The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[Free]

For real though,we can't comprehend what forever is,but one thing I know for sure is our Father wouldn't let His children suffer anywhere forever much less being tortured at the same time.

And chessman .

There are two major issues with the lake of fire resulting in destruction of the form of ceasing to exist (there is another depending on one's view of what happens to the dead between now and then). Firstly, seeing as how all men are made in God's image, it is actually morally greater that God not annihilate his creatures and let them live apart from Him. Secondly, annihilation isn't punishment. Jesus gave very severe warnings about the final destination of unbelievers. But ceasing to exist not only isn't punishment, it isn't even remotely in line with the severity of Jesus's warnings about Hell. Punishment is only punishment if one is consciously aware.

 

[FreeGrace]

I will post this again as we either believe the scriptures or our own carnal understanding.

The Apostle John says that the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they shall have no rest day and night; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). Jesus said that the lake of fire is a furnace of fire in Matthew 13:41, 42 and outer darkness in Matthew 22:13.

The fact that the lake of fire is eternal is plain from the following verses where it is described as:
1. Everlasting fire.......................Matthew 25:41
2. Everlasting punishment...........Matthew 25:46
3. Eternal damnation..................Mark 3:29
4. Everlasting destruction.......... II Thessalonians 1:9
5. Everlasting contempt..............Daniel 12:2
6. Torment forever and ever.......Revelation 14:9-11
7. Blackness of darkness forever.....Jude 13
8. Vengeance of eternal life............Jude 7
9. Lake of fire--forever and ever......Revelation 20:10
10. Second death--forever..............Revelation 20:14
11. Elements melt, earth and works are burned up.......2Peter Chapter 3

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.

Thanks for the long list of verses that teach the lost will exist forever.

 

[FreeGrace]

And chessman .

There are two major issues with the lake of fire resulting in destruction of the form of ceasing to exist (there is another depending on one's view of what happens to the dead between now and then). Firstly, seeing as how all men are made in God's image, it is actually morally greater that God not annihilate his creatures and let them live apart from Him. Secondly, annihilation isn't punishment. Jesus gave very severe warnings about the final destination of unbelievers. But ceasing to exist not only isn't punishment, it isn't even remotely in line with the severity of Jesus's warnings about Hell. Punishment is only punishment if one is consciously aware.

Exactly!!!

 

[chessman]

Jesus gave very severe warnings about the final destination of unbelievers.

Yes He did. I take His warning to the disciples about being thrown into Hell very seriously. Not figuratively at all. It’s expressly stated to fear the destruction of the body and soul in Hell in Matt 10:28.

But ceasing to exist not only isn't punishment, it isn't even remotely in line with the severity of Jesus's warnings about Hell.

Then just say destruction of the body and soul in Hell and leave out all the other terms.

Punishment is only punishment if one is consciously aware.

They will be made aware that their judgment is to be cast into Hell where God is able to destroy both their bodies and souls, no doubt. Just as there is no doubt that the destruction of the body and soul is fearful.

Punishment (a noun is used, not a verb, for a reason) is the result of being punished (a verb).
Punishment could be ECT or the destruction (also a noun which is the result of destroying) of both the body and soul in Hell. Your point isn’t accurate.

 

[Justicewolf]

Where's the scripture that says punishment in Hell is not eternal and everlasting?

 

[Justicewolf]

Did John the Revelator misunderstand God's message?
Revelation 20:10
And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

2 Thessalonians 1:5-9
5 This is evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are also suffering— 6 since indeed God considers it just to repay with affliction those who afflict you, 7 and to grant relief to you who are afflicted as well as to us, when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels 8 in flaming fire, inflicting vengeance on those who do not know God and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,


Verse 9 "eternal destruction"

• Eternal =αἰώνιος (aiōnios) Strong: G166 ____GK: G173 indeterminate as to duration, eternal, everlasting_________
• Destruction = λεθρος (olethros)Strong: G3639GK: G3897perdition, destruction, 1 Corinthians 5:5, 1 Thess. 5:3; 2 Thess. 1:9; 1 Tim. 6:9

 

[Free]

Yes He did. I take His warning to the disciples about being thrown into Hell very seriously. Not figuratively at all. It’s expressly stated to fear the destruction of the body and soul in Hell in Matt 10:28.

Again, it doesn't state that will be the case, only that God is so powerful he is able to.

But ceasing to exist not only isn't punishment, it isn't even remotely in line with the severity of Jesus's warnings about Hell.

Then just say destruction of the body and soul in Hell and leave out all the other terms.

I'm not sure how this addresses my point.

They will be made aware that their judgment is to be cast into Hell where God is able to destroy both their bodies and souls, no doubt.

This, of course, is not at all what I meant. Being aware that one is going to be punished is irrelevant. The whole point of punishment is to be aware of the punishment as it is occurring.

Just as there is no doubt that the destruction of the body and soul is fearful.

Not at all. Ceasing to exist is as though the person never existed in the first place. ​

Punishment (a noun is used, not a verb, for a reason) is the result of being punished (a verb).
Punishment could be ECT or the destruction (also a noun which is the result of destroying) of both the body and soul in Hell. Your point isn’t accurate.

Punishment is ": the act of punishing " https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment

Punishment could be ECT (depending on what one means by "T") or EC during and after T (biblical view; depends somewhat on what one means by "T").

A few points then:

1. Seeing as how all men are made in God's image, it is actually morally greater that God not annihilate his creatures and let them live apart from Him.
2. Ceasing to exist not only isn't punishment, it isn't even remotely in line with the severity of Jesus's warnings about Hell. Punishment is only punishment if one is consciously aware.
3. Hades, the grave, gets emptied and thrown into Hell. It makes no sense for God to resurrect people only to pronounce judgement and then destroy them. Why not just throw the full grave into Hell without all the needless drama?

 

[chessman]

Again, it doesn't state that will be the case, only that God is so powerful he is able to.

Since God will raise the lost to stand in front of Him, judge them and throw them in Hell. And all He told the disciples IS to be feared, there’s zero context that indicates He will not.

I'm not sure how this addresses my point.

I wouldn’t use the phrase ‘cease to exist’ if it bothers you. Use the Biblical language of destruction of both the body and soul in Hell.

This, of course, is not at all what I meant. Being aware that one is going to be punished is irrelevant. The whole point of punishment is to be aware of the punishment as it is occurring.

There’s more than one point within the Texts.

Not at all. Ceasing to exist is as though the person never existed in the first place.

Really???
So it’s ‘as though’ Sodom never existed to you? Not to me.

It makes no sense for God to resurrect people only to pronounce judgement and then destroy them.

Yes it does. They must stand before their maker and judge.

Why not just throw the full grave into Hell without all the needless drama?

Drama??? It’s called Judgment and God’s full wrath. I wouldn’t characterize it as needles drama.

Punishment is ": the act of punishing " https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/punishment

Like I said. It’s a noun resulting from the action verb.

 

[FreeGrace]

I wouldn’t use the phrase ‘cease to exist’ if it bothers you. Use the Biblical language of destruction of both the body and soul in Hell.

But what does that mean, specifically? We need to be specific. You have already noted that "destruction" means total destruction to you. Literally. And you have used S&G as examples of cities that were totally destroyed. Which means they have ceased to exist.

iow, they exist no more.

So whether one "wouldn't use the phrase" 'cease to exist', or not, that's what total destruction actually means.

 

[for_his_glory]

They cease to exist in the eyes of God as He is the judge and jury that finds them guilty. Their names are not found written in the Lambs Book of Life and their destruction which means they have no chance of eternal life with the Father will then be cast into the lake of fire as being their eternal reward for unrighteousness.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

I have often wondered about the lake of fire and what it represents.
In church history it has been eternal torture, burning those who are sinners for their sin.

I have come to think this is not supported in scripture. Torture is only mentioned in two
places the rich man and lazerus Luke 16:23 and the beast who is tortured forever. Rev 20:10

Mortal man lives a short time, yet people feel justified to condemn humans to eternal
suffering because of the failure to grasp life while on earth.

Jesus says this
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matt 10:28

Is the lake of fire in the end the ultimate resolution for sinners who refuse to be healed?
The premise is man born separate from God, is a mess of motivations, focus, morals,
desires, which are all under their control. Through life a slow battle emerges of the
soul striving to prove it has value and can succeed. All the while sin is distorting and
eating away at the very fabric of the life they lead, to finally leave a husk which is no value
to anyone but be burnt up in the lake of fire.

To be born again, is to gain real life, eternal life, a beginning of something eternal that
brings everything together in the love Christ puts within us.

So sin though destructive, causing harm, is self destructive and indicates the futility of
life without the Lord, and how the desires of the flesh are just illusions, passions of the
moment, cynical grasping at rays of the sun, while denying its source.

So to torture people for eternity for this does not make sense. Now in truth the Lord will
do what the Lord will do, but we are given the word to discern what is right and just and
to know His will for fallen man.

Now those who have been hurt, who cannot forgive, who are bitter and twisted will want
revenge, to see those who caused them pain suffer terribly. But this is not Gods heart,
or anything He expresses, rather the opposite. He shows up the foolishness of mans mind
and brings in His wisdom of the cross, love sacrificing itself that people might see what love
is and gain life, abandoning the struggle of significance to gain the ultimate significance in
the Lord.

I therefore see more substance to the lake of fire being what we know fire to be, the destruction
of the thing that is thrown into it. I am seeking to grow and discern more clearly, and would
not want to dishonour my King, so value any insights you might wish to bring

If you're a Bible believing Christian who believes everything great about our salvation, how is it that what the Bible says about those who are not saved is easily cast off?

You said this. "yet people feel justified to condemn humans to eternal suffering because of the failure to grasp life while on earth."

That's not true. People don't condemn humans to eternal suffering because those people failed to grasp life while on earth.
Those who preferred to live in the worldly skin of their life with all its appetites rather than seek Christ condemned themselves to eternal suffering in Hell. Because they had the choice and they made theirs.

 

[chessman]

So whether one "wouldn't use the phrase" 'cease to exist', or not, that's what total destruction actually means.

Since the Bible doesn’t say they pay a penalty where they ‘cease to exist’ in Hell OR that they “exist” in Hell but rather to fear their penalty in Hell, which is eternal destruction (where God is able to destroy both soul and body), I go with what the Bible teaches.

who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:9&version=DLNT

But I will show you Whom you should fear— fear the One having the authority to throw into Gehenna after the killing. Yes, I say to you, fear this One.​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=DLNT

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=DLNT

 

[FreeGrace]

Since the Bible doesn’t say they pay a penalty where they ‘cease to exist’ in Hell OR that they “exist” in Hell but rather to fear their penalty in Hell, which is eternal destruction (where God is able to destroy both soul and body), I go with what the Bible teaches.

The point has been made repeatedly that fearing what God is ABLE to do isn't the same as saying what God WILL do.

And the point has been made repeatedly that the lake of fire is a place of eternal suffering.

And the point has been made repeatedly that if a soul ceases to exist, there is nothing left for which to suffer for eternity.

So, it would appear that your view is that after physical death, unbelievers will suffer only until the Great White Throne judgment, at which point they will be cast into the lake of fire, and then no longer exist. Is this your view? I can't imagine any other view, given what you've posted to this point.

 

[PeterJens]

If you're a Bible believing Christian who believes everything great about our salvation, how is it that what the Bible says about those who are not saved is easily cast off?

You said this. "yet people feel justified to condemn humans to eternal suffering because of the failure to grasp life while on earth."

That's not true. People don't condemn humans to eternal suffering because those people failed to grasp life while on earth.
Those who preferred to live in the worldly skin of their life with all its appetites rather than seek Christ condemned themselves to eternal suffering in Hell. Because they had the choice and they made theirs.

You are projecting a simple point here. They chose. The point about lostness is we are incapable of
choosing, our whole being rebels against the idea of someone else will force us to do something.
We grow up with the idea we want to be of worth, acheive something and not be a nothing.
You are suggesting lostness is a choice rather than a state.

Jesus specifically said to the disciples He chose them, not they Him.
You could phrase it that Jesus chooses us all, but few decide to follow this up.

I can testify though I searched in Jesus for life, it was He who called and opened up the doors at
each step. Scripture appears to project an innocence in our rebellion.
But I would suggest you do not accept this. God bless you.

 

[childeye]

I don't believe that the source of Love and worship of God is based upon the fear of punishment. I believe that the source of Love/empathy is God Himself and that this belief/faith manifests in a true worship of God. So the punishment of hell and even hell it's self is probably based upon a refusal to accept this incorruptible Image of God. Hence the fire is never quenched and the worm never dies. Isaiah 66:24.

 

[FreeGrace]

You are projecting a simple point here. They chose. The point about lostness is we are incapable of choosing, our whole being rebels against the idea of someone else will force us to do something.

Not true. Paul's answer to the jailer demonstrates the choice we have.

The jailer wanted to know how to be saved. Paul told him what he must do. He must believe. That is a choice.

You are suggesting lostness is a choice rather than a state.

That was never the suggestion. We are born lost. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Luke 19:10

Jesus specifically said to the disciples He chose them, not they Him.

He chose them, for service, including Judas. John 6:70 btw, they actually had to make the choice to follow Him. He sure didn't force any of them to follow Him.

 

[PeterJens]

Not true. Paul's answer to the jailer demonstrates the choice we have.

The jailer wanted to know how to be saved. Paul told him what he must do. He must believe. That is a choice.


That was never the suggestion. We are born lost. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. Luke 19:10


He chose them, for service, including Judas. John 6:70 btw, they actually had to make the choice to follow Him. He sure didn't force any of them to follow Him.

My friend. Paul was not a stranger, a man in the street who the jailer went up to asking
he had desired to know God and Paul might know an answer.
God had moved, demonstrated His power, and reinforced the words and position Paul
held. Now with this reality in front of the jailer, he asked what he needed to do next.
There were others in the prison, but this man reacted in this way.
Now these are obvious realities, yet you are choosing to ignore them in a testimony.
Why is that?
It is like a man turning up to your house, knocking on your door, showing you are car,
and then you asking what must I do? It is the man who moved and chose, who put things
in motion, and awaited the question.
Lostness is a real reality, which is what the pharisees had. They had scripture, history,
and here before them was a perfect man who preached love and Gods heart, yet they plotted
to kill Him. Now that is blindness, real, complete, blindness, locked in to sin and selfish greed
for power and wealth. Nothing changes, people do this as much today as anyone in the past.

 

[PeterJens]

And chessman .

There are two major issues with the lake of fire resulting in destruction of the form of ceasing to exist (there is another depending on one's view of what happens to the dead between now and then). Firstly, seeing as how all men are made in God's image, it is actually morally greater that God not annihilate his creatures and let them live apart from Him. Secondly, annihilation isn't punishment. Jesus gave very severe warnings about the final destination of unbelievers. But ceasing to exist not only isn't punishment, it isn't even remotely in line with the severity of Jesus's warnings about Hell. Punishment is only punishment if one is consciously aware.

I like your position. It is defining what punishment is, and what life is and justice, guilt etc. Now I cannot
go this far, but I can read what Jesus said and the apostles wrote.
There is punishment, with a purpose, but there are also impossible compromises.
At what age does a child become responsible for sin. When does the holiness given by a believer to their
child come to an end, and responsibility to the person becomes real.
I have always liked the idea if all people are actually eternal, they will be separate from God but tortured
by their position. But lets get real, hell will hold most people, and with the Lord are just a few. So in this model the
Lord is sustaining into eternity most of human kind to fulfil some desire to punish them.

But the biggest punishment is literally to meet the Lord and then to know you got it wrong.
And severe warning are there because the glory of God is so great, to miss this, is the hardest thing to bare.

Now as a mere mortal, love has taught me to trust the Lord, and His judgement, and listen carefully to His
eternal words. We get those words so wrong so easily. I have met believers who regard the sermon on the
mount as condemnation rather than freedom, as slavery rather than the wisdom of the King.
Now if some can get this so wrong, on some of the first building blocks, I doubt the ideas about hell have
been grasped correctly. The hell and damnation preaching, has always struck me as overly emphasise,
but rather that it is love and the power of slavery to righteousness because this is the Kingdom is where
God actually is.

 

[FreeGrace]

My friend. Paul was not a stranger, a man in the street who the jailer went up to asking he had desired to know God and Paul might know an answer.
God had moved, demonstrated His power, and reinforced the words and position Paul
held. Now with this reality in front of the jailer, he asked what he needed to do next.

Let's stop here. Yes, the jailer needed to know "what he needed to do next". That means CHOICE. Thanks for agreeing with me.

There were others in the prison, but this man reacted in this way.
Now these are obvious realities, yet you are choosing to ignore them in a testimony.

You've chosen to pass a false judgment on what I have chosen to do.

Why is that?

That's my question to you for choosing to pass a false judgment on my choice.

All the prisoners made a choice. But the Bible doesn't give us any details on how any of the rest of the prisoners reacted to Paul's message to the jailer. It's quite possible that one or some chose to believe what Paul said. We have no idea.

So, please put aside the temptation to pass false judgment on others when you don't have all the facts.

It is like a man turning up to your house, knocking on your door, showing you are car,
and then you asking what must I do? It is the man who moved and chose, who put things
in motion, and awaited the question.

This is totally irrelevant to Paul's situation in the jail.

Lostness is a real reality, which is what the pharisees had.

As I said before, all of humanity is born in lostness. Which is why Jesus came to earth; to seek and save the LOST. Luke 19:10

Or, is your position that only "the elect" are lost, which the Lord came to save?

They had scripture, history, and here before them was a perfect man who preached love and Gods heart, yet they plotted
to kill Him. Now that is blindness, real, complete, blindness, locked in to sin and selfish greed
for power and wealth.

You're kidding, right? The Bible tells us exactly how they reacted to Jesus and His miracles and message:
Acts 14:2 - But the Jews who refused to believe stirred up the other Gentiles and poisoned their minds against the brothers.
Acts 19:9 - But some of them became obstinate; they refused to believe and publicly maligned the Way. So Paul left them. He took the disciples with him and had discussions daily in the lecture hall of Tyrannus.

I'm pretty sure you're aware of the fact that to refuse something is a choice made.

Nothing changes, people do this as much today as anyone in the past.

Sure. We all made decisions (choices).

Again, thanks for agreeing with me.

 

[FreeGrace]

At what age does a child become responsible for sin.

The Bible tells us.

Isa 7:15-16
15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right,
16 for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.

That's when. Obviously, it will be different for different people. There is no specific age. It's about understanding the difference between right and wrong.

I'm fully aware that these verses are about Jesus, but they are in regard to His humanity, not His Deity.