The lake of fire

[stovebolts]

Clearly then, it is Hades, the grave, which is thrown into the lake of fire. And since Jesus said that gehenna, a place of fire, was the final place of the unrighteous, and Revelations says that the lake of fire is the final place of the unrighteous, we can logically conclude that gehenna is the lake of fire, and gehenna is actually Hell proper.

I think geheena and hades have more in common ideologically so the idea that hades is a translation of Sheol aka grave falls short for me. Both Gehenna and hades represent a place where disembodied souls go and both denote conciosness. Also, Jesus wasn't talking about the gates of the grave when he was speaking to his Jewish deciples. He explicitly used the Greek word Hades at the very location where the gates of Hades was said to be. If he meant grave, he would have used the word Sheol.

If Hades meant something different than Sheol when Jesus used that word, then don't you think we need to think a little deeper than textual redaction without the proper textual exegesis?

 

[Willie T]

Isaiah 34:9New International Version (NIV)

9 Edom’s streams will be turned into pitch,
her dust into burning sulfur;
her land will become blazing pitch!

10 It will not be quenched night or day;
its smoke will rise forever.
From generation to generation it will lie desolate;
no one will ever pass through it again.

What does "FOREVER" (or eternal) mean? Think about it. I mean, actually THINK with your head.
If the Bible meant FOREVER (or eternal) to mean never- ending, would we not be able to drive to Edom, to this very day, and find it still burning?

But, you can't do it.

The Bible also speaks of a city that was "cast down to hell". However, we still gaze upon its ruins sitting right there on the surface of the desert to this very day.

When are we ever going to grow out of being frightened by the Boogey Man, like little children, and learn that the Bible is full of poetic metaphors?

 

[Willie T]

I think geheena and hades have more in common ideologically so the idea that hades is a translation of Sheol aka grave falls short for me. Both Gehenna and hades represent a place where disembodied souls go and both denote conciosness. Also, Jesus wasn't talking about the gates of the grave when he was speaking to his Jewish deciples. He explicitly used the Greek word Hades at the very location where the gates of Hades was said to be. If he meant grave, he would have used the word Sheol.

If Hades meant something different than Sheol when Jesus used that word, then don't you think we need to think a little deeper than textual redaction without the proper textual exegesis?

Uh, Jesus probably didn't use either word, since he spoke Aramaic. (Sheol is Hebrew for grave, and Hades is the same thing in the Greek language.)

 

[Free]

I see. Then, you also realize that the word hell itself is not found within the original text anywhere. Actually, the word hell is simply the word used to translate the original texts. As you've noted, there are differences between the word Hades and the word Geheena. If this is true, then how big a difference is there when we substitute the original words with a translation that uses Norse mythology and ideology to describe a Jewish or Greek ideology?

Well, there really is nothing wrong with using an English word to translate gehenna, but the issue is still the same if translators were to keep Gehenna as some do, correctly, keep Hades.

I think geheena and hades have more in common ideologically so the idea that hades is a translation of Sheol aka grave falls short for me. Both Gehenna and hades represent a place where disembodied souls go and both denote conciosness. Also, Jesus wasn't talking about the gates of the grave when he was speaking to his Jewish deciples. He explicitly used the Greek word Hades at the very location where the gates of Hades was said to be. If he meant grave, he would have used the word Sheol.

If Hades meant something different than Sheol when Jesus used that word, then don't you think we need to think a little deeper than textual redaction without the proper textual exegesis?

That's a fairly big "if". I have given one passage where Luke uses Hades in place of Sheol in quoting the OT. We see in Jesus' use of Hades that it is where the Rich Man went after he died and was buried. Given that that doesn't seem to be in reference to the final destination but rather a temporary place of the dead, aka, the grave, it is quite different than when Jesus uses Gehenna, a place where at all costs one does not want to go.

Also given that Jesus uses language that strongly implies Gehenna is the final place of the unrighteous, as well as a place of fire and torment, it is quite logical to conclude that the lake of fire and Gehenna are one and the same.

 

[Willie T]

Well, all of this is fine if all we are doing is reading with the prior intent to simply find a "location" described..... which I don't believe was often the meanings of most verses.

For instance: If someone said that a speeder in a certain town known for speed traps was "in a world of deep do-do if clocked by the police"........... Would you have any valid reason to, then, believe that a planet made of fecal matter existed somewhere, and that these speeders were going to be transported to it?

Please don't make the mistake of thinking that the authors of the Bible were no more than dull Technical Manual writers, and did not pen their works with just as much literary flair and dramatic symbolism as any other author. Remember.... this was the age of great story tellers. They had no TV nor radio. This kind of metaphoric language was the norm in their culture and writings. They were used to it, and expected it. And that is why Jesus used it all the time.

 

[DRS81]

Revelation 20
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
.

Wouldn't the correct translation be 'and death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire'? Hades is the abode of the dead, the grave which represents death. Hades is not hell.

 

[agua.]

I think geheena and hades have more in common ideologically so the idea that hades is a translation of Sheol aka grave falls short for me. Both Gehenna and hades represent a place where disembodied souls go and both denote conciosness. Also, Jesus wasn't talking about the gates of the grave when he was speaking to his Jewish deciples. He explicitly used the Greek word Hades at the very location where the gates of Hades was said to be. If he meant grave, he would have used the word Sheol.

If Hades meant something different than Sheol when Jesus used that word, then don't you think we need to think a little deeper than textual redaction without the proper textual exegesis?

If he meant grave, he would have used the word Sheol.

Mat 16:18-21 KJV And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (20) Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. (21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Notice after Jesus told disciples that the "gates of Hades won't prevail against it ( ie. the Church )" He then described how He would be killed and resurrected. ie. the grave would not stop Him.

 

[turnorburn]

There is no boogey man Willie.. do you think hell is a poetic metaphor.. the rich man doesn't think so and neither does Jesus

Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This is the one to be feared..

tob

 

[Willie T]

There is no boogey man Willie.. do you think hell is a poetic metaphor.. the rich man doesn't think so and neither does Jesus

Hebrews 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

This is the one to be feared..

tob

I'm sorry, but, "Yes", we (the collective church) have worked hard to create a Boogey Man, and he is preached from our pulpits far more than the love of God is taught.

 

[turnorburn]

i know Willie that's why preachers stopped preaching about hell its not publicly correct.. the world hates Jesus Willie even though He loves us yet

tob

 

[BigSodaExposer]

Hades is another Greek term that was translated "hell" in the King James Version. But it is distinct from the lake of fire, the final doom of unbelievers. Hades is the place where the unrighteous go at the moment of death.

Jesus story of the rich man Lazarus in Luke 16 shows that Hades is a place of conscious suffering and torment. But right now it is more of a "holding cell" for unbelievers until their final judgment at the Great White Throne. That's why in Revelation 20:14, Hades as a place that holds condemned sinners is also said to be thrown into the lake of fire.

God did everything necessary to keep anyone from going to hell when he gave Jesus Christ as the substitute for the sins of the world. He has an "anti-hell" vaccine, the blood of Christ, available to all who trust him alone for salvation and eternal life.

I was in that holding cell. Very dark, very desolate.

 

[KevinK]

I was in that holding cell. Very dark, very desolate.

You had a Hellish experience?

 

[stovebolts]

Uh, Jesus probably didn't use either word, since he spoke Aramaic. (Sheol is Hebrew for grave, and Hades is the same thing in the Greek language.)

Hi Willie,
I don't really want to get into linguistics, because it's not really an area I'm adroit in. However, Aramaic, the way I understand it is a semitic language common with the ANE (ancient near east). As such, it is the foundation in which the Hebrew language was constructed from and that which a sections of the OT and NT were written in. As it pertains to Jesus, select writings in the OT / NT, you can't really say there was a significant difference between Aramaic and Hebrew.

Furthermore, Kione Greek was the common language, so it would not be uncommon for Jews to be fluent in both Aramaic and Greek. Actually, more Jews knew Greek and didn't know Aramaic (Hebrew) which is why the Septuagint was so popular. This can be seen by the writer of the book of Hebrews as it references the Septuagint, not the Hebrew version of the Bible. This can also be validated by the Jewish writers who complained that their original language was dying and were making a call back to the Hebrew language.

As such, I think a better way to say which I've quoted you as saying would be to state: Jesus would have been fluent in both Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. He would have also been aware of both Hebrew and Greek culture.

This would mean that Jesus understood the Hebrew word Sheol (He would have had the entire Bible memorized verbatim with commentary) and he would have known of the Greek god Hades, who was the brother of Zeus. With a set of 21st century eyes, it's pretty easy to see that there is a vast difference between Sheol and Hades... So to say Sheol is Hades, well... I don't see how you can make that connection unless you completely disregard the cultures and the world Jesus lived in.

Finally, Jesus uses the word Gehenna and he uses the word Hades and I believe those words were accurate. If you haven't, you should do some digging on the location where Jesus said, And the gates of Hades... find out who the patron God was in that area and ask what good little Jewish boys were doing there. finally, dig enough and you'll find that there was a crack in a rock in that very location. I believe it may have been where Hercules was written about? But I'm not sure. Anyway, you will find that it was where the gates of Hades was said to have been. This is why I don't see a problem with Jesus being at that very spot as using the word Hades. Make sense?

 

[stovebolts]

I'm sorry, but, "Yes", we (the collective church) have worked hard to create a Boogey Man, and he is preached from our pulpits far more than the love of God is taught.

They preach from Dante's inferno which was part of the culture in which our bibles were translated... It is where the norse mythology concerning hell, to which both Greek and Aramaic words were translated as...

 

[Willie T]

Hi Willie,
I don't really want to get into linguistics, because it's not really an area I'm adroit in. However, Aramaic, the way I understand it is a semitic language common with the ANE (ancient near east). As such, it is the foundation in which the Hebrew language was constructed from and that which a sections of the OT and NT were written in. As it pertains to Jesus, select writings in the OT / NT, you can't really say there was a significant difference between Aramaic and Hebrew.

Furthermore, Kione Greek was the common language, so it would not be uncommon for Jews to be fluent in both Aramaic and Greek. Actually, more Jews knew Greek and didn't know Aramaic (Hebrew) which is why the Septuagint was so popular. This can be seen by the writer of the book of Hebrews as it references the Septuagint, not the Hebrew version of the Bible. This can also be validated by the Jewish writers who complained that their original language was dying and were making a call back to the Hebrew language.

As such, I think a better way to say which I've quoted you as saying would be to state: Jesus would have been fluent in both Aramaic, Hebrew and Greek. He would have also been aware of both Hebrew and Greek culture.

This would mean that Jesus understood the Hebrew word Sheol (He would have had the entire Bible memorized verbatim with commentary) and he would have known of the Greek god Hades, who was the brother of Zeus. With a set of 21st century eyes, it's pretty easy to see that there is a vast difference between Sheol and Hades... So to say Sheol is Hades, well... I don't see how you can make that connection unless you completely disregard the cultures and the world Jesus lived in.

Finally, Jesus uses the word Gehenna and he uses the word Hades and I believe those words were accurate. If you haven't, you should do some digging on the location where Jesus said, And the gates of Hades... find out who the patron God was in that area and ask what good little Jewish boys were doing there. finally, dig enough and you'll find that there was a crack in a rock in that very location. I believe it may have been where Hercules was written about? But I'm not sure. Anyway, you will find that it was where the gates of Hades was said to have been. This is why I don't see a problem with Jesus being at that very spot as using the word Hades. Make sense?

Yeah, that sounds reasonable enough.

 

[Willie T]

They preach from Dante's inferno which was part of the culture in which our bibles were translated... It is where the norse mythology concerning hell, to which both Greek and Aramaic words were translated as...

Largly, I think they preach from some pretty vivid imaginations, embellishing pure Scripture, more often than not.

 

[stovebolts]

Well, there really is nothing wrong with using an English word to translate gehenna, but the issue is still the same if translators were to keep Gehenna as some do, correctly, keep Hades.

What I am trying to get you to see, is that the word hell is not an english word. It is an old Norse word and derives from Norse mythology which has little to nothing to do with the Jewish ideology behind gehenna. Don't take my word though, do some research on your own.

That's a fairly big "if". I have given one passage where Luke uses Hades in place of Sheol in quoting the OT. We see in Jesus' use of Hades that it is where the Rich Man went after he died and was buried. Given that that doesn't seem to be in reference to the final destination but rather a temporary place of the dead, aka, the grave, it is quite different than when Jesus uses Gehenna, a place where at all costs one does not want to go.

After going back and looking at the two passages you presented, I understand what you're saying. Luke quotes the Septuagint where Hades is used to translate Sheol and Jesus uses the word Hades as a place outside of paradise aka Abraham's Bosom. I suppose the next question is this. How did Jesus view Hades? Did he view it more as "the grave", or did he view it more as a place of torment in line with Greek mythology? I get the idea that it's a little bit of both and context really starts to define his usage.

Also given that Jesus uses language that strongly implies Gehenna is the final place of the unrighteous, as well as a place of fire and torment, it is quite logical to conclude that the lake of fire and Gehenna are one and the same.

Here is where I have an issue. In Jewish thought, Gehenna is a place of purification. Yes, it is painful and it is a place nobody wants to be. It is where one meets the refiners fire. But as such, Gehenna is temporary and nobody is there longer than 365 days according to the Sages. I hate to bring in Catholic doctrine, but this sound like this is where the Catholic idea of Purgatory came from.

I do see how you are making the connection for Gehenna and the lake of fire (btw, according to strongs it's a pond) but I'm not in a place yet where I can simply swap words.

 

[stovebolts]

Mat 16:18-21 KJV And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (20) Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ. (21) From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

Notice after Jesus told disciples that the "gates of Hades won't prevail against it ( ie. the Church )" He then described how He would be killed and resurrected. ie. the grave would not stop Him.

Absolutely. You see, gates are to keep the enemy out... Gates kept a city safe from those trying to siege it. Hades was the realm of the dead, and nothing was going to keep Jesus out. You do know Jesus preached to those in prison after his Crucifixion... This agrees with the Jewish idea of Gehenna were a good Rabbi can snatch bodies out and take them to paradise...and we can snatch those out of the fire because nothing can stop us from spreading the gospel.

 

[stovebolts]

Largly, I think they preach from some pretty vivid imaginations. embellishing pure Scripture, more often than not.

I often agree...

 

[Kathi]

Largly, I think they preach from some pretty vivid imaginations. embellishing pure Scripture, more often than not.

I think we as humans are curious.The unknown is scary.Many want to speculate and put Scripture into their own human thinking.God is much bigger than that and what our human mind can fathom.We as Christians should not even want to wrap our minds around hades or hell.Why?We are not going there.As for those who are it is a tragedy.It is heart breaking but they are in God's hands.