The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[th1b.taylor]

What's the first death?

The first death is the passing of the Spirit, either into the presence of Jesus or into Hell to await the Great White Throne Judgment. The First Death is discussed in Rev 20:14, 20:6, 1Cor 15:50-55 and 2Thes 4:13-17.

The thing most folks miss is that we are created in the image of our Creator/God and He is an unseen Spirit that is without Beginning and without End. We have a beginning but our Spirits have no end and will reside with God or will suffer the Lake of Fire for Eternity.

 

[ezrider]

What's the first death?

Knowledge of the Law.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

I know they are teaching here., one sicked his pastor on me. I can't recall their screen name but that is a good thing about my disease, I have a problem with names.

Hey. it is snowing, just north of Houston, TX amd it is not January! Once in my 73 years it snowed so heavy it was on the roads and the people ere played Bumper Cars with their Automobiles. We do not do Snow.

They sicked their pastor on you. And he was wrong too! :yes
That's something right there. Good thing you don't remember their names I guess huh? ;) Oh, here comes silly again.

I have friends that live in both Dallas and Houston. I know snow there is a rarity.

In my hometown back when I was in my late teens there was a blizzard and a thunder storm all at the same time. No rain with the thunder, just snow so heavy you couldn't see past the stoop of your front door. Amazing! I never saw a white out like that and with huge brilliant flashes of grumbling thunder accompanying it. God really outdid himself when he orchestrated the wonders of nature and her symphony. Very entertaining. Never a dull moment.

 

[brujaq]

What crime deserves everlasting torture?None.

You can put this on record ,I can't and won't serve a God like that,and if anyone tells me Im gonna go suffer forever for the above statement,I'll take that up with my Father!!!!

1 Peter 4:18 .. I heard a preacher one time say ''He would give his son for every body if he could'' , stupidest thing I've ever heard , well one of the stupidest ..

 

[gr8grace3]

What crime deserves everlasting torture?None.

That is the problem. Unbelievers are not paying for a crime or for their sins. Jesus Christ paid for all sin and the punishment for ALL sin was paid.

Unbelievers deny Christ, and the work He did for them. The LoF is not about "paying" for something. It is about perpetually/eternally denying Christ and the work He did for them. As long as a person denies Christ there is no rest and no reprieve from this gross negligence.

As long as there is denial, there is punishment. And we never see an unbeliever accept Christ after their death nor after the resurrection of the wicked and the GWT.......perpetual denial of Christ= perpetual punishment for the unbeliever.

Matt 7:23~~New International Version
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

You can put this on record ,I can't and won't serve a God like that,and if anyone tells me Im gonna go suffer forever for the above statement,I'll take that up with my Father!!!!

If you don't believe in eternal punishment, that won't affect your salvation. It may affect some rewards or your service to Christ. But believers can NEVER perish.

 

[Papyrus_dust]

What crime deserves everlasting torture?None.

That's not to my recollection an affirmation that would encompass the parameters of "Universalism". That's denying sin and that's not within the confines of any Christian teaching I'm aware of.
Does anyone know what discipline would afford such a teaching? No sin deserves everlasting Hell?
Romans 2:4-5 “Or do you despise the riches of His goodness, forbearance, and long suffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads you to repentance? But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgement of God.”

You can put this on record ,I can't and won't serve a God like that,and if anyone tells me Im gonna go suffer forever for the above statement,I'll take that up with my Father!!!!

Your dad can't help you with this. If he doesn't repent of his sins he too shall suffer as the scriptures of God forewarn.
Only God and Jesus Christ have the answers.

Psalm 103:8-12 “The Lord is merciful and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in mercy. He will not always strive with us, nor will He keep His anger forever. He has not dealt with us according to our sins, nor punished us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us.”

Micah 7:18-20 "Who is a God like you,who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.You will again have compassion on us;you will tread our sins underfoot and hurl all our iniquities into the depths of the sea. You will be faithful to Jacob,and show love to Abraham,as you pledged on oath to our ancestors in days long ago."

Anyone denying the record God set down in his holy word insures corporeal records shall fade and rot away. But those who die without redemption shall suffer everlasting for their sins they took with them to the grave.

God sent his only begotten son that whosoever believe in his son shall have immortal life. Believing that the son took the sins of the world upon himself on the cross, repenting of the sins the individual carries with them in the flesh, and being reborn anew in grace and washed clean of those sins, insures the reward Christ promised. Eternal life , salvation, with the father. Conversely, those who die in their sins as sinners, ( Strong's Geek Lexicon: 268. hamartólos ) will suffer eternally for rejecting the free gift God gave through his grace alone. Received easily enough by anyone who chooses it , and through merely faith alone.

John 3:36 “He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”
Romans 1:18 “For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.”

May God speak to your heart so that his once suffering son may take you into the palm of his hand as one redeemed, reborn forever, in grace, mercy, and eternal salvation. Amen.

 

[chessman]

Gen 19:28 - He looked down toward Sodom and Gomorrah, toward all the land of the plain, and he saw dense smoke rising from the land, like smoke from a furnace

This is quite obviously a description of a literal and physical destruction of the cities.

Correct, it’s quite obviously literal. And again this is what Peter and Jude both say is an example of what awaits the lost, literal destruction. I haven’t made up the idea of this literal destruction being the example to look at for what awaits the lost. And again, the idea that the destruction of both the body and soul in Matt 10:28 being figurative ‘destruction’ (whatever that means) makes no sense given Luke’s account and Peter and James’ example and Jesus teaching that He will in fact, cast the lost into Hell.

But where do we see anything about the smoke rising forever and ever? We don't.

Actually, that’s not correct (systematically speaking) because it’s described elsewhere as indeed “rising forever” like the smoke from Edom’s destruction. But it’s beside the point, because the Biblical teaching is that the smoke of their torment rises forever, not that their torment lasts forever. I do NOT disagree that the smoke of the lost’s destruction rises forever. It does NOT say that lost humans are tormented forever, however. Or that they exist forever to use your word.

The toxic gases generated from the World Trade Center fires still circulate around the globe in our atmosphere, for example. They rise forever. Your chances of breathing some are near 100%, no matter where you live. Technically, so do those gases generated by any combustion of carbon (just ask Al Gore). Either as carbon dioxide or carbon monoxide gas.

So there's no comparison between S&G and Rev 20:10.

Ridiculous assertion. Both passages are describing the final fate of the lost. So is Psalm 37, when read as a whole.

and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men (for by what he saw and heard that righteous man, while living among them, felt his righteous soul tormented day after day by their lawless deeds), then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment, and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority.​

2 Peter 2:6-10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=2 Peter 2:6-10&version=NASB

The difference is that the smoke from the destruction (literal) of S&G isn't rising forever and ever

Sure it is.

I addressed that chapter and showed where physical death was being described. Not eternal death.

You showed in red where a physical death (a murder) was mentioned of a righteous person but ignored the fact that as a whole, it speaks of waiting on God’s Justice poured out upon the wicked.

But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish— like smoke they vanish away.​

Psalm 37:20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:20&version=NASB

If you think them vanishing like smoke speaks of their 1st death, you’ve missed the whole point of the Psalm telling the righteous to wait patiently on God’s justice for the wicked. Not to mention it makes me wonder where you live. Do you not have murderes in your county?

I don't believe there will ever be a second physical death.

Unbelievers will experience 2 deaths; one physical and one spiritual.

Again, being cast into Hell (a place prepared for Satan and his demons not humans) is called the second death, not the one spiritual death. Not to mention a place where the authority of the Lord to destroy both body and soul exists.

Obviously the age to come.

Then the context of Psalm 37 IS about justice in the age to come.

Please address how a soul that ceases to exist will be tormented forever and ever. That is the rub.

There is no Scripture that says lost human souls (or bodies) are tormented forever and ever. There’s nothing, Scripturally speaking, to address relative to lost human souls being tormented forever and ever.

It’s an idea stemming from people that have the idea that the Lord cannot actually destroy the lost in Hell.

 

[FreeGrace]

Correct, it’s quite obviously literal. And again this is what Peter and Jude both say is an example of what awaits the lost, literal destruction.

I have asked for an explanation of 2 things, which have yet to be addressed.

"Please address how a soul that ceases to exist will be tormented forever and ever. That is the rub.

Please address how a soul that ceases to exist can experience ANYTHING after ceasing to exist.

These are the only issues that remain, that have not been addressed, as I recall."

Until these are addressed/explained, I cannot proceed with further discussion. These are show-stoppers for me.

There is no way for a soul that has ceased to exist to experience anything, much less torment.

But it’s beside the point, because the Biblical teaching is that the smoke of their torment rises forever, not that their torment lasts forever.

Actually, that is the point. How can smoke last forever? Smoke comes from what is burning. When the burning stops, the smoke stops.

There is a lot to address explain from your views.

I do NOT disagree that the smoke of the lost’s destruction rises forever. It does NOT say that lost humans are tormented forever, however. Or that they exist forever to use your word.

Since Rev 20:10 is in the very same context as the Great White Throne Judgment (v.11-15), they are totally related.

iow, whoever gets cast into the lof will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The toxic gases generated from the World Trade Center fires still circulate around the globe in our atmosphere, for example. They rise forever.

They are not "rising forever". That's just poetic license.

Your chances of breathing some are near 100%, no matter where you live. Technically, so do those gases generated by any combustion of carbon (just ask Al Gore). Either as carbon dioxide or carbon monoxide gas.

I don't give a hoot what Algore thinks.

Again, being cast into Hell (a place prepared for Satan and his demons not humans) is called the second death, not the one spiritual death.

Apparently you're not aware that this place was prepared for Satan and his followers before man existed. It would obviously have existed WHEN (or shortly thereafter) the dragon and his followers rebelled.

Then the context of Psalm 37 IS about justice in the age to come.

Oh, there WILL BE justice in the age to come. No doubt about it.

There is no Scripture that says lost human souls (or bodies) are tormented forever and ever. There’s nothing, Scripturally speaking, to address relative to lost human souls being tormented forever and ever.

There is, in Rev 20:10-15.

It’s an idea stemming from people that have the idea that the Lord cannot actually destroy the lost in Hell.

I believe I recall that those who believe in ECT have acknowledged that the Lord is able to cause souls to cease to exist. And that's not the point. There IS Scripture that clearly indicates that souls and angels will be tormented forever and ever.

This torment isn't punishment for sin. It's a torment that realizes just how easy it would have been to receive God's free gift of eternal life that has been purchased for everyone, yet was rejected/ignored/denied/etc.

In eternity, there are only 2 places of existence; either with God or apart from God. All who have believed are given eternal life and will live with God. All who failed to receive the free gift cannot live with God, and therefore, have to live apart from Him, which the Bible plainly defines as the "second death" or the lof.

 

[Free]

You became a child of God when He created you..

Job 38:7 "When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for Joy?"

That verse has no application to when humans become sons of God. The NT is very clear, as I and others have shown.

 

[gr8grace3]

These are the only issues that remain, that have not been addressed, as I recall."

I would interject one more. The LoF is not the judgement or punishment for sin. ALL sin has been paid for. And the premise of annihilation is judgment or punishment of sin. They are arguing from a false premise. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin, so unbelievers are punished for something eternal(denying what Christ did for them) Eternal denial=eternal punishment.

 

[Traveling teacher]

A question
Lookup the number of times
Everlasting torment
Everlasting fire
Everlasting punishment
Is used

Why would you need everlasting fire to burn up people...
Nazis only needed fire for a few minutes to burn up people in there ovens.....
I've seen my papa burn cows up in the pasture thAt died....from desease
Doesn't take everlasting fire....
A few hours will do

 

[gr8grace3]

A question
Lookup the number of times
Everlasting torment
Everlasting fire
Everlasting punishment
Is used

Why would you need everlasting fire to burn up people...
Nazis only needed fire for a few minutes to burn up people in there ovens.....
I've seen my papa burn cows up in the pasture thAt died....from desease
Doesn't take everlasting fire....
A few hours will do

That is the conundrum. If annihilation and ceasing to exist satisfies Gods justice......even a few hours of punishment for some and many hours of punishment of others is UNJUST.

 

[Free]

A question
Lookup the number of times
Everlasting torment
Everlasting fire
Everlasting punishment
Is used

Why would you need everlasting fire to burn up people...
Nazis only needed fire for a few minutes to burn up people in there ovens.....
I've seen my papa burn cows up in the pasture thAt died....from desease
Doesn't take everlasting fire....
A few hours will do

So your problem then is with Scripture.

 

[chessman]

iow, whoever gets cast into the lof will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

IOW??? Like I said, the Bible doesn’t actually say the lost will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Those are other people’s words about what they think will happen to the lost.

They are not "rising forever". That's just poetic license.

Yes, the smoke of S&G’s destruction is still rising. Poetically and literally.

Apparently you're not aware that this place was prepared for Satan and his followers before man existed.

Scripture says it was prepared for Satan and his demons as I said.

Oh, there WILL BE justice in the age to come. No doubt about it.

Correct.

But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish— like smoke they vanish away.​

Psalm 37:20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:20&version=NASB

There is, in Rev 20:10-15.

Which does not say that lost humans are tormented forever.

V7-10 is about the defeat of Satan and his demons which ends with them being tormented forever. Assuming demons who cannot die a first death much less a second and THEIR eternal torment with the eternal destruction and second death of lost mankind is assumptive, at best.

And the devil, the one deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur— where both the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented by day and by night forever and ever.​

Revelation 20:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=DLNT

V11 begins John’s 6th vision of The Great White Throne Judgment and Lake of Fire and does not say that the lost will be eternally tormented but rather ends with the vision’s interpretation - second death.

And I saw a great white throne, and the One sitting on it, from Whose presence the earth fled, and the heaven, and a place was not found for them. ... And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire.​

Revelation 20:11,14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:11,14&version=DLNT

There IS Scripture that clearly indicates that souls and angels will be tormented forever and ever.

No, that’s an assumption being made which is contrary to their Scripturally stated destruction and second death administered by the Lord who is able to judge and destroy both body and soul of the lost in Hell.

 

[gr8grace3]

Scripture says it was prepared for Satan and his demons as I said.

Isaiah 5~~
13Therefore My people go into exile for their lack of knowledge;
And their honorable men are famished,
And their multitude is parched with thirst.

14Therefore Sheol has enlarged its throat and opened its mouth without measure;
And Jerusalem’s splendor, her multitude, her din of revelry and the jubilant within her, descend into it.

 

[FreeGrace]

I would interject one more. The LoF is not the judgement or punishment for sin. ALL sin has been paid for. And the premise of annihilation is judgment or punishment of sin. They are arguing from a false premise. Jesus Christ paid the penalty for sin, so unbelievers are punished for something eternal(denying what Christ did for them) Eternal denial=eternal punishment.

Agreed. I said this at the end of my post:
"This torment isn't punishment for sin. It's a torment that realizes just how easy it would have been to receive God's free gift of eternal life that has been purchased for everyone, yet was rejected/ignored/denied/etc.

In eternity, there are only 2 places of existence; either with God or apart from God. All who have believed are given eternal life and will live with God. All who failed to receive the free gift cannot live with God, and therefore, have to live apart from Him, which the Bible plainly defines as the "second death" or the lof."

 

[FreeGrace]

IOW??? Like I said, the Bible doesn’t actually say the lost will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Those are other people’s words about what they think will happen to the lost.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. Rev 20:10-15 is clear enough for me.

Yes, the smoke of S&G’s destruction is still rising. Poetically and literally.

Your explanation only supports the fact that matter cannot be destroyed. Nothing else.

Scripture says it was prepared for Satan and his demons as I said.

Not exactly. The Greek word means "messengers" and is used for both angels and humans.

V11 begins John’s 6th vision of The Great White Throne Judgment and Lake of Fire and does not say that the lost will be eternally tormented but rather ends with the vision’s interpretation - second death.

And I saw a great white throne, and the One sitting on it, from Whose presence the earth fled, and the heaven, and a place was not found for them. ... And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire.​

Revelation 20:11,14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:11,14&version=DLNT

Those at the GWT judgment who don't possess eternal life will be cast into the same place as the devil, beast and false prophet were thrown.

[/QUOTE]No, that’s an assumption being made which is contrary to their Scripturally stated destruction and second death administered by the Lord who is able to judge and destroy both body and soul of the lost in Hell.[/QUOTE]
I have asked for an explanation of 2 things, which have yet to be addressed.

Please address how a soul that ceases to exist will be tormented forever and ever. That is the rub.

Please address how a soul that ceases to exist can experience ANYTHING after ceasing to exist.

These are the only issues that remain, that have not been addressed, as I recall."

Until these are addressed/explained, I cannot proceed with further discussion. These are show-stoppers for me.

There is no way for a soul that has ceased to exist to experience anything, much less torment.

 

[chessman]

Those at the GWT judgment who don't possess eternal life will be cast into the same place as the devil, beast and false prophet were thrown.

Correct, we agree. Those at the GWTJ who do NOT possess eternal life ...!

I have addressed your two things at least twice already. No Scripture says that non-Eternal life possessors either live forever or experience torment forever. So your questions assumes facts not in evidence.

On the otherhand, I have presented Biblical evidences that they are destroyed forever after the GWTJ, both body and soul in Hell.

Can you explain how someone who does NOT possess eternal life, lives forever?

 

[Randy]

IOW??? Like I said, the Bible doesn’t actually say the lost will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Those are other people’s words about what they think will happen to the lost.


Yes, the smoke of S&G’s destruction is still rising. Poetically and literally.


Scripture says it was prepared for Satan and his demons as I said.


Correct.

But the wicked will perish; And the enemies of the Lord will be like the glory of the pastures, They vanish— like smoke they vanish away.​

Psalm 37:20 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Psalm 37:20&version=NASB


Which does not say that lost humans are tormented forever.

V7-10 is about the defeat of Satan and his demons which ends with them being tormented forever. Assuming demons who cannot die a first death much less a second and THEIR eternal torment with the eternal destruction and second death of lost mankind is assumptive, at best.

And the devil, the one deceiving them, was thrown into the lake of fire and sulphur— where both the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented by day and by night forever and ever.​

Revelation 20:10 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:10&version=DLNT

V11 begins John’s 6th vision of The Great White Throne Judgment and Lake of Fire and does not say that the lost will be eternally tormented but rather ends with the vision’s interpretation - second death.

And I saw a great white throne, and the One sitting on it, from Whose presence the earth fled, and the heaven, and a place was not found for them. ... And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire.​

Revelation 20:11,14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 20:11,14&version=DLNT


No, that’s an assumption being made which is contrary to their Scripturally stated destruction and second death administered by the Lord who is able to judge and destroy both body and soul of the lost in Hell.

Isn't the false prophet a human? And if the spirit of the false prophet and the spirit of angels were not annihilated by the lake of fire than the lake of fire in itself does not destroy spirit. The scripture states the final outcome of every name not found in the book of life from the creation of the world is the lake of fire. And there will be no rest night and day for those souls only torment. Th punishment is the same for man and angels who have been so judged into the lake of fire.

 

[chessman]

Isn't the false prophet a human?

Not The False Prophet of John’s visions.

It’s interpretation is said to be that of a demon:

And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false-prophet. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go out to the kings of the whole world to gather them together for the battle of the great day of God Almighty.​

Revelation 16:13-14 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Revelation 16:13-14&version=DLNT