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Bible Study The Law of God - The Law of Moses - The Law

Lets move on ahead and tackle some of the passages where we do get the idea that the law is only for 'sinners', and we are somehow "immune" to it.

1Ti 1:8-9 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers...

What say ye to this? Remember...context.
 
1 John 5:3 "for this is the love of God, that His commands we may keep, and His commands are not burdensome"

That is what I see born of love as David there shows at Psalms 119.

We do not void the law through faith, we establish it.

When Paul speaks about us not being under law he means that hand written law with its provisions to punish us. That law had to sit on us with the weight of the threat of punishment to move us to hear it.

Taking that out of the way does not do away with God's Eternal Law. Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

But we must understand that God's eternal law was not meant to have to punish sin and rebellion against it. It was meant as a way of regulating all things cooperating together in unifying spirit of love. The punishment part was the unnatural addon and that only justice on God's part as we chose to sin making it necessary for God to punish.

Our progressing to freedom from law that Paul speaks of is that external regulation of law. We get free from external regulation by becoming internally regulated as God's Law becomes written in the tablet of our heart. The closer we grow to that the less we need those laws spelled out externally for us.

Along the way there God does discipline but with grace. If He disciplined us according to the letter of that Old handwritten Law it would only do as it did, kill us.

David knew God would not despise a contrite heart. David knew (Psalms 103:10) "He hath not dealt with us after our sins; nor rewarded us according to our iniquities."

And so we see David pray Psalms 109:26 "Help me, O LORD my God: O save me according to thy mercy:"

Psalms 119:41 "Let thy mercies come also unto me, O LORD, even thy salvation, according to thy word."

Psalms 119:58 "I intreated thy favour with my whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word."

Psalms 119:76 "Let, I pray thee, thy merciful kindness be for my comfort, according to thy word unto thy servant."

Psalms 119:124 "Deal with thy servant according unto thy mercy, and teach me thy statutes." (In other words, Please do not give up on me.) Psalms 119:159 "Consider how I love thy precepts: quicken me, O LORD, according to thy lovingkindness."

So yes, you are right that the Laws of God's righteousness remain.


I love that 119th Psalms. During my most troubled moments the 119th Psalms was my inspiration to trust in God's mercy and appreciate his discipline of me.

Psalms 119:67 "Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word."

Psalms 119:71 "It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes."

Psalms 119:92-93 "Unless thy law had been my delights, I should then have perished in mine affliction.
93 I will never forget thy precepts: for with them thou hast quickened me."


Psalms 119:103-104 "How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!
104 Through thy precepts I get understanding: therefore I hate every false way."
 
Nathan said:
Lets move on ahead and tackle some of the passages where we do get the idea that the law is only for 'sinners', and we are somehow "immune" to it.

1Ti 1:8-9 Now we know that the law is good, if one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who strike their fathers and mothers, for murderers...

What say ye to this? Remember...context.
Click to expand...

I think I just explained that the Law of punishments is an unnatural addon. It is not our natural state to be corrupted by sin rendering us unable to keep God's Eternal Laws which are all perfect love and need no punishment mentioned within.
 
Nathan said:
You give me a nickle and I'll give you two cents back...;)

We never grow 'free' from the law. The law stands as it is. We simply grow closer to Christ and are conformed into His image. When we do that, the law simple testifies to our Christ-likeness.

We have been given the gift of eternal forgiveness of sins, which the law testifies we have done. So in that regard, we are free from the penalty of those sins. But that does not mean that the law is still not there. Grace is the power to save us from sins AND to empower us to not sin.

Sin is missing the mark. The mark has NEVER changed. This whole idea of different 'dispensations' where God has these 'different' ways of people entering the kingdom, is pure nonsense. Read the whole chapter of Hebrews 11. It clearly states that those even before the law was given, did not receive the promise apart from us. One God, one way, one Lord, one Savior.
Click to expand...

We grow free from the need to be regulated by external law. That is a point that is commonly misunderstood when Paul speaks as I just did.

We are made free from sin, thus we are made free of that external law which was given for sin as a hand written document consisting of decrees written against our flesh.

We do that by returning to the true image of God as we were meant, reflecting God's glory from within. That law is then freedom to us. That law is then us. We are then God's righteousness existing as a praise to him, his laws written on the tablets of our hearts.

Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)"

That is the freedom we are traveling toward by the cleansing in Christ conforming us to his image.
 
Who Says said:
We grow free from the need to be regulated by external law. That is a point that is commonly misunderstood when Paul speaks as I just did.

We are made free from sin, thus we are made free of that external law which was given for sin as a hand written document consisting of decrees written against our flesh.

We do that by returning to the true image of God as we were meant, reflecting God's glory from within. That law is then freedom to us. That law is then us. We are then God's righteousness existing as a praise to him, his laws written on the tablets of our hearts.

Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)"

That is the freedom we are traveling toward by the cleansing in Christ conforming us to his image.
Click to expand...

This is what I have been trying to say. Jesus came to fulfill (complete) the law, He is now our Law, written upon our hearts, we are to "Love the Lord with all of our hearts, mind and soul and our neighbors as yourself", if we follow this we are not going to go murder someone (as I just wrote in another post).

If you try to keep one of these laws and break it, you are guilty of breaking them all.

We are not UNDER the law, as you have said we ARE the law, and that is the freedom we do have in Christ.

The Israelites could not even keep the law, if so, then there is no need for Christ, if so they would not have to continuely give offerings of sacrifice.

Christ is our Ark, we can be made complete, perfect and holy in Him - not by being under the law.

peace -
 
Who Says said:
We grow free from the need to be regulated by external law. That is a point that is commonly misunderstood when Paul speaks as I just did.

We are made free from sin, thus we are made free of that external law which was given for sin as a hand written document consisting of decrees written against our flesh.

We do that by returning to the true image of God as we were meant, reflecting God's glory from within. That law is then freedom to us. That law is then us. We are then God's righteousness existing as a praise to him, his laws written on the tablets of our hearts.

Romans 2:14 "For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)"

That is the freedom we are traveling toward by the cleansing in Christ conforming us to his image.
Click to expand...

I think we understand each other. You have put it in words that do ring true. Both posts I do believe touch the heart of the matter.
 
Nathan said:
I think we understand each other. You have put it in words that do ring true. Both posts I do believe touch the heart of the matter.
Click to expand...

If you agree with Who Says post, also, and we all believe this, the law is in our hearts, we obey His Word, then why am I the only one who is told they are going to hell? I am told I will never understand the Word, serious??? Am I missing something here?
 
Rockie said:
This is what I have been trying to say. Jesus came to fulfill (complete) the law, He is now our Law, written upon our hearts, we are to "Love the Lord with all of our hearts, mind and soul and our neighbors as yourself", if we follow this we are not going to go murder someone (as I just wrote in another post).

If you try to keep one of these laws and break it, you are guilty of breaking them all.

We are not UNDER the law, as you have said we ARE the law, and that is the freedom we do have in Christ.

The Israelites could not even keep the law, if so, then there is no need for Christ, if so they would not have to continuely give offerings of sacrifice.

Christ is our Ark, we can be made complete, perfect and holy in Him - not by being under the law.

peace -
Click to expand...

So was David lying when he stated he kept the law? Where this notion that they could not keep the law came from is Satanic in nature. Was Paul lying when he stated he kept the law, even talking down someone when they were breaking it?

Acts 23
1 And looking intently at the council, Paul said, "Brothers, I have lived my life before God in all good conscience up to this day."
2 And the high priest Ananias commanded those who stood by him to strike him on the mouth.
3 Then Paul said to him, "God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting to judge me according to the law, and yet contrary to the law you order me to be struck?

You have said yourself that the 10 are now 2. This is not the case. They can be understood in two commands, but they were not replaced by them. Therefore, the law as it was written still stands.

The lies about replacement theology come about because sure enough all the laws seem to fit into two. And they do, however, there is that "pesky" 4th command that people want to change and make different. Anywhere from saying the day has been moved, to saying that Jesus has become the day. All the while neglecting the simple truths found in the very first book of the Bible, hundreds of years before the "law" was given.
 
Rockie said:
If you agree with Who Says post, also, and we all believe this, the law is in our hearts, we obey His Word, then why am I the only one who is told they are going to hell? I am told I will never understand the Word, serious??? Am I missing something here?
Click to expand...

I have NEVER stated that you were going to hell! Rockie you have a good grip on Scripture, better than most guys your age. But just because I agree the law is in my heart, and that I fulfill it, and also bring my body into subjection of it; does not mean that I believe what you state. I still think your on error.

Now this is because I have spoken with you a whole lot more than this other person.
 
Nathan said:
So was David lying when he stated he kept the law? Where this notion that they could not keep the law came from is Satanic in nature. Was Paul lying when he stated he kept the law, even talking down someone when they were breaking it?

Acts 23
1 And looking intently at the council, Paul said, "Brothers, I have lived my life before God in all good conscience up to this day."
2 And the high priest Ananias commanded those who stood by him to strike him on the mouth.
3 Then Paul said to him, "God is going to strike you, you whitewashed wall! Are you sitting to judge me according to the law, and yet contrary to the law you order me to be struck?

You have said yourself that the 10 are now 2. This is not the case. They can be understood in two commands, but they were not replaced by them. Therefore, the law as it was written still stands.

The lies about replacement theology come about because sure enough all the laws seem to fit into two. And they do, however, there is that "pesky" 4th command that people want to change and make different. Anywhere from saying the day has been moved, to saying that Jesus has become the day. All the while neglecting the simple truths found in the very first book of the Bible, hundreds of years before the "law" was given.
Click to expand...

Paul is simply having a clear conscience that the law written in his heart he has obeyed and he is rebuking people who have treated him unfairly, he is speaking to the jews, who kept the law, so who can be judged against the law, no one but Christ in us, He is our righteousness, and without Him we would and could not be obedient. It is Christ in us (our Ark, our Law) that remains obedient.

I do not even want to get into a Sabbath debate, I really do know who my Sabbath is. Why can't we keep every day holy? Why can't we rest in Christ instead of a day?
 
Nathan said:
I have NEVER stated that you were going to hell! Rockie you have a good grip on Scripture, better than most guys your age. But just because I agree the law is in my heart, and that I fulfill it, and also bring my body into subjection of it; does not mean that I believe what you state. I still think your on error.

Now this is because I have spoken with you a whole lot more than this other person.
Click to expand...

Seriously, I am taking a chance by even posting in this thread because I will be told I am going to hell in a short while AND that I do not know the Word. The 7th Day Adventist are on the prowl. :yes No offense if you are one.
 
I do believe we grow free from the external regulation, but it's only because it is then "internally" regulated. This is pretty basic terms, and while true, can be misunderstood.

The external "regulation" still exists to be a witness when we stray from it. But when we mature in Christ we come to a point of walking in His law that is from the heart. Until then, the law still shows us the way. We know when we have come to that point when fear no longer remains. Why fear? Because the requirements of the law produce it in our flesh.

Out of a pure heart of love we walk according to His commandments. This is the mark and measure of our faith, even as Christ walked Himself. But if we believe His commands to "hard" or "burdensome", we will never come to this point in our walk. And could indeed fall if we continuously spurn His discipline that is there to bring us back into line with His will.
 
Nathan said:
I do believe we grow free from the external regulation, but it's only because it is then "internally" regulated. This is pretty basic terms, and while true, can be misunderstood.

The external "regulation" still exists to be a witness when we stray from it. But when we mature in Christ we come to a point of walking in His law that is from the heart. Until then, the law still shows us the way. We know when we have come to that point when fear no longer remains. Why fear? Because the requirements of the law produce it in our flesh.

Out of a pure heart of love we walk according to His commandments. This is the mark and measure of our faith, even as Christ walked Himself. But if we believe His commands to "hard" or "burdensome", we will never come to this point in our walk. And could indeed fall if we continuously spurn His discipline that is there to bring us back into line with His will.
Click to expand...

Yet, the two commandments I have given you sums up all of these things, it's not like a person, such as myself, purposely goes out to break one of His laws. Why? Because God has placed it in my heart. Christ is in me, He is renewing my mind, I am conforming to His image, I do not want to break any of His laws, yet I do not have to think about His laws either because I am doing what He says for me to do. His Body is in the Word, doing His will, in the world, how much more simple is that? Yet, there are people telling us we need to be still under the law, when actually we are free in Christ.
We have freedom in Christ.
 
Rockie said:
Seriously, I am taking a chance by even posting in this thread because I will be told I am going to hell in a short while AND that I do not know the Word. The 7th Day Adventist are on the prowl. :yes No offense if you are one.
Click to expand...

No. I am not a 7th day Adventist.

Paul was clear that he had kept a clear conscience from his youth. He was a part of the murder of Stephen. So he is either lying, or telling the truth. He is speaking the truth because he was zealous for the law of God even in his approval of the death of Stephen. But he still lacked the righteousness that only comes from Christ. The law he has a clear conscience of is the written law, because until that fateful day he had not Christ.

The Sabbath is another study. If one does not believe in the law as it stands then fleshing out about the Sabbath is of no use an a waste of time. Simply put, the Bible never says Christ IS the Sabbath. He is Lord of it. It is His day.
 
Rockie said:
Yet, the two commandments I have given you sums up all of these things, it's not like a person, such as myself, purposely goes out to break one of His laws. Why? Because God has placed it in my heart. Christ is in me, He is renewing my mind, I am conforming to His image, I do not want to break any of His laws, yet I do not have to think about His laws either because I am doing what He says for me to do. His Body is in the Word, doing His will, in the world, how much more simple is that? Yet, there are people telling us we need to be still under the law, when actually we are free in Christ.
We have freedom in Christ.
Click to expand...

So was David some kind of maniac for meditating on the law of God day and night. Yet you state you do not even have to think about them?
 
Nathan,
David had the written law, that was what he had to read.

We have the Word, that is what we should meditate on, we read, study, pray, teach, talk, and walk the Word.

Please tell me you at least agree with this?
 
Who Says said:
Summing that up, they established their own form of righteousness as apposed to submitting to God's righteousness. (Romans 10:1-4) Having rejected Christ who is the very light shined to us of God's righteousness they were unable to see but their own version of God's righteousness.

On another thread a person asked, "which is correct, 'We believe Christ' or "We believe IN Christ'?

I answered that We must believe IN Christ, but that does not simply mean believing he is Christ. It means that we submit to containing all that we believe within the parameters of what Christ believes and we do not believe outside of what he believes. And if a person really believes something that belief produces fruitage in them. Thus we will be seen to be transforming and growing in our image of Christ. He being the unblemished image of God we thus cleanse the image we bear of God to return it to God's glory as it was before sin.

Now in this case if we believed our version of what seems to us to be right outside of what Christ shows us is right then we may well be found guilty of doing things Christ hates as lawlessness. We would not really be conforming our image of God faith to faith to the image Christ bears of God.

Similarly, perfected love does completely fulfill God's Law as it would never violate God's Law. John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

John 14:24 "He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me."

To the degree that we sin we have not yet been made perfect in love. We yet have plenty of work to do conforming ourselves to Christ's image.

For now we discipline our flesh by law but our spirit through faith. I think that is what Paul meant here: Romans 7:25 "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Of course Paul has assumed for our benefit the position of the man who has just come to Christ. As we mature in Christ we grow ever more toward freedom from law as we mature, afforded freedom from the penalty of the Law by grace so that we are able to do this.

Penny for your thoughts? I am admittedly a bit fuzzy on that last point.

We do see that Paul shows the man maturing in Christ in chapter 8.
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That is exactly what it is all about, going from NO Rom. 8:1's CONDEMNATION on to Rom. 8:14, that of being Led if we will be? into MATURE Sanctification! And the process is seen in Heb. 12:4-8, + verse 8 surely letting us know that we are free to 'flee' some 'sin of omission' chastisments that we do not want any part of. (tough love ones) Even 'required' Law keeping or portions of that Law! (James 2:8-12 comes to mind)

--Elijah

PS: And Rom. 2:13 has it like this.. 'For not the hearers of the law are just before God, [but the doers of the law shall be justified].'

But not all 10, huh Lord? just 9 will find us obedient, huh? And that will prove inmature! (and that is for another posting)
 
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