Bible Study The Law in Romans

[Douglas Summers]

In the Book of Romans, Paul teaches of morality and the Law of condemnation that condemned sin in sinful man (Ten Commandments). The Ten Commandments serves it's purpose in the New Covenant just as it did in the First Covenant. It made man aware of his sin and brought guilt upon him, sending Him to the Law of the Priesthood. The first for the priesthood under the law of atonement (covering of sin), and the second priesthood of the Law of Christ for removing sin completely. And not only that, but also a mercy seat in our eternal high priest to bring us to the conformity of Christ. (Rom. 1:1-2: 29; 8: 29)
When Paul gives us the example of a marriage contract, he speaks using those examples because of the weak understanding of our flesh (babes in Christ) (Rom. 6: 19)
So Paul says, When under the law of marriage (to the Jew). and a women takes another man, she is an adulteress. But if her husband is dead, she loosed from the law. The law has no dominion over a man if he dies. Those of us who have been born again have died to the flesh. For as we were buried with Christ. (crucified the old man on the cross) we are raised in newness of life in Christ Jesus. This is not to pretend that the old man is dead, for to be born again is to have buried the old Adamic nature in death. God has at that time condemned the flesh in judgment so that the righteous requirements of the law can be met (Rom. 8: 1-11) So, when we died in Christ, the old man is judged, condemned, dead and buried. Therefore we are free from the commandment and it's law of death, and we are now married to another (Christ) Romans Chapter 6. So we are free from the law by death. The law did not die to us, we died to the law and are free to marry another. The Law did not change, it still serves it's purpose, to condemn the sinner and sends him to Christ. For we are not under the law of the first priesthood, but under the law of Christ, the new and eternal priesthood. The law of condemnation will stand (Ten Commandments) until it has condemned all sin forever. Study the Scriptures)

So the law of the priesthood in the first covenant is fading away and gone. And we have died to the law of condemnation and free from it.
Amen
In Christ
Douglas Summers

 

[jocor]

The Ten Commandments serves it's purpose in the New Covenant just as it did in the First Covenant.

So we are free from the law by death.

Please clarify these seemingly contradictory statements. Are you saying, based on the latter statement, that we do not have to obey the Ten Commandments? Or are you saying, based on the former statement, that we should still obey the Ten Commandments?

 

[Douglas Summers]

Please clarify these seemingly contradictory statements. Are you saying, based on the latter statement, that we do not have to obey the Ten Commandments? Or are you saying, based on the former statement, that we should still obey the Ten Commandments?

Neither one. Man can not obey God by the Flesh.
When we died to the flesh (all born again believers received the new man in the image of Christ by rebirth of the Spirit) There is no born again believer that does not have the Spirit of Christ. Man can not obey the Ten Commandments. The commandments were never a ministry to life, it was a ministry of death, for the Ten Commandments condemned man for His Sins, and that in turn was to send us to Christ in both the First Covenant and the New Covenant. That was the purpose of the laws of the Priesthood.
Because of the new covenant priesthood in Christ, the flesh has been condemned died and buried in Christ. We are no longer under the penalty of death by Ten Commandments. For the body of flesh is dead and we are free from the law of condemnation. And because we have been born again with the Spirit of Christ, we serve in the newness of life. For God has put the law in to our heart :and no man need to teach another man righteousness, for the law is Spiritual as we have become Spiritual.Read and study Hebrews 8:10-13 along with Romans Chapters 5,6,7,& 8. Gods plan for man in Jesus Christ is not revealed to us in one or two Scriptures. You must study more than a few verses here and there. If you are counting on your salvation by obeying the Ten Commandments, then you are under the law and not grace. If you were born again, was there not a change in your life? and if so, that was the Spirit of Christ.

 

[reba]

Deu 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

I disagree ..

 

[Douglas Summers]

Deu 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

I disagree ..

You are not the only one that disagrees. There are a multitude that disagree. Thus, denominations. If I say that the Spirit of the Lord has not given the born again believer (me and others) understanding of His purpose and will, then I would be a liar. The Holy Spirit has given every born again believer gifts. These gifts are not what we decide we have, but are given freely to every born again believer as the Spirit wills. He is sovereign ....really! Therefore we do not speak on our own understanding as we did as babes in Christ, for we have matured as to Sons of Christ. What is it that you disagree with? And what was Christ's commandments in Jon. 14: 15? ((John 15: 12; 1 Jon. 3: 23-24). Man can not obey God's laws by the flesh (letter of the law) for the law is Spiritual.. Therefore the new covenant has put the Spirit of the Law in our hearts by rebirth so that we are examples of the law's Spiritual character.

 

[reba]

I disagree the law was of death..

The commandments were never a ministry to life, it was a ministry of death,

Deu 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live,and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

 

[JLB]

Deu 4:1 Now therefore hearken, O Israel, unto the statutes and unto the judgments, which I teach you, for to do them, that ye may live, and go in and possess the land which the LORD God of your fathers giveth you.
Lev 18:5 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes, and my judgments: which if a man do, he shall live in them: I am the LORD.
Deu 6:24 And the LORD commanded us to do all these statutes, to fear the LORD our God, for our good always, that he might preserve us alive, as it is at this day.
Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
Psa 19:8 The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.

I disagree ..

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

14 You shall keep the Sabbath, therefore, for it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall surely be put to death; for whoever does anywork on it, that person shall be cut off from among his people. 15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.16 Therefore the children of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations as a perpetual covenant. 17 It is a sign between Me and the children of Israel forever; for in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day He rested and was refreshed.’”
18 And when He had made an end of speaking with him on Mount Sinai, He gave Moses two tablets of the Testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God. Exodus 31:14-18


Thank God that we are not under the law of Moses.


JLB

 

[ezrider]

I disagree the law was of death..

Then I would ask if you disagree with Paul, because Paul called it a ministration of death.

2 Cor 3:7-8
But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?


Not only did Paul call it a ministration of death, but the prophets also called it a covenant with death.

Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death,
and with hell are we at agreement;
when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us:
for we have made lies our refuge,
and under falsehood have we hid ourselves.

Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled,
and your agreement with hell shall not stand;
when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
then ye shall be trodden down by it.

 

[reba]

No i dont disagree with the Word of God .. i could ask you almost the exact same question do you disagree with Moses and David ? and i doubt you do.....
In my mind there is a balance.. a coming together .. of the sides of this.. could it be the people mess up ...I am thinking something like this.... Arron was the high priest.. from reading Scripture (after the calf thing.).. he got his act together and was faithful... as centuries go by the Isrealites (church of the day) got more and more away from God the leader ship would repent and slip the OT tells us this over and over and over.. the gap between Arron and Caiaphas not only time but in faithfulness.. understanding etc is huge..

I will not carry this on as this is not a debate forum..

 

[jocor]

Man can not obey the Ten Commandments.

Yeshua did and he was a man who was in all points tempted as we were, yet without sin.

The commandments were never a ministry to life, it was a ministry of death, for the Ten Commandments condemned man for His Sins, and that in turn was to send us to Christ in both the First Covenant and the New Covenant.

I disagree. The Ten Commandments did not condemn man for his sins. They merely pointed out sin. The penalty phase of the First Covenant condemned those who broke the Ten Commandments. Nor were they, in and of themselves, a "ministry of death." Only as part of the First Covenant did the breaking of them lead to death. The Ten Commandments are part of the New Covenant as well, but the death penalty for breaking them has been paid for by Yeshua.

If you are counting on your salvation by obeying the Ten Commandments, then you are under the law and not grace.

I do not obey the Ten Commandments to be saved, but because I am saved. It is a fruit of my salvation.

 

[jocor]

Therefore the new covenant has put the Spirit of the Law in our hearts by rebirth so that we are examples of the law's Spiritual character.

Are we permitted to murder, steal, commit adultery or idolatry? No. We MUST obey the letter of these laws. Scripture does not say, "The Spirit of the Law is written in our hearts." It says, "The Law is written in our hearts". That includes the letter and the Spirit of the Law.

 

[jocor]

Isaiah 28:15
Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death,
and with hell are we at agreement;
when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us:
for we have made lies our refuge,
and under falsehood have we hid ourselves.

Isaiah 28:18
And your covenant with death shall be disannulled,
and your agreement with hell shall not stand;
when the overflowing scourge shall pass through,
then ye shall be trodden down by it.

The word "covenant" in these two passages has absolutely nothing to do with the First Covenant. A "covenant with death" is an expression meaning they have chosen to be in agreement with death by virtue of their sins. They chose to sin and that choice created a bond between them and death.

 

[smaller]

Paul details, in many places, the utter futility of law keeping and also tells us exactly why.

I'm only amazed that believers can't see it.

Paul's "best" example is this:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In Paul's example there is him, as a believing child of God. AND, there is a messenger of Satan in his flesh. ONE of those parties (not Paul) automatically resists the law through the flesh via temptations and lusts, also spelled out by Paul in Romans 7 and Galatians 4 and 5.

That is WHY nobody is "legally" obedient. Because God looks at the whole package and when we do, we see the problem as well.

The flesh, because it is subject to lusts and temptations of the tempter is never legal, obedient, forgiven, granted Mercy or under Grace or SAVED. Why? Because the tempter operates therein!

The flesh, because of the "internal" imposition of the adversary, is ALWAYS at odds with the Spirit.

The simple lesson of Gal. 5:17

Paul takes the law a step further. A STEP that Satan and his messengers can not make. It is found in Romans 13:8-10. THIS, Satan can not do. The devil absolutely can NOT follow "The Spirit of the LAW." Believers can exactly as Paul detailed in Romans 13:8-10

In the advice of John the Apostle regarding the operations of the anti-Christ spirit, he directs:

"LOOK TO YOURSELVES" 2 John 1:8

Excellent admonition for our current time.

 

[smaller]

The Law in these matters is in fact our "ally" pointing out to us, the working of the adversary in the flesh. The Law is also used to CONDEMN and BRING WRATH on the adversaries.

So, is it our enemy? Never. The Law and the Spirit are both against murder, theft and any other sin we'd care to observe. But, we do not escape the Law's conclusions because it's not just about "us." Satan is also moved to resist God's Law (Mark 4:15) and is even empowered by the LAW, to resist. 1 Cor. 15:56 This is how Satan and devils are constructed. As resistors.

There is great POWER in the Laws of God. And that power is on the opposite side of the ledger than what most believers perceive. It's power is in raising the adversaries to show their ugly heads and to empower THEM in preparation for their final judgments and wrath.

Romans 7:
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

This is the ground where we find our 'death' to sin, because we are supposed to "see" our condition of temptations and lusts "in the flesh," which are DEMONICALLY imposed therein.

 

[JLB]

Paul's "best" example is this:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

In Paul's example there is him, as a believing child of God. AND, there is a messenger of Satan in his flesh.

• A thorn in the flesh is a Hebrew idiom for "source of irritation or frustration". This is not literal.

• Messenger of Satan: If there was given to Paul a "spirit" to literally dwell in his flesh, then how could an invisible, intangible "spirit", being buffet, [repeatedly strike Paul with blows] ? The Messenger of Satan was a human, a man of Judaism, sent by Satan to undermine Paul's message.

• The reason this "messenger" of Satan was given: Because of the abundance of revelations. This was unique to Paul.

IOW not all Christians have the abundance of revelations Paul has.

You have erroneously assigned a condition unique to the Apostle Paul, TO ALL CHRISTIANS!


JLB

 

[jocor]

Paul details, in many places, the utter futility of law keeping and also tells us exactly why.

Paul is against "law keeping" in order to be saved and or justified. He is NOT against "law keeping" out of love for YHWH and man and as a fruit of salvation (Romans 2:13; 3:31; 7:25; 8:4, 7, etc.).

 

[smaller]

Paul is against "law keeping" in order to be saved and or justified. He is NOT against "law keeping" out of love for YHWH and man and as a fruit of salvation (Romans 2:13; 3:31; 7:25; 8:4, 7, etc.).

Here's the lesson of the laws:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

No matter what anybody does or claims, it is impossible to make that which is contrary comply to the Spirit, because of the above.

The flesh is against the Spirit. There is no way around this conclusion.

 

[smaller]

IOW not all Christians have the abundance of revelations Paul has.
You have erroneously assigned a condition unique to the Apostle Paul, TO ALL CHRISTIANS!
JLB

Yes, all suffer and are put under sin in the flesh. Sin is of the devil. There is no way to avoid the same conclusion Paul has regarding the contrary relationship between the flesh and the Spirit, and this contrary condition exists because of lusts and temptations of/in the flesh via the tempter in the flesh, JUST LIKE PAUL. Paul was no different in this regards than any of us.

I might even observe that 'resisting' this exposure is a sign, sent from God. An open revealing, if you please.

 

[jocor]

Here's the lesson of the laws:

Galatians 5:
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

No matter what anybody does or claims, it is impossible to make that which is contrary comply to the Spirit, because of the above.

The flesh is against the Spirit. There is no way around this conclusion.

I totally agree that the flesh is against the Spirit, but the victory is found in verse 16:

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
​

When we walk in the Spirit, we can indeed obey the Law. The flesh/carnal mind cannot subject itself to the Law, but the Spirit can (Romans 8:7). This agrees with Ezekiel 36:26-27 as he describes the New Covenant;

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.​

The carnal man led by the flesh cannot experience this. Neither can the carnal Christian who refuses to obey the Law. When we yield ourselves to the Spirit (walk in the Spirit) as it tries to move us to obey the Law, we will have victory commensurate with the amount of yielding we do.

 

[smaller]

I totally agree that the flesh is against the Spirit, but the victory is found in verse 16:

This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
​

When we walk in the Spirit, we can indeed obey the Law.

Whether you can see the circular logic you are employing or not isn't all that relevant. You focus on part 1, and miss part 2, failing to see that it also applies. Like this:

Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh

BOTH of these conditions apply. Believers walking in the Spirit STILL HAVE the lusts and temptations of the flesh, regardless. They may not "fulfil" them, but they still HAVE them.

It's a simple, but critical mistake. To fail to see this contrariness still exists is to fall headlong into hypocrisy. That which is and remains contrary to the Spirit, IS CONTRARY, period. There is no way to remedy this other than to be HONEST about this contrary position, that it's contrary with every believer, to the Spirit.