The Law of God. OT. Applicable Today?

[BigSodaExposer]

Paul explains his reasoning. He was in Jerusalem, among Jews...

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 (ESV)

Paul himself was not under the Law, but he chose to be under it when in the presence of the Jews so as to not put a stumbling block for the gospel.

I suggest you read some more of Paul's writings, your beliefs on the matter are very dangerous.

Christians are not under the Law.

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. Romans 7:4 (ESV)

For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. Galatians 2:19 (ESV)

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18 (ESV)

Need I go on? I can cite many other Scriptures that teach this very thing.

You seem pretty knowledgeable in scripture. Can you explain this to me? 1 Corinthians 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind," So if one is under Christ's new covenant, are those Christ's "laws". ?

 

[Gary]

Was it not the laws that brought us to the knowledge of sin and was made a curse if not followed to the letter? By that of the new covenant of grace we are set free from the bondage/curse of the law as grace now pardons us while mercy loves us and has redeemed us from the curse as we are no longer bound under the burden of its yoke. Gods will has always been love from the beginning of creation even to that of the coming of the New Jerusalem.

BTW the ten commandments are part of the 613 Mosaic laws and not a separate set of laws.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

You seem pretty knowledgeable in scripture. Can you explain this to me? 1 Corinthians 6:9 "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind," So if one is under Christ's new covenant, are those Christ's "laws". ?

Sure thing brother!

When I say we are not under Law, we are referring to the Torah.. the Law of Moses. Christ's Law is the summation of those laws which is to do all things in Love.

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Romans 13:8-10 (ESV)

Here is what I posted earlier. By loving, we fulfill the purpose of the Mosaic Laws, so now Law keeping (in the OT sense) such as Circumcision or dietary laws count for nothing, but rather faith working through love is what matters now.

Also, in that Scripture you posted there, the key section is where it says, "and such were some of you." God cleanses us, not by some kind of outward washing of water, but by the washing regeneration of the Spirit that renews our heart so that we can bear fruit for God. When we were given the Law, we couldn't do it because we were weakened by our sinful flesh. However, now that we have been joined to Christ, we can fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law by walking according to the Spirit who works by faith.

For those of us who belong to God, we have the Holy Spirit working in us to conform us into the image of God's Son. He has given us grace to not only be saved, but be transformed to be able to actually practice righteousness in all humility, so that the glory goes to the Father who works in us both to will and work for his good pleasure.

This is a LOT of Scriptural doctrine packed into a short post. Please let me know if you have any questions regarding what I have said.

Blessings,
DI

 

[reba]

This is one of THOSE topics... remember the TOS guys..

2.4: . . . Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster. Admin

 

[Doulos Iesou]

Paul explains his reasoning. He was in Jerusalem, among Jews in that Acts passage, which then relates to this insight for Paul's ministry.

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 (ESV)

Paul himself was not under the Law, but he chose to be under it when in the presence of the Jews so as to not put a stumbling block for the gospel.

In all humility, I suggest you read some more of Paul's writings, your beliefs on the matter can be very dangerous. I say this only out of concern for your heart brother.

Christians are not under the Law.

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. Romans 7:4 (ESV)

For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. Galatians 2:19 (ESV)

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18 (ESV)

I can cite many other Scriptures that teach this very thing, should you need it.

Edited: I fixed some points that were a little more contentious.

 

[Doulos Iesou]

This is one of THOSE topics... remember the TOS guys..

2.4: . . . Do not make an inflammatory remark just to get a response. Address issues not personalities. Respect where people are in their spiritual walk, and respect all others in general. Respect where others are in their spiritual walk, do not disrupt the flow of discussion or act in a way that affects others negatively including when debating doctrinal issues, in the defense of the Christian faith, and in offering unwelcome spiritual advice.

Not necessarily directed at the last poster. Admin

Thanks for the reminder reba, I took the initiative to fix one of my posts that could have been seen to be little bit more contentious.

Blessings,
DI

 

[Deborah13]

The word "linen" has more than one meaning in modern English. In this particular instance, it refers to a fabric that is made from flax. If you can show me a garment that is woven from wool and flax, then I will avoid wearing it.



Let's see... How can we avoid marrying Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites , Canaananites, Perrizzites, Hivites or Jebusites? Most of my friends are married, but none of them have married people from any of those nations. I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with the fact that those nations don't exist any more, so it would be much harder to violate that particular commandment than to keep it.



That commandment is repeated a few chapters later, with a little more detail...

You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself. (Deu. 22:12 ESV)​

Do you actually have a garment that has four corners on it? Most people don't. I do have such a garment. It's called a tallit and it does indeed have tassels on all four corners with a techelet (blue) thread in each tassel. In fact, that's why I bought it - to be able to obey God's commandment.

Sorry for taking your post a little out of order, but there were three commandments that really were all about the same thing, so I put them together at the end.




All of those commandments concern sacrifices, and the answer for all of them is the same. The only places where valid sacrifices could be offered were the tabernacle and later the temple in Jerusalem. Also, the people didn't offer the sacrifices themselves. They gave the lambs, grain or other offerings to the priest and the priest made the sacrifice. Since there is neither a temple nor tabernacle where the offerings can be made, nor a functioning Aaronic priesthood, it would be a sin for us to offer sacrifices today. An interesting thing concerning sacrifices is that Jesus told people to offer sacrifices. When he healed lepers, he told them to go and show themselves to the priests to be cleansed according to the law. That involved offering a sacrifice. Why did he do that if he came to do away with them?Also, the first Christians continued to offer sacrifices while the temple still stood. Paul had made a vow and offered a sacrifice when he had completed that vow (Acts 18:18) and paid for the sacrifices for others who had made a vow (Acts 21:23-24). That last verse also says that Paul kept the law. He also told Gentiles to keep the feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread, which involved making a Passover sacrifice (I Cor. 5:8).

The TOG​

Yes one can buy a true tallit even today. The Orthodox Jews mostly wear them everyday. A tallit is not a prayer shawl. Why would someone need to be reminded not to look at their own lustful heart and mind when they are in prayer?
This garment is to be worn everyday so that when the wearer looks at the tzitzit they will be reminded to keep their thoughts and eyes on the Lord. Just like the phylactries.

Num 15:38 `Speak unto the sons of Israel, and thou hast said unto them, and they have made for themselves fringes on the skirts of their garments, to their generations, and they have put on the fringe of the skirt a ribbon of blue,
Num 15:39 and it hath been to you for a fringe, and ye have seen it, and have remembered all the commands of Yehovah, and have done them, and ye search not after your heart, and after your eyes, after which ye are going a-whoring;
Num 15:40 so that ye remember and have done all My commands, and ye have been holy to your God;

Jesus fulfilled this law too.
Mat 9:20 and lo, a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, having come to him behind, did touch the fringe of his garments,
Mat 9:21 for she said within herself, `If only I may touch his garment, I shall be saved.'

imo....
Why did God protect them from themselves in this way? Because they didn't have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (the writing of the law of God written on their minds and hearts).

The Messiah is Torah.

 

[TOG]

Many clothing items today are made using flax. Would you know the difference in the material if you seen it?

Yes, I think I would know the difference. I always check to see what clothes are made of before I buy them, and I've never run across anything made from flax. Most of my clothes are pure cotton. The only ones that are made of mixed fabrics are either made from only synthetic materials or from cotton and synthetics. Nothing from wool and linen. In fact, nothing containing linen at all.

Actually anyone who marries a gentile violates this commandment.

Actually, the verse only specifies 7 nations. If you want to see it as a general principal and extend it further than that, then by all means feel free to do so for yourself, but others are not bound by your extensions of the Torah. Besides, a much more logical extension would be not to marry unbelievers, and that is repeated for Gentile Christians in the New Testament.

Does the Earth have four corners?

You're avoiding the question and completely ignoring my response to your question. That's not a good way to make a point.

Really? Paul actually states that we need to make an animal sacrifice?

He told the Gentiles in Corinth to keep Passover and Unleavened Bread, and that involves making a sacrifice, so the answer is yes.

The TOG​

 

[Doulos Iesou]

He told the Gentiles in Corinth to keep Passover and Unleavened Bread, and that involves making a sacrifice, so the answer is yes.

The TOG​

A little context helps.

Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump? Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. Let us therefore celebrate the festival, not with the old leaven, the leaven of malice and evil, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth. 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 (ESV)

Paul is using this as a metaphor. He is asking us to get rid of our hypocrisy and boasting, and uses the metaphor of bread and the Passover. He tells us to celebrate the festival, but with what? The sacrificing of goats? No, with the "unleavened bread of sincerity and truth." I have to go, but I can speak more to this later.

Blessings,
DI

 

[JLB]

I agree with both of these posts.

We also know that before the 10 Commandments were given to Moses that at least some if not all of these moral laws already existed. Cain was in sin when he murdered Abel.

Noah and his sons had one wife each.
By the Law of Moses a man can have more than one wife. Hmm....

Try to remember that Noah and his sons had some heavy competition with the sons of God situation and all.

JLB

 

[Gary]

Really? Paul actually states that we need to make an animal sacrifice?
.

He told the Gentiles in Corinth to keep Passover and Unleavened Bread, and that involves making a sacrifice, so the answer is yes.

The TOG​

I don't even know what to say to that.
.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

It's not the sacrifice of bulls or goats anymore, or ever, God desired, as He says in Psalms and other places ...

Psalm 50:1-17
Amplified Bible (AMP)

Psalm 50
A Psalm of Asaph.
1 The Mighty One, God, the Lord, speaks and calls the earth from the rising of the sun to its setting.

2 Out of Zion, the perfection of beauty, God shines forth.

3 Our God comes and does not keep silence; a fire devours before Him, and round about Him a mighty tempest rages.

4 He calls to the heavens above and to the earth, that He may judge His people:

5 Gather together to Me My saints [those who have found grace in My sight], those who have made a covenant with Me by sacrifice.

6 And the heavens declare His righteousness (rightness and justice), for God, He is judge. Selah [pause, and calmly think of that]!

7 Hear, O My people, and I will speak; O Israel, I will testify to you and against you: I am God, your God.

8 I do not reprove you for your sacrifices; your burnt offerings are continually before Me.

9 I will accept no bull from your house nor he-goat out of your folds.

10 For every beast of the forest is Mine, and the cattle upon a thousand hills or upon the mountains where thousands are.

11 I know and am acquainted with all the birds of the mountains, and the wild animals of the field are Mine and are with Me, in My mind.

12 If I were hungry, I would not tell you, for the world and its fullness are Mine.

13 Shall I eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats?

14 Offer to God the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and pay your vows to the Most High,

15 And call on Me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you shall honor and glorify Me.

16 But to the wicked, God says: What right have you to recite My statutes or take My covenant or pledge on your lips,
17 Seeing that you hate instruction and correction and cast My words behind you [discarding them]?

23 He who brings an offering of praise and thanksgiving honors and glorifies Me; and he who orders his way aright [who prepares the way that I may show him], to him I will demonstrate the salvation of God.

 

[JLB]

The word "linen" has more than one meaning in modern English. In this particular instance, it refers to a fabric that is made from flax. If you can show me a garment that is woven from wool and flax, then I will avoid wearing it.



Let's see... How can we avoid marrying Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites , Canaananites, Perrizzites, Hivites or Jebusites? Most of my friends are married, but none of them have married people from any of those nations. I'm not sure, but I think it might have something to do with the fact that those nations don't exist any more, so it would be much harder to violate that particular commandment than to keep it.



That commandment is repeated a few chapters later, with a little more detail...

You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself. (Deu. 22:12 ESV)​

Do you actually have a garment that has four corners on it? Most people don't. I do have such a garment. It's called a tallit and it does indeed have tassels on all four corners with a techelet (blue) thread in each tassel. In fact, that's why I bought it - to be able to obey God's commandment.

Sorry for taking your post a little out of order, but there were three commandments that really were all about the same thing, so I put them together at the end.




All of those commandments concern sacrifices, and the answer for all of them is the same. The only places where valid sacrifices could be offered were the tabernacle and later the temple in Jerusalem. Also, the people didn't offer the sacrifices themselves. They gave the lambs, grain or other offerings to the priest and the priest made the sacrifice. Since there is neither a temple nor tabernacle where the offerings can be made, nor a functioning Aaronic priesthood, it would be a sin for us to offer sacrifices today. An interesting thing concerning sacrifices is that Jesus told people to offer sacrifices. When he healed lepers, he told them to go and show themselves to the priests to be cleansed according to the law. That involved offering a sacrifice. Why did he do that if he came to do away with them?Also, the first Christians continued to offer sacrifices while the temple still stood. Paul had made a vow and offered a sacrifice when he had completed that vow (Acts 18:18) and paid for the sacrifices for others who had made a vow (Acts 21:23-24). That last verse also says that Paul kept the law. He also told Gentiles to keep the feast of Passover and Unleavened Bread, which involved making a Passover sacrifice (I Cor. 5:8).

The TOG​

All very good reasons why the law of Moses was written for the children of Israel living in the land of Israel.

Unless you chose to be circumcised and move to Israel then the law of Moses does not apply to you.


JLB

 

[TOG]

I don't even know what to say to that.
.

It's one of those things that are in the Bible, but people don't like to admit because it doesn't fit with their theology.

The TOG​

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

All very good reasons why the law of Moses was written for the children of Israel living in the land of Israel.
Unless you chose to be circumcised and move to Israel then the law of Moses does not apply to you.
JLB

Sorry, the membership is much more closed than that. Even if someone went to those lengths, they could not get in. There are very strict rules there about who can and who cannot be a part of Israel.(I don't know them all, nor even a small part of them, but it is very hard to gain membership there, for gentiles.

However, it may be in parts of Israel, all you have to do is be in the area, and the law of Moses may be applied.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

It's one of those things that are in the Bible, but people don't like to admit because it doesn't fit with their theology.

The TOG​

if the theology 101 course is not passed with flying colors

 

[JLB]

I don't even know what to say to that.
.

There are some really unbelievable doctrines floating around.

If you really want to learn about where many of these doctrines that Messianic Judaism teaches, then you can go to a site called: The Jerusalem Council or Psalms 119 ministries.

 

[JLB]

Sorry, the membership is much more closed than that. Even if someone went to those lengths, they could not get in. There are very strict rules there about who can and who cannot be a part of Israel.(I don't know them all, nor even a small part of them, but it is very hard to gain membership there, for gentiles.

However, it may be in parts of Israel, all you have to do is be in the area, and the law of Moses may be applied.

Yes sir.

Which is why Gentiles living in America are not obligated to uphold the law of Moses.

JLB

 

[JLB]

Paul explains his reasoning. He was in Jerusalem, among Jews...

To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law. To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law. To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some. 1 Corinthians 9:20-22 (ESV)

Paul himself was not under the Law, but he chose to be under it when in the presence of the Jews so as to not put a stumbling block for the gospel.

I suggest you read some more of Paul's writings, your beliefs on the matter are very dangerous.

Christians are not under the Law.

Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. Romans 7:4 (ESV)

For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. Galatians 2:19 (ESV)

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:18 (ESV)

Need I go on? I can cite many other Scriptures that teach this very thing.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[His_nee (Jeff)]

Yes sir.
Which is why Gentiles living in America are not obligated to uphold the law of Moses.
JLB

I don't see any of the earthly regulations today as any reason/obligation/UNobligation for Jews nor for gentiles to uphold or not uphold anything other than what God's Word says to do or not to do, as pertains to what God Almighty says.

And it is written in Scripture that even ignorant gentiles who have not torah can and do OR may and can do still uphold torah as shown when they do what is right as God says it.(Romans?)

(maybe Galatians)