The Gullibility or Vainglory of the religious man.

[for_his_glory]

I gave you precious truths, and you did not acknowledge or recognize any of them.. And none of it was vain or profane
babbling.
Christ in us
Douglas Summers

I'm quite sure what you said wasn't vain or profane as I did address what you posted, but apparently it wasn't what you wanted to hear.

 

[Jim Parker]

http://joshuanet.org/articles/ephraem1.htm

This source has presented a sermon by Pseudo-Ephraem as being from Ephraem the Syrian.
He is mistaken. They are not the same person and Ephraem the Syrian did NOT write the passage he offers a "evidence."
(I hope he is mistaken and not willfully misrepresenting the facts. In either case, he doesn't know what he's talking about.)

http://www.pre-trib.org/articles/view/a-history-of-pre-darby-rapture-advocates

This article offers no help in finding Darby's "rapture" in the early church.

From the article:
(1) "While Hermas clearly speaks of escaping the tribulation, pretribulationists and non-pretribulationists tend to agree that he does not articulate a clear message similar to modern pretribulationism." (My emphasis)

(2) Some have thought that Irenaeus (c. 180) could be a pre-trib rapture statement since he actually speaks of the rapture: the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation], as noted below: (Some??? Could be??? That is not evidence)

“And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption”

However, the very next statement speaks of believers in the tribulation. When taken within the context of all of Irenaeus writings on these subjects, it appears that he was not teaching pretribulationism. (With these words, the writer of the article refutes the notion that Irenaeus could have supported a pretribulation "rapture.")

(3) Pseudo-Ephraem: Nobody knows who he was or what influence he had (if any) or whether his sermon reflected widely held opinion or his own personal opinion.

The article is of no value whatsoever in demonstrating any evidence of widespread or even local belief in a doctrine very similar to the modern - Rapture - Pre/Mid/Post Millennium teachings.

Neither article demonstrates the acceptance anywhere or at any time in the early Church of a doctrine similar to the modern "Rapture" teaching.

As best I can tell, it started with Darby.



Iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

I'm quite sure what you said wasn't vain or profane as I did address what you posted, but apparently it wasn't what you wanted to hear.

I expected a born again believer to recognize the teaching and truth of God in the life of another born again believer and rejoice that God answers us if we have questions, not relying on our own so called wisdom and running ahead of the Lord with making our own assumptions and doctrines. If a man will admit His vanity, God Will reveal to us the Truth. (1 Cor. 1:29-31)

 

[Jim Parker]

I expected a born again believer to recognize the teaching and truth of God in the life of another born again believer

Would that be a Baptist born again believer or a Pentecostal born again believer or an Anglican born again believer or a Lutheran born again believer (and which synod?) or a nondenominational born again believer or.....

Houston, we have a problem.....

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

Would that be a Baptist born again believer or a Pentecostal born again believer or an Anglican born again believer or a Lutheran born again believer (and which synod?) or a nondenominational born again believer or.....

Houston, we have a problem.....

iakov the fool

Jim, A born again believer has no denomination. If you are a born again believer, you should know that. If you are born of the Spirit, you are a born again believer. If you subscribe to a denomination, then you subscribe to a particular or peculiar doctrine. Every denomination has a different belief and thy demand their followers to adhere to It. I demand nothing, I preach or teach what I know...I don't demand it for others to believe it, I just defend it. There will be no denomination on the Throne of Christ, just the Saints (sanctified) by the Blood of Christ. (Rev. 12:10-12)

 

[Jim Parker]

If you subscribe to a denomination, then you subscribe to a particular or peculiar doctrine.

Do you go to a church?
Does the church have any denominational connections?
People who go to church go to a church that is either connected with a particular denomination or which calls itself "nondenominational" which is just another form of a denomination.
You know that there are literally thousands of denominations.
You know that every one of them has many (hopefully mostly) born again believers in them.
So, I don't know what you are arguing about.

 

[Douglas Summers]

Do you go to a church?
Does the church have any denominational connections?
People who go to church go to a church that is either connected with a particular denomination or which calls itself "nondenominational" which is just another form of a denomination.
You know that there are literally thousands of denominations.
You know that every one of them has many (hopefully mostly) born again believers in them.
So, I don't know what you are arguing about.

That was not an argument. I do not belong to any local Church, But my calling and election is pastor/teacher of Christ's doctrine (2 John 1:9) of God's grace. I do not tickle men's ears but teach sound doctrine. I'am ready in season and out of season. I reprove, rebuke and encourage, sometimes with too much zeal and not enough patient instruction (but when I realize that, I repent). The visible church (what I would call "Christendom") gather around them teachers that suit their own desires. There are still Sadducee and Pharisees and Herodian types, even today as there were in Christ's ministry, who turn their ears away from the Truth and follow after the reasoning of myths and men. (2 Tim. 4:1-4)

 

[chessman]

For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption”

Ireneaus taught it is the “church”, the “righteous”, the “brothers” and we alone who “overcome” and are raised “crowned with incorruption” and “immortality”, not ‘all mankind’:

But I say this, brothers, that flesh and blood is not able to inherit the kingdom of God, nor can corruption inherit incorruptibility. Behold, I tell you a mystery: we will not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For it is necessary for this perishable body to put on incorruptibility, and this mortal body to put on immortality.​

1 Corinthians 15:50-53 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 Corinthians 15:50-53&version=LEB

For the non-believers, Irenaeus taught they do NOT overcome corruption and mortality:

“Those nations however, who did not of themselves raise up their eyes unto heaven, nor returned thanks to their Maker, nor wished to behold the light of truth, but who were like blind mice concealed in the depths of ignorance, the word justly reckons "as waste water from a sink, and as the turning-weight of a balance-in fact, as nothing; " so far useful and serviceable to the just, as stubble conduces towards the growth of the wheat, and its straw, by means of combustion, serves for working gold. And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, "There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be." For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption.”
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/irenaeus-book5.html​

Non-overcomers are just that, non-overcomers of corruption and mortality; waste-water, chaff, straw, compost. The church, on the otherhand, covercomes.

 

[Jim Parker]

I do not belong to any local Church, But my calling and election is pastor/teacher of Christ's doctrine (2 John 1:9) of God's grace.

OK
I'm confused. If you don't go to any local church then how do you "pastor" and teach?

And what do you do with this teaching of scripture?
Heb 10:24-25 And let us consider one another in order to stir up love and good works, not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as is the manner of some, but exhorting one another, and so much the more as you see the Day approaching.

There are still Sadducee and Pharisees and Herodian types, even today as there were in Christ's ministry, who turn their ears away from the Truth and follow after the reasoning of myths and men.

Brother, that is a fact.
It is difficult to find a local church that teaches sound doctrine.
Many are family businesses masquerading as a Church. (Religion has always been a good business!)

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

OK
I'm confused. If you don't go to any local church then how do you "pastor" and teach?

Evangelist.

 

[for_his_glory]

Evangelist.

Even an Evangelist is associated with a certain home based Church as they receive their license through the Church and approved by the State they live in. That's how I became an Evangelist, but when the doors of that Church was forced to close I was no longer a licensed Evangelist through the sponsorship of that Church as my licensed ran out and I never renewed it.

 

[for_his_glory]

I expected a born again believer to recognize the teaching and truth of God in the life of another born again believer and rejoice that God answers us if we have questions, not relying on our own so called wisdom and running ahead of the Lord with making our own assumptions and doctrines. If a man will admit His vanity, God Will reveal to us the Truth. (1 Cor. 1:29-31)

God also doesn't like a self righteous person who calls themselves born again and deems those who do not agree with what they teach as not being born again. There are many doctrines taught from many denominations and non denominations that come from mans teaching (bandwagon), but not from an anointed teaching from God given to them.
1 John 2:
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming. 29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

 

[Jim Parker]

Evangelist.

OK
But evangelists do not "pastor" and, though they may do some teaching, that is not their primary MOS.

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

Even an Evangelist is associated with a certain home based Church as they receive their license through the Church and approved by the State they live in. That's how I became an Evangelist, but when the doors of that Church was forced to close I was no longer a licensed Evangelist through the sponsorship of that Church as my licensed ran out and I never renewed it.

I'am surprised glory that you think I need a license over calling and election by God or to even be ordained by a man?? Especially from the corrupted State political system. I helped start a church about 36 years ago (physically and Spiritually) along with a group of Christians that were worshiping at a school stadium. We hired a pastor, bought a building and were able to worship inside. We did not have a lot of money and payed the pastor about $400 a week. A little later we went to about $600 a week and let him use the Church for a counseling service where he would charge for counseling for extra money. Then he wanted to buy a house, we gave him $5000 for a down payment. He called a business meeting one week but non many came to this meeting, and while I and a few others were there, he gave himself another raise. I said there was not a majority to OK the raise at that time, but he said They knew there was a meeting, It's not my fault they did not show up. (They may have if he would have mentioned what the meeting was about, He said he graduated with a 4 year degree from a seminary and he should make more money. We hired his wife as his secretary for more income. He was making about $750 a week t that time. We did not know it, but he had already accepted a pastoral position at another church in another state before he asked for the $5000 for a down payment for a house.....then he just left. He was ordained and a college minister!!! He never made his teen aage daughter come to Wednesday service ans she stayed home with her boyfriend and she became a pregnant teenage mother.


Without a pastor, we interviewed someone for the position and he said he would do a Sunday service to see if we could see what he preached. In the interview he told us that our recent pastor left because we would not give him any money and he agreed with the pastor and began to lecture us on money. He was another ordained pastor. Any ordained or licensed pastor we hired, were just that, a (Hirelings) (John 10:11-14) and was always either about money or living their lives according to the flesh. A few times the Lord called me from the pew to preach without a license. I have no part in the ecumenical movement or of the world council of churches. He is coming, and He will not be checking to see if you have a license., But as the sound of a trump, He will say,"come up Here" (Rev. 1:10)

 

[Jim Parker]

I'am surprised glory that you think I need a license over calling and election by God or to even be ordained by a man??

You don't need no stinkin' license.
I didn't suggest anything of the kind.
The callings are from God, not from man.
BUT: and evangelist is not the same as a pastor or a teacher.

We hired a pastor, bought a building and were able to worship inside. We did not have a lot of money and payed the pastor about $400 a week. A little later we went to about $600 a week and let him use the Church for a counseling service where he would charge for counseling for extra money. Then he wanted to buy a house, we gave him $5000 for a down payment.

Paul said that a pastor should be paid.
1Co 9:9-11 For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.” Is it oxen God is concerned about? Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things?
1Ti 5:17-18 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.
For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”
The fact that people go into the ministry who don't belong there is not a reason to ignore scripture's teaching to pay your pastor.

You seem qualified.
Perhaps you should pastor a church.

iakov the fool

 

[Douglas Summers]

OK
But evangelists do not "pastor" and, though they may do some teaching, that is not their primary MOS.

iakov the fool

We are not bound by mans definition Jim, but by the conforming to the image of Christ. (Rom. 8:28-30) This is not just a bunch of words for men to use as he sees fit to use them, but they are a WITNESS....Yes, A WITNESS to and a conformation of the invisible work, and POWER of God's Spirit, The working of the New Man. Not many let the Lord work His Spirit, except the called and elect, but others speak out of turn apart from God and tacking His name to it.

 

[Douglas Summers]

You don't need no stinkin' license.
I didn't suggest anything of the kind.
The callings are from God, not from man.
BUT: and evangelist is not the same as a pastor or a teacher.

Paul said that a pastor should be paid.
1Co 9:9-11 For it is written in the law of Moses, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain.” Is it oxen God is concerned about? Or does He say it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written, that he who plows should plow in hope, and he who threshes in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown spiritual things for you, is it a great thing if we reap your material things?
1Ti 5:17-18 Let the elders who rule well be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who labor in the word and doctrine.
For the Scripture says, “You shall not muzzle an ox while it treads out the grain,” and, “The laborer is worthy of his wages.”
The fact that people go into the ministry who don't belong there is not a reason to ignore scripture's teaching to pay your pastor.

You seem qualified.
Perhaps you should pastor a church.

iakov the fool

Sorry Jim, This was in answer to for-His-glory.

 

[Jim Parker]

We are not bound by mans definition

Those are not "man's" definitions.
They're from the scriptures.
We do not get to assign any meaning to the words we feel like.
A "pastor" is one who cares for a flock.
An "evangelist" is one who proclaims the good news so that those who hear may believe.
A teacher is one who instructs believers in the truths of scripture.
That is what the words meant to the 1st century Church and that is what they should mean today.
They are not identical or interchangeable but an individual may have more than one calling.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'am surprised glory that you think I need a license over calling and election by God or to even be ordained by a man?? Especially from the corrupted State political system. I helped start a church about 36 years ago (physically and Spiritually) along with a group of Christians that were worshiping at a school stadium. We hired a pastor, bought a building and were able to worship inside. We did not have a lot of money and payed the pastor about $400 a week. A little later we went to about $600 a week and let him use the Church for a counseling service where he would charge for counseling for extra money. Then he wanted to buy a house, we gave him $5000 for a down payment. He called a business meeting one week but non many came to this meeting, and while I and a few others were there, he gave himself another raise. I said there was not a majority to OK the raise at that time, but he said They knew there was a meeting, It's not my fault they did not show up. (They may have if he would have mentioned what the meeting was about, He said he graduated with a 4 year degree from a seminary and he should make more money. We hired his wife as his secretary for more income. He was making about $750 a week t that time. We did not know it, but he had already accepted a pastoral position at another church in another state before he asked for the $5000 for a down payment for a house.....then he just left. He was ordained and a college minister!!! He never made his teen aage daughter come to Wednesday service ans she stayed home with her boyfriend and she became a pregnant teenage mother.


Without a pastor, we interviewed someone for the position and he said he would do a Sunday service to see if we could see what he preached. In the interview he told us that our recent pastor left because we would not give him any money and he agreed with the pastor and began to lecture us on money. He was another ordained pastor. Any ordained or licensed pastor we hired, were just that, a (Hirelings) (John 10:11-14) and was always either about money or living their lives according to the flesh. A few times the Lord called me from the pew to preach without a license. I have no part in the ecumenical movement or of the world council of churches. He is coming, and He will not be checking to see if you have a license., But as the sound of a trump, He will say,"come up Here" (Rev. 1:10)

Yes, it does have to be a calling from God first and foremost as the Holy Spirit distributes the gifts that are given and God sets up the leadership of His Church, 1 Corinthians 12. I agree not all need a license to teach the word, but some places like the state penitentiaries that I taught in required you were a licensed Pastor/Evangelist.

Scripture also says to provide for the Pastor, but it should be up to the Board members, not the Pastor, to set up a certain percentage of the offerings that they are to be paid from. A Pastor who has a family to take care of should receive an amount that will supply their needs, but anything above their needs should be met for by themselves. That's how we did it when I was on the Board of the Church we started. If the Pastor rejected that of what we could afford to give them, then they are not in it for the calling, but for self gain.

OT tithe was done under the law commanded by God as to provide for the storehouse of the Temple that would sustain the needs of the Priest, (old covenant under the law Nehemiah 10:38; Malachi 3:10).

NT tithe is done under a new covenant of grace as also providing for the storehouse that sustains the needs of our Pastors. (Matthew 10:10-14; Luke 10:1-7; 1Corinthians 9:9, 14; 1Timothy 5:17, 18;).

 

[Douglas Summers]

The fact that people go into the ministry who don't belong there is not a reason to ignore scripture's teaching to pay your pastor.

Paying the pastor was not a problem. We were a small church membership. The problem was a Spiritual one. His main interest was money ahead of The Body. We paid the Pastor what we could afford. He could have said, he could not afford to pastor the church instead of trying to make money above the Gospel. This was back in the early 80's. Things were lot cheaper then.