Bible Study The Law of God - The Law of Moses - The Law

[reba]

Reading gen 47 one can clearly see the LAW was for the benefit of the people, Egypt, everybody.

 

[Elijah674]

I recently bought two books so that I can study how the law was understood by the New Testament authors, both from Frank Thielman, and they are a very thorough examination of each use of the word law in the NT:

Paul & the Law: A Contextual Approach

The Law and the New Testament: The Question of Continuity

I think we should take advantage of others, like us, who have done such studies before us, and Frank Thielman provides some invaluable resources for such a study.

If you will forgive a short rant, one thing I've realized though is this: When our understanding of the Word grows and of who Jesus is sometimes we have to fight our intellect, we experience angst, and in some circumstances can even be shaken by what me must confront or hurdles we must jump in the path of our understanding.

However if we take what we "believe" beyond study - detatch ourselves from the almost insatiable clinging to study - and actually live the Christian life (and emphasize things study cannot accomplish for or in us: prayer, communion, faith, good works, and fellowship) then our heart might also see our own motives for wanting to understand the Scriptures in the way we do, and in so doing we might experience something we could never obtain through mere study: and that is a true spiritual understanding of the truth.

I'll be the first to admit that recent studies in this section have challenged me, but what it forced me to do is to consider everything, beyond just who has what perspective and what sounds more convincing, to evaluating what impact it makes in who I am before God. When I did that it stripped away some preconceptions yet it also strengthened some of the most spiritually deep-rooted things and convictions in me.

I realized sometimes forums are not a good medium at all for arguements in certain circumstances, and I hardly could see the apostles ever subjecting themselves to whimsical public opinion in such a way as we do on forums (imagine is the Epistles were written on forums... and subjected to endless ridicule from everyone with an opinion), but at the same time it can be a friendly community in which to share ideas and study the truths of God, if done in the right manner.

I have matured to a point to where I have been pushed to go out and live my Christian life more actively in the real world and perhaps even distance myself from (what can be for me - when I am lazy) "idle" forum discussion, and I have come to value recently more than ever the call to wisdom and knowledge (not head knowledge but heart, experiential klnowledge) of the woman in Proverbs 8.

I suppose I said all that to say: study the law, study the Gospel; study works, study faith; study judgement, study mercy; study justice, study grace; study life, study death; study the condition of mankind, study the person of Christ; in all things though I beg everyone not to make your understanding of the Bible a pharisaical knowledge, but rather make it a sprititual undertaking. Doctrines can be spun until you've created your own section (defintion of a denomination) of understanding, but denominations don't even exist except to catergorize how people approach the real unchanging truth of God's word. Let us never confuse the two.

So I guess the trigger for what I've said, in this case, is how the law is relevant to us. If the law is to be our all in all, we are in sad condition. If Christ is to be our all in all, when we have hope. But Christ is both law and Gospel, grace and truth, willing and doing unto his people. And all his sheep who hear his voice obey. Walk the narrow line, hold on to one thing without letting of another, test everything, hold on to the good.

I hope someone understood, because I can't think of another way to say what I've just said at the moment.

May God bless you and give you understanding,

~Josh

???? 'i' think that what you have summed up is the COVERING OVER THE ARK. The Eternal Gospel of the Godhead (Rev. 14:6) The MERCY SEAT, with Christ being the saved ones LOVING TOP PRIORITY. Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9. Their [MOTIVE] of Born Again LOVE.. for ones STRIVING FOR OBEDIENCE!

--Elijah

 

[Elijah674]

Nathan, I did give you scripture to study. haha j/k

You stated there is a law inside the ark and outside the ark, I gave you scripture that states they are the one and same.

How can we study the difference when that difference doesn't exist?

Well Nate, is there way for God's 'Word' to reach some ones?? The Word of God says:....


Gods test! Their Eternal Law of Isa. 8:20 and it's location, with Moses ordinances also with a documented location, and written by him in a book.

Exod. 25

[16] And thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee. (The TESTIMONY)
[17] And thou shalt make a mercy seat of pure gold: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof.
[18] And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them, in the two ends of the mercy seat.
[19] And make one cherub on the one end, and the other cherub on the other end: even of the mercy seat shall ye make the cherubims on the two ends thereof.
[20] And the cherubims shall stretch forth their wings on high, covering the mercy seat with their wings, and their faces shall look one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubims be.
[21] And thou shalt put the mercy seat above upon the ark; and in the ark thou shalt put the testimony that I shall give thee.

Deut.31

[9] And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.
....
[16] And the LORD said unto Moses, Behold, thou shalt sleep with thy fathers; and this people will rise up, and go a whoring after the gods of the strangers of the land, whither they go to be among them, and will forsake me, and break my covenant which I have made with them.

[17] Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide my face from them, and they shall be devoured, and many evils and troubles shall befall them; so that they will say in that day. Are not these evils come upon us, because our God is not among us?


[24] And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished,
[25] That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying,
[26] Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

Deut.

[1] At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
[2] And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.
[3] And I made an ark of shittim wood, and hewed two tables of stone like unto the first, and went up into the mount, having the two tables in mine hand.
[4] And he wrote on the tables, according to the first writing, the ten commandments, which the LORD spake unto you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly: and the LORD gave them unto me.

1 Kings 8
[6] And the priests brought in the ark of the covenant of the LORD unto his place, into the oracle of the house, to the most holy place, even under the wings of the cherubims.
[7] For the cherubims spread forth their two wings over the place of the ark, and the cherubims covered the ark and the staves thereof above.
[8] And they drew out the staves, that the ends of the staves were seen out in the holy place before the oracle, and they were not seen without: and there they are unto this day.
[9] There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with .. '

Later we see Heb 9 having Aaron's rod that buddeth included in the Ark.

[1] Then verily the [[first covenant had also ordinances]] of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary.
[2] For there was a tabernacle made; the first, wherein was the candlestick, and the table, and the shewbread; which is called the sanctuary. (see Psalms 77:13)
[3] And after the second veil, the tabernacle which is called the Holiest of all;
[4] Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant;


Rev. 11 (Matt. 24:21- on time!)

[18] And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
[19] And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Eccl. 12
[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
[14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Judged by BOOKS! Rev. 20:12 LAW! Christ brings His reward with Him! Rev. 22:12
(so one thing is for sure mankind is JUDGED before Christ comes again as far as being saved or lost!)

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Well, where do I begin. Obviously this "study" will not be a study. Although, in retrospect, I wish I would have not deemed it a study as such. I wanted to discuss, from a Biblical perspective, rooted and grounded in context, the "law" as it is so called. We can all "study" this on our own. I wanted this to be a time of fellowship, understanding one another, that EACH one of us is solely dependent on the Lord for our right standing before God, and just simply worship through our communion of the spiritual bread that is Christ.

I never have understood the need of man to bicker. I have never understood the need of man to prejudge. I have never understood the need of man to to make excuses.

Can we 'wipe' the slate clean? Can we just kind of start over, now that our flesh has had a chance to rear its ugly head?

Gal 5:13-26 For you were called to freedom, brothers. Only do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole law is fulfilled in one word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."

But if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another. But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.

But if you are led(?) by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Listen. Please. When this started going downhill, I thought "whats the use, we always end up fighting over this". Then I realized the words of OUR Lord;

Mat 6:24-34 "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing? Look at the birds of the air: they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?

And which of you by being anxious can add a single hour to his span of life? And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

Therefore do not be anxious, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. But seek first the kingdom of God and his righteousness, and all these things will be added to you. "Therefore do not be anxious about tomorrow, for tomorrow will be anxious for itself. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

Scratching your head about why this passage came to mind? He starts the passage out with the fact that we cannot serve two 'masters'. Paul reiterates this in Romans. We have to choose if we will allow the flesh to govern our life, for example food, clothing, money, and then the other things as noted by Paul in Galatians. Or if we will choose to simply seek the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

What we were doing is seeking the flesh side of things. We were seeking to try and make the 'other guy' believe what we do, or else tell him he is wrong. We were not seeking the kingdom...

So why call it quits? Are we going to allow the fact that we have strong beliefs, our flesh, govern our ability to fellowship around our Lord and Savior? Are we going to walk in the flesh, doing the defiling things of the flesh, and not walk in the freedom of the Spirit loving each other? Have we so easily forgotten what love is? I beg you brothers! Stop! Who in here denounces the righteousness that comes from Christ through faith, apart from the works of the law? Anyone? Then why do we fight among ourselves???

I do not care how we 'study', as long as it is around fellowship. Indeed, this can be ALL looked at through the fellowship of Christ if we will just denounce the working of the flesh in us. There is no need, not with the abundance of resources placed before us, that we should say that this is something to "agree to disagree on". This topic, this discussion, is CENTRAL to faith. For if we cannot agree in the Words of God, then who here has faith that does not proceed from them?

I am not asking us to look at other sources. There is plenty of wisdom right in front of us, all we have to do is look at it.

Do I suppose this plea is going to change the hearts of the ones on this forum? No. But God can. And if anyone decides he has been told of by Christ to fellowship by the breaking of Spiritual bread, then I would truly love to commune and serve in the capacity that God has gifted me in. But I will not do so in an unworthy manner.

 

[Nathan]

I guess this whole 'word' study is what might have thrown this all off track?

So lets skip that. It does not take a rocket scientist to figure out if words mean the same thing or not, just a little desire to dig. The resources for that are plentiful.

So lets go on, I do want to start at the beginning and work my way through. This is not a discussion about a specific law or ordinance. I really want this to be about the whole of the matter, not just one thing here or there.

With that in mind. Is it true, or is it not, that there were two separate places that written 'documents' were placed on/in the ark of the covenant? If you choose to answer this question, in keeping with the theme of the forum please at least provide book, chapter, and verses. Better yet, the best thing to do is include the full context of the passage that gives answer to the above question.

I can promise, I am not trying to steer us in any direction but simply trying to keep order. I want there to be freedom in the discussion, but lets all stay on the same track.

 

[Who Says]

There are some that mistakenly believe that Christ did away with the Law of God in favor of grace. I think most realize that is not so. I am going to make some straight comments and see how they sit with those of you before I offer their scriptural support.

(1) Christ only did away with the hand written document consisting of decrees that was written against the flesh.

(2) The actual Law of God is spiritual and can only be kept spiritually.

(3) When we try to bring that Law into the flesh by letter the Law becomes weak by the flesh and we corrupt that Law.

(4) One is not under that Old hand written Law only if they walk by spirit so as to try not to sin.

(5) Whether or not one observes that Old hand written Law knowingly, anyone who walks after the flesh and sins uncaringly has put their own self back under that Law and that Law yet judges them.

I thought perhaps I would throw those comments out as discussion points. I would welcome anyone else to suggest other discussion points also that they see.

 

[Elijah674]

There are some that mistakenly believe that Christ did away with the Law of God in favor of grace. I think most realize that is not so. I am going to make some straight comments and see how they sit with those of you before I offer their scriptural support.

(1) Christ only did away with the hand written document consisting of decrees that was written against the flesh.

(2) The actual Law of God is spiritual and can only be kept spiritually.

(3) When we try to bring that Law into the flesh by letter the Law becomes weak by the flesh and we corrupt that Law.

(4) One is not under that Old hand written Law only if they walk by spirit so as to try not to sin.

(5) Whether or not one observes that Old hand written Law knowingly, anyone who walks after the flesh and sins uncaringly has put their own self back under that Law and that Law yet judges them.

I thought perhaps I would throw those comments out as discussion points. I would welcome anyone else to suggest other discussion points also that they see.

Are you saying (posting!) that the execution of one man who touched that Ark that God warned not to do so & who God actually on the spot executed, would now today be allowed of God to do away with not only the Ark itself but FINISH OFF THE ETERNAL COVENANT? Heb. 13:20 (as is done by most here today) If so? this subject will find why Obadiah 1:16 will fill hell with such ones! 2 Sam. 6:6

And the flesh after Acts was what??? Acts 5 on the New Covenant side finds two such ones also struck DEAD on the spot for such foolishness as that of lieing to the Holy Ghost in [the spirit] of things! The Eternal Covenant was still there in other DEATH DOCUMENTED of Eternity Judgement! And that was only two liars, that time. Rev. 17:1-5 finds bunch's! Rev. 11:18-19 claiming 'spiritual' NO LAW 's'alvation!

One best find who Christ God IS before this study goes on further! Heb. 13:8-9! And ETERNAL Gospel!

--Elijah

 

[Who Says]

Are you saying (posting!) that the execution of one man who touched that Ark that God warned not to do so & who God actually on the spot executed, would now today be allowed of God to do away with not only the Ark itself but FINISH OFF THE ETERNAL COVENANT? Heb. 13:20 (as is done by most here today) If so? this subject will find why Obadiah 1:16 will fill hell with such ones! 2 Sam. 6:6

And the flesh after Acts was what??? Acts 5 on the New Covenant side finds two such ones also struck DEAD on the spot for such foolishness as that of lieing to the Holy Ghost in [the spirit] of things! The Eternal Covenant was still there in other DEATH DOCUMENTED of Eternity Judgement! And that was only two liars, that time. Rev. 17:1-5 finds bunch's! Rev. 11:18-19 claiming 'spiritual' NO LAW 's'alvation!

One best find who Christ God IS before this study goes on further! Heb. 13:8-9! And ETERNAL Gospel!

--Elijah

You have not given me enough to know for certain whether you see or do not see the spiritual fulfillment of that which you describe.

However, know that I am not one who says the Law of God has been abolished.

The touching unworthily of the ark of the covenant compares to self proclaimed members of Christ's body who have not really been called of God to reign as kings and priests with Christ in the New Covenant. It is these ones who unworthily touch that ark that do not realize they actually work for Satan to tear down God's work in this earth. Yet they have a bounty of twisted scriptural understanding through which they recommend themselves.

I will not comment more on what you said until I am comfortable I understand how you apply it in your mind.

 

[Nathan]

Are you saying (posting!) that the execution of one man who touched that Ark that God warned not to do so & who God actually on the spot executed, would now today be allowed of God to do away with not only the Ark itself but FINISH OFF THE ETERNAL COVENANT? Heb. 13:20 (as is done by most here today) If so? this subject will find why Obadiah 1:16 will fill hell with such ones! 2 Sam. 6:6

And the flesh after Acts was what??? Acts 5 on the New Covenant side finds two such ones also struck DEAD on the spot for such foolishness as that of lieing to the Holy Ghost in [the spirit] of things! The Eternal Covenant was still there in other DEATH DOCUMENTED of Eternity Judgement! And that was only two liars, that time. Rev. 17:1-5 finds bunch's! Rev. 11:18-19 claiming 'spiritual' NO LAW 's'alvation!

One best find who Christ God IS before this study goes on further! Heb. 13:8-9! And ETERNAL Gospel!

--Elijah

I think your right. I think where the 'muddy' water enters this pure life giving stream is at the point of understanding who the "Christ" is. I think that we would all find that there are varying beliefs of just who He is. And if that were so, then it is no wonder why we cannot find common ground on what the law is.

 

[Who Says]

I think your right. I think where the 'muddy' water enters this pure life giving stream is at the point of understanding who the "Christ" is. I think that we would all find that there are varying beliefs of just who He is. And if that were so, then it is no wonder why we cannot find common ground on what the law is.

Yes, that point is correct.

We see an example of those who touch that ark unworthily here:

2 Corinthians 11:4 "For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him."

These ones promoting their false perceptions of Christ sincerely believe they do
represent the true Christ. But in reality they have climbed up another way.

Matthew 7:15-23 describes them, also. Their teachings they do not percieve to be "works of iniquity" but they are because as you say, they 'muddy' the pure teachings of Christ so that they become as poluted of wormwood to men.

And it is so subtle that they think the true disciples of Christ are the ones doing what they are the real ones doing.

That is a good reason to cast out pride and humble ourselves so that we may be taught.

Such are the ones that hurl their self-righteous condemnations telling true disciples that they are condemned to hell. A true minister of Christ would only describe a class of persons that way but never say that of an individual who they have no way to know what is happening in their heart and whether they may yet repent.

 

[Nathan]

There are some that mistakenly believe that Christ did away with the Law of God in favor of grace. I think most realize that is not so. I am going to make some straight comments and see how they sit with those of you before I offer their scriptural support.

(1) Christ only did away with the hand written document consisting of decrees that was written against the flesh.

I think I know what your saying, but maybe you have this statement backwards?

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

This statement by Paul suggests that when you are not being led by the Spirit, then you are in fact under the law. Therefore, the hand written document of decrees are still in full effect for the flesh.

But then this takes on another need of clarity. What law do we speak of? Surely Paul is not speaking of the law of sacrifices.

(2) The actual Law of God is spiritual and can only be kept spiritually.

The Law of God is also physical in its appearance/fruit. When speaking with my grandmother on this very subject she asked me "ok, so how do these things show themselves in your life?". The point being that what you believe will always show forth in actions. James makes this clear.

(3) When we try to bring that Law into the flesh by letter the Law becomes weak by the flesh and we corrupt that Law.

The Law is not weak. We cannot make it weak. We cannot corrupt the Law.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
It is perfect. If it is perfect, it cannot be corrupt. We are weak in the flesh, therefore the law shows its perfect statues even more, and the more it shows forth the perfect, the more corrupt we become.

(4) One is not under that Old hand written Law only if they walk by spirit so as to try not to sin.

I think I understand what you are trying to get at here. And maybe we are 'mincing' words, undoubtedly misunderstanding each other?

When walking in the Spirit we definitely do walk in the freedom from the 'religious' aspects of the law as they apply to the flesh. Instead of focusing on the ordinances and the fruit of righteousness, we seek the nourishment that comes from the root and the 'heart' of the matter. When this happens, the fruit born of this desire manifests itself in freedom, but also can be 'tested' if held to the perfect law of God.

When a brother is angry and we do not get angry in return, but rather seek to comfort him and encourage him, not seeking our own life but wanting to give out. Then we see the fruit of love appear. And through this fruit we see that we have done the right thing, because to get angry back would be murder in ones heart. Did we seek this according to the outworking of the law? No. We sought it by the leading of the Spirit and the Spirit will never lead contrary to Gods Law. This is how we can 'test' the Spirits.

1Jo 3:18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

(5) Whether or not one observes that Old hand written Law knowingly, anyone who walks after the flesh and sins uncaringly has put their own self back under that Law and that Law yet judges them.

I think that the above beliefs include this in with them. If not, I can address it seperately. Even if one was to 'observe' it does not mean that they are keeping it. When you keep it, you will observe it.
]

 

[Who Says]

I think I know what your saying, but maybe you have this statement backwards?

Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

This statement by Paul suggests that when you are not being led by the Spirit, then you are in fact under the law. Therefore, the hand written document of decrees are still in full effect for the flesh.

Yes, I agree with you. That is exactly how I understand it. But I am also saying that if at any point we cease walking by spirit we reinstate that hand written document against ourselves.

But then this takes on another need of clarity. What law do we speak of? Surely Paul is not speaking of the law of sacrifices.

Again we agree. Those are fulfilled in Christ and in those in Christ (as are many aspects of that written Law), not set aside.

The Law of God is also physical in its appearance/fruit. When speaking with my grandmother on this very subject she asked me "ok, so how do these things show themselves in your life?". The point being that what you believe will always show forth in actions. James makes this clear.

Again we agree. This is indeed what Jesus told the Pharisees about making the inside of the cup and platter clean that the outside might become clean. Paul describes it this way: Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you."

The Law is not weak. We cannot make it weak. We cannot corrupt the Law.

Psa 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul; the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple;
It is perfect. If it is perfect, it cannot be corrupt. We are weak in the flesh, therefore the law shows its perfect statues even more, and the more it shows forth the perfect, the more corrupt we become.

I never said the Law is not perfect. I merely am looking at from Paul's angle and using his words there: Romans 8:3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

I think I understand what you are trying to get at here. And maybe we are 'mincing' words, undoubtedly misunderstanding each other?

That is very perceptive of you. You seem to be well on key.

When walking in the Spirit we definitely do walk in the freedom from the 'religious' aspects of the law as they apply to the flesh. Instead of focusing on the ordinances and the fruit of righteousness, we seek the nourishment that comes from the root and the 'heart' of the matter. When this happens, the fruit born of this desire manifests itself in freedom, but also can be 'tested' if held to the perfect law of God.

When a brother is angry and we do not get angry in return, but rather seek to comfort him and encourage him, not seeking our own life but wanting to give out. Then we see the fruit of love appear. And through this fruit we see that we have done the right thing, because to get angry back would be murder in ones heart. Did we seek this according to the outworking of the law? No. We sought it by the leading of the Spirit and the Spirit will never lead contrary to Gods Law. This is how we can 'test' the Spirits.

1Jo 3:18 Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth. By this we shall know that we are of the truth and reassure our heart before him; for whenever our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and he knows everything. Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; and whatever we ask we receive from him, because we keep his commandments and do what pleases him. And this is his commandment, that we believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ and love one another, just as he has commanded us. Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us. Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

Very well stated. Excellent clarity!

I think that the above beliefs include this in with them. If not, I can address it seperately. Even if one was to 'observe' it does not mean that they are keeping it. When you keep it, you will observe it.
]

Again I agree, to observe by its spirit which is really summed up in God's perfect love which we are trying to perfect in ourselves with His help.

You and I are very much in agreement. I feel that some of the other discussions while containing a measure of accuracy may be tending to over complicate what I see as really a simple thing.

There is great value in looking at the different physical emblems under that Old Law if we keep in mind that they prefigure things fulfilled in Christ and in many ways in those in Christ.

Romans 8:4 "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

Romans 10:4 "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

As we perfect our image of Christ (2 Corinthians 3:18 "But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.") we return the image we bear of God back to the glory it shined of God before sin.

 

[Who Says]

Where my heart bears sadness (much like the scroll that John was told to eat which became both bitter and sweat to his stomach) is that people have been conditioned to see certain things as stone written judgments against others if they be shown in any way to be doing certain things. So they shut us down as we try to show them what they are doing as they perceive us to be condemning them.

For example:There was the question asked in another thread, "Can those who receive the Mark of the Beast be forgiven."

Most people think that it cannot be repented and forgiven. But it can. Look at the sins of Manasseh the king. 2 Chronicles 33:1 "Manasseh was twelve years old when he began to reign, and he reigned fifty and five years in Jerusalem:
2 But did that which was evil in the sight of the LORD, like unto the abominations of the heathen, whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel."

2 Chronicles 33:9 "So Manasseh made Judah and the inhabitants of Jerusalem to err, and to do worse than the heathen, whom the LORD had destroyed before the children of Israel."

But look at the end of the matter when Manasseh repented: 2 Chronicles 33:12 "And when he was in affliction, he besought the LORD his God, and humbled himself greatly before the God of his fathers,
13 And prayed unto him: and he was intreated of him, and heard his supplication, and brought him again to Jerusalem into his kingdom. Then Manasseh knew that the LORD he was God."

We cannot go around telling people they are condemned. We should not present things in such a way that makes them believe that if we have to bring to their attention they are dangerously close or in measure doing such things it is like we are saying they are condemned. Fear stops up ears.

We have been told over and over that it is love that fulfills the Law.

1 John 4:18 "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love."

Such is the folly of making people feel that the things they do without understanding what they do is by itself a proof that they are condemned.

It is not our place to judge but to love. And if we loved as God loves to dispel people's fear of our looking down on them, more of them would be willing to hear us and allow us to help them.

This is the Law.

 

[Elijah674]

'Such are the ones that hurl their self-righteous condemnations telling true disciples that they are condemned to hell. A true minister of Christ would only describe a class of persons that way but never say that of an individual who they have no way to know what is happening in their heart and whether they may yet repent.'

---Elijah here:
I like that, no names. Nor by me either!;) Yet, that still seems like a real good judgement from this end, and that covers all posters, huh? (or just some??)

But one question for the originator of the thread, OK? And that is for an honest 'straight forward' answer to the bold letters by the compilars of the K.J. Bible about theses ones of Rev. 17:1-5, (No names) are they to be called.. & can we call them Christians folds, when Inspiration calls them the abomination of the earth? (the question is not about there being Christians inside of the yoked membership! and that was highlighted because you know what will even now be said, huh?)

OK: To stay on the subject of 'The Law of God -Law of Moses -The Law'. The point Nat, of all of my postings is simple, IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS!

The MOTIVE IS THE BORN AGAIN HEART or the hearts that never needed to be reborn. These have been created & recreated to LOVE OUR MASTER! They need NO Law to condemn then, yet, it is still there for the End Result that could & will come with total freedom!

And NEVER have 'i' thought to know another 'personal' heart relationship with Christ. (John 10:16 + Rev. 18:4)
Yet, NEVER COULD 'i' CALL THE ONES OF Rev. 17:1-5 [[[FOLDS]]] Christian ones & TRUELY Love them or Christ! The issue is that there are 'some' of Christ's very own there still in ignorance, who must leave or will eternally be lost wnen He comes.

SO: We are talking of LOVE??? (without Law???) One claiming love for Christ & His.. 'MY PEOPLE' without WARNING THEM is nothing more than the SIN OF OMISSION! [Lukewarm at best!] And Nate, Christ documents what the final punishment will be for these ones in Luke 12:47-48. (they are the very worst kind.. He indeed does documents)

Then you do see that CHRIST IS TO BE OUR TOTAL [LOVED] [MOTIVE] REASON FOR SERVICE, ...ALL OF IT!! (Mercy Seat! Eternal Rev. 14:6 Gospel)

And LOVE with NO Law?? There are NO Such Truths! The Word ITSELF is all Grace & Law of the Godheads 'EPISTLE' Love Letter to us. 2 Cor. 3:3

--Elijah

 

[Nathan]

Love does fulfill the law. But it does NOT replace it. Love fulfills it because it walks in the light of the written letter, not because it puts it aside. We KNOW we are loving when we do NOT hate, lie, steal, murder, etc. And so we KNOW we love God WHEN we walk acording to His commands.

There is a reason why the two different places the 'law', as it has been so deemed, have two different words describing what was placed there. There are different words used for what was placed on the side of the ark, but mostly it was called the "law".

What was placed inside the ark are called "testimony", "witnesses", and "word". Why? Because just as a 'witness' test-ifies of the things they have seen and heard, so the "ten words" testifiy and witness of the truth in us. If our heart is set against the law of God, it shows forth in our actions. If our heart is in love with the law of God, it will show forth.

When we 'replace' or alter or even "cover", the law with something we have deemed "better" or anything else, then we change the witness of what the truth is. All it takes is one change to corrupt the whole law. Yet it is not the law that is corrupt, it is the law in US that is corrupt. The law stands as it is, the witnesses have NOT changed. They will be precisely what we are weighed against. It is then we will give an account for the deeds done. Yet the righteousness of Christ will be imputed for our lack of.

There will be many stand and say they rely on "faith", but have willfully neglected the testimony of the law. Why did the Nation of Israel not obtain righteousness? Because they kept the law? No. They did not obtain it because they did not seek it by faith. Faith that says it is impossible for ME to be good enough, but He was and is. And because He was, I know have been set free from the power of it and can live righteously and holy before God. But this power only comes through faith. And the faith only comes because I believe Gods commands are holy and just and everlasting.

 

[Nathan]

'Such are the ones that hurl their self-righteous condemnations telling true disciples that they are condemned to hell. A true minister of Christ would only describe a class of persons that way but never say that of an individual who they have no way to know what is happening in their heart and whether they may yet repent.'

---Elijah here:
I like that, no names. Nor by me either!;) Yet, that still seems like a real good judgement from this end, and that covers all posters, huh? (or just some??)

But one question for the originator of the thread, OK? And that is for an honest 'straight forward' answer to the bold letters by the compilars of the K.J. Bible about theses ones of Rev. 17:1-5, (No names) are they to be called.. & can we call them Christians folds, when Inspiration calls them the abomination of the earth? (the question is not about there being Christians inside of the yoked membership! and that was highlighted because you know what will even now be said, huh?)

OK: To stay on the subject of 'The Law of God -Law of Moses -The Law'. The point Nat, of all of my postings is simple, IF YE LOVE ME KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS!

The MOTIVE IS THE BORN AGAIN HEART or the hearts that never needed to be reborn. These have been created & recreated to LOVE OUR MASTER! They need NO Law to condemn then, yet, it is still there for the End Result that could & will come with total freedom!

And NEVER have 'i' thought to know another 'personal' heart relationship with Christ. (John 10:16 + Rev. 18:4)
Yet, NEVER COULD 'i' CALL THE ONES OF Rev. 17:1-5 [[[FOLDS]]] Christian ones & TRUELY Love them or Christ! The issue is that there are 'some' of Christ's very own there still in ignorance, who must leave or will eternally be lost wnen He comes.

SO: We are talking of LOVE??? (without Law???) One claiming love for Christ & His.. 'MY PEOPLE' without WARNING THEM is nothing more than the SIN OF OMISSION! [Lukewarm at best!] And Nate, Christ documents what the final punishment will be for these ones in Luke 12:47-48. (they are the very worst kind.. He indeed does documents)

Then you do see that CHRIST IS TO BE OUR TOTAL [LOVED] [MOTIVE] REASON FOR SERVICE, ...ALL OF IT!! (Mercy Seat! Eternal Rev. 14:6 Gospel)

And LOVE with NO Law?? There are NO Such Truths! The Word ITSELF is all Grace & Law of the Godheads 'EPISTLE' Love Letter to us. 2 Cor. 3:3

--Elijah

No. We cannot call them Christian folds. Although they do have some called ones in them. There is ONLY one fold. That is of those who love God, keep His commandments and the Faith of Christ. Revelation cannot be more clear to this very truth.

 

[Who Says]

Love does fulfill the law. But it does NOT replace it. Love fulfills it because it walks in the light of the written letter, not because it puts it aside. We KNOW we are loving when we do NOT hate, lie, steal, murder, etc. And so we KNOW we love God WHEN we walk acording to His commands.

There is a reason why the two different places the 'law', as it has been so deemed, have two different words describing what was placed there. There are different words used for what was placed on the side of the ark, but mostly it was called the "law".

What was placed inside the ark are called "testimony", "witnesses", and "word". Why? Because just as a 'witness' test-ifies of the things they have seen and heard, so the "ten words" testifiy and witness of the truth in us. If our heart is set against the law of God, it shows forth in our actions. If our heart is in love with the law of God, it will show forth.

When we 'replace' or alter or even "cover", the law with something we have deemed "better" or anything else, then we change the witness of what the truth is. All it takes is one change to corrupt the whole law. Yet it is not the law that is corrupt, it is the law in US that is corrupt. The law stands as it is, the witnesses have NOT changed. They will be precisely what we are weighed against. It is then we will give an account for the deeds done. Yet the righteousness of Christ will be imputed for our lack of.

There will be many stand and say they rely on "faith", but have willfully neglected the testimony of the law. Why did the Nation of Israel not obtain righteousness? Because they kept the law? No. They did not obtain it because they did not seek it by faith. Faith that says it is impossible for ME to be good enough, but He was and is. And because He was, I know have been set free from the power of it and can live righteously and holy before God. But this power only comes through faith. And the faith only comes because I believe Gods commands are holy and just and everlasting.

Summing that up, they established their own form of righteousness as apposed to submitting to God's righteousness. (Romans 10:1-4) Having rejected Christ who is the very light shined to us of God's righteousness they were unable to see but their own version of God's righteousness.

On another thread a person asked, "which is correct, 'We believe Christ' or "We believe IN Christ'?

I answered that We must believe IN Christ, but that does not simply mean believing he is Christ. It means that we submit to containing all that we believe within the parameters of what Christ believes and we do not believe outside of what he believes. And if a person really believes something that belief produces fruitage in them. Thus we will be seen to be transforming and growing in our image of Christ. He being the unblemished image of God we thus cleanse the image we bear of God to return it to God's glory as it was before sin.

Now in this case if we believed our version of what seems to us to be right outside of what Christ shows us is right then we may well be found guilty of doing things Christ hates as lawlessness. We would not really be conforming our image of God faith to faith to the image Christ bears of God.

Similarly, perfected love does completely fulfill God's Law as it would never violate God's Law. John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

John 14:24 "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

To the degree that we sin we have not yet been made perfect in love. We yet have plenty of work to do conforming ourselves to Christ's image.

For now we discipline our flesh by law but our spirit through faith. I think that is what Paul meant here: Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Of course Paul has assumed for our benefit the position of the man who has just come to Christ. As we mature in Christ we grow ever more toward freedom from law as we mature, afforded freedom from the penalty of the Law by grace so that we are able to do this.

Penny for your thoughts? I am admittedly a bit fuzzy on that last point.

We do see that Paul shows the man maturing in Christ in chapter 8.

 

[Who Says]

No. We cannot call them Christian folds. Although they do have some called ones in them. There is ONLY one fold. That is of those who love God, keep His commandments and the Faith of Christ. Revelation cannot be more clear to this very truth.

Yes, that is a touchy situation. God is yet calling ones out of it though so it must be yet a part of God's field. It is largely bundles of tares but wheat is yet potentially to be found entangled amidst it. I think for the sake of those wheat-like ones we need to season our words with salt as it befits love. This requires maturity on our part.

Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee."

Now if that restraint is to be shown the devil how ought we to speak carefully to those we are in no way able to judge as individuals?

 

[Nathan]

Here is a bit of 'trivia' for all. What is the very center of the "Word of God" as we have it in written form? Right. Psalm 119.

176 verses long, it is also the longest chapter in the Bible. Guess what it deals with IN ITS ENTIRETY. Give up? The Law, the Statues, the Commandments, the Word, the Rules, the Teaching, the Way.

Over and over. Verse by verse. But show me ONCE, just ONE TIME, where the writer declares righteousness from keeping it. He states time after time that he loves the law, he keeps the law, he delights in the law, every which way he can put it. Even stating that there is freedom in following the law! Huh?? And we say that there is slavery in it?

NLT verse 44-45
I will keep on obeying your law forever and forever. I will walk in freedom, for I have devoted myself to your commandments.

And where does he acknowledge righteousness comes from?

Psa 119:40-42 Behold, I long for your precepts; in your righteousness give me life! Let your steadfast love come to me, O LORD, your salvation according to your promise; then shall I have an answer for him who taunts me, for I trust in your word.

Psa 119:49-51 Remember your word to your servant, in which you have made me hope. This is my comfort in my affliction, that your promise gives me life. The insolent utterly deride me, but I do not turn away from your law.

Psa 119:81 My soul longs for your salvation; I hope in your word.

Psa 119:88 In your steadfast love give me life, that I may keep the testimonies of your mouth.

Psa 119:123 My eyes long for your salvation and for the fulfillment of your righteous promise.

Psa 119:146 I call to you; save me, that I may observe your testimonies.

Psa 119:166 I hope for your salvation, O LORD, and I do your commandments.

Psa 119:176 I have gone astray like a lost sheep; seek your servant, for I do not forget your commandments.

You wont find the writer, which can be very hard to refute is David, ever say that salvation comes from obeying and keeping the commands of God. Yet He is the only person who we find has the testimony of having a heart after God's own heart.

And do you think that the law is only for the times before Christ? How many times do you think that it is stated the law lasts forever?

This chapter blew me away when I read it. I had never read it in the light I now walk in. I suppose many still have eyes darkened to the depth of love portrayed here. I was dumbfounded when I heard someone trying to bypass what was being said in context, and apply an 'addition' of including the whole of God's word in this chapter. While I believe it can be applied in that manner, it does not negate that the person writting this was SPECIFICALLY talking about the first 5 books of the Bible. NOT the whole thing.

Why it is we read passages like these and then turn away and say it is no more, is completely beyond me. We CAN keep His Law. We CHOOSE not too. And then are presumptuous to say that our 'faith' will cover it. Or that God's "grace" is powerful enough to wipe out sin against us, while at the same saying its not powerful enough to lead us in the way of righteousness according to His law???

Psa 119:18-19 Open my eyes, that I may behold wondrous things out of your law. I am a sojourner on the earth; hide not your commandments from me!

Psa 119:28-29 My soul melts away for sorrow; strengthen me according to your word! Put false ways far from me and graciously teach me your law!

Grace huh?? Maybe after we first understand who the Christ is, the Messiah of the OT, then we might could transfer over and understand what grace really is.

God Help us ALL.

 

[Nathan]

Of course Paul has assumed for our benefit the position of the man who has just come to Christ. As we mature in Christ we grow ever more toward freedom from law as we mature, afforded freedom from the penalty of the Law by grace so that we are able to do this.

Penny for your thoughts? I am admittedly a bit fuzzy on that last point.

You give me a nickle and I'll give you two cents back...;)

We never grow 'free' from the law. The law stands as it is. We simply grow closer to Christ and are conformed into His image. When we do that, the law simple testifies to our Christ-likeness.

We have been given the gift of eternal forgiveness of sins, which the law testifies we have done. So in that regard, we are free from the penalty of those sins. But that does not mean that the law is still not there. Grace is the power to save us from sins AND to empower us to not sin.

Sin is missing the mark. The mark has NEVER changed. This whole idea of different 'dispensations' where God has these 'different' ways of people entering the kingdom, is pure nonsense. Read the whole chapter of Hebrews 11. It clearly states that those even before the law was given, did not receive the promise apart from us. One God, one way, one Lord, one Savior.