The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[FreeGrace]

Where do you get the 2nd death is separation?

My point is that "death" itself is about separation. James said this in regard what physical death means:
James 2:26 - As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

iow, when the immaterial soul leaves the body, the person is pronounced 'dead'.

So physical death is separation of soul from body. In the same manner, spiritual death is separation from God.

Humanity is born spiritually dead, separated from God. That's why humanity needs to be born again, in order to have relationship with God.

Can you please explain to me the purpose of torture in hell?

Are you speaking about Gehenna or the lake of fire?

I don't find the word 'torture' in relation to either Gehenna or the lake of fire. What verse led to your question?

When God created you,you became God's child

Do you reject John 1:12 and Gal 3:36 then?

Consider Eccl 12:7 - nd the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

iow, God owns all souls, because God creates them. But this verse says nothing about being a child of God on the basis of His creating the soul.

When I speak of children of God, I am being specific about being His children on the basis of faith in Christ, not by being created by God.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said:
"The lake of fire, which is an eternal existence, is also called the "second death". This means eternal separation from God."

No typo. The Bible is clear that the lake of fire is an eternal place of existence. Those who will spend eternity there will be spiritually dead, but very much aware of their surroundings."

Why,whats the purpose of eternal torture?The Word teaches no such thing.

I never said anything about torture.

Where does the Word teach that the purpose of the lake of fire is for torture?

In fact, the lake of fire is the ONLY PLACE available for unbelievers, because they don't have God's life, which is eternal life, which is recieved by faith in Christ.

 

[FreeGrace]

I can't even imagine a dog tortured forever,and are we not more important than a dog?Imo eternal torture is a warped thinking...

Who is claiming that the lake of fire is torture?

 

[FreeGrace]

No passage of the Bible says that the lost eternally exist in the Lake of Fire. What the Bible does say, is that it’s a place prepared for a different kind of creatures (the Devil and his demons, not humans).

Huh? You've already agreed that lost souls go to the lake of fire?

In post #269 I said:
"The lake of fire is where lost souls go for eternity."

And you responded to that with:
"No doubt."

 

[chessman]

I really don't understand how this question relates in any way to my comment.

Evidently you understand pretty well

Of course God IS eternal. 1 John 5:20 -

That’s my point. We can understand the meaning of something being eternal (God in this case or the Lake of Fire for that matter) whether the lost are destroyed (both body and soul) in the Lake of Fire or not.

These 6 verses all are about the second death, or the lake of fire.

I agree. Although you’ve conveniently left out several that also are about the second death (the final punishment/penalty for the lost) in Hell. Including the one you claim is figurative. Here’s just three:

who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:9&version=DLNT

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=DLNT

How about stepping through Matt 10:28 and 2 Thess 1:9 and point out exactly where either one starts to become figurative (and why).

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body ​

I say the above is entirely literal because He’s speaking to literal disciples who are literally facing being killed bodily.

but not being able to kill the soul.​

I say the above is similarly entirely literal because men are literally not able to kill the soul.

But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

I say the above is entirely literal because God is literally able to destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna. And furthermore, allowing for Luke’s record of their understanding of Jesus’ statement above, He will literally do just that:

But I will show you Whom you should fear— fear the One having the authority to throw into Gehenna after the killing. Yes, I say to you, fear this One.​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=DLNT

Being thrown into Gehenna after the killing IS to destroy both body and soul, from these two accounts.

 

[chessman]

Huh? You've already agreed that lost souls go to the lake of fire?

Of course they WILL go to (be thrown into) the Lake of Fire. Which is their 2nd Death (one this time that's less bearable than the 1st).

My view is that I believe that's where God will literally destroy their souls there because He's literally able to). Their punishment is eternal destruction (2 Thess 1:9), quite literally.

Is your view that you believe that's where God will not destroy their souls there?

If you think God will literally throw the lost into the Lake of Fire, I see zero evidence that will not be their eternal destruction of both the body and the soul.

And simply stating that a word can be used figuratively is no evidence at all. All words can be used figuratively.

Not to long ago I had to ask one of my daughters what people meant when they said "snap".
Even further back I had to ask what people meant when they said "word". Now I know. Word! Snap!

 

[chessman]

Justicewolf said: ↑
Jude 1:7
Just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Yes. the residents of S&G exist in hell, awaiting the Great White Throne judgment of Rev 20 and being cast into the lake of fire. For eternity.

I accordance with the Texts, the former residents have not received their final judgment and are awaiting it. But that's not an answer to the question I asked. I asked about the cites themselves. Do they (the cites) still exist or have they been literally destroyed?

 

[Justicewolf]

No passage of the Bible says that the lost eternally exist in the Lake of Fire. What the Bible does say, is that it’s a place prepared for a different kind of creatures (the Devil and his demons, not humans).

Are you going to answer my question about the passage you posted in reply that supposedly describes the Lake of Fire as eternal existence of the lost?

There is no supposedly about it. The Bible says it and twisting the scriptures doesn't change the facts of the truth in the word as delivered to the world by The Word.

 

[Justicewolf]

No passage of the Bible says that the lost eternally exist in the Lake of Fire. What the Bible does say, is that it’s a place prepared for a different kind of creatures (the Devil and his demons, not humans).

Are you going to answer my question about the passage you posted in reply that supposedly describes the Lake of Fire as eternal existence of the lost?

Matthew 25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."

Mark 9:43, "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."

Revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever."

 

[chessman]

twisting the scriptures doesn't change the facts of the truth in the word as delivered to the world by The Word.

Correct.

Matthew 25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."

See , you just cannot quote an actual Bible verse that says ‘The lost shall go away into an everlasting existence of torment’. So one is picked that says something else.

Mark 9:43, "And if your hand makes you sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched."

See, you just cannot quote an actual Bible verse that says ‘The lost shall go away into an everlasting life of torment that cannot be quenched’. So one is picked that says something else. God’s full wrath consist of an eternal fire. God’s fire is consuming. Just look at the examples of Sodom and Gomorrah’s consumption for an example.

Revelation 14:11, "And the smoke of their torment ascends up forever and ever."

See, you just cannot quote an actual Bible verse that says ‘The lost shall go away into an everlasting life of torment’. So one is picked that says something else. It’s not my view that the lost live in the smoke rising from the Earth in the presence of the Lamb and holy angels. Is it yours?

 

[FreeGrace]

That’s my point. We can understand the meaning of something being eternal (God in this case or the Lake of Fire for that matter) whether the lost are destroyed (both body and soul) in the Lake of Fire or not.

The point remains: if one's soul ceases to exist, there is no eternity to experience.

I agree. Although you’ve conveniently left out several that also are about the second death (the final punishment/penalty for the lost) in Hell. Including the one you claim is figurative. Here’s just three:

who will pay the penalty: eternal destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His strength,​

2 Thessalonians 1:9 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Thessalonians 1:9&version=DLNT

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body but not being able to kill the soul. But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

Matthew 10:28 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Matthew 10:28&version=DLNT

How about stepping through Matt 10:28 and 2 Thess 1:9 and point out exactly where either one starts to become figurative (and why).

And do not be fearing anything from the ones killing the body ​

I say the above is entirely literal because He’s speaking to literal disciples who are literally facing being killed bodily.

but not being able to kill the soul.​

I say the above is similarly entirely literal because men are literally not able to kill the soul.

But be fearing instead the One being able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

I do not believe that anyone's soul will cease to exist. And Gehenna isn't the eternal lake of fire. It's a holding cell before the Great White Throne Judgment.

I say the above is entirely literal because God is literally able to destroy both the soul and body in Gehenna. And furthermore, allowing for Luke’s record of their understanding of Jesus’ statement above, He will literally do just that:

But I will show you Whom you should fear— fear the One having the authority to throw into Gehenna after the killing. Yes, I say to you, fear this One.​

Luke 12:5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Luke 12:5&version=DLNT

Being thrown into Gehenna after the killing IS to destroy both body and soul, from these two accounts.

Then your view is that of the "annihilationists", who believe that the soul will cease to exist.

If that were true, then what's to fear? Ceasing to exist means no experience of any kind of suffering.

 

[FreeGrace]

Of course they WILL go to (be thrown into) the Lake of Fire. Which is their 2nd Death (one this time that's less bearable than the 1st).

If a soul ceases to exist, there is no concept of being either less or more bearable.

My view is that I believe that's where God will literally destroy their souls there because He's literally able to). Their punishment is eternal destruction (2 Thess 1:9), quite literally.

"eternal" destruction is meaningless of one ceases to exist.

Is your view that you believe that's where God will not destroy their souls there?

My view is informed by Rev 20:10 and 15. Those who are thrown into the lake of fire will suffer for ever and ever, just as v.10 plainly says.

If you think God will literally throw the lost into the Lake of Fire, I see zero evidence that will not be their eternal destruction of both the body and the soul.

It will be their final and eternal separation from God. Which is what the second death is.

 

[FreeGrace]

I accordance with the Texts, the former residents have not received their final judgment and are awaiting it.

The final judgment is described in Rev 20:11-15, which will be the lake of fire. And v.10 tells us that it is a place of suffering for ever and ever. (eternal)

But that's not an answer to the question I asked. I asked about the cites themselves. Do they (the cites) still exist or have they been literally destroyed?

They cease to exist.

There is no reason to ignore Rev 20:10-15 and realize that there will be an eternal existence in the lake of fire for everyone who never received the gift of eternal life.

 

[FreeGrace]

Matthew 25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."

Great verse.

How can "everlasting punishment" be true if one ceases to exist? There is no punishment if all consciousness and existence ceases.

Which is what atheists believe about what happens after physical death.

 

[Justicewolf]

What the Bible Says About Hell
posted with permission



Key Facts About Eternity
(1) Everyone will exist eternally either in heaven or hell (Daniel 12:2,3; Matthew 25:46; John 5:28; Revelation 20:14,15).

(2) Everyone has only one life in which to determine their destiny (Hebrews 9:27).

(3) Heaven or hell is determined by whether a person believes (puts their trust) in Christ alone to save them (John 3:16, 36, etc.).

[paste:font size="4"]Matthew 25:41; Revelation 20:10).

(2) Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8).

(3) Hell is conscious torment.

• Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
• Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
• Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”

(4) Hell is eternal and irreversible.

• Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
• Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
• Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire”

[paste:font size="4"]Hebrews 9:27).

(2) Universalism – All are eternally saved.

Answer: It denies the truth of salvation through Christ which means that a person decides to either trust in Christ or else he/she rejects Christ and goes to hell (John 3:16;3:36).

(3) Annihilationism – Hell means a person dies like an animal – ceases to exist.

Answer: It denies the resurrection of the unsaved (John 5:28, etc. – see above). It denies conscious torment (see above).

[paste:font size="4"]Romans 2:11).

• God has provided the way of salvation to all (John 3:16,17; 2 Corinthians 5:14,15; 1 Timothy 2:6; 4:10; Titus 2:11; 2 Peter 3:9).
• Even those who haven’t heard of Christ are accountable for God’s revelation in nature (Romans 1:20). God will seek those who seek Him (Matthew 7:7; Luke 19:10).
• Therefore God doesn’t send people to hell, they choose it (Romans 1:18,21,25).

(2) Hell is too severe a punishment for man’s sin.

Response: God is holy-perfect (1 Peter 1:14,15).

• Sin is willful opposition to God our creator (Romans 1:18-32).
• Our sin does merit hell (Romans 1:32; 2:2,5,6).
• What is unfair and amazing is that Christ died for our sin and freely offers salvation to all (Romans 2:4; 3:22-24; 4:7,8; 5:8,9).

[paste:font size="4"]Luke 10:15; 16:23, etc.)

• Gehenna - A Greek term (borrowed from a literal burning dump near Jerusalem) that alwaysrefers to hell – a place of torment (Matthew 5:30; 23:33)

• “Lake of fire”- the final abode of unbelievers after they are resurrected (Revelation 20:14,15)

• “Abraham’s bosom” - (Luke 16:22) a place of eternal comfort

• “Paradise” - (Luke 23:43) a place of eternal comfort

• “With the Lord” - a key phrase describes where church age believers are after death (Philippians 1:23; 1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Corinthians 5:8)

• “New heavens and earth” – where believers will be after they are resurrected (Revelation 20:4-6; 21:1-4)

[paste:font size="4"]Hell

 

[FreeGrace]

Justicewolf said: ↑
Matthew 25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."

See , you just cannot quote an actual Bible verse that says ‘The lost shall go away into an everlasting existence of torment’. So one is picked that says something else.

Please explain the difference between "everlasting punishment" of Matt 24:46 and "everlating existence of torment" (your words).

I see no difference. I see the exact same thing. So, what's the difference, materially?

See, you just cannot quote an actual Bible verse that says ‘The lost shall go away into an everlasting life of torment that cannot be quenched’.

Please don't copy the tactic of Arminians and Calvinists who seem to think if there are no verses that say EXACTLY how they phrase something, it cannot be true.

So one is picked that says something else. God’s full wrath consist of an eternal fire. God’s fire is consuming. Just look at the examples of Sodom and Gomorrah’s consumption for an example.

OK, maybe we need a different tack. When a soul is cast into the eternal lake of fire, how long does the Bible indicate that a soul will cease to exist?

What I'm asking is: for a soul to cease to exist, how long does it take to reach that state?

See, you just cannot quote an actual Bible verse that says ‘The lost shall go away into an everlasting life of torment’.

Your exact wording isn't required. Matt 25:46 gives us the SAME message.

So one is picked that says something else.

Different words that mean the SAME THING.

 

[for_his_glory]

Why,whats the purpose of eternal torture?The Word teaches no such thing.

I will post this again as we either believe the scriptures or our own carnal understanding.

The Apostle John says that the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever; and they shall have no rest day and night; and they shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever (Revelation 14:11; 19:3; 20:10). Jesus said that the lake of fire is a furnace of fire in Matthew 13:41, 42 and outer darkness in Matthew 22:13.

The fact that the lake of fire is eternal is plain from the following verses where it is described as:
1. Everlasting fire.......................Matthew 25:41
2. Everlasting punishment...........Matthew 25:46
3. Eternal damnation..................Mark 3:29
4. Everlasting destruction.......... II Thessalonians 1:9
5. Everlasting contempt..............Daniel 12:2
6. Torment forever and ever.......Revelation 14:9-11
7. Blackness of darkness forever.....Jude 13
8. Vengeance of eternal life............Jude 7
9. Lake of fire--forever and ever......Revelation 20:10
10. Second death--forever..............Revelation 20:14
11. Elements melt, earth and works are burned up.......2Peter Chapter 3

God gives us a description as in fire and brimstone which can be used literal as in Sodom and Gomorrah burned to ashes and as a metaphor for torment, suffering, punishment or as Matthew 8:12 describes it as outer darkness. The New Testament description is a bottomless pit (abyss) (Revelation 20:3), a lake (Revelation 20:14), darkness (Matthew 25:30), death (Revelation 2:11), destruction (2 Thessalonians 1:9), everlasting torment (Revelation 20:10), a place of wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), and a place of gradated punishment (Matthew 11:20-24; Luke 12:47-48; Revelation 20:12-13), everlasting fire Matthew 25:41, everlasting punishment, Matthew 25:46, lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Jude 1:7 clearly states an example of eternal fire. This is the same Greek word that is used for everlasting fire and everlasting punishment as used in Matthew 18:8 and Matthew 25:41,46 (Notice: The place, as no real name is given, where the unsaved go is everlasting punishment, and not everlasting punishing. The punishment is eternal in its results, not in its duration. Unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be quenched or put out until everything in its path is burned up.

 

[Justicewolf]

Perhaps it is a denominational allegiance that causes the conflict? Is there a denominational teaching that claims Hell's suffering is not eternal?

 

[Justicewolf]

I really wish there was the "Like" option in this section. But since there is not,

Justicewolf said: ↑
Matthew 25:46, Jesus said, "These shall go away into everlasting punishment but the righteous into eternal life."

Please explain the difference between "everlasting punishment" of Matt 24:46 and "everlating existence of torment" (your words).

I see no difference. I see the exact same thing. So, what's the difference, materially?


Please don't copy the tactic of Arminians and Calvinists who seem to think if there are no verses that say EXACTLY how they phrase something, it cannot be true.


OK, maybe we need a different tack. When a soul is cast into the eternal lake of fire, how long does the Bible indicate that a soul will cease to exist?

What I'm asking is: for a soul to cease to exist, how long does it take to reach that state?


Your exact wording isn't required. Matt 25:46 gives us the SAME message.


Different words that mean the SAME THING.

 

[Free]

That's not true!!! Did not God create us all,which made us at that time His children,even satan was His child

God created all of us but that is not the criterion that the Bible gives for being a child of God.

Who were these "sons of God" [the stars that sang], and when did these sons of God sing for Joy? We are talking about the angels here, that sang before the establishment of this earth age of the flesh. All souls were there and Satan also was there with all of them. Some how the people of this earth age are trying to forget Satan and the role that he played at the rebellion in that first earth age.

Ah. "First earth age." I'll just leave that alone as that is another discussion entirely.

We see that Satan was not in the conversation with Job and his friends at this time. They all have overlooked the overall plan of God. However had Job known the plan of God, where would he have been then, when the foundations of this earth were laid and the angels were rejoicing? Of course He would have been there with the rest of them, where we all were. You see, we the elect of God were chosen before the foundations of this earth were laid, and so was Job.


Ephesians 1:4 "According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world [age], that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:"


Ephesians 1:5 "Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children of Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,"

Thank you for supporting what I was saying, despite you saying it wasn't true. In addition:

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (ESV)

Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, (ESV)

There is no becoming a child of God apart from believing and trusting in Jesus.