The lake of fire - Punishment ie torture or destruction

[FreeGrace]

Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
John 12:25
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Rom 2:7

Saying eternal life is life without end with Christ, is not a difficult idea to understand.
Life that does not end in death is "eternal" "forever" life. Eternal means forever. Life means life.

Let us take John 12:25 and break the sentence down.
Life is the subject. Life as in the act of living. Those who love their life on earth will lose it, ie die, have
life taken away from them
Those who hate their life on earth, in this world will keep it, "life", for eternity.

Now it appears to me conceptually some take the term "eternal life" and make it something different
from life in eternity.

Belief does not have to be continuous. So let me think of analogy.
I believe a rope will hold my weight as I swing across a deep valley. I must land and take off the rope on
the other side to be saved. Now I have faith for a time that the rope will work, but never have to swing
across. The time comes for me to swing across, and I have lost my faith, so cannot, so will perish.
Yes while I believed I was saved, because when the time came, I would trust and be saved.
But without faith in that time, the faith I had for a time has no value, because only when it becomes real
does it matter.

Therefore, my dear brothers and sisters, stand firm. Let nothing move you. Always give yourselves fully to the work of the Lord, because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in vain.
1 cor 15:58

Any argument has its opposite implication. If one behaviour means things are not it vain, the other means
it is all pointless. Let the reader draw which is which, because I have learnt, this is a spiritual dimension of
reality, and those who believe all are saved, believe just stating staying in faith is an evil lie. It is odd to me
how some can derive no obvious opposite implications from what Paul writes, but condemn believing faithful
believers as evil who actually follow Jesus. And nothing I write will make any difference to them, because they
have heard it all before, lol. Wise teachers, not.

If this is a response to my post, I have no idea what points are being addressed? Could you please take it point by point if there is disagreement?

This is part of your post:
"Why should we stand firm? Because only if we abide are we saved and the labor is not in vain.
If salvation is just a spark in the pan.
1. The sower and the seed. If any plant grows, it produces seed worthy of harvest
2. Standing firm is irrelevant, you are saved, because nothing can ever be in vain
3. Believe in Jesus, but betray and trample on Him afterwards, because He forgives you and will welcome
you home to a house you despise."

If one must "abide are we saved", as you've just said, then one is saved by their own efforts of abiding. I reject such a theology, since the Bible is very clear that we "are saved by grace through faith, and not of works". Eph 2:8,9

Your claim is unsupported by Scripture. In fact, it is refuted directly by Scripture.

The 3 points following your claim are at the least, unclear.

Re: #1, who says so? Scripture? If so, where, specifically? In fact, seed #2 and #3 BOTH grew into plants, but didn't produce a harvest. So pont #1 is refuted directly by Scripture.

Re: #2, the statement doesn't make sense. Please re-word or re-phrase.
Re: #3, making up hateful and obnoxious statements doesn't change the grace of God. We're saved by grace, not by works. Eph 2:8,9

Jesus made the point that those who believe HAVE (as in presently possess) eternal life:
John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27.

So, it should be obvious that in order to possess eternal life, one must be given eternal life.

And Jesus then made the point that those He gives eternal life (see verses about possessing eternal life on the basis of faith), shall never perish in John 10:28.

So, when one believes, they are given eternal life by Jesus. And those given eternal life shall never perish.

There is no room for any recipient of eternal life to EVER perish. According to Jesus.

 

[for_his_glory]

Jesus is asked what good things must someone do to be called righteous, and have eternal life.
The answer is

Matthew 19:
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

The first thing Jesus said was to keep His commandments and then listed them. The second was to sell all you have and follow Him, but this sadden the rich man for he had much, but it is possible that he never helped anyone in need or maybe just gave a little. The point I want to make is do we keep His commandments just because He said to do this and the same with selling all to follow him or are we doing all this just to keep from being cast into the lake of fire.

 

[PeterJens]

If this is a response to my post, I have no idea what points are being addressed? Could you please take it point by point if there is disagreement?

This is part of your post:
"Why should we stand firm? Because only if we abide are we saved and the labor is not in vain.
If salvation is just a spark in the pan.
1. The sower and the seed. If any plant grows, it produces seed worthy of harvest
2. Standing firm is irrelevant, you are saved, because nothing can ever be in vain
3. Believe in Jesus, but betray and trample on Him afterwards, because He forgives you and will welcome
you home to a house you despise."

If one must "abide are we saved", as you've just said, then one is saved by their own efforts of abiding. I reject such a theology, since the Bible is very clear that we "are saved by grace through faith, and not of works". Eph 2:8,9

Your claim is unsupported by Scripture. In fact, it is refuted directly by Scripture.

The 3 points following your claim are at the least, unclear.

Re: #1, who says so? Scripture? If so, where, specifically? In fact, seed #2 and #3 BOTH grew into plants, but didn't produce a harvest. So pont #1 is refuted directly by Scripture.

Re: #2, the statement doesn't make sense. Please re-word or re-phrase.
Re: #3, making up hateful and obnoxious statements doesn't change the grace of God. We're saved by grace, not by works. Eph 2:8,9

Jesus made the point that those who believe HAVE (as in presently possess) eternal life:
John 3:15,16, 36, 5:24, 6:47, 11:25-27.

So, it should be obvious that in order to possess eternal life, one must be given eternal life.

And Jesus then made the point that those He gives eternal life (see verses about possessing eternal life on the basis of faith), shall never perish in John 10:28.

So, when one believes, they are given eternal life by Jesus. And those given eternal life shall never perish.

There is no room for any recipient of eternal life to EVER perish. According to Jesus.

My friend. You have said I am making up hateful and obnoxious statements. I apologize if you do not understand I am quoting scripture, almost word for word.

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
Heb 6:4-8

Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Matt 13:5-6
The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
Matt 13:20-21

My point is simple. If walking in the Kingdom is merely coming to faith, then Jesus's description is wrong. Falling away does not matter because you are saved. No Jesus goes on to say :-
But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
Matt 13:23
These are the saved, who hear the word, understand it, abide in it, and reproduce the very words to bring a crop in other peoples lives.

And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain.
1 cor 15:14
Do all things without grumbling or disputing, that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world, 16 holding fast to the word of life, so that in the day of Christ I may be proud that I did not run in vain or labor in vain.
Phil 2:14-15
The connection above is simple. Walk blamelessly, and be innocent, without blemish, holding fast to the word of life.
Now some call this heresy and evil. These people are free to believe what they want but this is not what Paul believed
as he expresses here. It is obvious Paul is saying live a righteous life, empowered by the Holy Spirit or else you have
run in vain, labored in vain. Now this is obvious to me, it is what the words mean, so I find it hard unless the reader
wants to just believe their own opinion and not face what Paul is saying.
Paul is not saying it does not matter if you hold to the word of life or not, you are saved, walk sinfully or righteously,
it does not matter because faith alone matters. It seems some are claiming this.

It is odd to me also to be accused of the following "making up hateful and obnoxious statements"
This is simply not true, I am quoting scripture, as it is written. You can deny scripture, but I am simply called to
share Gods word, it is what Jesus calls being fruitful, it is our calling literally. It is the well spring of life, His eternal
words, that will never fade away.

One believer quoted on a forum "All Jesus said is not relevant to believers, as it was only for the Jews."
This is a version of christian faith, but it is not evangelical christianity, it is a different faith that denies the very
Lord they claim is their Saviour, without listening to what He is saying. Finding eternal life is finding Jesus and
love and what love means to our souls and eternity. I do not know what blinds many, but I know the life in which
I walk and the love Christ brought to my life, Amen, Halleluyah

 

[PeterJens]

Matthew 19:
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. 18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, 19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet? 21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me. 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

The first thing Jesus said was to keep His commandments and then listed them. The second was to sell all you have and follow Him, but this sadden the rich man for he had much, but it is possible that he never helped anyone in need or maybe just gave a little. The point I want to make is do we keep His commandments just because He said to do this and the same with selling all to follow him or are we doing all this just to keep from being cast into the lake of fire.

I love this question, Why do we follow Jesus?
I think each believer starts for their own reasons, and Jesus knows how to mold each one.
For me it has always been a warmth and sense of life that pours from Him, that brings light to my soul,
that His wisdom is the wisdom of the creator, teaching me what Life is.

Part of me says, Jesus does not mind why we start, and starting because be recognise the judge is the
judge is the beginning of wisdom. But none of us get far if fear is our motivator and greed for eternity.

 

[FreeGrace]

My friend. You have said I am making up hateful and obnoxious statements. I apologize if you do not understand I am quoting scripture, almost word for word.

It was the silly example that was hateful and obnoxious. That's what those who believe that salvation can be lost do in their defense of their view. They have to come up with the most horrible example of someone who just doesn't deserve God's grace. That's sure how it appears, though more probably their idea is that God's grace just wasn't designed for such horrible people.

So, here is your example that I was referring to:
"3. Believe in Jesus, but betray and trample on Him afterwards, because He forgives you and will welcome
you home to a house you despise."

It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
Heb 6:4-8

There is nothing in this passage about loss of salvation. What is at issue is being brought back to a state of repentance, not losing salvation.

Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
Matt 13:5-6

We know from Luke 8:13 that the seed on rocky soil believed for a while. So they were saved. And in time of temptation, they fell away from their faith. Jesus did NOT say they fell away from their salvation. That must be assumed.

The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
Matt 13:20-21

So? What "lasted"? The actual plant. From a seed. That speaks to regeneration, just as the seed in the weed, or soil #3.

My point is simple. If walking in the Kingdom is merely coming to faith, then Jesus's description is wrong. Falling away does not matter because you are saved. No Jesus goes on to say :-
But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
Matt 13:23

Jesus' point here was that believers are supposed to produce fruit. And soil #4 did.

Paul is not saying it does not matter if you hold to the word of life or not, you are saved, walk sinfully or righteously,
it does not matter because faith alone matters. It seems some are claiming this.

The issue is about what the "matter" is. If one is speaking about salvation, then one's behavior simply does not play ANY part in either gaining salvation, or maintaining salvation. We are saved by grace through faith, not by works. Eph 2:8,9

However, if the "matter" is eternal reward, then one's behavior matters a GREAT DEAL. Reward is based on how one lives their life.
Rev 22:12 - “Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done.
2 Cor 5:10 - For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.
Col 3:
23 Whatever you do, work at it with all your heart, as working for the Lord, not for human masters,
24 since you know that you will receive an inheritance from the Lord as a reward. It is the Lord Christ you are serving.

It is odd to me also to be accused of the following "making up hateful and obnoxious statements"
This is simply not true, I am quoting scripture, as it is written.

It was the example provided. Of course no Scripture is either hateful or obnoxious.

You can deny scripture

I deny your example.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
John 17:3
Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?
Matt 19:16
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
Matt 25:46
Anyone who loves their life will lose it, while anyone who hates their life in this world will keep it for eternal life.
John 12:25
To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
Rom 2:7
Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him.
1 John 3:15
Truth - eternal life in the context above is a gift, of eternity with God,
Some regard the term eternal life like a prize you hang rounso d your neck, not related to who you are and what God
has done in ones life.

John is simply saying if you claim to be walking in communion with God, to have stepped from death to life,
and yet hate ones brother or sister, the truth is not in you.
We are washed clean, made righteous.

Jesus is asked what good things must someone do to be called righteous, and have eternal life.
The answer is

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Matt 19:21

It is odd to me, when people hear Jesus's words about following Him, yet they deny He is calling them
but actually just showing it is impossible to follow Jesus, so you must rely on Jesus to follow Jesus, while
you sin and fail to follow Jesus. That strikes me as nonsense, Either Jesus is leading the way and calling
us to follow or He is doing everything and everyone is saved. If His words say follow, guess what that means,
follow !!!!

Have you sold all your possessions and given them to the poor? Has anyone here done that? No. That is not Jesus' point here and it's descriptive of an event, not prescriptive.

 

[Butch5]

Sodom and Gomorrah inhabitants are now perpetually burning, so what's the point?

You can only suppose that. However, Jude didn't say the inhabitants, he said the cities. That includes more than just people.

 

[PeterJens]

Have you sold all your possessions and given them to the poor? Has anyone here done that? No. That is not Jesus' point here and it's descriptive of an event, not prescriptive.

I want to ask you a question about this dismissive approach.
Many have given up all they have and walked away and started again. Jesus did not say stay in abject
poverty and never own anything. No rather give up the security you know and all the things you rely on
to support you and follow Him and learn from Him.
And yes many have done this, metaphorically and physically.
I left all I knew and had and relied on Christ and the generosity of others to serve Him.
And this is liberating because you are saying do I have value in the eyes of another, not I can be
independent and I do not care how they interact with me.

And I can truly say the experience was liberating, and made me say, I do not need wealth or things to
define my value or the gifts I can share with others. I think this is what Jesus was getting at.
Where is your trust and have you laid all before Him.

 

[PeterJens]

There is nothing in this passage about loss of salvation. What is at issue is being brought back to a state of repentance, not losing salvation.

I think this summarises our different theologies.
This approach pictures salvation is a thing one possess separate from oneself, that mystically makes one a child of God.
For me this summarises religion and its failure. It is at the core of Jesus's criticism of the people who said they were
Abrahams children yet denied God himself.
Now what is illuminating to me is along with this approach is a denial Jesus's words are life, and sustinance for the people
of God.
What we are really talking about is being a slave to love or a slave to selfishness and domination.
Paul says we are slaves to righteousness
"having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness."
Rom 6:18

If as a follower of Christ one has embraced love and all its implications of self sacrifice, meeting needs,
caring and reaching out to others, then this just flows from ones heart.
If this is distant, a foreign language, then there is still much to discover in Christ.
Now unfortunately this is not a point of discussion or viewpoint but experience.

When someone says Jesus meant those who fall away from persecution are still saved, it is a viewpoint but with no
scriptural support. The point about the Kingdom, is it is eternal and does not change, it is the ultimate reality.
Tasting it brings this reality to focus, to lose this reality is to walk away from the Kingdom. If one wants in one mind
to invent words that say no they fell away but are still ok, better than sinners, pulled from the fire, yet this is
what is written,

For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Heb 10:26-31

I could have written this myself. The subject is about sinning or loving righteously. If one claims to be saved yet
continues in the way of sin, it will destroy ones very soul and standing.

The only way to counter such words is to devalue them and make sin not an issue. Except sin is why Jesus died,
and repentance and faith in the cross the road to salvation. What has made me pause is to see "believers" pouring
out words like hatred, obnoxious etc about examples which scripture itself creates.

What is also obvious is though people often claim one member should not pour scorn on another, this appears to
be doing exactly that. Let me put scorn in a real context, scriptural one.
"For you are like whitewashed tombs, which outwardly appear beautiful, but within are full of dead people's bones and all uncleanness."
Matt 23:27

In the last time there will be scoffers, following their own ungodly passions.
Jude 1:18

Many have come out of divorce, adultery, sexual immorality and desire to deny there are any problems
and righteous walking has anything to do with Jesus and His ways. Judes condemnation is very accurate.

 

[PeterJens]

It was the silly example that was hateful and obnoxious..

There is a problem here. Hate........obnoxious..........
These are two things I do not recognise.

Jesus said "Obey", "follow", "love"

When those who repeat, and I want to emphasis the words, repeat Jesus's words are hateful and obnoxious,
these people do not love Jesus and are not listening or following Him.

I am not saying that individual is or is not doing this, it is up to others to make that judgement call.
The enemies of Jesus will always oppose His words and treat the words of life as if they are the words of death.
And for them this is obviously a reality. But that is testimony enough of where spiritually they are, and they will
hate and persecute all who stand by Jesus's words and testimony as it has always been. I would expect nothing
else, yet honestly, it is still difficult for a simple believer to understand how sin can grab hold of someones soul
so that they deny what is obvious in the testimony Christ brought to earth. Sinners love sin and want to abide in
it and hide it from others, even when it destroys them.

And the group are everywhere in the church and will condemn "legalists" as evil and the cause for the failure of
the gospel and call for churches to expel them. But it has always been so, because righteousness and holiness
always makes sinners uncomfortable, and asks something they cannot answer.
Jesus put it like this

And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
John 3:19

 

[FreeGrace]

I think this summarises our different theologies.
This approach pictures salvation is a thing one possess separate from oneself, that mystically makes one a child of God.

Wow. This so badly fails to understand what I've posted.

First, salvation and eternal life are inseparable. They are synonymous. And eternal life is not a "thing" any more than physical life is a "thing". It's one's very existence.

Second, there is nothing mystical about becoming a child of God. Here are the verses about how to become a child of God:
John 1:12 - Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Gal 3:26 - So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith,

For me this summarises religion and its failure.

I invite you to evaluate the reason your view of my theology so badly missed the mark.

What should be obvious to any believer in Christ is that my views are definitely NOT religion.

Many have come out of divorce, adultery, sexual immorality and desire to deny there are any problems
and righteous walking has anything to do with Jesus and His ways.

And such people are idiots.

I'm disappointed that even with encouragement, there is no actual interaction with my posts. Only when one addresses the points of others can there be true dialogue.

I actually address your points. It seems your responses to my posts is just more unexplained verses/passages with more opinion/commentary.

So I see no reason to comment about all your comments.

Your posts appear more as monologue than dialogue. Can we have a dialogue?

 

[Papa Zoom]

1 John 3:15
Truth - eternal life in the context above is a gift, of eternity with God,
Some regard the term eternal life like a prize you hang rounso d your neck, not related to who you are and what God
has done in ones life.

John is simply saying if you claim to be walking in communion with God, to have stepped from death to life,
and yet hate ones brother or sister, the truth is not in you.
We are washed clean, made righteous.

Jesus is asked what good things must someone do to be called righteous, and have eternal life.
The answer is

Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” Matt 19:21

I wasn't trying to be dismissive. I was trying to make a point. It seems you are saying Jesus' answer is prescriptive. It cannot be. It's unique to a particular person. The answer to the question of what good things a person must do to be called righteous and have eternal life is not to sell one's possessions and give to the poor. For the rich young ruler, it was because his wealth was his stumbling block. That's the whole point of what Jesus said for him to do.

The answer to becoming righteous and having eternal life is putting one's faith and hope in Jesus Christ alone.

I want to ask you a question about this dismissive approach.
Many have given up all they have and walked away and started again. Jesus did not say stay in abject
poverty and never own anything. No rather give up the security you know and all the things you rely on
to support you and follow Him and learn from Him.
And yes many have done this, metaphorically and physically.
I left all I knew and had and relied on Christ and the generosity of others to serve Him.
And this is liberating because you are saying do I have value in the eyes of another, not I can be
independent and I do not care how they interact with me.

And I can truly say the experience was liberating, and made me say, I do not need wealth or things to
define my value or the gifts I can share with others. I think this is what Jesus was getting at.
Where is your trust and have you laid all before Him.

I know people who have done just that too. But those actions do not make a person righteous nor do they bring eternal life. Only following Jesus will do that. Our righteousness is like filthy rags and only HIS righteousness will do. Eternal life only comes from God, not anything we do. I think you agree with that. That is all I mean.

The story of the rich young ruler is an object lesson. Just selling your possessions and giving to the poor is meaningless if a person doesn't put their faith in Christ. An atheist can do good works but they account for nothing. We are not saved by works. This is my overarching point.

 

[godsquadgeek]

You can only suppose that. However, Jude didn't say the inhabitants, he said the cities. That includes more than just people.

So you think horses and dogs of Sodom were more wicked that the people with illumination of God? Romans 1.

 

[PeterJens]

Your posts appear more as monologue than dialogue. Can we have a dialogue?

I am slightly jaded my friend.
I believe in dialogue, but taking a verse and saying there is only one interpretation, and other peoples
views are just dismissed, that is not dialogue, it is just contention.

Take the phrase "slaves to righteousness" or "Be Holy for I am Holy" or "We were pure, blameless,"
Now these phrases are direct and simple, but if one opposes their implications, they must be reinterpreted
else one has to change.

I found it strange reading the letters of Paul, when the arguments I used were the very words my brothers
used in scripture. I discussed these points for 2 years with people who felt and believed like you do.
God bless you and them. They were believers who had lost their faith and then regained it in the grace
movement. I was surprised at first, because we claim to have the same Holy Spirit and insight guiding us.
But time and again, love, sacrifice, faithfulness, perseveance, sanctification, holiness, purity, wholeness,
were alien to them, and seemed like a curse. And for some strange reason, I was evil, worse than the worst
sinner, preaching hell and leading people to hell.

So where can there be dialogue in this view of life and love, of the power of the sermon on the mount or its
curse, of eternal torture or eternal bliss.

What I gathered was either one accepts the views as taught by the right teachers, or one is evil.
But the truth is Jesus. He has always been the truth, and the way and the life, following in His footsteps,
doing His work and learning to breadth His will in our lives through the power of the Holy Spirit and love.

What this whole experience teaches me my friend is this
" Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."
John 18:37

It is a simple reality. Christs words are eternal. Deny them you deny Christ.
His people know what I am saying because I am just repeating what He has declared and they know it speaks
to their hearts, because they are chosen. I have met and the Lord used me to bring people to His Holy
presence, and great is His name and ways.

I used to think it was more complicated, but this is what Jesus said
" I have called you friends, for all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to you."
John 15:15
He is our friend, and He has revealed all we need to know. Amen, Halleluyah.

 

[PeterJens]

I wasn't trying to be dismissive. I was trying to make a point. It seems you are saying Jesus' answer is prescriptive. It cannot be. It's unique to a particular person. The answer to the question of what good things a person must do to be called righteous and have eternal life is not to sell one's possessions and give to the poor. For the rich young ruler, it was because his wealth was his stumbling block. That's the whole point of what Jesus said for him to do.

The answer to becoming righteous and having eternal life is putting one's faith and hope in Jesus Christ alone.




I know people who have done just that too. But those actions do not make a person righteous nor do they bring eternal life. Only following Jesus will do that. Our righteousness is like filthy rags and only HIS righteousness will do. Eternal life only comes from God, not anything we do. I think you agree with that. That is all I mean.

The story of the rich young ruler is an object lesson. Just selling your possessions and giving to the poor is meaningless if a person doesn't put their faith in Christ. An atheist can do good works but they account for nothing. We are not saved by works. This is my overarching point.

I agree with you, there are many different perspectives on these verses, and many different ways
it affects us.

I was on a christian missionary ship, and a young group of guys wanted a compass. I had one, but
it was a gift from my Dad many years ago. I did not want to share it, because it might get lost, but I had
to give it to the Lord, and lend it. Emotionally it changed me. I did not know it had a hold on my life until
I gave it up. I would have never said it mattered until that point, when it became a struggle.

This experience has caused be pause for thought. It is easy to assume we have things sussed and everything
is fine, until the Lord asks us to let go, and He helps us see how much small things are embedded in our lives.
So I know many other perspectives are also true, but this is my testimony which I found a blessing.

 

[PeterJens]

Wow. This so badly fails to understand what I've posted.

This phrase brings back memories of many other conversations I have had.
I meant things in a nice glowing light, with this back drop and that implication, etc.
We all bring our own assumptions to a conversation, and there will be many miss-understandings.

I was not speeding, it was just a valid response to an emergency, which is actually every road trip I take
officer.
I deserve all the wealth and respect I have earned, they should quake in fear when I appear, do they not
recognise the gifting and power I represent.

One believer felt that whatever he wrote was imbued with Gods authority and to oppose him was to oppose
the Holy Spirit. Funnily when scripture did not agree with him, and I did not cave in in a flood of repentance
for daring to suggest he was wrong, he was not very happy.
What was his belief, that every word he spoke determined his future. Not a christian belief, but a pagan idea
dressed in christian terms. Like the prophet telling a congregation how happy dead believers were with them
as they followed Jesus. Very odd, a form of spiritualism again in christian form.

So I am not sure of what passes for belief in Jesus until people actually confirm it by agreeing with Jesus's
words. Ironic that, a test of Jesus being ones Lord is by agreeing with what He commands one to do.
Amen.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I agree with you, there are many different perspectives on these verses, and many different ways
it affects us.

I was on a christian missionary ship, and a young group of guys wanted a compass. I had one, but
it was a gift from my Dad many years ago. I did not want to share it, because it might get lost, but I had
to give it to the Lord, and lend it. Emotionally it changed me. I did not know it had a hold on my life until
I gave it up. I would have never said it mattered until that point, when it became a struggle.

This experience has caused be pause for thought. It is easy to assume we have things sussed and everything
is fine, until the Lord asks us to let go, and He helps us see how much small things are embedded in our lives.
So I know many other perspectives are also true, but this is my testimony which I found a blessing.

Things can get a hold of us. I've given up many things but I don't know that I've given up what can't be replaced. I have guitars but they can be replaced. I've given things the Haitian Church needed (musical equipment) that I could do without (and could replace if needed). I've given up a lot of time in youth ministry (15 years) and still am seeking to serve in other ministries (now retired). I've played in music ministry for over 30 years. But I always get more than I give. So it doesn't seem sacrificial. Maybe it is and I just don't recognize it.

 

[PeterJens]

Things can get a hold of us. I've given up many things but I don't know that I've given up what can't be replaced. I have guitars but they can be replaced. I've given things the Haitian Church needed (musical equipment) that I could do without (and could replace if needed). I've given up a lot of time in youth ministry (15 years) and still am seeking to serve in other ministries (now retired). I've played in music ministry for over 30 years. But I always get more than I give. So it doesn't seem sacrificial. Maybe it is and I just don't recognize it.

Amen, to your giving.
This illustrates something in my life which is always difficult to picture.
In coming to the Lord and walking with Him we do things that are our life, part of who we are.
When sharing with those who have not begun or just starting these things are yet to be discovered.

I think this is where we as a body we need to see the life we have and where it is lacking in others.
It is the wealth of love, that those without need to see they can open the door and let Christ in.

I saw a quick video of someone committing suicide, because of the disappointments in their life.
I know the pain and loss these situations are full of, and then this morning I spent time with the Lord
and felt His eternal presence and beauty. And this beauty overwhelms and pushes away the darkness
and despair that wounds, because in eternity, there is love and life, which is here today with us in Christ.
When you hear the prosperity preachers it is as if the wealth of the world is the wealth of Christ in God,
and not the treasure within, and the love and transformation He has done in our hearts.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am slightly jaded my friend.

Well, thanks for the confession.

I believe in dialogue, but taking a verse and saying there is only one interpretation, and other peoples
views are just dismissed, that is not dialogue, it is just contention.

My point was missed again. Which was to actually address the points in my posts, not just 'respond' with another monologue-type post.

Take the phrase "slaves to righteousness" or "Be Holy for I am Holy" or "We were pure, blameless,"
Now these phrases are direct and simple, but if one opposes their implications, they must be reinterpreted
else one has to change.

How does any of this relate to any of my posts?

I found it strange reading the letters of Paul, when the arguments I used were the very words my brothers
used in scripture. I discussed these points for 2 years with people who felt and believed like you do.
God bless you and them. They were believers who had lost their faith and then regained it in the grace
movement. I was surprised at first, because we claim to have the same Holy Spirit and insight guiding us.
But time and again, love, sacrifice, faithfulness, perseveance, sanctification, holiness, purity, wholeness,
were alien to them, and seemed like a curse. And for some strange reason, I was evil, worse than the worst
sinner, preaching hell and leading people to hell.

Again, how does any of this relate to any of my posts?

So where can there be dialogue in this view of life and love, of the power of the sermon on the mount or its
curse, of eternal torture or eternal bliss.

It is becoming clear that dialogue isn't going to happen with you.

 

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"This so badly fails to understand what I've posted."

This phrase brings back memories of many other conversations I have had.
I meant things in a nice glowing light, with this back drop and that implication, etc.
We all bring our own assumptions to a conversation, and there will be many miss-understandings.

Your memories and "many other conversations" has zero relation to my posts. I was hoping for dialogue, but you've been clear that it isn't going to happen.

I was not speeding, it was just a valid response to an emergency, which is actually every road trip I take
officer.

Zero relation to any of my posts.

I deserve all the wealth and respect I have earned, they should quake in fear when I appear, do they not
recognise the gifting and power I represent.

What??!! Whatever "wealth and respect" you've supposedly earned has zero relation to any of my posts, and I have no interest in whoever the "they" may be who are supposed to "quake in fear" when you "appear".

Much less the "gifting and power" that you "represent".