Jethro Bodine
Member
As a Christian, are you relieved from your responsibility to not commit adultery, or not to steal, or not to covet when you don't feel like obeying those things?
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Are you taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?
- Thread starter YosefHayim
- Start date
These constant battles over the law are baffling...
Which group of laws are we speaking of....
The 10 come to mind first
The the zillion given to the Levits
Do we not call the commands of Christ laws because He uses ( ot the translator do) the commandment?.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jesus does not say zero laws matter He very plainly say if you treat each other with love kinda covers the rest .. Kinda simple an directly to the Spirit of the cold written laws....
Here Jesus is saying Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Is this a law? if not why not?
When the King says I say unto you.... Isn't the the kings word law? His decree ?
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat_12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Are the above statements of Jesus empty words ? Are they some general thoughts of our Lord?
Most the basic laws , of Europe and the West are based on the 10 . This is not some evil put forth from satan . These came from God.
Is there salvation in the laws NO Salvation is only in His Blood... Are the laws (10) a good way to live yes.
Not saying The Cross of Christ did not changed a lot ... The laws of blood sacrifice He really took care of....
How about in the discussions here we make it clear what each of mean when we say law.... doing so just might help us to honer the request of our Lord in Joh_13:34
Which group of laws are we speaking of....
The 10 come to mind first
The the zillion given to the Levits
Do we not call the commands of Christ laws because He uses ( ot the translator do) the commandment?.
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Jesus does not say zero laws matter He very plainly say if you treat each other with love kinda covers the rest .. Kinda simple an directly to the Spirit of the cold written laws....
Here Jesus is saying Joh_13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. Is this a law? if not why not?
When the King says I say unto you.... Isn't the the kings word law? His decree ?
Mat 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Mat 5:23 Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;
Mat 5:24 Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.
Mat_12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Are the above statements of Jesus empty words ? Are they some general thoughts of our Lord?
Most the basic laws , of Europe and the West are based on the 10 . This is not some evil put forth from satan . These came from God.
Is there salvation in the laws NO Salvation is only in His Blood... Are the laws (10) a good way to live yes.
Not saying The Cross of Christ did not changed a lot ... The laws of blood sacrifice He really took care of....
How about in the discussions here we make it clear what each of mean when we say law.... doing so just might help us to honer the request of our Lord in Joh_13:34
Brother, the work of obedience validated Abraham's faith as living, which is why God declared him as righteous.
Faith without the work of obedience is dead.
1 Now the Lord had said to Abram: "Get out of your country, From your family And from your father's house, To a land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing. 3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed." Genesis 12:1-3
If Abraham, believes that God has commanded him to get out and go, and has faith because God spoke to him, but doesn't actually obey what God has told him to do, then not only is his faith dead, but he shows that he does not love God, nor us, because of his disobedience.
A faith that does not obey is dead.
A love that does not obey is dead.
If you love Me you will keep My commands.
If God commands you to do something like "go to a street called straight", andyou have faith and know God spoke to you, but you don't do the work of obeying, then not only is your faith dead, so is your love for God and your neighbor Saul of Tarsus.
If Abraham does obey God, there will be no promise land, and No Messiah.
A love without obedience is not love at all.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Jethro Bodine
Member
I'm not saying this to be offensive, but the main reason people think Jesus was teaching entirely new doctrine in the Sermon on the Mount is because the church is so terribly ignorant of the law:
"33 ‘When a stranger resides with you in your land, you shall not do him wrong. 34 The stranger who resides with you shall be to you as the native among you, and you shall love him as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt; I am the Lord your God." (Levitcus 19:33-34 NASB)
Jesus is not only introducing new things, he is giving the proper, spiritual application of the law that the Jews did not have.
I was one of those ignorant souls who stayed clear of the law because the church said to stay clear of it (it doesn't apply anymore, it's been 'done away with', yada yada...). But when I started reading it I saw for myself how wrong the church is about this matter. Terribly, terribly wrong.
Jethro Bodine
Member
Read Paul's teachings carefully. This is ONLY true for the one who's flesh has not been crucified in Christ. The law only has power to keep you in marital union with sinful flesh, so that you have to obey it's authority over you, while husband sinful flesh is still alive. (Romans 7:1-6 NIV)
For someone to admit that the law makes them sin is basically confessing that sinful flesh has not been crucified in them.
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Brother, you keep thinking that the Law given on Mt Sinai was something new. Those 10 commandments were were laws that God wrote on stone for Moses and those people, but were around since the Garden.
These are Gods Laws that are Eternal, but were given along with a sacrificial system and a priesthood, as well as foods laws and clothing requirements that were added to the Covenant until the Seed should come.
At the cross all the shadows and types that were intended to point them to Christ were fulfilled and that Law has vanished away. The Laws of God that were seen in the Garden, and up until they were given in detail are Eternal.
The 10 commandments are for us today, not only those, but to Obey the Voice of God as Abraham did as well. The Sabbath as detailed in the law of Moses, was never intended as an Eternal Law, but that man needed to rest from his labors one day a week, which is the substance, found in Christ and will have its consummation in the 1000 year Day of Rest.
The Law of sin and death, that was evident in the Garden, says that man shall live by EVERY WORD THAT PROCEED OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD, so when Adam disobeyed that word that came out of the mouth of God, then sin spread to Him and all of mankind.
Jesus obeyed every word out of the mouth of God.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
This is absurd. You love yourself better than anybody. Paul even uses that truth to illustrate how we are to love our spouses:
"28 ...husbands ought also to love their own wives as their own bodies. He who loves his own wife loves himself; 29 for no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as Christ also does the church...30 His body." (Ephesians )
I see two things here.
1) The love that Christ has for us IS the love He has for his own body.
2) if what you say is true, then Paul is telling us to love our wives with a flawed love.
You may not get this because your understanding of love may not be God's understanding of love. Worldly love, the love we understand very well, is selfish, grasping, coveting. God's love seeks the well being of others. As Paul puts it, "9 “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.†10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor..." (Romans 13:9-10 NASB). What better person to know what hurts us than ourselves. God says to love others with that same attention and concern for comfort and well being. What a different world we'd live in if everyone did that.
Pretty hard to argue with.
And just so you didn't miss it, loving others the way you love your own body is EXACTLY how Christ loves us. EXACTLY.
I agree with you are many things brother.
What I am saying validates your message, however, I am expounding on some things that need to be explained.
Rightly dividing the Law of Moses from the Law that Abraham walked in is one of them.
Obedience that is both a component of faith as well as love, is another.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6
The common denominator of faith and love is obedience.
Do you see that faith was working together with his obedience, and by obedience, faith was made perfect?
The works are obedience to the word [Voice] of God. Faith comes by hearing God's word [Voice].
Not scripture, but rhema, His Voice.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
As I said, it would take a whole thread to detail the reasons why the church does not get this 'law' thing. One reason is the inability, and thus the refusal, to distinguish between laws. They don't understand that when Paul talks about having to do the whole law he's talking about the law in regard to justification, not the obedience of faith.
If you believe that Paul wrote Hebrews then you'll see that he explains how various ceremonial laws have been fulfilled by Christ so that no ongoing literal fulfillment is necessary on our part. While in other places he speaks of our ongoing obligation to the literal fulfillment of other laws.
But the church won't get this if they fail to understand the difference between ceremonial law and moral law--failing to distinguish between the two because they don't understand that when the Bible says 'all the law' that means all the law must be done if, and only if, you are trying to be justified by that law, not because you are simply being obedient to God because you have faith in Christ. In regard to the obedience of faith, some laws simply do not have to be fulfilled literally anymore, while others are to be literally fulfilled for the very reason you do have faith in Christ.
Jethro Bodine
Member
I understand you argument. Your's is the 'faith and works' argument. Meaning faith and works make you righteous before God. Problem is, Paul's teaching does not teach this. A careful read makes it clear that only the blood of Christ can make you righteous before God.
It's impossible that the merit of works, even if accompanied by faith, is able to wash away sin guilt. Impossible. You and I would have to die spiritually for our sins to removed in a works gospel of any kind. A few good works can never pay the price that a works gospel would demand. Never. A works gospel demands either perfect obedience, or your eternal spiritual death. We've already blown the perfect obedience part, so what's left?
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19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made;
If you believe Paul wrote Galatians, then you see how he explains that the Law of Moses is no longer.
As well as Hebrews, which says -
13 In that He says, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Hebrews 8:13
God's kingdom laws are to be obeyed.
Moses Law has vanished away.
If you have to have a written law to know its not right to murder someone, then your problem is not murder, your problem is you don't have the nature of Christ in you, nor His Spirit, and you are headed for hell.
JLB
Lets say instead of being together on the computer we are at a good old fashion camp meeting. here we are :smilie_colors hanging around yacking ..... Praising the Lord..Then this guy shows up...:adore we know This is our Lord Jesus.... He says to Sam how about going into town and getting some food for these folks.... Sam ponders the Words of the Lord. He turns to Jesus, says i cant do what You tell me 
to do i am not under the law.
Who here would do such? Not one, yet we do so by the Written Word.
here we are :smilie_colors hanging around yacking ..... Praising the Lord..Then this guy shows up...:adore we know This is our Lord Jesus.... He says to Sam how about going into town and getting some food for these folks.... Sam ponders the Words of the Lord. He turns to Jesus, says i cant do what You tell me to do i am not under the law. Who here would do such? Not one, yet we do so by the Written Word.
That is not my argument.
I am saying that without obedience to God's Voice, by which you have faith, then your faith is dead, as well as your love.
You can not Love God while disobeying Him.
You can not believe God, yet disobey Him.
Obedience makes both faith and love, legitimate.
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
I started out in the charismatic movement. I know all about the 'Rhema' Word of God. Rhema Word does not mean it stands alone from written words. It means the Spirit of God inhabits his Words. When we see 'do not steal' the Rhema Word of God inhabits those written words and it is that Word of God that enables us to obey what we read.
Rhema in no way shape or form means 'always apart from the written word'. Not true at all. That's the difference between the WAY of the old covenant--mere written words that have no power to motivate, and the WAY of the New Covenent--written words filled with the very voice and presence of God by his Holy Spirit, which do motivate us to act on those words. But bad teaching about 'law' made New Covenant obedience to mean lofty, spiritual, feel good experiences absent from the instruction of written words.
Jethro Bodine
Member
As long as you're saying the obedience itself has no power whatsoever to justify (make righteous) then we're in agreement.
Don't think for a moment that I believe the faith that justifies all by itself, apart from works, does not have to have works attached. The attachment of works does not now make faith able to justify. It shows faith to be of the quality that can justify. That's why the 'faith' that doesn't have works attached can't save. It is showing itself to be the 'faith' that can not justify.
And James says the work that must accompany faith to show it as being the faith that is able to save a person is the work of the law of Moses summed up in 'love your neighbor as yourself'. He uses four, maybe five, specific Mosaic laws to support his thesis that the faith that saves is the faith that works in accordance with the law of Moses. It's undeniable.
I am saying obedience is the only thing that justifies and makes righteous.
The ONLY thing!
JLB
Jethro Bodine
Member
Can't you see that what you are describing here is the difference between the WAY of the old covenant, the law of Moses, and the WAY of the New Covenant, faith in Christ? Do you know what that means?
The end of the old WAY of trying to relate to God through only written words did not remove the written words. The new WAY of relating to God through the Holy Spirit is the power to now do what the written words command us to do. The new WAY did not remove the requirements of the old WAY. It moves us to keep them.
Mere written words--the OLD WAY--can not motivate a person to obey those words.
The Holy Spirit given through faith in Christ--the NEW WAY--can motivate a person to obey those words.
"...we serve in newness (the NEW way) of the Spirit and not in oldness (the OLD way) of the letter." (Romans 7:6 NASB)
Jethro Bodine
Member
That's a works gospel.
I'm telling you the faith that motivated those works is the ONLY thing that can justify. Because that is the only work, the work of believing, that can access the blood of Christ for the removal of sin. How does doing good things cancel out sin guilt? Only the blood of Christ can wash away sin guilt.