The Holy Trinity vs. Salvation

[Guest]

We need to be careful here as there isn't the Trinity and a "Oneness Trinity." There is the Trinity and there is Oneness; Oneness is opposed to the Trinity.

No, not necessarily. As I said, people believe and confess all sorts of ideas about God. Some confess Jesus as God but not the Father, some confess Jesus as God the Father, and some confess Jesus as a created being, a lesser god, and some confess him as a mere man.


That is not what that verse states.

Hi Free, blessings. If you are saying that putting a label on the Trinity is man's will and not Gods, then I agree. Because the label 'Oneness Trinity' is out there whether we like it or not. Believing and confessing, can man not create false salvation? Are you saying that people that confess all sorts of ideas about God is a good thing?? Because in the ideas that you've stated, all it takes is to find one false lead. Jesus was not just a mere man. Remember when he was standing before Pilate, Jesus said there is only one truth, be true to God. John 18:37 is of the truth, not a truth, the truth - I understand that John 4:24 does not state that, I was referring to who God is after salvation. Is the Holy Spirit not of God and from God? Is God not a spirit?

 

[Free]

Hi Free, blessings. If you are saying that putting a label on the Trinity is man's will and not Gods, then I agree.

No, that is not what I am saying but there is nothing wrong with putting labels on things.

Because the label 'Oneness Trinity' is out there whether we like it or not.

Well, I have done much study in this area and I have never seen "Oneness Trinity." There is Oneness and there is Trinity. Oneness is modalism, or the heresy known as Sabellianism, and that is quite different from the Trinity.

Believing and confessing, can man not create false salvation? Are you saying that people that confess all sorts of ideas about God is a good thing??

No, of course I'm not saying such a thing.

Because in the ideas that you've stated, all it takes is to find one false lead. Jesus was not just a mere man. Remember when he was standing before Pilate, Jesus said there is only one truth, be true to God. John 18:37 is of the truth, not a truth, the truth - I understand that John 4:24 does not state that, I was referring to who God is after salvation. Is the Holy Spirit not of God and from God? Is God not a spirit?

I don't follow what you're saying here. I've already addressed what you said about John 4:24. I don't understand what you mean by "who God is after salvation." He's the same as before salvation.

 

[Guest]

I don't follow what you're saying here. I've already addressed what you said about John 4:24. I don't understand what you mean by "who God is after salvation." He's the same as before salvation.

Yes he is the same, but he reveals himself as a spirit through a person's belief in Jesus Christ. For example, one of your friends can have the same personality, but one day your friend reveals himself to you as a musician. You didn't know he was a musician until he revealed it to you. Well, God reveals himself to you as a spirit through the Holy Spirit. That is the good news, the good news is in his resurrection. Another example is that your friend isn't just revealing to you that he's a musician, but there are other characteristics and talents that go with being a musician. Your friend could open your eyes to a new way of writing lyrics or playing the guitar. He can teach you new things, why do you think bands exist. Well, when God reveals himself to you as a spirit, there's more to his spirit than just being a spirit..his spirit includes love, mercy, peace, comforter, helper, guidance, holiness, the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit etc etc..what is your belief in Jesus Christ and his resurrection?

No, you didn't address me, all you said was 'that's not what the verse states', so I answered you; which led us to the Holy Spirit. Do you know what I'm referring to when I say the Holy Spirit? Where does the Holy Spirit come from? There is a reason the words Holy.......and.......Spirit are connected. He doesn't just give it to everybody on the street, there's a belief we have to acquire in order to receive it, right?

Well, I have done much study in this area and I have never seen "Oneness Trinity." There is Oneness and there is Trinity. Oneness is modalism, or the heresy known as Sabellianism, and that is quite different from the Trinity.

Regardless if we think that the Holy Trinity is One God manifesting himself into three different ways or One God manifesting himself into three different persons,

Is what I quoted here not two different beliefs in the trinity? I'm trying to agree with you in regards to your idea of what the Holy Trinity is, forget the labels for a second. You say the Trinity is simply named the Trinity, ok so what is your belief of the trinity and salvation? If you don't think people having false interpretations of the trinity leads them astray from salvation, then we need to question our belief of what salvation is. What is your belief in Jesus Christ and his resurrection?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

It has been debated upon and fought over throughout the centuries of who God, the Holy Spirit and Jesus are. Regardless if we think that Oneness Trinity or Non-Oneness is true, does it even matter if we don't even know what salvation is?

The question of salvation can be resolved -- and quite frequently is -- without ever considering the question of the Trinity. No, no one is being prevented from trusting Christ because they don't understand the Trinity.

 

[Sinthesis]

Fortunately, because nobody understands the trinity, but we can accept it on faith.

 

[Free]

Yes he is the same, but he reveals himself as a spirit through a person's belief in Jesus Christ. For example, one of your friends can have the same personality, but one day your friend reveals himself to you as a musician. You didn't know he was a musician until he revealed it to you. Well, God reveals himself to you as a spirit through the Holy Spirit.

I don't think that is the case at all. It is reasonable to conclude that God is a spirit based on the fact that he is a supernatural being. This is something that is plainly evident to anyone, believer or not.

That is the good news, the good news is in his resurrection. Another example is that your friend isn't just revealing to you that he's a musician, but there are other characteristics and talents that go with being a musician. Your friend could open your eyes to a new way of writing lyrics or playing the guitar. He can teach you new things, why do you think bands exist. Well, when God reveals himself to you as a spirit, there's more to his spirit than just being a spirit..his spirit includes love, mercy, peace, comforter, helper, guidance, holiness, the fruits and gifts of the Holy Spirit etc etc..what is your belief in Jesus Christ and his resurrection?

I don't see what any of that has to do with God being a spirit.

No, you didn't address me, all you said was 'that's not what the verse states', so I answered you; which led us to the Holy Spirit. Do you know what I'm referring to when I say the Holy Spirit? Where does the Holy Spirit come from? There is a reason the words Holy.......and.......Spirit are connected. He doesn't just give it to everybody on the street, there's a belief we have to acquire in order to receive it, right?

You first stated: "God the Father reveals himself as a spirit only after salvation. John 4:24."

I replied: "That is not what that verse states."

You replied to that with: "I understand that John 4:24 does not state that, I was referring to who God is after salvation."

But that statement is self-contradictory. The second half reiterates your first statement about John 4:24, yet you agree in the first half that it doesn't say that.

Well, I have done much study in this area and I have never seen "Oneness Trinity." There is Oneness and there is Trinity. Oneness is modalism, or the heresy known as Sabellianism, and that is quite different from the Trinity.

Regardless if we think that the Holy Trinity is One God manifesting himself into three different ways or One God manifesting himself into three different persons,

Is what I quoted here not two different beliefs in the trinity?

No. Oneness/modalism/Sabellianism is not trinitarianism. Of course, just so we're even more clear, these are three distinct persons who co-exist and are co-equal. Oneness disagrees with the distinctness and essentially claim that Jesus is the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

You say the Trinity is simply named the Trinity

Yes, it is.

ok so what is your belief of the trinity and salvation? If you don't think people having false interpretations of the trinity leads them astray from salvation, then we need to question our belief of what salvation is.

I have never made such a statement.

 

[Guest]

The question of salvation can be resolved -- and quite frequently is -- without ever considering the question of the Trinity. No, no one is being prevented from trusting Christ because they don't understand the Trinity.

I agree, we have a more clear understanding of the Holy Trinity only after salvation though. All I'm saying is God reveals himself to you as a spirit through the Holy Spirit only after salvation. The Holy Spirit is a gift from God and of God.

Free, but it is the case. God reveals himself to you as a spirit through your belief in Jesus Christ. I just don't know what your belief is in him or your belief in his resurrection. You haven't told me yet. Belief and Faith are synonyms of each other before salvation, but only after Salvation does Believing and Faith turn to the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. <---Do you know what I mean when I say this? The Holy Spirit isn't just words smashed together and thrown into the Bible, why do you think it's part of the Trinity? You're not gonna understand what I'm saying until you address your belief of who Jesus Christ is and what his resurrections mean to you. Where did Jesus go after he died? Also, why aren't you calling the Trinity the Holy Trinity. Is God not Holy to you? www.truth-reason.com/2011/05/22/four-resurrections/

 

[WIP]

I don't claim to understand the trinity but I accept it as real.

 

[Free]

Free, but it is the case. God reveals himself to you as a spirit through your belief in Jesus Christ.

It is a reasonable conclusion that God is a spirit based on the fact that he is a supernatural being. Many people around the world that aren't Christians believe that spirits exist and even that a "higher power" or god of some sort exists as a spirit.

I really don't see the point of your statement anyway.

I just don't know what your belief is in him or your belief in his resurrection. You haven't told me yet. Belief and Faith are synonyms of each other before salvation, but only after Salvation does Believing and Faith turn to the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. <---Do you know what I mean when I say this?

Not really. Belief and faith are not synonyms, neither before nor after salvation.

The Holy Spirit isn't just words smashed together and thrown into the Bible, why do you think it's part of the Trinity?

Why do you seem to think I don't know who the Holy Spirit is?

You're not gonna understand what I'm saying until you address your belief of who Jesus Christ is and what his resurrections mean to you. Where did Jesus go after he died?

Jesus went and preached to the "spirits in prison."

Also, why aren't you calling the Trinity the Holy Trinity.

Because there is no need. You previously stated it's man's label, so why should it be necessary to also add the term "Holy"?

 

[Guest]

Free, do you think that God being a supernatural being, being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent is able to resurrect himself inside believers who believe that Jesus is Lord God? I still haven't heard your belief in his resurrection(s). They are synonyms before salvation because the unbeliever does not know exactly what they are believing and confessing in, all the unbeliever knows is that there is something more out there. You admit the Holy Spirit is there, but you're not mentioning the function of the Holy Spirit, it has a purpose. What is it's purpose? Jesus preached to just more than that my friend. Have you never heard of The Sermon on the Mount? Weren't people flocking to his teachings by the hundreds. What about all of the miracles Jesus performed, he performed close to seven miracles on the Sabbath if not seven. He also predicted the future in many occasions, Jesus predicted the rooster would crow three times with Peter. Mark 14:72 - Also, John 8:58 says before Abraham was, I Am!

Putting Jesus in a box is exactly the opposite of who he is. Jesus walked out of the church, and walked the earth teaching his Ministry. He wasn't confined to a building. The body/mind/soul/spirit of Jesus IS the church! When you're baptized in the Holy Spirit, your body/mind/soul/spirit now become a holy vessel for God! Holy cannot be compared to oneness. Oneness is a belief from man. Holiness is a characteristic of God. Holiness is a fact of God!

 

[gr8grace]

I agree, we have a more clear understanding of the Holy Trinity only after salvation though. All I'm saying is God reveals himself to you as a spirit through the Holy Spirit only after salvation. The Holy Spirit is a gift from God and of God.

Free, but it is the case. God reveals himself to you as a spirit through your belief in Jesus Christ. I just don't know what your belief is in him or your belief in his resurrection. You haven't told me yet. Belief and Faith are synonyms of each other before salvation, but only after Salvation does Believing and Faith turn to the Holy Spirit and the Word of God. <---Do you know what I mean when I say this? The Holy Spirit isn't just words smashed together and thrown into the Bible, why do you think it's part of the Trinity? You're not gonna understand what I'm saying until you address your belief of who Jesus Christ is and what his resurrections mean to you. Where did Jesus go after he died? Also, why aren't you calling the Trinity the Holy Trinity. Is God not Holy to you? www.truth-reason.com/2011/05/22/four-resurrections/

Urk,

pertaining to the Link that you provided, do you go to church there?

This is what I found on their site:
It is now that you should make a self-examination. As we stated in the Introduction, it required of us
to know whether or not we are even in Christ (2 Cor. 13:5). So ask yourself:
• Do I accept the Word of God as my authority for all I say and do?
• Is the New Testament — the words of Jesus Christ — the source of my authority?
• Am I willing to accept the teaching of God's Word, even when it conflicts with my current practice
and/or teaching?
• Do I recognize that if I am outside of Christ, I am lost in my sins?
• Have I been saved from my past sins, in the way individuals were in the New Testament?
Date I was saved: ______________________ Date I was baptized: _______________________
• Do I acknowledge I cannot remove my sins of my own abilities?
• Have I recognized that God established the plan of salvation and revealed that plan through the
written Word, the Bible?
• Have I heard the Word of God — particularly, the gospel?
• Have I been convicted of my sins and believed that same gospel message?
• Have I repented of my sins, resolving to change my heart and life?
• Have I confessed my belief, and do I daily confess it?
• Have I been baptized [immersed in water] for the remission of my sins?
• Am I now living faithfully in service to Jesus Christ as His disciple?
If you can truthfully say "yes" to all of the above questions, then you may rest assured you are saved.
But, let me caution you: If the date you were saved and the date you were baptized are different, then you
most likely were not baptized for the right reason and you are not a child of God. Though you may have
believed that Jesus is the Christ, we have already shown that mere belief is not enough. Take a look again
at the conversions in the New Testament. That is how individuals were saved then, and it has not changed.

Its Lordship salvation. And works salvation.

 

[Guest]

Urk,

pertaining to the Link that you provided, do you go to church there?

This is what I found on their site:
It is now that you should make a self-examination. As we stated in the Introduction, it required of us
to know whether or not we are even in Christ (2 Cor. 13:5). So ask yourself:
• Do I accept the Word of God as my authority for all I say and do?
• Is the New Testament — the words of Jesus Christ — the source of my authority?
• Am I willing to accept the teaching of God's Word, even when it conflicts with my current practice
and/or teaching?
• Do I recognize that if I am outside of Christ, I am lost in my sins?
• Have I been saved from my past sins, in the way individuals were in the New Testament?
Date I was saved: ______________________ Date I was baptized: _______________________
• Do I acknowledge I cannot remove my sins of my own abilities?
• Have I recognized that God established the plan of salvation and revealed that plan through the
written Word, the Bible?
• Have I heard the Word of God — particularly, the gospel?
• Have I been convicted of my sins and believed that same gospel message?
• Have I repented of my sins, resolving to change my heart and life?
• Have I confessed my belief, and do I daily confess it?
• Have I been baptized [immersed in water] for the remission of my sins?
• Am I now living faithfully in service to Jesus Christ as His disciple?
If you can truthfully say "yes" to all of the above questions, then you may rest assured you are saved.
But, let me caution you: If the date you were saved and the date you were baptized are different, then you
most likely were not baptized for the right reason and you are not a child of God. Though you may have
believed that Jesus is the Christ, we have already shown that mere belief is not enough. Take a look again
at the conversions in the New Testament. That is how individuals were saved then, and it has not changed.

Its Lordship salvation. And works salvation.

No, I do not live in that city. However you word 'God drawing you in by his grace' would be the right name. We need not forget that Jesus himself is the church, it is all in his resurrection. This is not my website, I chose this website because of the descriptions of the resurrections, so where you see fault, let me know.

 

[Guest]

I don't even need websites anymore, I'll just use scripture to discern truth.

 

[Free]

Free, do you think that God being a supernatural being, being omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent is able to resurrect himself inside believers who believe that Jesus is Lord God? I still haven't heard your belief in his resurrection(s).

I don't think that God resurrects himself inside of believers. That would imply that he was dead inside. He indwells us through the Holy Spirit. Christ was raised and we will be raised but other than that, I don't know what you want to know regarding "his resurrection(s)," other than I find some things problematic on that site you provided.

They are synonyms before salvation because the unbeliever does not know exactly what they are believing and confessing in, all the unbeliever knows is that there is something more out there.

But none of that means that belief and faith are synonyms.

You admit the Holy Spirit is there, but you're not mentioning the function of the Holy Spirit, it has a purpose. What is it's purpose?

Of course I "admit the Holy Spirit is there," I am a trinitarian after all. And let's make sure we properly refer to the Holy Spirit as "he," not "it." The Holy Spirit has many purposes.

Jesus preached to just more than that my friend. Have you never heard of The Sermon on the Mount? Weren't people flocking to his teachings by the hundreds. What about all of the miracles Jesus performed, he performed close to seven miracles on the Sabbath if not seven. He also predicted the future in many occasions, Jesus predicted the rooster would crow three times with Peter. Mark 14:72 - Also, John 8:58 says before Abraham was, I Am!

I'm not sure what your point is here as you seem to be addressing something I haven't said.

 

[Guest]

Free, I am declaring it through my own lips that he does in fact resurrect himself inside believers. I am telling you this through my own experience and salvation. Dead inside, what?? No, He resurrects himself inside believers because he is ALIVE in heaven!! You must be born again of the Holy Spirit in this lifetime to enter Holy Land after death. Read John Chapter 3. What's wrong with addressing things you haven't said, there's more to Jesus than him preaching to spirits in prison. Are you at all interested in what I am saying or are you shrugging it off, and set in your ways. I'm trying to open your eyes to who Jesus is. I ask you what your belief in Jesus is and all you said was he preached to spirits in prison. Is that all Jesus is to you?

Jesus preached to more than that my friend. Have you never heard of The Sermon on the Mount? Weren't people flocking to his teachings by the hundreds. What about all of the miracles Jesus performed, he performed close to seven miracles on the Sabbath if not seven. He also predicted the future in many occasions, Jesus predicted the rooster would crow three times with Peter. Mark 14:72 - Also, John 8:58 says before Abraham was, I Am!

I'm not talking just to fill time. Read what I'm saying to you with sincerity.

 

[for_his_glory]

When I was seventeen I asked Jesus to be my Savior because a friend of mine took me to his Church and I repeated something called a sinners pray and I thought that was all I needed to do so I would not go to hell. I had no knowledge of Jesus, except for the nice stories I heard read about Him in Sunday School class when I was little. I quit going to Church when I was fourteen as I got bored with it. I'm not saying one has to repeat what others call as in a standard prayer "The Sinners Prayer" as that is just formality and at least for me it was not from the heart. I went to that Church for a few weeks until I broke up with the guy that took me there and soon I fell away from going altogether. I didn't experience this hugh Spiritual change in me like you hear in others testimonies. But here is the kicker. Even though I fell away from going to Church for many years after that, Jesus still had a hold on me even though I did not know it at the time. I was never taught what Gods grace was or even what Salvation or the Holy Spirit was all about in the beginning, but in that Church on that day when I asked Jesus to be my Lord and Savior that was the beginning of my salvation, even though I did not know it at the time. It would not be until many years later that I found myself going back to Church and then I started learning what Gods salvation through His grace was all about and was at that time that I knew I always had the Holy Spirit dwelling in me, but just did not know it. All those years I always felt something in me that would take my mind back to Jesus and the Church and here it was Gods Spirit (Holy Spirit) nudging me back to His fellowship. I did return and it was then that I started learning who God is, who Jesus is and who the Holy Spirit is.

Faith the size of a mustard seed that someone planted inside of you germinates as another waters and then God brings in the harvest.

 

[gr8grace]

I don't even need websites anymore, I'll just use scripture to discern truth.

Urk,

What did you get from that resurrection article? to be Honest with you I think it has subtle untruths in it. And there is a message of uncertainty in it for a purpose.

 

[farouk]

Hi for his glory:

Yes, it's good and vitally important to get a doctrinal and Scriptural understanding of what the new birth (John 3, etc) really is, as the sinner learns personally by grace about the love of the Saviour in dying at the Cross for sinners.

Blessings.

 

[Guest]

Urk,

What did you get from that resurrection article? to be Honest with you I think it has subtle untruths in it. And there is a message of uncertainty in it for a purpose.

Well, I didn't fully read the whole website, just the resurrection parts, which was a mistake by me. I just figured since the truth is already in my heart, any website would do. I will no longer be using websites, ty for pointing this out and bringing to my attention. I will just be using my Faith and scripture to discern truth. Blessings.

 

[Free]

Free, I am declaring it through my own lips that he does in fact resurrect himself inside believers. I am telling you this through my own experience and salvation. Dead inside, what?? No, He resurrects himself inside believers because he is ALIVE in heaven!!

What is the definition of "resurrect"? It just isn't terminology I would use since it implies he was dead inside believers.

What's wrong with addressing things you haven't said, there's more to Jesus than him preaching to spirits in prison.

There is something wrong when you go making points beyond what you first asked.

You asked, in the context of Jesus' resurrection: "Where did Jesus go after he died?"

I replied: Jesus went and preached to the "spirits in prison."

You then replied: "Jesus preached to just more than that my friend. Have you never heard of The Sermon on the Mount? Weren't people flocking to his teachings by the hundreds. What about all of the miracles Jesus performed, he performed close to seven miracles on the Sabbath if not seven. He also predicted the future in many occasions, Jesus predicted the rooster would crow three times with Peter. Mark 14:72 - Also, John 8:58 says before Abraham was, I Am!"

But that has nothing to do with what you asked and to which I responded. That is a problem.

I'm trying to open your eyes to who Jesus is.

And why do you presume that I don't know who Jesus is?

I ask you what your belief in Jesus is and all you said was he preached to spirits in prison.

As I have shown above, that is not how the discussion went. And besides, I have clearly stated I am a trinitarian, so that should tell you most of what I believe about Jesus.

Is that all Jesus is to you?

I'm not even going to answer that.

I'm not talking just to fill time. Read what I'm saying to you with sincerity.

It is clear that you are unwilling or unable to follow the debate, even your own end of things. I think it best that I just bow out of this discussion.