The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?

[stovebolts]

A good Jew will try to interpret Torah properly to live out Torah the way God intended it to be lived out.

A good Jew is one who has died to the Law.

One inwardly.

One who is born of God.

One who has the Spirit of Christ.


JLB

Actually.... one has died to sin and according to the new covenant (Romans 6), the Law will be written on their hearts (Jeremiah 31), not tablets of stone... Their conscience bearing witness to this... even defending it according to Paul (Romans)

A good Jew is more than free to keep all the new moon festivals if he desires and he is more than free to stay away from a BLT sandwich, not have a glass of milk with his steak and kick his feet up and watch tv all day on the Sabbath... Why? Because a good Jew as you've described is under the same grace as us gentiles.

But I still fail to see your point in regard to "You have heard it said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy".

 

[JLB]

Actually.... one has died to sin and according to the new covenant (Romans 6), the Law will be written on their hearts (Jeremiah 31), not tablets of stone... Their conscience bearing witness to this... even defending it according to Paul (Romans)

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.Romans 7:6

The Law that God writes on our heart is His Law, not the law of Moses.

But I don't suspect you will see that since you have already told me Im in my own world on this matter.

The law was added, brother.

God's Eternal Law as seen in the garden and through Abraham is not the Law of Moses given on Sinai, that was added until the Seed should come.

God writes His law on our heart, and in our mind. Not the law of Moses.

But I still fail to see your point in regard to "You have heard it said, Love your neighbor and hate your enemy".

The only way you will see my point is if you do what I asked you to do, and have your son read this verse -

1 "When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girga++++es and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you, 2 and when the Lord your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them. Deuteronomy 7:1-2

If he reads this scripture and says that to utterly destroy these enemies and not show them mercy, is demonstrating love to them, then I will concede that Jesus was teaching His disciples to keep the law of Moses in Matthew 5.

Remember, this is the son in whom you pointed out, that he looked over your shoulder and read the post, and said I hated Jewish people.

Please have him read Deuteronomy 7:1-2 and evaluate whether this was love or hate.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.Romans 7:6

The Law that God writes on our heart is His Law, not the law of Moses.

Ha, sorry but I got a chuckle out of this. I've bolded something that we should take notice of. Pay special attention to what's been underlined. Were we held by the Law, or were we held by sin?

Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Over and over in many of Paul's writings he says just this... we were set free from sin. Why? Romans 6:11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Now then, we have two different lines of thought going on here. I'm chuckling to myself because the Law was given to Moses from God... Thus, they are God's Law. I'd like to also note that the Covenant between Abram and God was a covenant with God, just as the covenant at Mt. Sinai was with God... just like the new covenant is with God.

We are not talking about God's "Law", what we are talking about is God's covenants. This is why Paul says, Romans 8:There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

I would also like to remind you how Paul looked at the Law. Romans 7: What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

and further: 2 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

 

[stovebolts]

Remember, this is the son in whom you pointed out, that he looked over your shoulder and read the post, and said I hated Jewish people.

It's amazing what a child can see that adults fail to see isn't it? I never asked you to concede, what I asked you to do is have some understanding, yet you won't acknowledge any other thought other than your own.

It appears you are beyond reason and you do not wish any meaningful dialog except your own agenda. How then is that edifying the Body and in keeping with this sites mission statement?

Honestly, I don't see any further benefit to this thread. That's really too bad.

 

[Elijah674]

Answer: By God through man...especially the authors of the NT. In all the things I've heard from men, I know what is truth and what is not because I have the anointing of the Spirit.

You learned the Truth, because The Spirit led you to this Truth that the New Testament writers penned under the anointing.

Its funny how others can read the same New Testament and all the get is, we are to keep the law of Moses. Some read it and say Paul was a false teacher.

As I recall, it was when you were debating with the Sabbath Keepers about their legalistic approach to keeping the sabbath, and specifically how they thought that keeping the sabbath was more important that loving their neighbor.

Then, by that same standard of measure, you began to evaluate then same approach to those that place the external Church activities such as, reading the bible, singing on the worship team, preaching from the pulpit, cleaning the Church... above the requirement of loving your neighbor.

I don't find the writers of the New testament saying those things, you probably just heard your Pastor teach that to the congregation one Sunday morning. :D

If that is so easily seen in the New testament, why don't we hear everyone teaching this message.

I'm sure Paul probably saw in the law of Moses, something similar when He went to Jerusalem to confront Peter and James about their hypocrisy. :help


JLB

Just who has the Anointing of the Spirit?? We should check to see if it is the right spirit??? And about 7 Day Sabbath Keepers [all being legalist?] The suggestion from this end is that that remark has no truth in it. I believe in keeping the Lords 7 Day Sabbath because of LOVEING HIM! Who in their right mind that LOVES CHRIST would not obey him??????

And just a verse because I reject this as seen in Mark vain worship... [7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctines the commandments of men.
[8] For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
(Moses laws + Sunday keeping)

+ what is still Inspired Truth that is documented in Isa. about the NEW Heaven & the New earth!

[22] For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

So the New Heavens & the New Earth will only have Loving 7th Day Sabbath in it!

--Elijah

Me again:
I find again a good verse in Isa. 65
[17] For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
[18] But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
[19] And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
[20] There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
[21] And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
[22] They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
[23] They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
[24] And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
[25] The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

It is interesting that the same heavens have the saved class having 6 days of work & then will come to worship on His 7th Day Sabbath!

Yet we also find that John goofed being awe struck in Rev. (notice that he did not understand the Angels, + ALL prophets do not know that Jesus is our rest???) But I think not!

Rev. 22:8-9
[8] And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
[9] Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.

--Elijah

PS: But 'i' think that I will just leave this with you all.

 

[JLB]

But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter.Romans 7:6

The Law that God writes on our heart is His Law, not the law of Moses.

Ha, sorry but I got a chuckle out of this. I've bolded something that we should take notice of. Pay special attention to what's been underlined. Were we held by the Law, or were we held by sin?

Romans 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

Over and over in many of Paul's writings he says just this... we were set free from sin. Why? Romans 6:11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

Now then, we have two different lines of thought going on here. I'm chuckling to myself because the Law was given to Moses from God... Thus, they are God's Law. I'd like to also note that the Covenant between Abram and God was a covenant with God, just as the covenant at Mt. Sinai was with God... just like the new covenant is with God.

We are not talking about God's "Law", what we are talking about is God's covenants. This is why Paul says, Romans 8:There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

I would also like to remind you how Paul looked at the Law. Romans 7: What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

and further: 2 So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. Galatians 2:19

If you are alive to the law and the influence of the law and the rules of the law, then you can not live to God.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Remember, this is the son in whom you pointed out, that he looked over your shoulder and read the post, and said I hated Jewish people.

It's amazing what a child can see that adults fail to see isn't it? I never asked you to concede, what I asked you to do is have some understanding, yet you won't acknowledge any other thought other than your own.

It appears you are beyond reason and you do not wish any meaningful dialog except your own agenda. How then is that edifying the Body and in keeping with this sites mission statement?

Honestly, I don't see any further benefit to this thread. That's really too bad.

On the contrary, what I wish for is meaningful dialog.

Encouraging you to get your son involved, as you did before, I had hoped for some.


JLB

 

[stovebolts]

Me again:

Hello again Brother!

You know, I think you were the first person I really met 9 years ago when I joined this forum and I respect you as much today as I did then. Doesn't mean I agree with you on everything you write, but I respect you.

I recall all of the arguments from years past on the 7th day Sabbath and those that oppose of that miss what you say:

believe in keeping the Lords 7 Day Sabbath because of LOVEING HIM!

Isn't that the core of keeping all of his commandments? Keeping a day a week set aside for God, and God's will is a wonderful thing and it shouldn't be made into a bunch of legalistic rules like some of the teachers taught. It should be a day filled with wonder and awe. A time spent with family doing things that draw us closer. You know, if I don't spend time with my wife, I'm not meeting her needs and our relationship gets strained. If I don't spend time with my kids, I'm not going to be the biggest influence in their life when it matters... But I'm never without something that needs to be done that steals this time away from both my wife and kids.

And it is at this point I see the command to keep the Sabbath holy as something for us... Mark 2:27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And if this is what the commandment is about, then maybe I need to really start doing it. I think we all need a day devoted to one another and somehow, I think that pleases God.

 

[JLB]

Isn't that the core of keeping all of his commandments? Keeping a day a week set aside for God, and God's will is a wonderful thing and it shouldn't be made into a bunch of legalistic rules like some of the teachers taught. It should be a day filled with wonder and awe. A time spent with family doing things that draw us closer. You know, if I don't spend time with my wife, I'm not meeting her needs and our relationship gets strained. If I don't spend time with my kids, I'm not going to be the biggest influence in their life when it matters... But I'm never without something that needs to be done that steals this time away from both my wife and kids. And it is at this point I see the command to keep the Sabbath holy as something for us... Mark 2:27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. And if this is what the commandment is about, then maybe I need to really start doing it. I think we all need a day devoted to one another and somehow, I think that pleases God.

Very nicely put.

Well said.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. Galatians 2:19

If you are alive to the law and the influence of the law and the rules of the law, then you can not live to God.


JLB

What does 'alive to the law' mean?

What does Paul say dies when we come to Christ?
(Romans 7:4-5 NASB)

The indoctrination of the church is showing in what you say here.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Since they are the same there is no reason to fear making reference to the law of Moses.

I don't fear in making a reference to the truth.

The Law of God is seen in the [moral] law of Moses, which was added until the Seed...

You're confusing me. How can moral laws be added that you say were already known through oral transmission before Mt. Sinai? And then how can they be taken away if they were before the law of Moses?

What you say is ONLY true of the specific stipulations for temple, priesthood, and sacrifice. IOW, the ceremonial law, not the moral law. This is why it's so very important that one distinguish between the two. Hebrews says the covenant of law that became obsolete and no longer needed is the covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

Let's stay with this verse in the phase of our discussion.

Here are some points that I would like to show from this verse.

• The Law was added to the Covenant of Abraham.
• There were "transgressions" [sin] before the Law.
• It was added until the Seed should come.

If we can agree on these points, then we can discuss these things without going round and around about "doubtful things". We agree on much so this should be easy.

By saying added, The Holy Spirit is indicating the Law was a part of something else.

By saying until, The Holy Spirit is indicating the Law was temporary.


JLB

Can't you see that what you're arguing for in regard to the law is the WAY of the law of Moses being added, not the requirements of the law of Moses themselves.

The Bible says we fulfill the requirements of the law of Moses through our faith (Romans 13:9-10 NASB), but the church teaches that we abolish the requirements of the law of Moses by our faith. Even Jesus said he came to fulfill the law of Moses, not abolish it. So why do we teach believers that the law was abolished?

I don't think the church knows what it means to be 'under the law'. It surely doesn't mean to be obligated to it's moral requirements, because we most certainly are. You can only be 'under the law' if your flesh is still alive. Crucified people aren't under the law anymore. And because they're not under the law anymore they can now fulfill the requirements of the law. Sound like double talk? To a church indoctrinated by an erroneous understanding of law, yes. But to those who read their Bible, it makes perfect sense.

Not being under the law DOESN'T mean you don't have to do what it commands the people of God to do. It means you're not under the power of the law to hold you bound to your sin nature, like a woman married to a husband, the law of Moses acting as the marriage license that keeps you in that relationship between you and sinful flesh. We have been set free from the law in that regard. (Romans 7:1-6 NASB)

 

[farouk]

The context of Galatians is 'justification'--the perfection of justification. No righteous work makes a person perfectly just before God. That's what he's addressing in Galatians, not law keeping itself.

It would be impossible for Paul to argue against the law keeping he himself does except when law keeping is for the purpose of justification. That law keeping he would argue against--and does. But not any and all law keeping. That would make him a really big hypocrite.

Galatians 2.19.

I'm dead to the law.

 

[JLB]

You're confusing me. How can moral laws be added that you say were already known through oral transmission before Mt. Sinai? And then how can they be taken away if they were before the law of Moses?

What you say is ONLY true of the specific stipulations for temple, priesthood, and sacrifice. IOW, the ceremonial law, not the moral law. This is why it's so very important that one distinguish between the two. Hebrews says the covenant of law that became obsolete and no longer needed is the covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

Let's stay with this verse in the phase of our discussion.

Here are some points that I would like to show from this verse.

• The Law was added to the Covenant of Abraham.
• There were "transgressions" [sin] before the Law.
• It was added until the Seed should come.

If we can agree on these points, then we can discuss these things without going round and around about "doubtful things". We agree on much so this should be easy.

By saying added, The Holy Spirit is indicating the Law was a part of something else.

By saying until, The Holy Spirit is indicating the Law was temporary.


JLB

Can't you see that what you're arguing for in regard to the law is the WAY of the law of Moses being added, not the requirements of the law of Moses themselves.

The Bible says we fulfill the requirements of the law of Moses through our faith (Romans 13:9-10 NASB), but the church teaches that we abolish the requirements of the law of Moses by our faith. Even Jesus said he came to fulfill the law of Moses, not abolish it. So why do we teach believers that the law was abolished?

I don't think the church knows what it means to be 'under the law'. It surely doesn't mean to be obligated to it's moral requirements, because we most certainly are. You can only be 'under the law' if your flesh is still alive. Crucified people aren't under the law anymore. And because they're not under the law anymore they can now fulfill the requirements of the law. Sound like double talk? To a church indoctrinated by an erroneous understanding of law, yes. But to those who read their Bible, it makes perfect sense.

Not being under the law DOESN'T mean you don't have to do what it commands the people of God to do. It means you're not under the power of the law to hold you bound to your sin nature, like a woman married to a husband, the law of Moses acting as the marriage license that keeps you in that relationship between you and sinful flesh. We have been set free from the law in that regard. (Romans 7:1-6 NASB)

The verse we are discussing is not about us, and our "way" of keeping the requirements of the Law.

The elements of this scripture contain:

- the law

- the Seed

The law was added.

Until the Seed should come.

Either we conclude the law is still in effect or it is not.

By saying added, the Holy Spirit is indicating the the is a part of something else.

The law is a part, not the whole.

By saying until, the Holy Spirit is indicating the law that was added to to something else is temporary.

That is basically all there is to discuss.

Please comment honestly brother.

JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The context of Galatians is 'justification'--the perfection of justification. No righteous work makes a person perfectly just before God. That's what he's addressing in Galatians, not law keeping itself.

It would be impossible for Paul to argue against the law keeping he himself does except when law keeping is for the purpose of justification. That law keeping he would argue against--and does. But not any and all law keeping. That would make him a really big hypocrite.

Galatians 2.19.

I'm dead to the law.

If you are in Christ you are dead to the law's authority to hold you fast in the power of the sin nature. That's what you have been set free from. You are not dead to the requirements of the law. They get upheld, not abolished, by your faith in Christ. But the church has erroneously understood 'dead to the law' to mean 'I don't have to keep the law anymore'. I don't blame the flock. I blame the godless, misguided, spiritless leadership that saddled the church with that ridiculous understanding.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You're confusing me. How can moral laws be added that you say were already known through oral transmission before Mt. Sinai? And then how can they be taken away if they were before the law of Moses?

What you say is ONLY true of the specific stipulations for temple, priesthood, and sacrifice. IOW, the ceremonial law, not the moral law. This is why it's so very important that one distinguish between the two. Hebrews says the covenant of law that became obsolete and no longer needed is the covenant of temple, priesthood, and sacrifice.

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

Let's stay with this verse in the phase of our discussion.

Here are some points that I would like to show from this verse.

• The Law was added to the Covenant of Abraham.
• There were "transgressions" [sin] before the Law.
• It was added until the Seed should come.

If we can agree on these points, then we can discuss these things without going round and around about "doubtful things". We agree on much so this should be easy.

By saying added, The Holy Spirit is indicating the Law was a part of something else.

By saying until, The Holy Spirit is indicating the Law was temporary.


JLB

Can't you see that what you're arguing for in regard to the law is the WAY of the law of Moses being added, not the requirements of the law of Moses themselves.

The Bible says we fulfill the requirements of the law of Moses through our faith (Romans 13:9-10 NASB), but the church teaches that we abolish the requirements of the law of Moses by our faith. Even Jesus said he came to fulfill the law of Moses, not abolish it. So why do we teach believers that the law was abolished?

I don't think the church knows what it means to be 'under the law'. It surely doesn't mean to be obligated to it's moral requirements, because we most certainly are. You can only be 'under the law' if your flesh is still alive. Crucified people aren't under the law anymore. And because they're not under the law anymore they can now fulfill the requirements of the law. Sound like double talk? To a church indoctrinated by an erroneous understanding of law, yes. But to those who read their Bible, it makes perfect sense.

Not being under the law DOESN'T mean you don't have to do what it commands the people of God to do. It means you're not under the power of the law to hold you bound to your sin nature, like a woman married to a husband, the law of Moses acting as the marriage license that keeps you in that relationship between you and sinful flesh. We have been set free from the law in that regard. (Romans 7:1-6 NASB)

The verse we are discussing is not about us, and our "way" of keeping the requirements of the Law.

The elements of this scripture contain:

- the law

- the Seed

The law was added.

Until the Seed should come.

Either we conclude the law is still in effect or it is not.

By saying added, the Holy Spirit is indicating the the is a part of something else.

The law is a part, not the whole.

By saying until, the Holy Spirit is indicating the law that was added to to something else is temporary.

That is basically all there is to discuss.

Please comment honestly brother.

JLB

The WAY of the written word is what was added temporarily. It's absurd, even dishonest, to say 'don't steal, and 'don't covet' were added and then taken away because they were temporary (even you, JLB, acknowlege that those requirements were known before Moses).

Everybody who thinks 'do not commit adultery' was taken away raise your hand. If you agree that it was NOT taken away explain what was taken away.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Either we conclude the law is still in effect or it is not.

The requirements of the law are still in effect. Jesus plainly said he did NOT come to abolish them, he came to fulfill them. Faith FULFILLS the requirements of the law, not abolishes them. Our faith in Christ fulfills the ceremonial law. Our faith in Christ working through love fulfills the moral law. Both together FULFILL the law of Moses, not abolishes it. But somewhere along the line the church started saying the law is abolished in Christ, in clear defiance of plainly worded scripture.

What is no longer in effect is the WAY of the law--mere written words, and their power to condemn you and keep you in your sins, not liberate you from violations of the law.

"6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code." (Romans 7:6 NIV)

"28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
31 Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law." (Romans 3:28,31 NIV)

 

[stovebolts]

If you are in Christ you are dead to the law's authority to hold you fast in the power of the sin nature. That's what you have been set free from. You are not dead to the requirements of the law. They get upheld, not abolished, by your faith in Christ. But the church has erroneously understood 'dead to the law' to mean 'I don't have to keep the law anymore'. I don't blame the flock. I blame the godless, misguided, spiritless leadership that saddled the church with that ridiculous understanding.

I agree with this. The ministry of Jesus was a ministry of repentance.. a call to living the way God would have us live. Grace isn't a licence to sin.

Most people brush right past this verse with little thought... John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Think about this in light of the law and let me know your thoughts Jethro. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (I believe Paul's rant prior to this is in regard to all the knowledge and navigation required by the law to live in accordance with the law. As Jesus rightly shows in Matthew 5 through 7, it is impossible to keep the law)

The way I see it, the law was given to Moses (It was written by God himself) so that we would know what sin is and within the law, it showed how atonement was made for said sin so we wouldn't be left with guilt and sorrow. Christ is our atonement as part of the new covenant and with this new covenant, we are no longer condemned by the law when we do wrong because Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If you are in Christ you are dead to the law's authority to hold you fast in the power of the sin nature. That's what you have been set free from. You are not dead to the requirements of the law. They get upheld, not abolished, by your faith in Christ. But the church has erroneously understood 'dead to the law' to mean 'I don't have to keep the law anymore'. I don't blame the flock. I blame the godless, misguided, spiritless leadership that saddled the church with that ridiculous understanding.

I agree with this. The ministry of Jesus was a ministry of repentance.. a call to living the way God would have us live. Grace isn't a licence to sin.

Most people brush right past this verse with little thought... John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Think about this in light of the law and let me know your thoughts Jethro. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. (I believe Paul's rant prior to this is in regard to all the knowledge and navigation required by the law to live in accordance with the law. As Jesus rightly shows in Matthew 5 through 7, it is impossible to keep the law)

The way I see it, the law was given to Moses (It was written by God himself) so that we would know what sin is and within the law, it showed how atonement was made for said sin so we wouldn't be left with guilt and sorrow. Christ is our atonement as part of the new covenant and with this new covenant, we are no longer condemned by the law when we do wrong because Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.

My thoughts are that you are EXACTLY in the vein of thought I was speaking in (Romans 8:1-2). Christ set us free from the condemnation of the law, not the requirements of the law.

For the unbelieving and disobedient the law is the law of sin and death. For the obedient believer, steadfastly clinging to Christ, the law is the law of liberty. What makes the difference is whether or not the sin nature has died. The sin nature, and obedience to him, is what makes the law the law of sin and death. The Spirit, and obedience to Him, is what makes the law--the very same law--the law of liberty.

Take you pick folks. Which will the law be to you?

 

[Deborah13]

<sup class="versenum">12 </sup>that ye were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world;
<sup class="versenum">13 </sup>and now, in Christ Jesus, ye being once afar off became nigh in the blood of the Christ,
<sup class="versenum">14 </sup>for he is our peace, who did make both one, and the middle wall of the enclosure did break down,
<sup class="versenum">15 </sup>the enmity in his flesh, the law of the commands in ordinances having done away, that the two he might create in himself into one new man, making peace,
<sup class="versenum">16 </sup>and might reconcile both in one body to God through the cross, having slain the enmity in it,
<sup class="versenum">17 </sup>and having come, he did proclaim good news -- peace to you -- the far-off and the nigh,

imo

God's people no longer draw near to God by doings, by obeying laws, rituals, or even good works.
God's people draw near to God through faith in the Son and His works.
Doing this causes one to obey and do good works.

Faith in the Law and good works will not cause one to be holy as He is holy.

 

[stovebolts]

[MENTION=88699]Jethro Bodine[/MENTION] and [MENTION=93058]Deborah13[/MENTION]

I agree with you both with the addition that when my child was younger, he followed me around and did what I did because he wanted to be like me. He did it because he loved me.

He is older now and on mission trip when they were doing yard work for somebody, one of the counselors told him, "Your just like your dad"

Amazing how that works huh?