The Law of God. OT. Applicable Today?

[JLB]

yes. Torah(not 'law') flows daily from God, and it is not a can or worms ..... it is LIFE for the soul, healing for the bones , instructions , guidance, and nurturing intimately from the Creator of the Universe to and with those who abide in Him in Christ Jesus!

Great word.

For man does not live (have life) by bread alone, but by every (Rhema) that proceeds out of the mouth of God.


This does not mean we are under the law of Moses.

We are under The laws of God's Kingdom.

The law of The Lord, the law of Christ.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Maybe you'll understand it better, if you give a little thought to what "this" is in your question...

If it is God's will that we don't commit adultery, then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it is God's will that we don't commit murder, then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it is God's will that we honor our fathers and mothers, then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it is God's will that we shouldn't worship idols, then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it is God's will that we should not rape, then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it's God's will that we love Him with all our hearts (Deu. 6:5), then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?
If it's God's will that we love our neighbors as ourselves (Lev. 19:18), then why did He have His only begotten Son put to death?

Let me know if you figure it out.

The TOG​

Is it God's will that we stone our neighbor to death for violating the Sabbath?

15 Work shall be done for six days, but the seventh is the Sabbath of rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Exodus 31:15


JLB

 

[Edward]

Aw, come on. Are you all saying that we done't have to obey the 10 commandments? (Deborah & Gary). Every chapter of the Bible is about obedience, walking in love towards our brothers and god. Did god change? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not. Obedience is not works sister.

King David? He ate the shewbread which is only lawful for priests to eat, and committed murder and adultery, yet was called a man after Gods own heart? how is this possible?

 

[Deborah13]

From my understanding the Torah was written for the Jewish people. It falls under the Old Covenant.

If I'm wrong, someone correct me.
.

If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying Torah is the Law of Moses.
Is that correct?

Is the old covenant Moses Law?

 

[Deborah13]

Aw, come on. Are you all saying that we done't have to obey the 10 commandments? (Deborah & Gary). Every chapter of the Bible is about obedience, walking in love towards our brothers and god. Did god change? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not. Obedience is not works sister.

Please don't put words in my mouth. Please address my post and tell me what you disagree with.

 

[for_his_glory]

Was it not the laws that brought us to the knowledge of sin and was made a curse if not followed to the letter? By that of the new covenant of grace we are set free from the bondage/curse of the law as grace now pardons us while mercy loves us and has redeemed us from the curse as we are no longer bound under the burden of its yoke. Gods will has always been love from the beginning of creation even to that of the coming of the New Jerusalem.

 

[for_his_glory]

BTW the ten commandments are part of the 613 Mosaic laws and not a separate set of laws.

 

[Deborah13]

Was it not the laws that brought us to the knowledge of sin and was made a curse if not followed to the letter? By that of the new covenant of grace we are set free from the bondage/curse of the law as grace now pardons us while mercy loves us and has redeemed us from the curse as we are no longer bound under the burden of its yoke. Gods will has always been love from the beginning of creation even to that of the coming of the New Jerusalem.

BTW the ten commandments are part of the 613 Mosaic laws and not a separate set of laws.

I agree with both of these posts.

We also know that before the 10 Commandments were given to Moses that at least some if not all of these moral laws already existed. Cain was in sin when he murdered Abel.

Noah and his sons had one wife each.
By the Law of Moses a man can have more than one wife. Hmm....

 

[TOG]

Do you keep this commandment?

Deuteronomy 22
11 “You shall not wear a garment of different sorts, such as wool and linen mixed together.

The word "linen" has more than one meaning in modern English. In this particular instance, it refers to a fabric that is made from flax. If you can show me a garment that is woven from wool and flax, then I will avoid wearing it.

How do gentiles get around this next commandment?


Deuteronomy 7
1 “When the Lord your God brings you into the land which you go to possess, and has cast out many nations before you, the Hittites and the Girgashites and the Amorites and the Canaanites and the Perizzites and the Hivites and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than you,
2 and when the Lord your God delivers them over to you, you shall conquer them and utterly destroy them. You shall make no covenant with them nor show mercy to them.
3 Nor shall you make marriages with them. You shall not give your daughter to their son, nor take their daughter for your son.

Let's see... How can we avoid marrying Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites , Canaananites, Perrizzites, Hivites or Jebusites? Most of my friends are married, but none of them have married people from any of those nations. I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with the fact that those nations don't exist any more, so it would be much harder to violate that particular commandment than to keep it.

Do you make these alterations to your clothing?


Numbers 15
37 Again the Lord spoke to Moses, saying,
38 “Speak to the children of Israel: Tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a blue thread in the tassels of the corners.
39 And you shall have the tassel, that you may look upon it and remember all the commandments of the Lord and do them, and that you may not follow the harlotry to which your own heart and your own eyes are inclined,
40 and that you may remember and do all My commandments, and be holy for your God.

That commandment is repeated a few chapters later, with a little more detail...

You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself. (Deu. 22:12 ESV)​

Do you actually have a garment that has four corners on it? Most people don't. I do have such a garment. It's called a tallit and it does indeed have tassels on all four corners with a techelet (blue) thread in each tassel. In fact, that's why I bought it - to be able to obey God's commandment.

Sorry for taking your post a little out of order, but there were three commandments that really were all about the same thing, so I put them together at the end.

Leviticus 2
13 And every offering of your grain offering you shall season with salt; you shall not allow the salt of the covenant of your God to be lacking from your grain offering. With all your offerings you shall offer salt.

Leviticus 5
17 “If a person sins, and commits any of these things which are forbidden to be done by the commandments of the Lord, though he does not know it, yet he is guilty and shall bear his iniquity.
18 And he shall bring to the priest a ram without blemish from the flock, with your valuation, as a trespass offering. So the priest shall make atonement for him regarding his ignorance in which he erred and did not know it, and it shall be forgiven him.


Leviticus 4
27 ‘If anyone of the common people sins unintentionally by doing something against any of the commandments of the Lord in anything which ought not to be done, and is guilty,
28 or if his sin which he has committed comes to his knowledge, then he shall bring as his offering a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he has committed.

All of those commandments concern sacrifices, and the answer for all of them is the same. The only places where valid sacrifices could be offered were the tabernacle and later the temple in Jerusalem. Also, the people didn't offer the sacrifices themselves. They gave the lambs, grain or other offerings to the priest and the priest made the sacrifice. Since there is neither a temple nor tabernacle where the offerings can be made, nor a functioning Aaronic priesthood, it would be a sin for us to offer sacrifices today. An interesting thing concerning sacrifices is that Jesus told people to offer sacrifices. When he healed lepers, he told them to go and show themselves to the priests to be cleansed according to the law. That involved offering a sacrifice. Why did he do that if he came to do away with them?Also, the first Christians continued to offer sacrifices while the temple still stood. Paul had made a vow and offered a sacrifice when he had completed that vow (Acts 18:18) and paid for the sacrifices for others who had made a vow (Acts 21:23-24). That last verse also says that Paul kept the law. He also told Gentiles to keep the feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread, which involved making a Passover sacrifice (I Cor. 5:8).

The TOG​

 

[Doulos Iesou]

The word "linen" has more than one meaning in modern English. In this particular instance, it refers to a fabric that is made from flax. If you can show me a garment that is woven from wool and flax, then I will avoid wearing it.



Let's see... How can we avoid marrying Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites , Canaananites, Perrizzites, Hivites or Jebusites? Most of my friends are married, but none of them have married people from any of those nations. I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with the fact that those nations don't exist any more, so it would be much harder to violate that particular commandment than to keep it.



That commandment is repeated a few chapters later, with a little more detail...

You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself. (Deu. 22:12 ESV)​

Do you actually have a garment that has four corners on it? Most people don't. I do have such a garment. It's called a tallit and it does indeed have tassels on all four corners with a techelet (blue) thread in each tassel. In fact, that's why I bought it - to be able to obey God's commandment.

Sorry for taking your post a little out of order, but there were three commandments that really were all about the same thing, so I put them together at the end.




All of those commandments concern sacrifices, and the answer for all of them is the same. The only places where valid sacrifices could be offered were the tabernacle and later the temple in Jerusalem. Also, the people didn't offer the sacrifices themselves. They gave the lambs, grain or other offerings to the priest and the priest made the sacrifice. Since there is neither a temple nor tabernacle where the offerings can be made, nor a functioning Aaronic priesthood, it would be a sin for us to offer sacrifices today. An interesting thing concerning sacrifices is that Jesus told people to offer sacrifices. When he healed lepers, he told them to go and show themselves to the priests to be cleansed according to the law. That involved offering a sacrifice. Why did he do that if he came to do away with them?Also, the first Christians continued to offer sacrifices while the temple still stood. Paul had made a vow and offered a sacrifice when he had completed that vow (Acts 18:18) and paid for the sacrifices for others who had made a vow (Acts 21:23-24). That last verse also says that Paul kept the law. He also told Gentiles to keep the feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread, which involved making a Passover sacrifice (I Cor. 5:8).

The TOG​

More important questions.

Do you keep the dietary laws as well as require circumcision? How do you regard other Christians who don't keep the feasts/other laws?

Regards,
DI

 

[Deborah13]

The word "linen" has more than one meaning in modern English. In this particular instance, it refers to a fabric that is made from flax. If you can show me a garment that is woven from wool and flax, then I will avoid wearing it.



Let's see... How can we avoid marrying Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites , Canaananites, Perrizzites, Hivites or Jebusites? Most of my friends are married, but none of them have married people from any of those nations. I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with the fact that those nations don't exist any more, so it would be much harder to violate that particular commandment than to keep it.



That commandment is repeated a few chapters later, with a little more detail...

You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself. (Deu. 22:12 ESV)​

Do you actually have a garment that has four corners on it? Most people don't. I do have such a garment. It's called a tallit and it does indeed have tassels on all four corners with a techelet (blue) thread in each tassel. In fact, that's why I bought it - to be able to obey God's commandment.

Sorry for taking your post a little out of order, but there were three commandments that really were all about the same thing, so I put them together at the end.




All of those commandments concern sacrifices, and the answer for all of them is the same. The only places where valid sacrifices could be offered were the tabernacle and later the temple in Jerusalem. Also, the people didn't offer the sacrifices themselves. They gave the lambs, grain or other offerings to the priest and the priest made the sacrifice. Since there is neither a temple nor tabernacle where the offerings can be made, nor a functioning Aaronic priesthood, it would be a sin for us to offer sacrifices today. An interesting thing concerning sacrifices is that Jesus told people to offer sacrifices. When he healed lepers, he told them to go and show themselves to the priests to be cleansed according to the law. That involved offering a sacrifice. Why did he do that if he came to do away with them?Also, the first Christians continued to offer sacrifices while the temple still stood. Paul had made a vow and offered a sacrifice when he had completed that vow (Acts 18:18) and paid for the sacrifices for others who had made a vow (Acts 21:23-24). That last verse also says that Paul kept the law. He also told Gentiles to keep the feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread, which involved making a Passover sacrifice (I Cor. 5:8).

The TOG​

TOG, please explain to me why Paul would teach non Jews to do a sacrifice for the Jewish Passover.
A celebration of their freedom from Egpyt.
A Christian's Passover Lamb is Christ. How do you suggest we sacrifice our Passover Lamb?

Paul explains what the unleavened bread is that he is speaking about in 1 Corinth. 5:8.
It is the unleavened bread of....
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

imo He is saying to keep the feast by no longer living in sin but by living in righteousness.

 

[TOG]

"This" is referencing the Torah.

If it is God's will that we follow the Torah, what was the meaning behind the crucifixion of Jesus?
.

Answer the questions I put to you, and you'll have your answer.

The TOG​

 

[BigSodaExposer]

Romans 8:2 "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death." But... Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

I feel like everything God wanted us to have in the bible. I am one of the KJV only people. I do not believe there are any lost or hidden books. Or that the KJV is merely a translation. Everything God wanted us to have is right there. There are things in the human body we don't truly understand, and you can remove those things and still get by, doesn't mean they don't have a purpose.

The bible is like an epic 3 hour movie. In the last 30 minutes, a hero appears that saves the world. But he is killed within 15 minutes creating the climax of the movie. The remaining part of the movie is the cool down and finishes off the movie. But if you do not watch the entire movie, you won't truly get the whole message.

The OT in my humble opinion, gives examples how to not live your life, and how to not worship God. Its easy for someone to say "Jesus died for your sins". But what is sin? What is iniquity? You don't truly know what sin is until you read the OT. Then as they say, your eyes will be opened to it. But you learn in the NT you are made righteous not by your following of the law but by your faith in Jesus Christ who was righteous. You also learn in the NT that Abraham was made righteous because of his faith not because his works.

Being able to connect the OT to the NT is a weird thing when I first got into reading the bible. It easier the more you read and study the bible. What I see when I read the OT is the glory of this world. The flesh. Kings, gold/bling, women. All this goes against being born again in spirit. Again, maybe God put it there as an example of what not to do. I dunno. But it is a learning experience none the less. All in all I think we have to take all of the bible in at once. As much as we humanly can hold that knowledge. And weigh it in all our decisions.

 

[Gary]

Aw, come on. Are you all saying that we done't have to obey the 10 commandments? (Deborah & Gary).

I don't know. Did I actually say that?

And there are over 600 commandments, not just 10.
.

 

[TOG]

Gary and TOG
What is the Torah?
What is Torah?

Do you both have the same definition of Torah?

The word "Torah" means "instructions" and can refer either to the Books of Moses as a whole or to the commandments found in those books.

The TOG​

 

[TOG]

TOG, please explain to me why Paul would teach non Jews to do a sacrifice for the Jewish Passover.
A celebration of their freedom from Egpyt.
A Christian's Passover Lamb is Christ. How do you suggest we sacrifice our Passover Lamb?

All I can do is point to the Scripture where he does that. You'll have to ask him why when you get the chance. The way I understand it is that Passover always pointed to Christ and now that he has come, we can understand it's meaning better and celebrate it in a deeper way than people ever could in Old Testament times.

Paul explains what the unleavened bread is that he is speaking about in 1 Corinth. 5:8.
It is the unleavened bread of....
1Co 5:8 Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

imo He is saying to keep the feast by no longer living in sin but by living in righteousness.

Exactly. He's saying it has a lot more meaning than just leaving Egypt. That doesn't mean we should abandon that festival. On the contrary, it gives us even more reason to celebrate it.

The TOG​

 

[BigSodaExposer]

I wondered that too. Jesus said the one commandment he was giving/adding was that we love each other as he love us. But what about when he says looking at a women with lust means you might as well have commit adultery? Is that Jesus giving an opinion or a commandment? Cause he says he only gave one commandment. There are many such statements from the lord of host in the old testament. Like outside the 10 commandments is what I mean.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

All I can do is point to the Scripture where he does that. You'll have to ask him why when you get the chance. The way I understand it is that Passover always pointed to Christ and now that he has come, we can understand it's meaning better and celebrate it in a deeper way than people ever could in Old Testament times.

Paul explains his reasoning. He was in Jerusalem, among Jews...

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 (ESV)

Paul himself was not under the Law, but he chose to be under it when in the presence of the Jews so as to not put a stumbling block for the gospel.

I suggest you read some more of Paul's writings, your beliefs on the matter are very dangerous.

Christians are not under the Law.

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. Romans 7:4 (ESV)

For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. Galatians 2:19 (ESV)

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18 (ESV)

Need I go on? I can cite many other Scriptures that teach this very thing.

 

[reba]

Somewhere in those OT laws and covered in the Words of Jesus about love ... it says not to drive the moderators crazy .

 

[Gary]

The word "linen" has more than one meaning in modern English. In this particular instance, it refers to a fabric that is made from flax. If you can show me a garment that is woven from wool and flax, then I will avoid wearing it.

Many clothing items today are made using flax. Would you know the difference in the material if you seen it?

Let's see... How can we avoid marrying Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites , Canaananites, Perrizzites, Hivites or Jebusites? Most of my friends are married, but none of them have married people from any of those nations. I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with the fact that those nations don't exist any more, so it would be much harder to violate that particular commandment than to keep it.

Actually anyone who marries a gentile violates this commandment.

That commandment is repeated a few chapters later, with a little more detail...

You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself. (Deu. 22:12 ESV)​

Do you actually have a garment that has four corners on it? Most people don't. I do have such a garment. It's called a tallit and it does indeed have tassels on all four corners with a techelet (blue) thread in each tassel. In fact, that's why I bought it - to be able to obey God's commandment.

Does the Earth have four corners?

All of those commandments concern sacrifices, and the answer for all of them is the same. The only places where valid sacrifices could be offered were the tabernacle and later the temple in Jerusalem. Also, the people didn't offer the sacrifices themselves. They gave the lambs, grain or other offerings to the priest and the priest made the sacrifice. Since there is neither a temple nor tabernacle where the offerings can be made, nor a functioning Aaronic priesthood, it would be a sin for us to offer sacrifices today. An interesting thing concerning sacrifices is that Jesus told people to offer sacrifices. When he healed lepers, he told them to go and show themselves to the priests to be cleansed according to the law. That involved offering a sacrifice. Why did he do that if he came to do away with them?Also, the first Christians continued to offer sacrifices while the temple still stood. Paul had made a vow and offered a sacrifice when he had completed that vow (Acts 18:18) and paid for the sacrifices for others who had made a vow (Acts 21:23-24). That last verse also says that Paul kept the law.

He also told Gentiles to keep the feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread, which involved making a Passover sacrifice (I Cor. 5:8).

Really? Paul actually states that we need to make an animal sacrifice?
.