The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[Papa Zoom]

Amen, to your giving.
This illustrates something in my life which is always difficult to picture.
In coming to the Lord and walking with Him we do things that are our life, part of who we are.
When sharing with those who have not begun or just starting these things are yet to be discovered.

I think this is where we as a body we need to see the life we have and where it is lacking in others.
It is the wealth of love, that those without need to see they can open the door and let Christ in.

I saw a quick video of someone committing suicide, because of the disappointments in their life.
I know the pain and loss these situations are full of, and then this morning I spent time with the Lord
and felt His eternal presence and beauty. And this beauty overwhelms and pushes away the darkness
and despair that wounds, because in eternity, there is love and life, which is here today with us in Christ.
When you hear the prosperity preachers it is as if the wealth of the world is the wealth of Christ in God,
and not the treasure within, and the love and transformation He has done in our hearts.

Amen to all of that. My pastor once said that "God doesn't want you rich. He want you faithful." Nothing surpasses the riches we find in with God in Christ!

 

[PeterJens]

I said this:
"This so badly fails to understand what I've posted."

Your memories and "many other conversations" has zero relation to my posts. I was hoping for dialogue, but you've been clear that it isn't going to happen.

Zero relation to any of my posts.

What??!! Whatever "wealth and respect" you've supposedly earned has zero relation to any of my posts, and I have no interest in whoever the "they" may be who are supposed to "quake in fear" when you "appear".
Much less the "gifting and power" that you "represent".

Funnily my illustration is not my approach but others.

Now you talk about the desire for dialogue, yet the concept and approach you represent where salvation
cannot be lost, has to be defined in terms of what it is that is gained, how it manifests itself and what it
means to be in the Kingdom. These are all sown together. As soon as you project hatred etc onto my
sharing, I then extend the subject area to connect theological points regarding holiness and purity, along
with forgiveness.

If you cannot address these connected issues there is actually nothing to discuss as you are just dismissing
the points. Again I have much experience of people from this position, so I have little time unless you can
address the calling of Christ to follow Him in the way laid out in the sermon on the mount. As Jesus said,
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."
Matt 7:24

Now I have been amazed at the silence about this obvious advice and command.
And also about Paul being the example of how to follow Christ, Peter calling from us to be Holy, James saying
we must put into action the love in our hearts for it to be real.

I suspect the concept here being followed is dialogue on my terms or you are not communicating.
And in a dialogue each party brings their own points which the other can ignore or address. It seems like the
idea of destruction of the soul in the lake of fire is linked to the other beliefs you have about being born again.
Some take an almost gnostic view of being born again is having a perfect spirit in a fallen body. This dualism
in their mind is resolved at the resurrection when the flesh or body, which brings sin is destroyed. It creates a
compromised moral position where to preach against sin is evil, as for some all sin is now forgiven through the
cross and everything is just down to accepting Jesus or not.

Now I do not want to say believers are missleading and ignoring obvious subjects and realities, but that is exactly
what they are doing. And their justification was the evil in the world is the desire to be good, rather than accept Jesus.
But for me this is a wrong connection, Jesus empowers us to walk as He walked. That is the whole point of salvation
to come into obedience to the King, as slaves of righteousness.

We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
1 John 2:3-6

 

[FreeGrace]

Funnily my illustration is not my approach but others.

What's the difference? And why does it matter where they come from?

Now you talk about the desire for dialogue, yet the concept and approach you represent where salvation
cannot be lost, has to be defined in terms of what it is that is gained, how it manifests itself and what it
means to be in the Kingdom. These are all sown together.

Actually, I've provided clear verses that speak of eternal security directly.

For example, Jesus taught that those who believe actually possess (have) eternal life. John 3;15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:47. Also 1 John 5:13.

This means that the moment one believes, they possess eternal life. Because there are no verses about receiving eternal life any time AFTER initially believing in Christ.

Then, Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life (recipients) shall never perish in John 10:28.

Slam dunk.

If salvation can be lost, then John 10:28 cannot be true. Some recipients will perish. Totally in opposition to what Jesus said.

As soon as you project hatred etc onto my sharing, I then extend the subject area to connect theological points regarding holiness and purity, along with forgiveness.

OK, I've already addressed this, but apparently it was missed. I never projected anything onto your sharing. I pointed out that #3 in your list is simply a description of something that is hateful. No one likes to hear about a believer who does something horrible.

But that seems to be the favored style of those in opposition to eternal security. They come up with the most hateful description of behavior they can think of, in hopes that others will agree with them that such a person could not possibly get into heaven.

But such an idea places one's eternal security on their own behavior, not on the grace of Jesus Christ.

Further, it directly opposes what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; that some CAN and WILL perish. Yet, He said that recipients (those He gives eternal life) shall never perish.

If you cannot address these connected issues there is actually nothing to discuss as you are just dismissing
the points.

What I've presented are direct quotes from Scripture, which teach eternal security.

Those who may disagree are free to address each verse, use exegesis and prove that the verse teaches something other than eternal security.

Again I have much experience of people from this position, so I have little time unless you can
address the calling of Christ to follow Him in the way laid out in the sermon on the mount. As Jesus said,
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."
Matt 7:24

Of course I'll address this. YES, Jesus Christ calls EVERY believer to a holy life.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Notice what comes first: "saved us". That's before we are called to a holy life, which is basically what Eph 1:4 says; "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."

Now I have been amazed at the silence about this obvious advice and command.
And also about Paul being the example of how to follow Christ, Peter calling from us to be Holy, James saying
we must put into action the love in our hearts for it to be real.

Yet, none of this speaks to the possibility of losing salvation.

Consider this: if one can lose salvation, then the phrase "eternal life" cannot be really eternal. Such life (eternal) cannot be lost. It IS eternal.

So, OSNAS reduces eternal life to "possible" eternal life, or "temporal life" in the sense of only possessing it as long as certain criteria are met.

Yet John 10:28 has only 1 condition for never perishing: to be given eternal life. That's it.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Funnily my illustration is not my approach but others.

Now you talk about the desire for dialogue, yet the concept and approach you represent where salvation
cannot be lost, has to be defined in terms of what it is that is gained, how it manifests itself and what it
means to be in the Kingdom. These are all sown together. As soon as you project hatred etc onto my
sharing, I then extend the subject area to connect theological points regarding holiness and purity, along
with forgiveness.

If you cannot address these connected issues there is actually nothing to discuss as you are just dismissing
the points. Again I have much experience of people from this position, so I have little time unless you can
address the calling of Christ to follow Him in the way laid out in the sermon on the mount. As Jesus said,
"Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock."
Matt 7:24

Now I have been amazed at the silence about this obvious advice and command.
And also about Paul being the example of how to follow Christ, Peter calling from us to be Holy, James saying
we must put into action the love in our hearts for it to be real.

I suspect the concept here being followed is dialogue on my terms or you are not communicating.
And in a dialogue each party brings their own points which the other can ignore or address. It seems like the
idea of destruction of the soul in the lake of fire is linked to the other beliefs you have about being born again.
Some take an almost gnostic view of being born again is having a perfect spirit in a fallen body. This dualism
in their mind is resolved at the resurrection when the flesh or body, which brings sin is destroyed. It creates a
compromised moral position where to preach against sin is evil, as for some all sin is now forgiven through the
cross and everything is just down to accepting Jesus or not.

Now I do not want to say believers are missleading and ignoring obvious subjects and realities, but that is exactly
what they are doing. And their justification was the evil in the world is the desire to be good, rather than accept Jesus.
But for me this is a wrong connection, Jesus empowers us to walk as He walked. That is the whole point of salvation
to come into obedience to the King, as slaves of righteousness.

We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person. But if anyone obeys his word, love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.
1 John 2:3-6

And that will preach!

 

[th1b.taylor]

What's the difference? And why does it matter where they come from?


Actually, I've provided clear verses that speak of eternal security directly.

For example, Jesus taught that those who believe actually possess (have) eternal life. John 3;15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:47. Also 1 John 5:13.

This means that the moment one believes, they possess eternal life. Because there are no verses about receiving eternal life any time AFTER initially believing in Christ.

Then, Jesus taught that those He gives eternal life (recipients) shall never perish in John 10:28.

Slam dunk.

If salvation can be lost, then John 10:28 cannot be true. Some recipients will perish. Totally in opposition to what Jesus said.


OK, I've already addressed this, but apparently it was missed. I never projected anything onto your sharing. I pointed out that #3 in your list is simply a description of something that is hateful. No one likes to hear about a believer who does something horrible.

But that seems to be the favored style of those in opposition to eternal security. They come up with the most hateful description of behavior they can think of, in hopes that others will agree with them that such a person could not possibly get into heaven.

But such an idea places one's eternal security on their own behavior, not on the grace of Jesus Christ.

Further, it directly opposes what Jesus said about recipients of eternal life; that some CAN and WILL perish. Yet, He said that recipients (those He gives eternal life) shall never perish.


What I've presented are direct quotes from Scripture, which teach eternal security.

Those who may disagree are free to address each verse, use exegesis and prove that the verse teaches something other than eternal security.


Of course I'll address this. YES, Jesus Christ calls EVERY believer to a holy life.

2 Tim 1:9 - He has saved us and called us to a holy life—not because of anything we have done but because of his own purpose and grace. This grace was given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time,

Notice what comes first: "saved us". That's before we are called to a holy life, which is basically what Eph 1:4 says; "For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight."


Yet, none of this speaks to the possibility of losing salvation.

Consider this: if one can lose salvation, then the phrase "eternal life" cannot be really eternal. Such life (eternal) cannot be lost. It IS eternal.

So, OSNAS reduces eternal life to "possible" eternal life, or "temporal life" in the sense of only possessing it as long as certain criteria are met.

Yet John 10:28 has only 1 condition for never perishing: to be given eternal life. That's it.

And this preaches and is my Faith also. For the reasonable reasoning in both of these posts, supported, both of them, by scripture, is why I never engage the opposite view. They both fall within the pail of orthodoxy. I just promise to wave as both of us ascend into that cloud.

 

[FreeGrace]

And this preaches and is my Faith also. For the reasonable reasoning in both of these posts, supported, both of them, by scripture, is why I never engage the opposite view. They both fall within the pail of orthodoxy. I just promise to wave as both of us ascend into that cloud.

Yes, we'll all be waving!!

 

[PeterJens]

There are two views on conditional security.
You have faith therefore have passed from death to life.
This kind of phrase links faith to the results in the heart and what the future has.
It does not say it is a fixed position or one that can change.

Now for me it is obvious faith and all relationships are living things, that if they die, then
so does the consequences. It appears people want the consequences to be absolute
and eternal even though the position might be temporary.

Ofcourse it is up to the believer to make the choice and believe what they believe.
My only point is life and relationships are living things, and like a marriage it relies on
a good basis.
"You are my friends if you do what I command you." John 15:14

Jesus is very keen to describe how open He is to repentant sinners who walk in His ways,
and how those to mix friendship with sin will fail. So it would appear to me all the promises
are founded upon this relationship and faithfulness.

Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
1 John 3:24

Now I have read some who turn the commandment on its head by claiming God commands us to believe
so if we believe we are obeying the commands. But I have yet to find one verse that commands us to
believe, rather when we believe He will reward us.

 

[WIP]

This thread should be brought back to topic. The topic is not OSAS vs OSNAS, it is Eternal Conscious Torment (ETC) vs total annihilation which has also been shown to cause much heated discussion so please remember to check emotions at the door.

 

[PeterJens]

Where I find agreement with my brothers and sisters in whatever version of emphasis we have
we can still respect and love one another.
We are discussing what God will do, not what man will do, so our only reference is the Word of
God.

I read a pamphlet by Deedat, who was trying to down grade all Christs words. And it is always
possible to do this, by saying for instance the term Lord, only means a respected teacher.
The problem I have with all this logic, is Jesus was unique. He did things at a time when nothing
like it was happening, and was testified to by men who died proclaiming Gods love to mankind because
Jesus rose from the dead.

What has struck me over the years, is literally in literature there is nothing like it.
There are claims by others that other sects or groups said similar things, but where are their writings and
testimony? There is literally nothing. But a drawing, or one word here and there are meant to be the
equivalent to the living Word of God.

When a group say that the sermon on the mount can be ignored by believers, this strays over from othordoxy
to heresy. It is saying all Jesus's words can be ignored and only the apostles taken as authority. This is an odd
position, because the apostles teach the same thing Jesus taught. I have come to realise that it is the heart of
the believers who get stuck with the idea of purity and holiness.

It is bound up also in the Lake of fire and Heaven. Our relationship with Christ is as a friend.
What did Jesus say to Peter. "Do you love me?"

Do we truly love Jesus and listen to His every eternal word in our hearts?
His people do. And it is this that marks us in the Lambs book of life.
How many people who are like Christ do you truly love?

 

[WIP]

Where I find agreement with my brothers and sisters in whatever version of emphasis we have
we can still respect and love one another.
We are discussing what God will do, not what man will do, so our only reference is the Word of
God.

I read a pamphlet by Deedat, who was trying to down grade all Christs words. And it is always
possible to do this, by saying for instance the term Lord, only means a respected teacher.
The problem I have with all this logic, is Jesus was unique. He did things at a time when nothing
like it was happening, and was testified to by men who died proclaiming Gods love to mankind because
Jesus rose from the dead.

What has struck me over the years, is literally in literature there is nothing like it.
There are claims by others that other sects or groups said similar things, but where are their writings and
testimony? There is literally nothing. But a drawing, or one word here and there are meant to be the
equivalent to the living Word of God.

When a group say that the sermon on the mount can be ignored by believers, this strays over from othordoxy
to heresy. It is saying all Jesus's words can be ignored and only the apostles taken as authority. This is an odd
position, because the apostles teach the same thing Jesus taught. I have come to realise that it is the heart of
the believers who get stuck with the idea of purity and holiness.

It is bound up also in the Lake of fire and Heaven. Our relationship with Christ is as a friend.
What did Jesus say to Peter. "Do you love me?"

Do we truly love Jesus and listen to His every eternal word in our hearts?
His people do. And it is this that marks us in the Lambs book of life.
How many people who are like Christ do you truly love?

I'm not seeing how this post relates to this thread. Please clarify.

 

[th1b.taylor]

There are two views on conditional security.
You have faith therefore have passed from death to life.
This kind of phrase links faith to the results in the heart and what the future has.
It does not say it is a fixed position or one that can change.

Now for me it is obvious faith and all relationships are living things, that if they die, then
so does the consequences. It appears people want the consequences to be absolute
and eternal even though the position might be temporary.

Ofcourse it is up to the believer to make the choice and believe what they believe.
My only point is life and relationships are living things, and like a marriage it relies on
a good basis.
"You are my friends if you do what I command you." John 15:14

Jesus is very keen to describe how open He is to repentant sinners who walk in His ways,
and how those to mix friendship with sin will fail. So it would appear to me all the promises
are founded upon this relationship and faithfulness.

Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.
1 John 3:24

Now I have read some who turn the commandment on its head by claiming God commands us to believe
so if we believe we are obeying the commands. But I have yet to find one verse that commands us to
believe, rather when we believe He will reward us.

Hooo-boy!!! Your post, seemingly, without your considering it concerns one of God's greatest Revelations to me,His personal dummy.

Seldom do men consider the truth, up close and personally but to find and then to fully grasp, makes such a difference in how we view the information God has recorded for our edification.

I'll begin with a clear declaration, I go to Church, most of the time and in these last years I always worship with My Church Family and I go there because every member there, black, white or brown is my brother or my sister, we all realize that we are not Baptists but rather we are a Family Segment of the Family of God, Christian, not Baptist.

Now, Predestination. Predestination, like it or not is a fact because it is recorded in God's Holy Word. But to get a grasp on why God knows when I will wakeup, what I will accomplish is irrevocably strapped to the character of our God. I believe most people understand God's Omnipotence and Omniscience well enough but because we are human, human we are not reading the Word with a slightly skewed view because this information, though all taught in scripture, I have never heard another teach it from the pulpit, God is Omnipresent.

It should be easy enough to understand anywhere one will go in our Time/Space Continuum. But we almost never consider the truth that all of this is created from nothing into all of the universe. (Genesis 1:1) Each time God spoke it happened. Now an envelope was needed to contain this work making the hinted at but never discussed, surely a-pejed on the first 24 hour day of creation and that envelope is our Time/Space Continuum.

We do find God at work within that envelope but remember He
Created Everything.and He required nothing but certainly was not contained within the envelope as He created it.

Several times we learn that a thousand years are ads a day to God and visa versa. Tie means nothing to our God. Now couple that with His Omnipresence and there and the power of God begins to come into focus. For God just is: In the future, in the present and in the past, right now.

God is neither is neither capricious nor does He create humans, specifically to suffer in Hell and to be put into the Lake of Fire later. He does, however, already know every thought and action we have and will ever have and commit to do. That is how God can/did write te Books of Life before He created this existence for us, His most cherished creation.

 

[PeterJens]

Hooo-boy!!! Your post, seemingly, without your considering it concerns one of God's greatest Revelations to me,His personal dummy.

Seldom do men consider the truth, up close and personally but to find and then to fully grasp, makes such a difference in how we view the information God has recorded for our edification.

I'll begin with a clear declaration, I go to Church, most of the time and in these last years I always worship with My Church Family and I go there because every member there, black, white or brown is my brother or my sister, we all realize that we are not Baptists but rather we are a Family Segment of the Family of God, Christian, not Baptist.

Now, Predestination. Predestination, like it or not is a fact because it is recorded in God's Holy Word. But to get a grasp on why God knows when I will wakeup, what I will accomplish is irrevocably strapped to the character of our God. I believe most people understand God's Omnipotence and Omniscience well enough but because we are human, human we are not reading the Word with a slightly skewed view because this information, though all taught in scripture, I have never heard another teach it from the pulpit, God is Omnipresent.

It should be easy enough to understand anywhere one will go in our Time/Space Continuum. But we almost never consider the truth that all of this is created from nothing into all of the universe. (Genesis 1:1) Each time God spoke it happened. Now an envelope was needed to contain this work making the hinted at but never discussed, surely a-pejed on the first 24 hour day of creation and that envelope is our Time/Space Continuum.

We do find God at work within that envelope but remember He
Created Everything.and He required nothing but certainly was not contained within the envelope as He created it.

Several times we learn that a thousand years are ads a day to God and visa versa. Tie means nothing to our God. Now couple that with His Omnipresence and there and the power of God begins to come into focus. For God just is: In the future, in the present and in the past, right now.

God is neither is neither capricious nor does He create humans, specifically to suffer in Hell and to be put into the Lake of Fire later. He does, however, already know every thought and action we have and will ever have and commit to do. That is how God can/did write te Books of Life before He created this existence for us, His most cherished creation.

I believe in Predestination. Now God for knows what will happen.
Gods character is to let the consequences of actions be worked out to their conclusion.
The fruit of ones actions is shown in their result.

But what fruit is there in torture in Hell for those who were born lost and stayed lost.
The lost will always inherit death, because without communion with God death is all we receive.

The whole of life is to give those living in darkness with the knowledge of their inevitable end a
hope of real life, eternal life, life that is holy, pure and perfect without fault or blemish.

Some would call me calvanist in believing in the total lostness of man without Gods revelation.
Without God shinning His light on us, we have no hope. If we then open the door and let Him
in, everything can change.

Some have constructed the idea all are saved, except they are doomed to hell for rejecting Christ.
What I mean by saved, is sin and its consequences in death have been removed. But for me this
is just delusion, because sin and separation from God always leads to death. Christ dying was the
key of the path to salvation and forgiveness but only if you walk it.

In this partial unversalist theology, sin in the world is now irrelevant, other than as an indicator of our
need of Christ, but there is not victory. Now this type of story works well in a middle class, nice society
where everything just bubbles along, and everyone is nice to their neighbours, or appear to be.

But if we are talking love, forgiveness, purity, holiness, it is just hypocracy and religion, theology to
appease the conscience without any power.

You see, at just the right time, when we were still powerless, Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:6

As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.
James 2:26

They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Jude 1:4

 

[th1b.taylor]

But what fruit is there in torture in Hell for those who were born lost and stayed lost.
The lost will always inherit death, because without communion with God death is all we receive.

Yes but what death? The Holy Word of God teaches us that our ways are not God's way in Isa 55:8. Then in Revelation 21:8 we find there is a death beyond the Natural Death whereby folks bury the decaying corpse.

 

[PeterJens]

Yes but what death? The Holy Word of God teaches us that our ways are not God's way in Isa 55:8. Then in Revelation 21:8 we find there is a death beyond the Natural Death whereby folks bury the decaying corpse.

I can see 2 deaths.
1. The physical death here on earth
2. The death of the soul in the Lake of fire

One could argue people are dead without God before they physically die, so those who gain communion with
God have passed from death, to life. And the life they then dwell in is eternal life, because communion with
God is an eternal communion, but only if you continue to abide in it.

What I find interesting or sad depending on how you view it, is those who say salvation is about being saved
rather than dwelling in God, and you are saved no matter you state of communion with God.

But this changes what the essential point Jesus is making in forgiveness and coming to earth. Everything is centred
on our walk with God in Christ, which is where our hearts are. If our hearts are not there, where are they and if they
are elsewhere they are in sin and therefore doomed to hell.

What believers find hard to grasp is the nature of love and becoming one with Christ and learning how to get alongside
others so you feel their pain and trauma, and it becomes ones own. In Christ love delivers us from the pain, but it is
about empathy and carrying anothers burden.

I thought others understood or felt this, but obviously not.
Some expressed great dislike of the idea of becoming one in thought and mind in Christ, they just liked the idea they were
accepted as they were and they could continue in a disjointed individualistic way of living, without seeing either what was
really going on or seeing how they could bring change about in this situation. One step worse was the antagonism against
anyone who suggested this was the way of Christ. It was like planting a bomb underneath them.

I now realise I can assume nothing, and must listen to what people say before knowing what they believe even though they
appear to follow the same Lord as myself, it may not be the case.

 

[PeterJens]

I'm not seeing how this post relates to this thread. Please clarify.

If one has a theology of heaven and hell, one has a theology of being with God and not being with God.
Hell is a place where God is not, and communion with God is not possible.
Heaven is where God is and His people who follow His will.

Now just defining heaven and hell in these ways defines what it means to be in the Kingdom and following
Christ and what it does not.

So if the whole point of existance is to be with Christ, in communion then destruction eternally is not an issue
or a problem.

If on the other hand all people are eternal and can never be destroyed and belief in Christ is the only issue,
the opposite of belief, unbelief dooms one to eternal torment.

So models of faith lead to logical conclusions with then lead to interpretations or adding to summary verses
which do not describe enough to fill in the background.

So if I believe souls are eternal, it would be heresy to preach they could be destroyed. This then leads on to
the idea that people who hold to this idea must be not of God, therefore evil, possibly in league with the enemy
and so whatever they say is going to be wrong. I have been on the wrong end of this kind of logic, so whatever
I am, because of a belief stand I must be ultimately evil.

Funnily it is not the chain of logic I have a problem with but the conclusion, which for me shows the logic must
be wrong because it ends up condemning love in someones heart based on faith or belief and not on moral
sin and evil deeds, which has always been Gods measure throughout history.

Behaviour is the fruit of our beliefs, so believe in the wrong things and we will commit evil deeds.
Man often says wrong belief is evil, and must be corrected before love and salvation can come about.
I have found the opposite. It is the conviction our deeds are evil because we view the world wrongly, that
bring revelation, because the light of Jesus shows us the way, the way of life and love, which leads to
eternity. These people deny this reality, which is my heartbeat, not just an idle set of ideas, but what my
whole life is founded on in Christ, and my experience of love working through me.

So I am interested in the idea of torment and the lake of fire and seeing how this fits in to what the Lord
has shown me, and how scripture presents it in detail. I hope this helps, God bless.

 

[th1b.taylor]

If on the other hand all people are eternal and can never be destroyed and belief in Christ is the only issue,
the opposite of belief, unbelief dooms one to eternal torment.

And therein is your major problem with the concept, you are discussing people. The Image of God is eternal and the real person is the Spirit Being God breathed into us. Please think and form a logical and correct theology point here.

God teaches us in;
Isaiah 55:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
(Thanks to the Bible Gateway)
God has never been a man before the Holy Spirit of God planted the seed containing the ever lasting seed of Jesus in Mary. Yet from before time began, the Son of God has been and in Eternity, He always will be. That is the Image of God, not these puny seventy year containers, they are the envelope that contains the Spirit, nothing more. Therefore the Glorified Body,that is also eternal, shall never pass because every single one of us has an Eternal Spirit Being that will exist eternally in the residence we choose while here on the earth in the Natural (we call it) body.

God created us for Fellowship but when Adam stood there and watched his wife be seduced into eating from the Forbidden Fruit and nothing appeared to change he allowed her to seduce him. Only then did they realize they were naked. And until they grew very evil, God allowed them, in the state of sin, to live nine hundred to nine hundred and sixty-nine years before the body died and went to Abraham's Buxom or into Hell, both being as if in Jail. They were different and were viewable from one another but the Rich Man could not get across the void between them. and then there is the enigma, why did the dead man,naturally and spiritually ask for the water off of a finger tip?

The scriptures teach us the doctrine of men is all wrong and the scriptures, taken in as written by one God, just, shoots holes in your nice and cushy idea of theology. I fear you are going to a leader that does not teach the Bible but rather, just some of the Commentaries.

You see, the Bible Jesus, Paul and Peter taught from is, in the Christian Versions, are the first thirty-nine Books,the Old Testament. The last twenty-seven New Testament, books, can and often must be viewed as God Breathed Life Application Commentaries. If you will purchase a
Chain Linked Version and run some of the chains, even the life of Jesus is Prophesied, particularly the entire fifty-third chapter of Isaiah.

Please do not follow the Charlatans on their journey into the Lake of Fire. God is love but just as you mom and dad loved you, so does the Father in Heaven, only deeper and even the New Testament speaks of the
wrath of God. (Rom 1:28, Prov 11:4, Psa 2:12, Eph 5:6, Rom 2:5, Rev 14:10-11, and John 3:36)

Most likely you will try to inform me that a couple of those verses cannot be applied in this instance but if you will humble yourself and approach the Throne, God will assure you they do and may God bless your inquiry.

 

[PeterJens]

And therein is your major problem with the concept, you are discussing people. The Image of God is eternal and the real person is the Spirit Being God breathed into us. Please think and form a logical and correct theology point here.

God teaches us in;
Isaiah 55:8-9New American Standard Bible (NASB)
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” declares the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways
And My thoughts than your thoughts.
(Thanks to the Bible Gateway)
God has never been a man before the Holy Spirit of God planted the seed containing the ever lasting seed of Jesus in Mary. Yet from before time began, the Son of God has been and in Eternity, He always will be. That is the Image of God, not these puny seventy year containers, they are the envelope that contains the Spirit, nothing more. Therefore the Glorified Body,that is also eternal, shall never pass because every single one of us has an Eternal Spirit Being that will exist eternally in the residence we choose while here on the earth in the Natural (we call it) body.

God created us for Fellowship but when Adam stood there and watched his wife be seduced into eating from the Forbidden Fruit and nothing appeared to change he allowed her to seduce him. Only then did they realize they were naked. And until they grew very evil, God allowed them, in the state of sin, to live nine hundred to nine hundred and sixty-nine years before the body died and went to Abraham's Buxom or into Hell, both being as if in Jail. They were different and were viewable from one another but the Rich Man could not get across the void between them. and then there is the enigma, why did the dead man,naturally and spiritually ask for the water off of a finger tip?

The scriptures teach us the doctrine of men is all wrong and the scriptures, taken in as written by one God, just, shoots holes in your nice and cushy idea of theology. I fear you are going to a leader that does not teach the Bible but rather, just some of the Commentaries.

You see, the Bible Jesus, Paul and Peter taught from is, in the Christian Versions, are the first thirty-nine Books,the Old Testament. The last twenty-seven New Testament, books, can and often must be viewed as God Breathed Life Application Commentaries. If you will purchase a
Chain Linked Version and run some of the chains, even the life of Jesus is Prophesied, particularly the entire fifty-third chapter of Isaiah.

Please do not follow the Charlatans on their journey into the Lake of Fire. God is love but just as you mom and dad loved you, so does the Father in Heaven, only deeper and even the New Testament speaks of the
wrath of God. (Rom 1:28, Prov 11:4, Psa 2:12, Eph 5:6, Rom 2:5, Rev 14:10-11, and John 3:36)

Most likely you will try to inform me that a couple of those verses cannot be applied in this instance but if you will humble yourself and approach the Throne, God will assure you they do and may God bless your inquiry.

You appear to be saying we are like God. To extend this a little further, we are "gods", eternal beings
with a home either in punishment or with the Father.

The story of Adam and Eve seems to contradict this idea.
They were given a choice. Eat of the tree of knowledge of Good and Evil and die or abide with God in
trust. They chose to die, which suggests they were not eternal, in the sense it was impossible for them
to die, or else the statement "you will die" was not true.

So linking Adam and being made in Gods image to being eternal beings seems flawed by this fact.
Now Gods answer to Adam after eating from the tree of knowledge was to stop them becoming
eternal or to quote

He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.
Gen 3:22

Now I have wondered what God meant by being made in His image, until I realised man fundamentally
loves and is hurt because this love is not returned which leads to hardness of heart and sin.
So I see the logic which you are proposing but scripture seems not to support it.

 

[PeterJens]

Please do not follow the Charlatans on their journey into the Lake of Fire. God is love but just as you mom and dad loved you, so does the Father in Heaven, only deeper and even the New Testament speaks of the
wrath of God. (Rom 1:28, Prov 11:4, Psa 2:12, Eph 5:6, Rom 2:5, Rev 14:10-11, and John 3:36)

Not sure which Charlatans you are referring to. I have read many people when you look at what they
are saying there is a fundamental flaw in their logical reasoning which takes away their authority.

A for instance is Jesus saying many will call Him Lord, say they did healings, casting out of demons,
prophecy in His name, yet He will say "I never knew you. Depart from me you evil doers"

Now it is easy to claim you know someone and believe you do, but if they confirm it themselves then
it is true. And the whole passage this comes from talks about being wise and following Jesus's words.
When people are disobeying His words, calling them not applicable to them, and confess they are doing
sinful deeds and actions without resolution, yet as evil doers they have no fear they are the ones Jesus
does not know, I would suggest they are deluded. Now charlatans do not take Gods word as their authority
but rather follow their own understanding. So I would respect anyone who can consistently show their position
support in scripture, no matter how much I do not like it or agree with it, because it is me who has the problem
and not them.

 

[artful horizon]

There is no one in Hell at this time. Maybe focus on the positive being we are born again and Hell is not our destiny at all.
John's Book of Revelations chapter 20

 

[th1b.taylor]

You appear to be saying we are like God. To extend this a little further, we are "gods", eternal beings
with a home either in punishment or with the Father.

There you go "interpreting" whnat I said instead of reading it for what it says. And that will send you amiss, every time, before you get started.