THE GREAT I AM

[JLB]

It's a matter of English grammar. An angel of the LORD does not mean the angel is the LORD.

Likewise, an angel of the LORD doesn’t mean The Angel of the LORD.


God means God.



JLB

 

[Runningman]

Interesting evasion of the proofs God the Son is in the Bible, to repeat a claim I just proved untrue.

The basic premise of your argument is God is cannot be certain things. As man can't have two natures neither can God. But that premise contradicts scripture:

But Jesus looked at them and said to them, "With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." (Matt. 19:26 NKJ)

I'm curious what you believe about God, how does He stack up to the "other elohim"

For example, the JW's have Jehovah God as the biggest (or most powerful) "spirit body" on top of the Parthenon, Jesus "a-god" just below Him, but above the other "Elohim" in spirit bodies, all living in a place called "heaven":

"While there are physical bodies visible and palpable, there are also spiritual bodies, invisible to human eyes and entirely beyond human senses. (1 Cor. 15:44) The bodies of spiritual persons (God, Christ, the angels) are glorious...The true God is not omnipresent."--Aid To Bible Understanding, p. 247, 665 (Watchtower Bible & Tract Society, 1971)

Is that your belief also?

That Jesus is greater than the "elohim angels of God", but lesser than Yahweh, all living in finite but glorious "spirit bodies"?

I don't really know what the JWs believe. Just because I don't believe Jesus is God doesn't mean I am a JW. Not really sure if that's what you're suggesting, but you keep bringing them up to me. Are you a Roman Catholic and believe and practice everything they do because you believe Jesus is God?

Its time you revealed your concept of God, so we can see the God you see, and judge whether He is the God of the Bible.

I see the same God Jesus sees.

John 17:1-3
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people,a so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

John 20
17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

 

[Alfred Persson]

I don't really know what the JWs believe. Just because I don't believe Jesus is God doesn't mean I am a JW. Not really sure if that's what you're suggesting, but you keep bringing them up to me. Are you a Roman Catholic and believe and practice everything they do because you believe Jesus is God?


I see the same God Jesus sees.

John 17:1-3
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people,a so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

John 20
17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

Not sufficient. Is God infinite? Omnipresent? Is Jesus "Elohim", a son of God with the "angels" or something more? What happened at the Incarnation of Christ, born of a virgin.

Its time you revealed your definition of God, so we can see the God you see, and judge whether He is the God of the Bible.

It's absurd we permit JWs dispute our beliefs given their belief in something like a pagan Greek Parthenon where Jehovah is the "great spirit" ruling over lesser spirits, and Jesus somewhere in between.

Their concept of God is ludicrous, and probably so is yours.

Otherwise, you would jump at the opportunity to describe the God you believe in.

 

[Runningman]

Not sufficient.

Believing what Jesus believes about God is not sufficient? Then what are we doing here? I hope you are not here to pit scripture against scripture because that isn't what I am doing.

Is God infinite? Omnipresent?

Yes

Is Jesus "Elohim", a son of God with the "angels" or something more?

Son of God and Messiah made lower than the angels, but inherited a name greater than the angels.

Hebrews 2
7You made him a little lower than the angels;
You crowned him with glory and honor

Hebrews 1
4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs.

What happened at the Incarnation of Christ, born of a virgin.

What happened?

Its time you revealed your definition of God, so we can see the God you see, and judge whether He is the God of the Bible.

John 17:1-3
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people,a so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

John 20
17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”

Their concept of God is ludicrous, and probably so is yours.

Do you think the patronizing way you talk about my Biblical beliefs is disrespectful? You can disagree with me without telling me that believing what Jesus believes about God is ludicrous.

Otherwise, you would jump at the opportunity to describe the God you believe in.

Which is what I have been doing. I believe in the one and only true God, the Father, like the Bible says. Don't think that just because the JWs are aware of this that it's okay to "throw the baby out with the bath water" so to speak. With all things you should find what's true and good and then disregard the rest. The one and only true God being the Father is a foundational Biblical doctrine. You can't deny that.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Believing what Jesus believes about God is not sufficient? Then what are we doing here? I hope you are not here to pit scripture against scripture because that isn't what I am doing.


Yes

Son of God and Messiah made lower than the angels, but inherited a name greater than the angels.

Hebrews 2
7You made him a little lower than the angels;
You crowned him with glory and honor

Hebrews 1
4So He became as far superior to the angels as the name He has inherited is excellent beyond theirs.


What happened?

John 17:1-3
1When Jesus had spoken these things, He lifted up His eyes to heaven and said, “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son may glorify You. 2For You granted Him authority over all people,a so that He may give eternal life to all those You have given Him. 3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.

John 20
17“Do not cling to Me,” Jesus said, “for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go and tell My brothers, ‘I am ascending to My Father and your Father, to My God and your God.’ ”


Do you think the patronizing way you talk about my Biblical beliefs is disrespectful? You can disagree with me without telling me that believing what Jesus believes about God is ludicrous.


Which is what I have been doing. I believe in the one and only true God, the Father, like the Bible says. Don't think that just because the JWs are aware of this that it's okay to "throw the baby out with the bath water" so to speak. With all things you should find what's true and good and then disregard the rest. The one and only true God being the Father is a foundational Biblical doctrine. You can't deny that.

Clarify Son of God "Made" lower than the angels.

Are you saying the Son of God is "made", created....lower than the angels, then raised above them in name only?

Is He a "son of God" like the angels are? Like we are children of God. What do you mean by "Son", is it a title only?

And what happened during the virgin birth. Was Jesus conceived then? No pre-existence. How did He "became flesh".

And what is the "Word of God", what does that mean?

Clarify and then I will treat your post entire.

 

[Runningman]

Clarify Son of God "Made" lower than the angels.

Are you saying the Son of God is "made", created....lower than the angels, then raised above them in name only?

That's accurate, but post resurrection and ascension everything was put under his feet except for the one who put everything under him (1 Cor 15:27)

Is He a "son of God" like the angels are? Like we are children of God. What do you mean by "Son", is it a title only?

It refers to offspring.

And what happened during the virgin birth. Was Jesus conceived then? No pre-existence. How did He "became flesh".

Jesus existed in God's logos (His will, plan, and purposes). God's logos became flesh when God miraculously caused Mary to conceive. God's plan came into fruition.

And what is the "Word of God", what does that mean?

It refers to God's will, plan, and purposes.

 

[Alfred Persson]

That's accurate, but post resurrection and ascension everything was put under his feet except for the one who put everything under him (1 Cor 15:27)


It refers to offspring.


Jesus existed in God's logos (His will, plan, and purposes). God's logos became flesh when God miraculously caused Mary to conceive. God's plan came into fruition.


It refers to God's will, plan, and purposes.

Christ cannot be one of the things created, this says "all things" were made through Him, He cannot be made "through Himself".

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:3 NKJ)

So how to you explain that?

As people can be "offspring" figuratively, you will have to state whether offspring is literal or figurative.

To say Jesus existed "in God's logos" and not as "the logos" is to deny Him pre-existence as a Person. Explain please.

 

[Runningman]

Christ cannot be one of the things created, this says "all things" were made through Him, He cannot be made "through Himself".

Just applies to a specific context, it's in regards to the church. Jesus was himself created.

Revelation 3
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:3 NKJ)

That's not Jesus, that's the Father.

So how to you explain that?

As people can be "offspring" figuratively, you will have to state whether offspring is literal or figurative.

To say Jesus existed "in God's logos" and not as "the logos" is to deny Him pre-existence as a Person. Explain please.

The logos is an it, Jesus is a he.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Man, it's so frustrating and mind-boggling reading through you guys' posts. The simplest explanation is the simulation theory which every layman can understand. Imagine this material world as God's simulation like the Matrix, we're all born and raised in this matrix like fish in the water, while God and his angels operate in the real world. Jesus is God's player character, his own presence and personification in the Matrix. Therefore, from God's perspective, Jesus is a distint person, for example in Dan. 7:13 there 're two God figures -

One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they (ten thousand times ten thousand angels) brought Him (the Son of Man) near before Him (Ancient of Days).

However, from our perspective inside the Matrix, we don't get to see the Ancient of Days because we don't know what we don't know, prophet Daniel only got a glimpse of Him; we get to see the revelation of Him, which is the Son of Man. Whoever obeys the Son obeys the Father, whoever denies the Son denies the Father. 40 weeks of gestation in Virgin Mary's womb doesn't make him a created being, it makes him an incarnated being.

Then you may ask, why was he there in the beginning when Adam was not yet created? Why was he slain "before the foundation of the world?" The purpose of these texts is to clarify that Jesus is not a fix for the mess Adam and Eve made in the garden, he was not an afterthought in reaction of a certain situation. God already knew the fall in the garden, the rebellion of Satan, the salvation of mankind, etc., it's all laid out in the script, the end was declared from the beginning.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Just applies to a specific context, it's in regards to the church. Jesus was himself created.

Revelation 3
14“And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.

That's not Jesus, that's the Father.


The logos is an it, Jesus is a he.

1 John 1
1That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our own eyes, which we have gazed upon and touched with our own hands—this is the Word of life. 2And this is the life that was revealed; we have seen it and testified to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was revealed to us.

Taking a quote out of context to change its meaning is wrong because it misrepresents the original speaker's intentions and can lead to misunderstandings, manipulation, and false narratives.

The context is not the church, "In the beginning" alludes to Genesis 1:1, at that time of Creation "the Word was" existing, ἦν is imperfect indicative hence translations render it “was”.

God made all things through the Word, and apart from Him nothing was made.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (Jn. 1:1-3 NKJ)

Your eisegesis is impossible.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Man, it's so frustrating and mind-boggling reading through you guys' posts. The simplest explanation is the simulation theory which every layman can understand. Imagine this material world as God's simulation like the Matrix, we're all born and raised in this matrix like fish in the water, while God and his angels operate in the real world. Jesus is God's player character, his own presence and personification in the Matrix. Therefore, from God's perspective, Jesus is a distint person, for example in Dan. 7:13 there 're two God figures -

One like the Son of Man, Coming with the clouds of heaven! He came to the Ancient of Days, and they (ten thousand times ten thousand angels) brought Him (the Son of Man) near before Him (Ancient of Days).

However, from our perspective inside the Matrix, we don't get to see the Ancient of Days because we don't know what we don't know, prophet Daniel just got a glimpse of Him; we get to see the revelation of Him, which is the Son of Man. Whoever obeys the Son obeys the Father, whoever denies the Son denies the Father. 40 weeks of gestation in Virgin Mary's womb doesn't make him a created being, it makes him an incarnated being.

Then you may ask, why was he there in the beginning when Adam was not yet created? Why was he slain "before the foundation of the world?" The purpose of these texts is to clarify that Jesus is not a fix for the mess Adam and Eve made in the garden, he was not an afterthought. God already knew the fall in the garden, the rebellion of Satan, the salvation of mankind, etc., it's all laid out in the script, the end was declared from the beginning.

Christians don't believe in a personification in the Matrix, we believe in Jesus revealed in scripture.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Christians don't believe in a personification in the Matrix, we believe in Jesus revealed in scripture.

Then believe in the incarnation of God in this sinful and broken world, which is revealed to you through the Scripture. Tomayto tomahto. If you ever believe that there's a spiritual realm beyond the material world, then this is the closest you can get.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And by the way, this is just a parable to help understand some biblical truth, this world is not just a glorified simulation as much as the kingdom of heaven is not just a wheat field in Jesus's parables, it has its own limits. For example, we're not mere meat puttets, we have a free will, we have human agency to act on our free will, and we're held accountable to our actions. Also, in the end God will terminate this "simulation" and create new heaven and new earth, and we're be made new in "incorruptible bodies", that doesn't happen to player characters. Today's artificial intelligence is so advanced that some robots can write their own programs and act on their own, but that's still not even close, that's just Satan's counterfeit at its best.

 

[Alfred Persson]

And by the way, this is just a parable to help understand some biblical truth, this world is not just a glorified simulation as much as the kingdom of heaven is not just a wheat field in Jesus's parables, it has its own limits. For example, we're not mere meat puttets, we have a free will, we have human agency to act on your free will, and we're held accountable to our actions. Also, in the end God will terminate this "simulation" and create new heaven and new earth, and we're be made new in "incorruptible bodies", that doesn't happen to player characters. Today's artificial intelligence is so advanced that some robots can write their own programs and act on their own, but that's still not even close, that's just Satan's counterfeit at its best.

Great clarification. I was in the process of agreeing our reality is similar to a Matrix, but all should realize the Bible taught this truth thousands of years ago:

All things in the multiverse “consist” or “hold together” by the “thought” of God’s Infinite Mind.

And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together (4921 συνίστημι sunistemi).-(Col. 1:17 NAS)

[God]… is not far from each one of us; “for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said, `For we are also His offspring.’ (Acts 17:26-28 NKJ)

Although we live and move and have our being in God, by the principle of concurrence we are responsible for our actions as we have truly free will. Like in the movie “the Matrix” Neo did as he willed. [1]

The Multiverse exists in God, He is “the Place where all things exist” for “the heaven and heaven of heavens” are contained in Him:

But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded? (1 Ki. 8:27 KJV)

A common term for the Deity in Rabbinic literature is ‘the Place,’ which originates in the doctrine: ‘The Holy One, blessed be He, is the place of His Universe, but His Universe is not His place’ (Gen. R. LXVIII. 9). He encompasses space but space does not encompass Him.”-Abraham Cohen, Everyman’s Talmud, (SCHOCKEN BOOKS, NEW YORK 1995 reprint of 1949 edition) p. 8.

Our reality is real, our salvation real, hell is real, even if there is some analogy to a "simulation." It follows INFINITE MIND would generate something stupendously more than a mere holographic simulation.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Great clarification. I was in the process of agreeing our reality is similar to a Matrix, but all should realize the Bible taught this truth thousands of years ago:

All things in the multiverse “consist” or “hold together” by the “thought” of God’s Infinite Mind.




Although we live and move and have our being in God, by the principle of concurrence we are responsible for our actions as we have truly free will. Like in the movie “the Matrix” Neo did as he willed. [1]

The Multiverse exists in God, He is “the Place where all things exist” for “the heaven and heaven of heavens” are contained in Him:




Our reality is real, our salvation real, hell is real, even if there is some analogy to a "simulation." It follows INFINITE MIND would generate something stupendously more than a mere holographic simulation.

Sadly most people are fully merged into the Matrix, they live like meat puppets with a hive mind, unable to think independently and critically, and no amount of signs and evidence can persuade them, even if they're affected personally. They are called "NPCs" - non-player characters who are programmed with certain behaviors and scripts to instruct, assit or fight player characters. None of this is new, though, in biblical terms they are called spiritually blind, and God could harden their hearts and send them a strong delusion as long as they refuse to "circumcise their hearts" and "open their eyes."

Also, hive mind is not new either, at first it was positive, a sign of unity. When the Holy Spirit was given, all the disciples were of "one accord" (Acts 1:14, 2:1, 2:46). The hive mind of those NPCs, though, is Satan's counterfeit, his own demonic cult.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings "Carry_Your_Name",

40 weeks of gestation in Virgin Mary's womb doesn't make him a created being, it makes him an incarnated being.

I find your general analogies a bit difficult to follow. When we have a child, partaking of portions of a father and a mother we do not consider that the child is "created", but we could say possibly "developed" in the womb and then born. Nevertheless we do use the term "creature". Jesus' father was God the Father, and his mother was Mary, and as such Jesus was born a human, a creature, not a God-man and he was not an "incarnation".

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Greetings "Carry_Your_Name",

I find your general analogies a bit difficult to follow. When we have a child, partaking of portions of a father and a mother we do not consider that the child is "created", but we could say possibly "developed" in the womb and then born. Nevertheless we do use the term "creature". Jesus' father was God the Father, and his mother was Mary, and as such Jesus was born a human, a creature, not a God-man and he was not an "incarnation".

Kind regards
Trevor

Incarnation of God in Christ is the foundation of Christianity. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." - Jn. 1:14. Flesh is created, the Word is not. In your own words, a "developed" being. The point is, He could've appeared as a grown-up man out of thin air, you know, that happened a couple of times in the OT known as theophanies, such as one of the three men appeared to Abraham in Gen. 18, but Jesus went through all the stages of life, from an embryo to an infant, a boy, a teenager, and a young adult before he started his ministry at age 30.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings "Carry_Your_Name",

Incarnation of God in Christ is the foundation of Christianity. "The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth." - Jn. 1:14.

I suggest that "Incarnation of God" is the foundation of the wrong doctrine called the "Trinity". I understand the "Word" in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the Wise Woman "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8.

The point is, He could've appeared as a grown-up man out of thin air, you know, that happened a couple of times in the OT known as theophanies, such as one of the three men appeared to Abraham in Gen. 18

I consider that the Theophanies in the OT were by Angels(s), not Jesus, not the pre-existent God the Son..

Kind regards
Trevor

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I suggest that "Incarnation of God" is the foundation of the wrong doctrine called the "Trinity". I understand the "Word" in John 1:1 is a personification similar to the Wise Woman "Wisdom" in Proverbs 8.

Jn. 1:1 does not contradict Jn. 1:14.

I consider that the Theophanies in the OT were by Angels(s), not Jesus, not the pre-existent God the Son..

No they were not angels. The word "theophany" means manifested form of God.

 

[TrevorL]

Greetings "Carry_Your_Name",

Jn. 1:1 does not contradict Jn. 1:14.

I agree.

No they were not angels. The word "theophany" means manifested form of God.

The Angels revealed God and His Message.

Kind regards
Trevor