The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[Papyrus_dust]

Randy↑
Even "if" God has the ability to destroy spirit it doesn't appear that He does so as no rest night and day and tormented suggest awareness of suffering. (everlasting)

AMEN!

Times two!

You know it came to me after I posted those videos above. Here we all are as Christians debating issues among the sheep in the sheepfold. And yet isn't it a responsibility to consider that non-Christians could be peeping in to see what Christian is all about? Don't we then owe it to even one person doing that to lead them toward the truth of God in his word so that they may find Christ? We are responsible I think to battle that which came out of , as taylor put it, hell breaking loose in the church , with the truth of that which a sacred and holy Son gave his life for. That it stand eternal as the word of God and the promise open to all who will receive the grace of God who sent him here with that message.

Just throwing that out there.

 

[chessman]

My point was that the 2 verses are not in the same context. One is clearly about physical death.

If Psalm 37 were about the physical death of the wicked, you would have a good point. If Psalm 37 is “clearly about physical death” of the wicked and you showed as much from the context, you would have made an excellent point. As it stands, however, it seems you’ve not even read it or the few verses I posted from it. Clearly it’s contrasting the final Justice God will administer to the wicked as opposed to how they seem to succeed physically here/now:

Be quiet before Yahweh and wait for him. Do not fret about one who succeeds in his way, about a man making plots. The Lord laughs at him, for he sees that his day is coming. The wicked have drawn the sword and have bent their bow to throw down the poor and the needy, to kill those upright in their way. Their sword will enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken. The little belonging to the righteous is better than the wealth of many wicked. For the arms of the wicked shall be broken, but Yahweh supports the righteous. Yahweh knows the days of the blameless, and their inheritance will be forever. They will not be put to shame in distressing times, and in the days of famine they will be satisfied. But the wicked will perish, and the enemies of Yahweh will be like the splendor of the pastures. They vanish; in smoke they vanish. Turn aside from evil and do good and so abide forever. For Yahweh loves justice and will not forsake his faithful ones. They are protected forever. But the children of the wicked will be cut off. The righteous will possess the land and abide in it forever. The wicked watches for the righteous and seeks to kill him. Yahweh will not abandon him into his hand, and he will not let him be condemned when he is judged. Wait for Yahweh and keep his way, and he will exalt you to possess the land. When the wicked are cut off, you will see it. Observe the blameless and look at the upright, for there is a future for a man of peace. But transgressors shall be destroyed altogether. The future of the wicked shall be cut off. And the salvation of the righteous is from Yahweh, their refuge in the time of trouble. And Yahweh helps them and he rescues them. He rescues them from the wicked and saves them, because they take refuge in him.​

Psalm 37:7,13-20,27-29,32-34,37-40 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:7,13-20,27-29,32-34,37-40&version=LEB

The wicked's final punishment is clearly stated in Rev 20:10-15. The smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever.

If I were arguing that the smoke of their torment did not go up forever, you would have a good point. But as exampled by the smoke of Sodom’s destruction rising forever, we know that Sodom itself does not survive or live on forever. It was destroyed forever.

Please explain (because none has yet been provied) how one who has ceased to exist can be tormented forever and ever.

There is no verse that says that lost humans are tormented forever.

Existing separated from God in the lake of fire is spiritual death, and such existence will be forever and ever.

From what Scripture do you get a definition of ‘spiritual death’?

 

[FreeGrace]

If Psalm 37 were about the physical death of the wicked, you would have a good point.

No one has shown from exegesis the it is about eternal death or destruction.

If Psalm 37 is “clearly about physical death” of the wicked and you showed as much from the context, you would have made an excellent point. As it stands, however, it seems you’ve not even read it or the few verses I posted from it. Clearly it’s contrasting the final Justice God will administer to the wicked as opposed to how they seem to succeed physically here/now:

The error, I believe, is found in your words: "final justice God will administer".

I will highlight in red the words that I believe indicate physical death:

Be quiet before Yahweh and wait for him. Do not fret about one who succeeds in his way, about a man making plots. The Lord laughs at him, for he sees that his day is coming. The wicked have drawn the sword and have bent their bow to throw down the poor and the needy, to kill those upright in their way. Their sword will enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken. The little belonging to the righteous is better than the wealth of many wicked. For the arms of the wicked shall be broken, but Yahweh supports the righteous. Yahweh knows the days of the blameless, and their inheritance will be forever. They will not be put to shame in distressing times, and in the days of famine they will be satisfied. But the wicked will perish, and the enemies of Yahweh will be like the splendor of the pastures. They vanish; in smoke they vanish. Turn aside from evil and do good and so abide forever. For Yahweh loves justice and will not forsake his faithful ones. They are protected forever. But the children of the wicked will be cut off. The righteous will possess the land and abide in it forever. The wicked watches for the righteous and seeks to kill him. Yahweh will not abandon him into his hand, and he will not let him be condemned when he is judged. Wait for Yahweh and keep his way, and he will exalt you to possess the land. When the wicked are cut off, you will see it. Observe the blameless and look at the upright, for there is a future for a man of peace. But transgressors shall be destroyed altogether. The future of the wicked shall be cut off. And the salvation of the righteous is from Yahweh, their refuge in the time of trouble. And Yahweh helps them and he rescues them. He rescues them from the wicked and saves them, because they take refuge in him.

Psalm 37:7,13-20,27-29,32-34,37-40 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:7,13-20,27-29,32-34,37-40&version=LEB

The phrase "cut off" is used 3 times. It is a common phrase, 131 times, in the OT for physical death. Some times it's literal for cutting something, like foreskins. Other times it's clearly about capital punishment.

If I were arguing that the smoke of their torment did not go up forever, you would have a good point.

That's the problem. How can smoke "go up forever and ever" IF the person ceases to exist? You've still not addressed that chink in your view.

But as exampled by the smoke of Sodom’s destruction rising forever, we know that Sodom itself does not survive or live on forever. It was destroyed forever.

So you're just conflating 2 passages then.

There is no verse that says that lost humans are tormented forever.

Note: the dragon, beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, and will be tormented forever and ever, per Rev 20:10. Then, those who don't have eternal life are cast into the SAME lake of fire, per Rev 20:15.

From what Scripture do you get a definition of ‘spiritual death’?

Col 2:13 - When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Eph 2:1 - As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins

Neither verse makes any sense if understood as physical death. The only other option is spiritual death, which is the opposite of spiritual life, or being born of the Spirit, or regeneration.

 

[th1b.taylor]

It is sad. Very.
Does that abominable new thing that came about after Hell broke out have a name? A denominational identity perhaps?

I am short sighted and thought I had given you the names it is being spread under. The first, I believe was the band of New Covenant Churches followed with the one that requires a lot of caution because of their nam, the new or later day New Testament Christians. All of them have trashed the information the New Testament was built from. They completely ignore that the Bible John, Paul, James and Jesus taught from, the Jewish Bible known as the Old Testament, the veryfoundation of the Christian faith.

I'll be frank with you about where I stand. I am a Christian who is a friend of our LORD Jesus and I seek always, 24hrs/7 days a week to walk in His Word.

It is my position that Jesus is and was the God of the Old Testament (John1:1-3), just as He is the God of the New Testament. And every word of the Books, all of them, are the inspired, by Jesus/God for our Spiritual Education.


That includes the truth that the Bible is divided into two major sections and the composition of the division as easily, and I believe is best viewed as the first thirty-nine books are the inspired Word of God and the remaining twenty-seven are the only God inspired Life Application Commentaries, informing how to apply the teaching from the Bible, Jesus wrote, to our lives.

I am fussed with over this stand by many of my Ley Peers but Ihave not ever had a minister of the Faith to disagree and to try to change my outllook. I poray thishelps you nail downwhere the mudinthe asile of the Church iscoming from.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

I am short sighted and thought I had given you the names it is being spread under. The first, I believe was the band of New Covenant Churches followed with the one that requires a lot of caution because of their nam, the new or later day New Testament Christians. All of them have trashed the information the New Testament was built from. They completely ignore that the Bible John, Paul, James and Jesus taught from, the Jewish Bible known as the Old Testament, the veryfoundation of the Christian faith.

I'll be frank with you about where I stand. I am a Christian who is a friend of our LORD Jesus and I seek always, 24hrs/7 days a week to walk in His Word.

It is my position that Jesus is and was the God of the Old Testament (John1:1-3), just as He is the God of the New Testament. And every word of the Books, all of them, are the inspired, by Jesus/God for our Spiritual Education.


That includes the truth that the Bible is divided into two major sections and the composition of the division as easily, and I believe is best viewed as the first thirty-nine books are the inspired Word of God and the remaining twenty-seven are the only God inspired Life Application Commentaries, informing how to apply the teaching from the Bible, Jesus wrote, to our lives.

I am fussed with over this stand by many of my Ley Peers but Ihave not ever had a minister of the Faith to disagree and to try to change my outllook. I poray thishelps you nail downwhere the mudinthe asile of the Church iscoming from.

I've not heard of those two groups but I thank you for the warning about them. There really needs to be a like option here. In absence of that, And just because, . I'm with your frankness brother.

Do you think we're encountering new covenant and new testament church members here? That could be why the conflict arises ?

 

[chessman]

The phrase "cut off" is used 3 times.

Yes, within the context of Yahweh’s justice administered upon those who do evil.

Then he will bring forth your righteousness like the light, and your justice like the noonday.​

Psalm 37:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:6&version=LEB

So Justice for the wicked is their physical death, huh?

The wicked have drawn the sword and have bent their bow to throw down the poor and the needy, to kill those upright in their way. Their sword will enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

So when a murderer (killing the upright) escapes civil justice and dies wealthy, or dies a physical death in his old age, (prior to the resurrection and judgment) that's “justice like the noonday” to his victims???

The Lord laughs at him, for he sees that his day is coming.​

Psalm 37:13 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:13&version=LEB
So the day of the Lord’s Judgment is at a wicked man’s physical death???

For those blessed by him shall possess the land, but those cursed by him shall be cut off.​

Psalm 37:22 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:22&version=LEB

So is the above stanza about pre-Judgment land possessions or rather post-Judgment new kingdom???

So you're just conflating 2 passages then.

What you call conflating two passages, is called systematic Bible study and Theology.

I will highlight in red the words that I believe indicate physical death:

It’s obviously not asking the oppressed to wait patiently for justice as the wicked die physically, red and black considered.

Note: the dragon, beast and false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire, and will be tormented forever and ever, per Rev 20:10. Then, those who don't have eternal life are cast into the SAME lake of fire, per Rev 20:15.

Correct, they do NOT have eternal life because that’s their second death. Of not just the body this time but of the soul too. Now that’s ‘spiritual death’.

Col 2:13 - When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

Eph 2:1 - As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins

Neither verse makes any sense if understood as physical death

So your view is that the wicked go back to living in their sin and transgressions like before their 1st death???

 

[Papyrus_dust]

There is no verse that says that lost humans are tormented forever.

I wanted to address this especially.
Of the 807,361 words, 31,173 verses, 1,189 chapters in all the Bible, you're sure there's not one verse that says the damned in Hell are tormented forever?

 

[n2thelight]

Until Christ returns,we shall all die a physical death,if we are alive at His return,we are changed to our spiritual bodies.

 

[n2thelight]

What crime deserves everlasting torture?None.

You can put this on record ,I can't and won't serve a God like that,and if anyone tells me Im gonna go suffer forever for the above statement,I'll take that up with my Father!!!!

 

[th1b.taylor]

I've not heard of those two groups but I thank you for the warninhttps://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+7:21-23&version=NKJVg about them. There really needs to be a like option here. In absence of that, And just because, . I'm with your frankness brother.

Do you think we're encountering new covenant and new testament church members here? That could be why the conflict arises ?

I know they are teaching here., one sicked his pastor on me. I can't recall their screen name but that is a good thing about my disease, I have a problem with names.

Hey. it is snowing, just north of Houston, TX amd it is not January! Once in my 73 years it snowed so heavy it was on the roads and the people ere played Bumper Cars with their Automobiles. We do not do Snow.

 

[th1b.taylor]

What crime deserves everlasting torture?

Dying without accepting the Free Gift of Salvation. Denial of the Hply Spirit into your body until death takes you out, that is the ony unforgivable sin!

 

[n2thelight]

John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

Let's look at the word perish...

Strong's Greek Lexicon Search Results

622. apollumi ap-ol'-loo-mee from 575 and the base of 3639; to destroy fully (reflexively, to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively:--destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.

One cannot live and perish at the same time,period!!!!
Even if seperated from God, which some try to use,you are still alive

 

[th1b.taylor]

You are not using the entire Bible and it all fits together. Rev. 30:11-13 & 20:14

 

[n2thelight]

You are not using the entire Bible and it all fits together. Rev. 30:11-13 & 20:14

What's the first death?

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, within the context of Yahweh’s justice administered upon those who do evil.

Then he will bring forth your righteousness like the light, and your justice like the noonday.​

Psalm 37:6 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:6&version=LEB

So Justice for the wicked is their physical death, huh?

No. More like the "sin unto death", which is plainly stated in 1 Jn 5:16. Of course everyone will face physical death, save for a few humans; Elijah, Enoch, and the rapture generation. The point is the reason for their death.

The wicked have drawn the sword and have bent their bow to throw down the poor and the needy, to kill those upright in their way. Their sword will enter into their own heart, and their bows shall be broken.

The phrase "to kill those upright" is obviously about physical death.

So when a murderer (killing the upright) escapes civil justice and dies wealthy, or dies a physical death in his old age, (prior to the resurrection and judgment) that's “justice like the noonday” to his victims???

I see no reason to question God's decisions. His policies are clear from Scripture. It seems your question is a challenge to God's decisions.

Do you have EVERY detail of these murderers who die weathy? No.

What you call conflating two passages, is called systematic Bible study and Theology.

No it isn't.

 

[FreeGrace]

What crime deserves everlasting torture?None.

The error in this claim is to believe that people are cast into the lake of fire for their sins (crimes). No one will be. Rev 20:15 tells us specifically WHY people will be cast into the eternal lake of fire. For not possessing eternal life. A free gift that was available to every single human being on the planet.

No one has any excuse for not possessing eternal life. Rom 1:20.

You can put this on record ,I can't and won't serve a God like that,and if anyone tells me Im gonna go suffer forever for the above statement,I'll take that up with my Father!!!!

Believe whatever you want to believe. And go ahead and take it up with whoever your father is. But Scripture is clear. Those who never received the free gift of eternal life will have an eternity to consider it. As the smoke of their torment rises forever and ever. Rev 20:10.

 

[chessman]

That's the problem. How can smoke "go up forever and ever" IF the person ceases to exist? You've still not addressed that chink in your view.

I have addressed the smoke going up forever and ever Biblically using an example the Bible in fact tells us to use (the smoke rising from Sodom and Gomorrah’s destruction evidenced the very literal destruction of theses cites). Abraham looked down upon where they existed the day before and saw no existence of these cites at all, only the smoke rising from it’s destruction. They were destroyed by God’s fire expressly as an example of what awaits the lost after their resurrection, Judgment and punishment. Simple really.

And it’s being addressed still via Psalm 37 (though numerous other examples could also be used as the entire Bible is consistent on the final fate of the lost).

You think Psalm 37 is about the physical death of the wicked. Do you think it’s their 1st physical death or their second physical death that is being foretold of as justice in this Psalm? Since the lost and the saved both bodily die the 1st death don’t you think it’s contrasting something more than a 1st physical death that the saved also experience?

Do not fret because of evildoers; do not be envious of doers of wickedness. For like the grass they will dry up quickly, and like green vegetation they will wither.​

Psalm 37:1-2 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:1-2&version=LEB

Just take the first stanza, for example. Do you think David means to trust that Yahweh will dry up the doers of wickedness the same as the righteous through the 1st death or the 2nd?

Yahweh knows the days of the blameless, and their inheritance will be forever.​

Psalm 37:18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:18&version=LEB

Is the verse above about this age or the age to come in your opinion?

 

[chessman]

The phrase "to kill those upright" is obviously about physical death.

Yes, murder, as an example of the evil that evildoers do. Stealing, oppression, etc. being other examples listed in the Psalm. But by coloring this red, are you conflating the fact that evildoers murder the upright on occasion as somehow justifing that the entire Psalm has mere physical death as justice???

No. More like the "sin unto death", which is plainly stated in 1 Jn 5:16.

Okay, so John says we should pray for the lives of “brothers’” we see committing sins. That is all but one sin (“a sin leading to death”). Check.

If anyone should see his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he should ask, and he will grant life to him, to those who sin not leading to death. ( There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should ask about that.​

1 John 5:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 5:16&version=LEB

But on my view, this makes perfect sense since the weaked lost (those who reject Christ) actually do die a second death (their body and soul is destroyed in Hell). Why pray for them to live???

But if my view was that a wicked humsn Christ rejector lived in Hell, I’d have a problem harmonizing John’s admonition here.

Of course everyone will face physical death, save for a few humans; Elijah, Enoch, and the rapture generation. The point is the reason for their death.

Our bodies die physically (our bodies but not our souls) because we were birthed by our physical fathers, who were birthed by Adam in their genealogy. So??? We get new bodies.

Our souls do not die if we are birthed from Above. The souls of the wicked, however, do die eventually.

Behold, God is my helper; The Lord is the sustainer of my soul. He will recompense the evil to my foes; Destroy them in Your faithfulness.​

Psalm 54:4-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 54:4-5&version=NASB

I see no reason to question God's decisions. His policies are clear from Scripture. It seems your question is a challenge to God's decisions.

No my question was rhetorical to you;

“So when a murderer (killing the upright) escapes civil justice and dies wealthy, or dies a physical death in his old age, (prior to the resurrection and judgment) that's “justice like the noonday” to his victims???”​

 

[FreeGrace]

I have addressed the smoke going up forever and ever Biblically using an example the Bible in fact tells us to use (the smoke rising from Sodom and Gomorrah’s destruction evidenced the very literal destruction of theses cites).

Let's look at what the verse says about this:
Gen 19:28 - He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace.

This is quite obviously a description of a literal and physical destruction of the cities. But where do we see anything about the smoke rising forever and ever? We don't. So there's no comparison between S&G and Rev 20:10.

Abraham looked down upon where they existed the day before and saw no existence of these cites at all, only the smoke rising from it’s destruction.

The difference is that the smoke from the destruction (literal) of S&G isn't rising forever and ever

They were destroyed by God’s fire expressly as an example of what awaits the lost after their resurrection, Judgment and punishment. Simple really.

Yes, I agree. Quite simple.

And it’s being addressed still via Psalm 37 (though numerous other examples could also be used as the entire Bible is consistent on the final fate of the lost).

I addressed that chapter and showed where physical death was being described. Not eternal death.

You think Psalm 37 is about the physical death of the wicked. Do you think it’s their 1st physical death or their second physical death that is being foretold of as justice in this Psalm?

I don't believe there will ever be a second physical death.

Unbelievers will experience 2 deaths; one physical and one spiritual.

Since the lost and the saved both bodily die the 1st death don’t you think it’s contrasting something more than a 1st physical death that the saved also experience?

Not if it leads to the conflicting notion that a soul will cease to exist in the future.

Yahweh knows the days of the blameless, and their inheritance will be forever.
Psalm 37:18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:18&version=LEB
Is the verse above about this age or the age to come in your opinion?

Obviously the age to come.

 

[FreeGrace]

Yes, murder, as an example of the evil that evildoers do. Stealing, oppression, etc. being other examples listed in the Psalm. But by coloring this red, are you conflating the fact that evildoers murder the upright on occasion as somehow justifing that the entire Psalm has mere physical death as justice???

Okay, so John says we should pray for the lives of “brothers’” we see committing sins. That is all but one sin (“a sin leading to death”). Check.

If anyone should see his brother sinning a sin not leading to death, he should ask, and he will grant life to him, to those who sin not leading to death. ( There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he should ask about that.​

1 John 5:16 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=1 John 5:16&version=LEB

But on my view, this makes perfect sense since the weaked lost (those who reject Christ) actually do die a second death (their body and soul is destroyed in Hell). Why pray for them to live???

But if my view was that a wicked humsn Christ rejector lived in Hell, I’d have a problem harmonizing John’s admonition here.

Our bodies die physically (our bodies but not our souls) because we were birthed by our physical fathers, who were birthed by Adam in their genealogy. So??? We get new bodies.

Our souls do not die if we are birthed from Above. The souls of the wicked, however, do die eventually.

Behold, God is my helper; The Lord is the sustainer of my soul. He will recompense the evil to my foes; Destroy them in Your faithfulness.​

Psalm 54:4-5 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 54:4-5&version=NASB

No my question was rhetorical to you;

“So when a murderer (killing the upright) escapes civil justice and dies wealthy, or dies a physical death in his old age, (prior to the resurrection and judgment) that's “justice like the noonday” to his victims???”​

​

Please address how a soul that ceases to exist will be tormented forever and ever. That is the rub.

Please address how a soul that ceases to exist can experience ANYTHING after ceasing to exist.

These are the only issues that remain, that have not been addressed, as I recall.