The Law: Fulfilled or Abolished?

[farouk]

Although we are free from the Mosaic Law, there are laws God said He will write on our hearts (Hebrew 8:10).

Hebrews 8:10 is a quote from Jeremiah 31. In another thread, someone said that we have to understand Scripture in the way that the original audience would have understood it when they first heard it. I agree. The Jews that first heard these words from Jeremiah would have understood "My laws" to mean God's laws as they are in the books of Moses. I think we should understand it that way too, and not through thousands of years of interpretations.

The TOG
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Many times we can go back to the Law (or our self-effort) by trying to keep unnecessary requirements or manmade rules. We cannot earn our righteousness that way. Jesus has already made us right with God. We should make the decision to be God-pleasers instead of men-pleasers. We often foolishly turn from trusting God’s grace to trusting our own efforts or other people’s opinions.

Ambulance chasing Dems (or anyone else) can't impose new taxes on someone who has already been gloriously called into the Lord's presence. Religious ambulance chasers can't impose new legal requirements on those for whom the Lord Jesus, in whom we stand by grace, and by whom we are dead to the world and to the law, has already gloriously fulfilled the law, and nailed its ordinances to His Cross.

 

[TOG]

I'm in the church, not Israel.

So, this doesn't apply to you then?

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,<sup class="versenum"> </sup>do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. (Rom. 11:17-18 ESV)
​

I don't know about you, but I'm grafted on to Israel though faith in Israel's Messiah. That has certain implications concerning the covenant God made with Israel. If this doesn't apply to you, then I think you should realize that God made the New Covenant with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Heb. 8:8 ESV), not with Gentiles. If you're not "in Israel" by being grafted in by faith, then you have no covenant with God (except for the covenant with Noah, which applies to everybody).

The TOG
​

 

[TOG]

Joe died; and a year later his widow got a call from someone at the Inland Revenue Service asking for taxes Joe supposedly incurred for the year after he died. Joe's widow confidently replied: Joe is now dead to the law and he doesn't owe you guys anything now! Galatians 2.19

That actually has nothing to do with what I said.

The TOG
​

 

[farouk]

I'm in the church, not Israel.

So, this doesn't apply to you then?

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,<sup class="versenum"> </sup>do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. (Rom. 11:17-18 ESV)
​

I don't know about you, but I'm grafted on to Israel though faith in Israel's Messiah. That has certain implications concerning the covenant God made with Israel. If this doesn't apply to you, then I think you should realize that God made the New Covenant with "the house of Israel and the house of Judah" (Heb. 8:8 ESV), not with Gentiles. If you're not "in Israel" by being grafted in by faith, then you have no covenant with God (except for the covenant with Noah, which applies to everybody).

The TOG
​

You may wish to consign me to the ranks of unbelievers because I'm not of Israel.

I can't help you there, I'm afraid.

All I can say is that Scofield reminds us that there are three distinct groups of people: Jew, Gentile and the church of God (1 Corinthians 10.32).

As a New Testament believer, by God's grace, I'm in the church of God.

I do agree that it calls for humility, as before Jews who are veiled, while those of a Gentile background are converted to Christ.

 

[farouk]

Joe died; and a year later his widow got a call from someone at the Inland Revenue Service asking for taxes Joe supposedly incurred for the year after he died. Joe's widow confidently replied: Joe is now dead to the law and he doesn't owe you guys anything now! Galatians 2.19

That actually has nothing to do with what I said.

The TOG
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Everyone has an opinion, I guess.

What I've been trying to do is make sanctified analogies of Scripture truths.

 

[TOG]

This caused a problem later on because it was unlawful (according to the Law) for a Jew to keep company with someone who was of another nationality (Acts 10:28).

That's the Pharisaic "oral law", not God's law. You won't find anything about that in the books of Moses.

Under the covenant of grace, God is merciful, and He no longer remembers our sins.

Are you saying that He wasn't merciful under the "Old Covenant"? Wouldn't that imply that God changed?

The TOG
​

 

[farouk]

This caused a problem later on because it was unlawful (according to the Law) for a Jew to keep company with someone who was of another nationality (Acts 10:28).

That's the Pharisaic "oral law", not God's law. You won't find anything about that in the books of Moses.

Under the covenant of grace, God is merciful, and He no longer remembers our sins.

Are you saying that He wasn't merciful under the "Old Covenant"? Wouldn't that imply that God changed?

The TOG
​

Are you really suggesting that for example John 14.1, John 14.27, etc should really be undertood in terms of people exceedingly quaking and trembling (Hebrews 12.21, in its reference to the situation under the old economy)?

Anyhow, I got a ticket on the Gospel bus. The ticket is good for the Station under Grace. This is where I get off; after this, the Gospel bus is called something else that I don't know about.

 

[TOG]

You may wish to consign me to the ranks of unbelievers because I'm not of Israel.

I can't help you there, I'm afraid.

I can't consign you to anything. That's God's job, not mine. All I did was show the implications of what you yourself said.

All I can say is that Scofield reminds us that there are three distinct groups of people: Jew, Gentile and the church of God (1 Corinthians 10.32).

Ah... I see... Well, I base my faith on what God says through His Word, the Bible, not on what Scofield says. He was probably a great guy, but he was just as flawed as the rest of us. We have to compare everything Scofield said to what God says in His word. In this case, Scofield was wrong. There are only two groups, although each is called by a number of different names. The following all refer to the same two groups:

• Righteous and unrighteous
• Saints and sinners
• Believers and unbelievers
• Saved and lost
• Godly and ungodly
• The church and those outside

Jews are those that are physical descendants of Abraham, while Gentiles are those who aren't his descendants. There are both Jews and Gentiles in the church, and there are both Jews and Gentiles outside the church. Everybody, whether Jew or gentile is in one of the two groups above, whatever terms you choose to use to distinguish them.

The TOG
​

 

[TOG]

Are you really suggesting that for example John 14.1, John 14.27, etc should really be undertood in terms of people exceedingly quaking and trembling (Hebrews 12.21, in its reference to the situation under the old economy)?

I don't think I can be much clearer. I believe we need to understand the words of the Bible the way they were originally understood, not the way the church has modified them over thousands of years. When the Bible talks about "the law", the people it was originally spoken or written to would have understood that to mean what most today call "the law of Moses" (I prefer to call it "the law of God"). We need to understand it the same way, rather than creating a new law for it to apply to that suits us better.

The TOG
​

 

[Jethro Bodine]

So what will be the result of me supposedly upholding the righteous requirements of God?

You will dwell in the blessings of the covenant, not just be in the covenant.

I thought I was in the church, already in Christ, Who already fulfilled the law, and His perfect law keeping was already imputed to my account, and I under grace needed in loving obedience to rejoice in security in Him. I didn't think there were still legal matters to be taken care of.

The attorney already went back to his office and we're now having a peaceful family time. (There was also another attorney here who reckoned that some other law still applied, but he was only talking about another jurisdiction, and so we sent him away.)

EDited
Perhaps then you'll understand what I was saying, and how we have to obey God to enjoy the blessings that are attached to the salvation we have through Christ.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Joe's widow confidently replied: Joe is now dead to the law and he doesn't owe you guys anything now!

Galatians 2.19

All Christians have a debt of law that they still owe:

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another..." (Romans 13:8 NASB)

Not in order to be justified, but as the expected and obligatory outcome of having your sins forgiven for the asking. The lawful debt of "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 NIV) never ends. It is never satisfied. Christ did not die to set us free from that. He died to make it so we can keep that law, not throw it away.

The requirements of the law did not end. What ended was the power of the law to act as a marriage contract keeping you bound to sinful flesh (Romans 7:1-6 NIV).

 

[Jethro Bodine]

We cannot earn our righteousness that way. Jesus has already made us right with God. We should make the decision to be God-pleasers instead of men-pleasers.

What do we do to be God pleasers? Obey, or disobey? Obey or disobey what?

Does obedience always mean a person is trying to earn a declaration of righteousness?

We often foolishly turn from trusting God’s grace to trusting our own efforts or other people’s opinions.

When I don't covet, or don't steal, or don't commit adultery, does that mean I have categorically and without exception turned from trusting in the blood of Christ for justification and have now turned to the law to be justified? Is it impossible that my obedience to those and other commands is because I am trusting in the blood of Christ for justification?

 

[iLOVE]

We cannot earn our righteousness that way. Jesus has already made us right with God. We should make the decision to be God-pleasers instead of men-pleasers.

What do we do to be God pleasers? Obey, or disobey? Obey or disobey what?

Does obedience always mean a person is trying to earn a declaration of righteousness?

We often foolishly turn from trusting God’s grace to trusting our own efforts or other people’s opinions.

When I don't covet, or don't steal, or don't commit adultery, does that mean I have categorically and without exception turned from trusting in the blood of Christ for justification and have now turned to the law to be justified? Is it impossible that my obedience to those and other commands is because I am trusting in the blood of Christ for justification?

<sup class="versenum">8 </sup>For the rest, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is worthy of reverence and is honorable and seemly, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely and lovable, whatever is kind and winsome and gracious, if there is any virtue and excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think on and weigh and take account of these things [fix your minds on them]. Philippians 4:8 AMP (This can be done, providing the Cross is the Object of our Faith, which then gives the Holy Spirit latitude to help us.)

1 If then you have been raised with Christ [to a new life, thus sharing His resurrection from the dead], aim at and seek the [rich, eternal treasures] that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.<sup class="crossreference" value='(A)'></sup>
<sup class="versenum">2</sup>And set your minds and keep them set on what is above (the higher things), not on the things that are on the earth. (Everything on this earth is temporal; as well, our help comes from above)
<sup class="versenum">3 </sup>For [as far as this world is concerned] you have died (Romans 6:3-5), and your [new, real] life is hidden with Christ in God. Colossians 3:1-3 AMP (All made possible by the Cross. John 14:20)

Do you understand the message of the Cross?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you understand the message of the Cross

I understand it very well.

It's funny that all the church can hear when they hear the word 'law' is 'trying to be justified by the law'.

 

[JLB]

Abraham's obedience did not make him righteous before God. Abraham's faith in what God said about a promised son is what made him righteous before God.

The obedience of faith is exactly what made Abraham righteous.

Faith without the "work" of obedience is dead, worthless, useless, inactive, of no account.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

The "works" that makes faith valid is obedience.


JLB

 

[iLOVE]

Do you understand the message of the Cross

I understand it very well.

It's funny that all the church can hear when they hear the word 'law' is 'trying to be justified by the law'.

As I have stated in post #91, God will release to you and I the most precious things of His heart when you operate from the spirit. This is done with a willing heart, not trying to be justified by the law.

 

[JLB]

The law of love IS the law of Moses: "love your neighbor as yourself" (Leviticus 19:18 NIV)

The Law of Christ is to love your enemies which is not the law of Moses -

43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'

44 But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, Matthew 5:43-44


JLB

 

[JLB]

What do we do to be God pleasers? Obey, or disobey? Obey or disobey what?

His Voice, His leading, what He tells you to do.

That is why the New Testament is "not like the Law", in that we have a living daily relationship with Him.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Abraham's obedience did not make him righteous before God. Abraham's faith in what God said about a promised son is what made him righteous before God.

The obedience of faith is exactly what made Abraham righteous.

That's the very works gospel Paul said is not true. The ONLY work that can make a person righteous is believing in the Promised Son. Because that's the only way to access the ONLY thing that can wipe away sin guilt--the blood of Christ.

No obedience can wipe away sin guilt. Only blood can do that. And Christ's blood does it one time for all time. His blood does not need to be reapplied every year like the blood of animals. Obedience is how we know the blood of Christ has been applied.

Faith without the "work" of obedience is dead, worthless, useless, inactive, of no account.

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

The "works" that makes faith valid is obedience.


JLB

Works do not get added to faith to make faith able to justify (valid). The blood justifies all by itself. If the removal of sin guilt is accomplished by doing right, even if it is done 'in faith', then you have a works gospel--a gospel where you earn justification based on the performance of righteous work. This is what I was trying to explain to Muller who thought 'having faith' in regard to salvation meant doing spiritual works of service. No, the 'having faith' that justifies is faith in the blood of Christ...all by itself.

The faith that is dead, not having works attached, is dead because it doesn't have the expected and obligatory evidence with it to validate it as the faith that justifies all by itself. It's like going swimming. You didn't go swimming because you got wet. You got wet because you went swimming. If you're not wet, we have no choice but to conclude you did not have a valid swimming experience. If you did, we'd be able to visibly see that.

So it is with faith. An experience of justification by faith, apart from any righteous work (except the work of believing), if it not accompanied by the visible evidence of that experience is not a valid experience of having believed. IOW, you haven't truly believed in the blood of Christ for the forgiveness of sins. Having sins forgiven changes a person. If you can't see the change you probably didn't genuinely receive the forgiveness of God.

"...show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18 NASB)

You see James' discourse is not about making yourself righteous by having faith and doing good works. It's about showing yourself to have the faith that justifies all by itself, and how that showing is necessary to validate your faith as able to save.

Add to that, the 'work' he's talking about is obedience in conformity with the Law of Moses. But so many in the church are sure they are not obligated to anything written in the law of Moses. Horse hockey! Faith UPHOLDS the requirements of law of Moses, not abolishes them. But so many are taught to hear this as 'trying to be justified by works of the law'. There are reasons they are like this, but it would take a new thread to examine those.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Do you understand the message of the Cross

I understand it very well.

It's funny that all the church can hear when they hear the word 'law' is 'trying to be justified by the law'.

As I have stated in post #91, God will release to you and I the most precious things of His heart when you operate from the spirit. This is done with a willing heart, not trying to be justified by the law.

Why do you keep saying this? I've made it abundantly clear that conformity to the law of Moses (do not steal, do not lie, etc...) is not for the purpose of being justified by that effort. Explain to us why that's all you can hear.