The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?

[Jethro Bodine]

Lets say instead of being together on the computer we are at a good old fashion camp meeting. here we are :smilie_colors hanging around yacking ..... Praising the Lord..Then this guy shows up...:adore we know This is our Lord Jesus.... He says to Sam how about going into town and getting some food for these folks.... Sam ponders the Words of the Lord. He turns to Jesus, says i cant do what You tell me to do i am not under the law.

Who here would do such? Not one, yet we do so by the Written Word.

The point being, the law is just as much the Word of God as Jesus standing next to us and speaking to us. The requirements haven't changed. How he communicates them to us has. Right?

 

[reba]

YUP

 

[JLB]

Can't you see that what you are describing here is the difference between the WAY of the old covenant,

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

Can't you see that by saying added, the Holy Spirit is indicating that the law was a part of something greater?

Can't you see that by saying till, the Holy Spirit is indicating the law was temporary?


The Old way is obeying God's Voice.

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5

and again -

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


The New Way is obeying God's Voice.

26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith-- Romans 16:26

and again -

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


To believe means to obey.


Look at this verse with me -

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


JLB

 

[JLB]

I'm telling you the faith that motivated those works is the ONLY thing that can justify.

The works is obedience. Obedient to what you heard.

If you don't do what you've heard, then your faith is declared dead.

The works that Noah did was build the Ark. If Noah doesn't build the Ark his faith is dead.

What other works is there except to obey what God tells you to do?????


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Can't you see that what you are describing here is the difference between the WAY of the old covenant,

19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. Galatians 3:19

Can't you see that by saying added, the Holy Spirit is indicating that the law was a part of something greater?

Can't you see that by saying till, the Holy Spirit is indicating the law was temporary?


The Old way is obeying God's Voice.

5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." Genesis 26:5

and again -

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8


The New Way is obeying God's Voice.

26 but now has been made manifest, and by the prophetic Scriptures has been made known to all nations, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, for obedience to the faith-- Romans 16:26

and again -

16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? Romans 6:16


To believe means to obey.


Look at this verse with me -

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV


JLB

This is a works gospel.

The blood of Christ is the ONLY thing that can make a person righteous and free of sin guilt. There is no amount of work, small or great, except for the 'work' of believing in the blood, that can make a person free of sin guilt.

It will take more time than I have to give to unwind your misunderstanding of the role of works in faith justification and the misapplication of scriptures you use to defend it. The bottom line is, faith in Christ's blood is a completely separate and different entity than any other work a person can perform. If you don't understand that you will not understand the Biblical teaching of "righteousness (by faith in the blood) apart from (any other) works" (Romans 4:6 NIV).

What you do as a result of placing your faith in Christ--your obedience--is NOT your faith in the blood of Christ to forgive sins. It is the EVIDENCE of your faith in the blood of Christ to forgive sins. The evidence does not do the justifying (making one righteous). Faith in the blood (not the faith to do other things) does that ALL BY ITSELF. The evidence SHOWS you to have the righteousness that comes by faith in the blood of Christ all by itself.

 

[JLB]

The blood of Christ is the ONLY thing that can make a person righteous and free of sin guilt. There is no amount of work, small or great, except for the 'work' of believing in the blood, that can make a person free of sin guilt.

I surely agree that the blood of Christ is what cleanses us from sin, and no amount of work can cleanse us from sin. However, we must obey the Gospel message in order to render our believing valid.

For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 1 Peter 4:17

and again -

In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 2 Thessalonians 1:8

except for the 'work' of believing in the blood,

Please show the scripture for this statement.

To believe means to obey.


Look at this verse with me -

6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience. Hebrews 4:6 NKJV

6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein , and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief: Hebrews 4:6 KJV

Can you see the point that I made here. Please give me an honest evaluation of this word believe, and how it carries the significance of obedience. Please do not whitewash what I am saying here about obedience and believe with a statement such as "this is a works Gospel".



JLB

 

[JLB]

What you do as a result of placing your faith in Christ--your obedience--is NOT your faith in the blood of Christ to forgive sins.

What you do that is not led by and inspired by the Holy Spirit is dead works.

It will take more time than I have to give to unwind your misunderstanding of the role of works in faith justification and the misapplication of scriptures you use to defend it.

Brother, I am discussing the role of obedience in faith.

The life of faith and righteousness and love, carry on after the initial moment of salvation.

Righteousness of faith is a lifestyle.

Obedience is an essential element of righteousness.

Obedience is an essential element of Love.

You don't need to try and unwind what I have said, but rather read all the scriptures that explain what is being said.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

The work that Abraham performed was being obedient to what God instructed him to do.

Not works of the Law, the work of obedience.

Why are you arguing with me on such an elementary subject.

Abraham was declared righteous by his faith, a faith that was a living valid faith because of his obedience [works].

How can you possibly argue with that.

A person who hears the Gospel, but does not repent and confess with his mouth the Lord Jesus, and does not believe in his heart God raised him from the dead, will not be saved, though he heard the Gospel. Because he has not obeyed the Gospel.

Furthermore, the Gospel that Peter was taught and preached on the day of Pentecost, had the element of being baptized.

37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" 38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

So, if you get right down to it, obeying the Gospel means Repent and be Baptized.


JLB

 

[reba]

How is it works to one who loves the Lord and there for has read and taken to heart the guidelines of the word of God.


How is any obedience not a 'work?

 

[King James]

I found this video helpful on this highly debated subject:

[video=youtube;eK0jiod6H9o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eK0jiod6H9o[/video]

 

[JLB]

Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Abraham's work was the action of his obedience.

Abraham's showed He loved God by His obedience.


JLB

 

[iLOVE]

But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." Galatians 3:10 NLT

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10 NIV

But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit. Romans 7:6 NLT


If the Believer attempts to live for God by any manner other than Faith in Christ and the Cross, he is doomed to failure (Rom. 8:2).

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4 ESV

For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God's grace. Galatians 5:4 NLT

The only way this can be achieved, the only way it can be brought about, which is God’s Way, is that we ever make the Cross of Christ the Object of our Faith. That and that alone, is the way of the Spirit.

 

[JLB]

But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." Galatians 3:10 NLT

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10 NIV

But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit. Romans 7:6 NLT


If the Believer attempts to live for God by any manner other than Faith in Christ and the Cross, he is doomed to failure (Rom. 8:2).

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4 ESV

The only way this can be achieved, the only way it can be brought about, which is God’s Way, is that we ever make the Cross of Christ the Object of our Faith. That and that alone, is the way of the Spirit.

I agree with everything you said, but i would ask you to clarify what you mean by the phrase - we ever make the Cross of Christ the Object of our Faith.

Could you expound on this a little?


JLB

 

[iLOVE]

Should the "Ten Commandments" be our moral guide for daily living? Or should the "Holy Spirit" be our guide for daily living?

 

[iLOVE]

But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." Galatians 3:10 NLT

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10 NIV

But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit. Romans 7:6 NLT


If the Believer attempts to live for God by any manner other than Faith in Christ and the Cross, he is doomed to failure (Rom. 8:2).

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4 ESV

The only way this can be achieved, the only way it can be brought about, which is God’s Way, is that we ever make the Cross of Christ the Object of our Faith. That and that alone, is the way of the Spirit.

I agree with everything you said, but i would ask you to clarify what you mean by the phrase - we ever make the Cross of Christ the Object of our Faith.

Could you expound on this a little?


JLB

I will start a thread very soon about the "Message of the Cross". This is God's power!

 

[JLB]

But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." Galatians 3:10 NLT

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10 NIV

But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit. Romans 7:6 NLT


If the Believer attempts to live for God by any manner other than Faith in Christ and the Cross, he is doomed to failure (Rom. 8:2).

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4 ESV

The only way this can be achieved, the only way it can be brought about, which is God’s Way, is that we ever make the Cross of Christ the Object of our Faith. That and that alone, is the way of the Spirit.

I agree with everything you said, but i would ask you to clarify what you mean by the phrase - we ever make the Cross of Christ the Object of our Faith.

Could you expound on this a little?


JLB

I will start a thread very soon about the "Message of the Cross". This is God's power!

Not necessarily the Message of the Cross, but the phrase - we ever make the Cross of Christ the Object of our Faith.

How do we do this work of making the Cross of Christ the object of our faith?


JLB

 

[iLOVE]

But those who depend on the law to make them right with God are under his curse, for the Scriptures say, "Cursed is everyone who does not observe and obey all the commands that are written in God's Book of the Law." Galatians 3:10 NLT

For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10 NIV

But now we have been released from the law, for we died to it and are no longer captive to its power. Now we can serve God, not in the old way of obeying the letter of the law, but in the new way of living in the Spirit. Romans 7:6 NLT


If the Believer attempts to live for God by any manner other than Faith in Christ and the Cross, he is doomed to failure (Rom. 8:2).

For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. Romans 10:4 ESV

The only way this can be achieved, the only way it can be brought about, which is God’s Way, is that we ever make the Cross of Christ the Object of our Faith. That and that alone, is the way of the Spirit.

I agree with everything you said, but i would ask you to clarify what you mean by the phrase - we ever make the Cross of Christ the Object of our Faith.

Could you expound on this a little?


JLB

I will start a thread very soon about the "Message of the Cross". This is God's power!

Not necessarily the Message of the Cross, but the phrase - we ever make the Cross of Christ the Object of our Faith.

How do we do this work of making the Cross of Christ the object of our faith?


JLB

The only solution for sin, the only answer to sin, is the Cross of Christ.

The Cross made possible a new intimacy with God. Three of the Gospels mention that at the moment of Jesus’ death, a thick curtain inside the temple tore from top to bottom, exposing the Most Holy Place.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

The blood of Christ is the ONLY thing that can make a person righteous and free of sin guilt. There is no amount of work, small or great, except for the 'work' of believing in the blood, that can make a person free of sin guilt.

I surely agree that the blood of Christ is what cleanses us from sin, and no amount of work can cleanse us from sin. However, we must obey the Gospel message in order to render our believing valid.

This is James' argument. The faith that justifies all by itself is validated as the faith that can justify all by itself when it acts in accordance with the law. IOW, faith is validated as that which can justify a person when it upholds the law. The problem comes in when one thinks the obedience generated by the faith that justifies all by itself is what does the justifying.

We are not MADE free of sin guilt (justified) by the obedience that comes from faith. We are made free of sin guilt by faith all by itself. This is Paul's argument.

We are SHOWN to have been made free of sin guilt by faith in Christ all by itself by the obedience that comes from faith. This is James' argument.

Faith upholds the law, not abolishes it.

 

[reba]

Should the "Ten Commandments" be our moral guide for daily living? Or should the "Holy Spirit" be our guide for daily living?

God gave man the law, God gave man the Holy Spirit I see they work or blend together...

Why are we told to : 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth are we to study the Holy Spirit or the whole of Scripture. Is this verse a command? What 'work' must be done to study?

From G4710; to use speed, that is, to make effort, be prompt or earnest: - do (give) diligence, be diligent (forward), endeavour, labour, study.

 

[JLB]

We are not MADE free of sin guilt (justified) by the obedience that comes from faith. We are made free of sin guilt by faith all by itself.

Faith without works [obedience] is dead.

A faith that does not obey is a faith that does not believe.

A faith that does not obey is a faith that can not save.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works [obedience] when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? James 2:21

Abraham was obedient, therefore he was justified by his obedience.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Should the "Ten Commandments" be our moral guide for daily living? Or should the "Holy Spirit" be our guide for daily living?

God gave man the law, God gave man the Holy Spirit I see they work or blend together...

Why are we told to : 2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth are we to study the Holy Spirit or the whole of Scripture. Is this verse a command? What 'work' must be done to study?

From G4710; to use speed, that is, to make effort, be prompt or earnest: - do (give) diligence, be diligent (forward), endeavour, labour, study.

Some insist that after the resurrection the Holy Spirit alone is our guide to right living (righteousness).

"All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness..." (2 Timothy 3:16 NASB)

Remember, there is no New Testament at the time Paul said this. I don't think anyone wants to accuse Paul of 'trying to be justified by the law' simply because he endorses diligent reading and studying of the law and the prophets as a guide to righteousness. But that is exactly what happens to the rest of us when we suggest the law and the prophets has value in teaching and training us in right living as if doing that is categorically opposed to the ministry of the Spirit who impresses that teaching and training on our hearts.