be understood to be such in a lesser sense of those words than Father YHWH is. Moses, angels, Herod, Satan, the judges of Israel, Yeshua, etc., must all be lesser elohim or lesser theos than YHWH.

 

[jocor]

What does it mean to simply have a heavenly origin?

Yeshua does not have an earthly origin as all other men have. His Father directly brought him into existence by speaking His word. His word was made flesh. Father YHWH's word was within Him. He spoke those words from heaven and Yeshua was conceived.
John 17:8 reads;

"For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee , and they have believed that thou didst send me."
​

The Greek word "exerchomai" translated "came out" specifically means to go out of something that you were inside of. In this case, Yeshua existed "inside" of Yahweh in a similar sense that Levi existed inside the "loins of his father" before he was born (Hebrews 7:5-10). In that passage, Levi was not born yet, nor was his father Jacob. Yet, Levi was said to be in Abraham's loins (in the sense of future lineage). (The lineage of Messiah is spoken of in Micah 5:2 and it traces all the way back to his Father Yahweh). While it is difficult to perceive of the Almighty having an "inside," that is what the text is saying. Yet, I believe this is figurative and equates with the mind of Yahweh.

There will be those who will totally misunderstand my words, so let me clarify this. I am not suggesting the Almighty has "loins." Nor am I suggesting Yeshua was conceived in any manner similar to the manner in which all men are conceived (through procreation/copulation). Yahweh is Spirit. His Holy Spirit "came upon" Miriam and miraculously caused her egg to receive the necessary DNA to create a 100% male child in her womb.

 

[JLB]

Just because someone was "worshiped" doesn't mean they are "God". The same Hebrew word used for the worship of Yahweh was used for Abraham and Joseph:

Gen 23:12 And Abraham bowed down himself before the people of the land.
Gen 43:28 And they answered, Thy servant our father is in good health, he is yet alive. And they bowed down their heads, and made obeisance.
​

The same word used for the worship of the Son in Hebrews 1:6 is used for believers in Rev 3:9:

Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
​

Again, it is the context that shows and teaches us the difference.

8 Again, the devil took Him up on an exceedingly high mountain, and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. 9 And he said to Him, “All these things I will give You if You will fall down and worship me.”

10 Then Jesus said to him, “Away with you, Satan! For it is written, ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and Him only you shall serve.’”
Matthew 4:8-10

Just like the context of Hebrews shows us Jesus is referred to as God, the creator who is worshiped by all the angels.

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

7 And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits
And His ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:6-10

Context makes it clear.

Jesus is the one who created all things, and without Him, nothing that was created, was created.
...without Him nothing was made that was made. John 1:3

and again

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. Colossians 1;15-17

Jesus is before all things.
Jesus created all things.
In Jesus all things, that were made, consist.
By Him, all things were created, as He is the firstborn over all creation.

again

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh...
1 Timothy 3:16


Context makes it clear.


JLB

 

[jocor]

Again, it is the context that shows and teaches us the difference.

I agree. However, it is the context of the Hebrew or Greek that matters, not the context of the English.

 

[JLB]

I agree. However, it is the context of the Hebrew or Greek that matters, not the context of the English.

The Context of Hebrews 1, shows us that The Father refers to His only begotten Son, as God.

6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says:

“Let all the angels of God worship Him.”

And of the angels He says:

“Who makes His angels spirits and His ministers a flame of fire.”

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And: “You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:6-10


The only begotten Son of God, is God, and is the creator.

He is to be worshiped, as God, and honored as God, just as God the Father is honored and worshiped.

For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. John 5:22-23


JLB

 

[Malachi]

I admit that a few English verses state "Jesus is God". I reject them because they do not take into account the meaning of the Hebrew and Greek words translated "God" and because they directly contradict monotheism. These contradictions have led Christian theologians to declare the trinity a mystery.

Too often people believe they have the right to pick and choose what to believe, and find convenient excuses for what they reject. This is precisely what all the cults do.

Monotheism and the triune Godhead are not contradictory, since the Mystery of God is indeed a mystery, and you will find that phrase in Scripture. But what is critical is that if you deny the Deity of Christ, you forfeit salvation.

The name Jesus (Yeshua or Yahshua) itself means that God is our salvation. That is why He is called the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, and the LORD (YHWH) our Righteousness.

 

[jocor]

Too often people believe they have the right to pick and choose what to believe, and find convenient excuses for what they reject. This is precisely what all the cults do.

Its a good thing I'm not in a cult, but in Messiah Yeshua.

BTW, am I picking and choosing when I reject "Easter" (in Acts 12:4 of the KJV) in favor of "Passover"? I sure am and I would not have it any other way. It seems to me you should be more picky as well.

Monotheism and the triune Godhead are not contradictory, since the Mystery of God is indeed a mystery, and you will find that phrase in Scripture. But what is critical is that if you deny the Deity of Christ, you forfeit salvation.

And the verse that says I "forfeit salvation" is ...?

The name Jesus (Yeshua or Yahshua) itself means that God is our salvation. That is why He is called the Mighty God, the Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, and the LORD (YHWH) our Righteousness.

"Yeshua" means "he will save" (Mt 1:21). In context, "he" refers to Messiah.

Everlasting Father - There are at least 27 names in the Bible with the same Hebrew construction as in this verse. Each one means the "father of (something)." For example, Abishua means "father of plenty." Instead of translating the phrase in Is.9:6 as "Father of eternity," the KJV reversed the sequence making the true meaning harder to discern. Several newer versions correct this mistake such as The Emphasized Bible, The Bible in Basic English, The New American Bible, The Holy Bible; A Translation From the Latin Vulgate in the Light of the Hebrew and Greek Originals, and The New English Bible, just to name a few. Yeshua is the Father of Eternity because eternal life comes to us through him. And so it is written in Heb.5:9, "And being made perfect, he became the author (or father) of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

YHWH our Righteousness - If this verse teaches that Yeshua is YHWH because he is called "YHWH Our Righteousness, then Jer.33:16 teaches that Jerusalem is also YHWH. It reads, "In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, YHWH our righteousness." The translators did not use the same capitalization because they undoubtedly feared that it would suggest Jerusalem is YHWH.

Mighty God - Both Martin Luther and James Moffatt translated the phrase as “divine hero” in their Bibles. I prefer "mighty warrior".

I have to leave for work. If you would like me to elaborate on "Mighty God", I will later.

 

[JLB]

Mighty God - Both Martin Luther and James Moffatt translated the phrase as “divine hero” in their Bibles. I prefer "mighty warrior".

Many pick and choose to suit a theology.

Yeshua is the Father of Eternity because eternal life comes to us through him.

Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last.

These are the names of YHWH, the Lord God.

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.” Revelation 22:12-13

“Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel, And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
‘I am the First and I am the Last; Besides Me there is no God.
Isaiah 44:6


Jesus is the King of Israel.

49 Nathanael answered and said to Him, “Rabbi, You are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!”

50 Jesus answered and said to him, “Because I said to you, ‘I saw you under the fig tree,’ do you believe? You will see greater things than these.” 51 And He said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, hereafter you shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of Man.” John 1:49-51

12 The next day a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: “Hosanna! ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’ The King of Israel!”
14 Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written:
15 “Fear not, daughter of Zion;
Behold, your King is coming, sitting on a donkey’s colt.”
John 12:12-15


Jesus is the Redeemer.

Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb:
“I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone,
Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself; Isaiah 44:24

18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.
1 Peter 1:18-19


Jesus is the God who stretches out the heavens.

8 But to the Son He says:

“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever;
A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness;
Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You
With the oil of gladness more than Your companions.”

10 And:

“You, Lord, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of Your hands.
Hebrews 1:8-10

The scriptures teach us, it was the Son of God, God the Son, created the heaven and the earth.

"You laid the foundation of the earth"...
"The heavens are the work of your hands"...


JLB

 

[Sinthesis]

But what is critical is that if you deny the Deity of Christ, you forfeit salvation.

Mat 10:40 ¶ He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.
Mat 10:41 - He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.
Mat 10:42 - And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.​

I wouldn't say salvation is necessarily forfeit to messianic Jews who deny the deity of Jesus Christ, but clearly the reward for demoting Jesus to only a righteous man is less than the reward given to those who acknowledge and follow Him as God.